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Author Topic: Episode V: The Obama Strikes Back...  (Read 8697 times)
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #80 on: May 18, 2008, 08:23:46 PM »

Quote from: cheeba
Quote from: Autistic Angel
We are not discussing whether or not President Bush is evil, inhuman, or uncaring, cheeba.

Truly? You argue that he "allegedly" cried. You argue that he's the kind of person who would leave 150,000 troops stranded with no support.

No, George W. Bush said that he was the kind of person who would order troops to remain on duty Iraq whether congress continued funding or not.  I merely repeated it.

Maybe Bush was lying about his intention to leave U.S. troops in harm's way without necessary funding, and maybe he wasn't.  Either way, we don't need to discuss the quality of his moral character because it's already self-evident.

Quote from: cheeba
Quote from: Autistic Angel
This is very interesting.  You're arguing that the Bush administration really believed that Iraq had WMDs, justifying all their lies and coercion on the topic, and that's all okay with you because the WMDs were never that important?

Tell me, cheeba: under what circumstances would it *not* be acceptable to lie, coerce, or mislead?

Yep, that's pretty much what I'm arguing. Would I rather they have not lied? Perhaps. But I think we had legitimate reasons for going and that it was the right thing to do, so I understand the need to sell it. As far as what circumstances would it not be ok to lie, etc... I can't really answer that. Really I think it's most dependent on how blatant the lie is and whether the lie is proven and how much it sticks. For example, Clinton's lie was a lot more blatant and less subjective than Bush's lie.

Folks, I swear to God that cheeba and I do not know each other; we are not doing a comedy act here.  I couldn't make this stuff up.... icon_eek

-Autistic Angel
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Brendan
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« Reply #81 on: May 18, 2008, 09:19:04 PM »

I think it's fantastic that the answer to "Would I rather not have been lied to by my government [about the presence of weapons in Iraq, and, implicitly, the justification for killing tens of thousands of Iraqis, four thousand Americans, and spending between one and two trillion dollars]?" is "perhaps."

What more could we ask of cheeba?  I think the story is complete.
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cheeba
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« Reply #82 on: May 18, 2008, 09:41:40 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on May 18, 2008, 08:23:46 PM

Exactly where did he say he would leave troops there whether congress funded it or not? He said, "I fully understand they could try to stop me," Bush said of the Democrat-run Congress. "But I've made my decision, and we're going forward [with putting more troops into Iraq]." The article itself said what he was doing, "Digging in for confrontation, Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney say they will not budge from sending more U.S. troops to Iraq no matter how much Congress opposes it." They were fighting congress for funding. Not only did they get the money they needed for more troops, they got more money than they asked for from the democratic congress. So, apparently he fought very well.
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Folks, I swear to God that cheeba and I do not know each other; we are not doing a comedy act here.  I couldn't make this stuff up.... icon_eek
"Folks?" Who are you talking to? There are like 4 people reading this thread. Besides, you do realize that Clinton was impeached for his lie, right? What's happened to Bush?
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cheeba
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« Reply #83 on: May 18, 2008, 09:52:00 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on May 18, 2008, 09:19:04 PM

I think it's fantastic that the answer to "Would I rather not have been lied to by my government [about the presence of weapons in Iraq, and, implicitly, the justification for killing tens of thousands of Iraqis, four thousand Americans, and spending between one and two trillion dollars]?" is "perhaps."
The WMD argument was not the only one for the war. How many times do you need to be told that before it gets through? Hey Brendan? Yeah you know the Iraq war? It wasn't only about WMD's.

And would I rather not have been lied to? It doesn't matter if I would or not. If I say yes or no, that changes nothing.
Quote
What more could we ask of cheeba?  I think the story is complete.
Here you go needing to get personal again. It's amazing, I've pointed out your obvious flaws with arguing - that you get so wrapped up personally that you lose reason - yet you keep doing it every post. And yet again, you're totally wrong. But what more could we ask of Brendan?
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WalkingFumble
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« Reply #84 on: May 18, 2008, 10:04:23 PM »

if the war in iraq wasnt about WMDs, then why was that its selling point for going in?  and you cant say "cause of teh evidence", when the UN inspectors had no evidence.  we just made up our own.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB234/index.htm
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cheeba
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« Reply #85 on: May 18, 2008, 10:11:40 PM »

Quote from: WalkingFumble on May 18, 2008, 10:04:23 PM

if the war in iraq wasnt about WMDs, then why was that its selling point for going in?
It was not the only selling point.

Read here.
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cheeba
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« Reply #86 on: May 18, 2008, 10:25:36 PM »

Nice article arguing Congress shares responsibility for the Iraq war.
A guy who shares more of your (Brendan, Autistic Angel) views than mine saying Congress shares respnsibility.

Can find a lot more liberals who agree that Congress shares some responsibility for the Iraq war. I know Michael Moore said he couldn't vote for someone who voted for the war. Should I find all the sources? I'm sure you've seen them in all those liberal blogs you guys read.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2008, 10:35:54 PM by cheeba » Logged
WalkingFumble
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« Reply #87 on: May 18, 2008, 11:02:50 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on May 18, 2008, 10:11:40 PM

Quote from: WalkingFumble on May 18, 2008, 10:04:23 PM

if the war in iraq wasnt about WMDs, then why was that its selling point for going in?
It was not the only selling point.

Read here.

didnt say that was the only selling point.  you could add that "sadam helped with 9/11", but that isnt true.  forcing democracy in the middle east?  wont work.  seriously, we cant police the world and take out every dictator we dont like.
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cheeba
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« Reply #88 on: May 18, 2008, 11:28:12 PM »

Quote from: WalkingFumble on May 18, 2008, 11:02:50 PM

didnt say that was the only selling point.
Yes, you did. You used a singular: "its selling point."
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seriously, we cant police the world and take out every dictator we dont like.
You've obviously not seen Team America. (NSFW)
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Brendan
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« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2008, 12:37:44 AM »

More fantastic stuff from cheeba with his spasms of links to other people's rationales, some of which relate tangentially to his thirst for oil and Miley Cyrus, but none of which were the actual justification used to start the war.

One problem with the "ends justify the means" authoritarians are that they presume that it's possible to achieve their end.  If the goal is BMW dealerships in Iraq, and apparently it is, they don't care what investment of human lives and American resources it takes to get there.  Right-wing authoritarians are content to put their trust in The Leader, and don't question the Leader's conclusions, so we throw life after life into the meat grinder.  And it's all used to justify more deaths - because then they bleat "those people will have died in vain if we don't win!"  There is truly only one condition under which RWAs like cheeba would advocate pulling out of Iraq prior to the opening of the Baghdad Hard Rock Cafe:  attempting to pin responsibility for a "loss" to a Democratic President or the Iraqi army.  They're just running out the clock so that someone else has to clean up their mess.

Here's a bonus from cheeba's own link to the Stephen Walt piece:

Quote
The invasion of Iraq may be the greatest self-inflicted blunder in the history of U.S. foreign policy. The case for war rested on false information, dubious assumptions and mendacious analysis. Neoconservatives inside and outside the Bush administration persuaded the president, vice president, and the American people that Saddam was an imminent threat, that war would be easy and pay for itself, and that ousting him would bring far-reaching benefits to the region. They were wrong on all counts, and their responsibility for this catastrophe should not be forgotten.

Huh.
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Brendan
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« Reply #90 on: May 19, 2008, 12:48:28 AM »

Just thought of one other way the RWAs would lose interest in their war - bad news for doughy chickenhawks in their mid-thirties, there's no deferments after the age of twenty.

And last, a few other pieces of hilarity from cheeba:  his other link is to an op-ed partly written by self-serving war cheerleader Michael O'Hanlon, who works for the conservative Brookings Institution.  The op-ed was written months before Curveball was exposed by the Iraq Survey Group.  Strike eleven.

edit: condensing replies.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 01:41:32 AM by Brendan » Logged
cheeba
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« Reply #91 on: May 19, 2008, 02:39:49 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on May 19, 2008, 12:37:44 AM

More fantastic stuff from cheeba with his spasms of links to other people's rationales, some of which relate tangentially to his thirst for oil and Miley Cyrus, but none of which were the actual justification used to start the war.
So you'd rather I didn't link to people who argue that Congress bears some responsibility for the war? Interesting.
Quote
One problem with the "ends justify the means" authoritarians are that they presume that it's possible to achieve their end.  If the goal is BMW dealerships in Iraq, and apparently it is, they don't care what investment of human lives and American resources it takes to get there.  Right-wing authoritarians are content to put their trust in The Leader, and don't question the Leader's conclusions, so we throw life after life into the meat grinder.  And it's all used to justify more deaths - because then they bleat "those people will have died in vain if we don't win!"  There is truly only one condition under which RWAs like cheeba would advocate pulling out of Iraq prior to the opening of the Baghdad Hard Rock Cafe:  attempting to pin responsibility for a "loss" to a Democratic President or the Iraqi army.  They're just running out the clock so that someone else has to clean up their mess.
This whole paragraph is one big cluster fuck, dude. One sentence doesn't follow the other. And labeling me as a Right Wing Authoritarian is just more of your demonizing antics. It requires a belief in a super-strong authority figure in charge of the country, and if you had any sense at all you'd know that I'm arguing here for Congress to take a stronger role in the decision-making.
Quote
Here's a bonus from cheeba's own link to the Stephen Walt piece:
Quote
The invasion of Iraq may be the greatest self-inflicted blunder in the history of U.S. foreign policy. The case for war rested on false information, dubious assumptions and mendacious analysis. Neoconservatives inside and outside the Bush administration persuaded the president, vice president, and the American people that Saddam was an imminent threat, that war would be easy and pay for itself, and that ousting him would bring far-reaching benefits to the region. They were wrong on all counts, and their responsibility for this catastrophe should not be forgotten.
Huh.
What do you mean, "huh?" Did you not read my description? "A guy who shares more of your views than mine." You know what else he wrote?
Quote
Although primary responsibility for the war rests with Bush, Cheney, and the neoconservatives who conceived and sold it, other important U.S. institutions performed poorly as well. Congress never debated the war in a serious way and it continued to back Bush's policies long after their failure was apparent.
Remarkable, isn't it? Someone who you cannot make false, personally offensive and denigrating claims about because his position mirrors your own almost exactly, who thinks, like I do, that Congress shares some responsibility for the war.
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farley2k
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« Reply #92 on: May 19, 2008, 02:48:30 AM »

Lets all relax, take a deep breath. and cam down for the night. 

I am sitting here watching Indiana Jones: Raiders of the Lost Ark in prep for the new movie and I would be happier if there were no more reported posts about this thread.
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #93 on: May 19, 2008, 04:12:18 AM »

Quote from: DarkEL on May 17, 2008, 01:55:10 AM

Quote from: cheeba on May 17, 2008, 01:35:55 AM

And yes I'm willing to let them send thousands of Americans to their deaths and spend trillions of dollars (are you holding your pinkie to your mouth when you type that?) to do what I think is the right thing.

So if you really believe it's the right thing to do, then why don't you enlist?

Or is it only the right thing when you don't have to risk anything?


He can stop playing golf.slywink
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CSL
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« Reply #94 on: May 19, 2008, 09:19:43 AM »

It's like watching little children.
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cheeba
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« Reply #95 on: May 19, 2008, 09:30:17 AM »

Quote from: CSL on May 19, 2008, 09:19:43 AM

It's like watching little children.
Oh I agree, but it's fun posting and watching the opposition need so badly to personally insult me that they can't help themselves.
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ATB
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« Reply #96 on: May 19, 2008, 12:26:11 PM »

Brendan did indeed say he was exiting the direct interaction, but here he is 5 or 6 posts later still going at it..  Not that egging someone on is an admirable trait either Cheebs.

Regardless, I'm surprised that this thread isn't already locked.
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Knightshade Dragon
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« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2008, 01:16:21 PM »

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Regardless, I'm surprised that this thread isn't already locked.

SURPRISE!!

(seriously, this thread ceased to be on topic and now will cease to exist)
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