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Author Topic: Does anybody really think these bailouts will work?...  (Read 5974 times)
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Scuzz
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« on: January 29, 2009, 08:46:25 PM »

I have been watching the talking heads and listening to the radio and I am convinced we are just throwing away money. The right is screaming about the non-job oriented money being spent and the left is complaining that we aren't spending more and that we Obama is paying any attention at all to the GOP.

Things are going to get a hell of a lot worse. In my area (central california) they are talking 20% unemployment (currently 14%) and up to 500,000 acres not planted this year. We are talking depression here.
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Blackadar
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2009, 09:15:39 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on January 29, 2009, 08:46:25 PM

I have been watching the talking heads and listening to the radio and I am convinced we are just throwing away money. The right is screaming about the non-job oriented money being spent and the left is complaining that we aren't spending more and that we Obama is paying any attention at all to the GOP.

Things are going to get a hell of a lot worse. In my area (central california) they are talking 20% unemployment (currently 14%) and up to 500,000 acres not planted this year. We are talking depression here.

Well, if they measured unemployment the same way they did during the Great Depression, we're probably looking at a nationwide rate of 15-17% unemployment right now.

As far as the bailouts, I've been against them from the start because they didn't do anything to prop up the securities that caused the problem in the first place, nor did they actually help homeowners not default on their loans.  They were a horrid waste of money - a scam of the worst degree perpetrated on the US public in order to line the pockets of a certain few.  That's why they've had little to no impact - there was no oversight and no trickle down effect.

Now the stimulus package is different.  It's designed to get people more income to spend.  This is *very* necessary because for many americans, there's no wealth left.  To acquire goods and services, families made the decision to go to two incomes and women entered the workplace.  Then they cut into their savings rate in order to consume.  Then they started going into credit card debt in order to buy crap that is associated with wealth.  Then they tapped the credit in their homes in order to continue to spend.  That's why propping up the home market was necessary - and the failure to use the money to do that was one of the factors that made a bad economy a horrible one.  Now there's simply nothing left to tap - and in an economy where consumer spending makes up the large portion of the GDP, that's a horrifying thought.

Bush's economic policies have resulted in middle class wages actually declining during his administration.  To get this thing kick-started again, consumers have to start spending.  To do that, you have to get more money in people's pockets - that means jobs and that means widespread tax cuts.  That's where the new stimulus package comes into play - though I fear it's not enough.  We really need a new economic driver to replace the DOT COM boom of the 90s.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2009, 09:47:07 PM »

okay, i would go with a "jobs stimulus package" but only about 30-40% of this is designed for that. And many of these government jobs will take years to become reality without fastracking and no EIR's.

the package was full of fluff...50 million for the NEA

the demo's wanted money in their for family planning......
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2009, 09:58:25 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on January 29, 2009, 09:15:39 PM

that means jobs and that means widespread tax cuts. 

That's a leap of faith that not everybody is going to make with you.
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2009, 10:28:09 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on January 29, 2009, 09:47:07 PM

the package was full of fluff...50 million for the NEA

"Full of fluff," huh?  What percentage of 850 billion is 50 million? 

If your preferred criteria is "creates jobs," then you should be pleased by that particular line item anyway.

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The bill states that the money would be "distributed in direct grants to fund arts projects and activities which preserve jobs in the non-profit arts sector threatened by declines in philanthropic and other support during the current economic downturn."
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2009, 10:44:26 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on January 29, 2009, 10:28:09 PM

"Full of fluff," huh?  What percentage of 850 billion is 50 million? 
Poor logic. His citing of a single example of fluff does not mean he is saying that is the entirety of the fluff.
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Brendan
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2009, 10:57:13 PM »

Well, he has the opportunity to demonstrate his indepth knowledge by listing the remainder of fluff ostensibly contained within the bill.  I look forward to the effort.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2009, 11:08:35 PM »

I gave the example because I don't care about the government giving $20 to artists and it is just one example. I haven't got the entire list but who does...

Also you didn't question the fact that these jobs (construction mostly, from what i understand) funded thru the infrastructure section cannot occur for maybe up to five years until the plans/eir's are done. I don't argue this because I am anti-demo i argue it because it is fact. The government passing a bill doesn't instantly create jobs. Bridges and roads and whatever take time to plan, time to prepare for and then they will have to fight thru the EIR's before the work can be done. Now if they can fast track them, fine. But I don't see that happening on a wholesale basis.

Also, you attacked one line but waht of family planning. How did that fit in there? What, that way the poor have fewer mouths to feed?

PS...before you attack me on that one I am glad Obama is allowing stem cell research to expand...
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2009, 11:15:35 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on January 29, 2009, 11:08:35 PM

I haven't got the entire list but who does...

Man, who does?

I'll wait until you've read through it to comment on your non-sequiturs.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2009, 12:25:02 AM »

i'll have my staff read thru it and sometime around 2018 i should be able to tell you what it said.........smart ass.......... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 12:34:06 AM »

Quote from: Scuzz on January 30, 2009, 12:25:02 AM

i'll have my staff read thru it and sometime around 2018 i should be able to tell you what it said.........smart ass.......... Roll Eyes

I'm disheartened that we won't be getting further articulation of all of the fluff that you're complaining about.   It almost makes me think that you're repeating something you read elsewhere without doing any of your own research.  icon_neutral
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Blackadar
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2009, 12:54:25 AM »

Quote from: Scuzz on January 29, 2009, 11:08:35 PM

I gave the example because I don't care about the government giving $20 to artists and it is just one example. I haven't got the entire list but who does...

Also you didn't question the fact that these jobs (construction mostly, from what i understand) funded thru the infrastructure section cannot occur for maybe up to five years until the plans/eir's are done. I don't argue this because I am anti-demo i argue it because it is fact. The government passing a bill doesn't instantly create jobs. Bridges and roads and whatever take time to plan, time to prepare for and then they will have to fight thru the EIR's before the work can be done. Now if they can fast track them, fine. But I don't see that happening on a wholesale basis.

Also, you attacked one line but waht of family planning. How did that fit in there? What, that way the poor have fewer mouths to feed?

PS...before you attack me on that one I am glad Obama is allowing stem cell research to expand...

No, construction jobs don't have an instant return in jobs.  They do, however, have a fairly quick return in jobs and a long-term growth benefit.  Your State has dozens, hundreds, of infrastructure projects on the planning board in various states.  Many have already been planned, surveyed and just need the funding to get the go-ahead.  Funding these projects puts people across the country back to work in a relatively short amount of time in road widening and building, bridge repair and so forth.  It's not like the majority of the money is going to go into building bridges that haven't been drawn up yet.  Of course, because projects in front of the bridge have been funded and are in progress, that will move up that bridge on the list too.

Also, infrastructure projects tend to return dollars back to the community.  That new thru-way will open up areas previously undesirable for development.  Widening the road will reduce traffic congestion, saving wasted dollars in productivity and allowing more people to reach businesses.  That new runway will allow more planes to come in and out of the airport.  It's been said that for every $1 spent, you'll see a return of $1.50.  That's not a bad use of money and it lays the groundwork for future projects that no one has even though of yet.
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 01:04:24 AM »

from listening to my congressman on the radio today (granted republican) it is my understanding that much of the money is not spelled out as to what projects it will be used on. also he stated that much of the money is not aimed at jobs. now understand that he voted against the first bailout and is a fiscal conservative. also he looks at it from the standpoint of his district, which isn't likely to get much benefit from the projects. now if they were going to build some dams in california but I am sure the state wouldn't allow it. also having a state $40 billion in the whole without a budget doesn't help.

they announced today state workers would be getting 2 unpaid days a month off. here they have stopped work on ALL state projects, even those that had been planned and bid, even some projects in mid stream.

also the $850 billion will be over $1.1 trillion after interest.

inflation?
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Blackadar
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 03:14:33 AM »

Quote from: Scuzz on January 30, 2009, 01:04:24 AM

from listening to my congressman on the radio today (granted republican) it is my understanding that much of the money is not spelled out as to what projects it will be used on. also he stated that much of the money is not aimed at jobs. now understand that he voted against the first bailout and is a fiscal conservative. also he looks at it from the standpoint of his district, which isn't likely to get much benefit from the projects. now if they were going to build some dams in california but I am sure the state wouldn't allow it. also having a state $40 billion in the whole without a budget doesn't help.

they announced today state workers would be getting 2 unpaid days a month off. here they have stopped work on ALL state projects, even those that had been planned and bid, even some projects in mid stream.

also the $850 billion will be over $1.1 trillion after interest.

inflation?

But what do you do?  Let the country continue to tailspin into a deeper recession/depression?  What Bush gave Wall Street makes this look like a pittance...at least some of this is coming our way.
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2009, 11:20:30 AM »

I don't know if this stimulus will save the economy but I do know that it will be far more effective than the hundreds of billions (trillions?) of dollars that have been sunk into Iraq!  I don't see too many people groaning at that colossal waste of money.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2009, 04:45:59 PM »

I do favor infrastructure work. My fear is that it will take years to notice that anything is going on. I have read that many of the projects being considered are projects that were rejected (for various reasons) earlier.

I see $300 billion is in tax cuts and business incentives. Good, another $500 per person will really boost things. Oh well, I will get $1000 out of it. I don't know enough about business hiring incentives other than they don't help in construction because without projects you don't need employees.

As for Canuck's arguement, I don't know what he has been listening to but everyone except maybe Rush Limbaugh fanatics think we have thrown away a lot of money in Iraq.

I don't see us coming out of this until 2011-12 maybe. I have seen many business slowdowns, in construction things tend to run in cycles. I have never seen anything hit this fast or too this effect. The normal slowdown takes 1-2 years, hopefully this won't take much longer than that.
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2009, 05:18:23 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on January 30, 2009, 04:45:59 PM

I do favor infrastructure work. My fear is that it will take years to notice that anything is going on. I have read that many of the projects being considered are projects that were rejected (for various reasons) earlier.

I see $300 billion is in tax cuts and business incentives. Good, another $500 per person will really boost things. Oh well, I will get $1000 out of it. I don't know enough about business hiring incentives other than they don't help in construction because without projects you don't need employees.

As for Canuck's arguement, I don't know what he has been listening to but everyone except maybe Rush Limbaugh fanatics think we have thrown away a lot of money in Iraq.

I don't see us coming out of this until 2011-12 maybe. I have seen many business slowdowns, in construction things tend to run in cycles. I have never seen anything hit this fast or too this effect. The normal slowdown takes 1-2 years, hopefully this won't take much longer than that.

We've already been in it for over a year.
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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2009, 05:27:27 PM »

We may have already been in it for a year but certain sectors have only felt it recently. Residential construction dumped well before commercial construction fell of. Certain parts of the country are just now being hit.

The forecasts I have heard don't mention so much when we got into it, they just give it a few years "from now" before we get out of it.

I would think if things are improving by the fall 2010 elections we will be very lucky and it will probably be the fall 2012 elections. I am normally an optimist, but this recession is deeper than most and we are not as well equipped to handle it.
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« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2009, 05:30:45 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on January 30, 2009, 12:54:25 AM

No, construction jobs don't have an instant return in jobs.  They do, however, have a fairly quick return in jobs and a long-term growth benefit.  Your State has dozens, hundreds, of infrastructure projects on the planning board in various states.  Many have already been planned, surveyed and just need the funding to get the go-ahead.  Funding these projects puts people across the country back to work in a relatively short amount of time in road widening and building, bridge repair and so forth.  It's not like the majority of the money is going to go into building bridges that haven't been drawn up yet.  Of course, because projects in front of the bridge have been funded and are in progress, that will move up that bridge on the list too.

Also, infrastructure projects tend to return dollars back to the community.  That new thru-way will open up areas previously undesirable for development.  Widening the road will reduce traffic congestion, saving wasted dollars in productivity and allowing more people to reach businesses.  That new runway will allow more planes to come in and out of the airport.  It's been said that for every $1 spent, you'll see a return of $1.50.  That's not a bad use of money and it lays the groundwork for future projects that no one has even though of yet.

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The trick is to make sure that stimulus measures really stimulate, which means that they must affect the economy very quickly, over the next 18 months. Anything that would come online after that must be justified on its merits and not on the looser criteria of being stimulative. One way of ensuring this is the case would be to put in place long-term deficit reduction measures now, which would reassure financial markets that the federal government will not be crowding out private borrowers when the economy turns the corner. (See the testimony of Alice Rivlin and Robert Reischauer, both prominent Democratic economists, before the Senate Budget Committee Jan. 21.)

Quote from: Scuzz on January 30, 2009, 04:45:59 PM

As for Canuck's arguement, I don't know what he has been listening to but everyone except maybe Rush Limbaugh fanatics think we have thrown away a lot of money in Iraq.
I'm pretty sure that's what Canuck was saying too.
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« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2009, 06:33:52 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on January 30, 2009, 11:20:30 AM

I don't know if this stimulus will save the economy but I do know that it will be far more effective than the hundreds of billions (trillions?) of dollars that have been sunk into Iraq!  I don't see too many people groaning at that colossal waste of money.
Not particularly relevant at this point... two wrongs don't make a right, and all that.
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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2009, 07:01:19 PM »

i read Canuck's post as saying that nobody was complaining about the Iraq money pit, maybe i read it wrong....
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« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2009, 10:40:32 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on January 29, 2009, 11:15:35 PM

Quote from: Scuzz on January 29, 2009, 11:08:35 PM

I haven't got the entire list but who does...

Man, who does?

I'll wait until you've read through it to comment on your non-sequiturs.

Fine. I'll skim it and mock it. Forthwith:

- $250 million for infrastructure on the Mississippi River. But not until 2010.

- $2.225 billion to the Army Corps. of Engineers for additional projects that are existing and labor intensive (i.e. requiring Union workers or illegal aliens - this being a guess on my part). But not until 2010.

- $500 million for Native American housing grants. Don't really see the point here.

- Oh and the $18 billion section on renewable energy is awash in poor ways to use the money.

-$4.19 billion to ACORN who should be prosecuted under RICO laws for nationwide voter fraud, IMO. And they specify non profit entities are entitled to this, lest there be any confusion as to who gets this.

In general, it's a spending bill the majority of which won't kick in until 2010. Why? The midterms. smile
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« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2009, 11:17:38 PM »

Where do you guys get this stuff?

First of all, these aren't calendar years, they're fiscal years.  They begin in October of the previous calendar year.  (FY10 begins in 10/09).

The CBO has just released its analysis of when the money will come into play.  As we're already several months into FY09, and the bill hasn't yet passed, it shouldn't surprise anyone that the majority of the money'll make it into the economy during FY10, particularly when the mechanics of distribution, regulations, etc, all have to be settled.

But regardless, many of your complaints are bogus.  Let's start with the Mississippi River entry. 
Here's the portion you're complaining about:

"For an additional amount for 'Mississippi River and Tributaries', $250,000,000:  Provided, that funds provided in this paragraph may only be used for programs, projects, or activites previously funded:  Provided further, that the Corps of Engineers is directed to prioritize funding for activities based on the ability to accelerate existing contracts or fully fund project elements and contracts for such elements in a time period of 2 years after the date of enactment of this Act giving preference to projects and activities thare are labor intensive."

Does that say "don't start until 2010"?  No, in fact, it says that it may only be used for things that are "previously funded," and to prioritize funding for things that occur within 2 years after the act is passed.  Why labor intensive?  To employ Americans, pay them wages, and get them to buy shit.  Does the bill specify anything about union workers or "illegal aliens"?  No, of course not.

Same goes for your complaint about the 2.25 billion for the ACoE, which has the same restrictions as the Mississippi River funding.

Native Americans currently have >50% unemployment nationwide, and 8 of the 10 poorest counties in the United States.  I guess YMMV on whether that deserves money.

WRT to your ACORN comment, you've got your talking points mixed up.  You're supposed to say "ACORN is 'eligible' for up to 4 billion dollars," as that's not at all what the bill provides:

"The bill would require that money be distributed through competitive processes and states that "not less than $3,440,000,000 shall be allocated by a competition" to "States, units of general local government, and nonprofit entities or consortia of nonprofit entities." It also provides that "up to $750,000,000 shall be awarded by competition to nonprofit entities or consortia of nonprofit entities to provide community stabilization assistance.""  It's page 222 of the link I provided, if you'd like to verify for yourself.

And, of course, the midterm elections have nothing to do with this.
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« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2009, 11:37:39 PM »

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$44 million for construction, repair and improvements at US Department of Agriculture facilties

$209 million for work on deferred maintenance at Agricultural Research Service facilities

$245 million for maintaining and modernizing the IT system of the Farm Service Agency

$175 million to buy and restore floodplain easements for flood prevention

$50 million for "Watershed Rehabilitation"

$1.1 billion for rural community facilities direct loans

$2 billion for rural business and industry guaranteed loans

$2.7 billion for rural water and waste dispoal direct loans

$22.1 billion for rural housing insurance fund loans

$2.8 billion for loans to spur rural broadband

$150 million for emergency food assistance

$50 million for regional economic development commissions

$1 billion for "Periodic Censuses and Programs"

$350 million for State Broadband Data and Development Grants

$1.8 billion for Rural Broadband Deployment Grants

$1 billion for Rural Wireless Deployment Grants

$650 million for Digital-to-Analog Converter Box Program

$100 million for "Scientific and Technical Research and Services" at the National Institute of Standards And Technology

$30 million for necessary expenses of the "Hollings Manufacturing Extension Partnership"

$300 million for a competitive construction grant program for research science buildings

$400 million for "habitat restoration and mitigation activities" at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

$600 million for "accelerating satellite development and acquisition"

$140 million for "climate data modeling"

$3 billion for state and local law enforcement grants

$1 billion for "Community Oriented Policing Services"

$250 million for "accelerating the development of the tier 1 set of Earth science climate research missions recommended by the National Academies Decadal Survey."

$50 million for repairs to NASA facilities from storm damage

$300 million for "Major Research Insrumentation program" (science)

$200 million for "academic research facilities modernization"

$100 million for "Education and Human Resources"

$400 million for "Major Research Equipment and Facilities Construction"

$4.5 billion to make military facilities more energy efficient

$1.5 billion for Army Operation and Maintenance fund

$624 million for Navy Operation and Maintenance

$128 million for Marine Corps Operation and Maintenance

$1.23 billion for Air Force Operation and Maintenance

$454 million to "Defense Health Program"

$110 million for Army Reserve Operation and Maintenance

$62 million for Navy Reserve Operation and Maintenance

$45 million for Marine Corps Reserve Operation and Maintenance

$14 million for Air Force Reserve Operation and Maintenance

$302 million for National Guard Operation and Maintenance

$29 million for Air National Guard Operation and Maintenance

$350 million for military energy research and development programs

$2 billion for Army Corps of Engineers "Construction"

$250 million for "Mississippi River and Tributaries"

$2.2 billion for Army Corps "Operation and Maintenance"

$25 million for an Army Corps "Regulatory Program"

$126 million for Interior Department "water reclamation and reuse projects"

$80 million for "rural water projects"

$18.5 billion for "Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy" research in the Department of Energy. That money includes:

$2 billion for development of advanced batteries

$800 million of that is for biomass research and $400 million for geothermal technologies

$1 billion in grants to "institutional entities for energy sustainability and efficiency"

$6.2 billion for the Weatherization Assistance Program

$3.5 billion for Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block Grants

$3.4 billion for state energy programs

$200 million for expenses to implement energy independence programs

$300 million for expenses to implement Energy efficient appliance rebate programs including the Energy Star program

$400 million for expenses to implement Alternative Fuel Vehicle and Infrastructure Grants to States and Local Governments

$1 billion for expenses necessary for advanced battery manufacturing

$4.5 billion to modernize the nation's electricity grid

$1 billion for the Advanced Battery Loan Guarantee Program

$2.4 billion to demonstrate "carbon capture and sequestration technologies"

$400 million for the Advanced Research Projects Agency (Science)

$500 million for "Defense Environmental Cleanup"

$1 billion for construction and repair of border facilities and land ports of entry

$6 billion for energy efficiency projects on government buildings

$600 million to buy and lease government plug-in and alternative fuel vehicles

$426 million in small business loans

$100 million for "non-intrusive detection technology to be deployed at sea ports of entry

$150 million for repair and construction at land border ports of entry

$500 million for explosive detection systems for aviation security

$150 million for alteration or removal of obstructive bridges

$200 million for FEMA Emergency Food and Shelter program

$325 million for Interior Department road, bridge and trail repair projects

$300 million for road and bridge work in Wildlife Refuges and Fish Hatcheries

$1.7 billion for "critical deferred maintenance" in the National Park System

$200 million to revitalize the National Mall in Washington, D.C.

$100 million for National Park Service Centennial Challenge programs

$200 million for repair of U.S. Geological Survey facilities

$500 million for repair and replacement of schools, jails, roads, bridges, housing and more for Bureau of Indian Affairs

$800 million for Superfund programs

$200 million for leaking underground storage tank cleanup

$8.4 billion in "State and Tribal Assistance Grants"

$650 million in "Capital Improvement and Maintenance" at the Agriculture Dept.

$850 million for "Wildland Fire Management"

$550 million for Indian Health facilties

$150 million for deferred maintenance at the Smithsonian museums

$50 million in grants to fund "arts projects and activities which preserve jobs in the non-profit arts sector threatened by declines in philanthropic and other support during the current economic downturn" through the National Endowment for the Arts

$1.2 billion in grants to states for youth summer jobs programs and other activities

$1 billion for states in dislocated worker employment and training activities

$500 million for the dislocated workers assistance national reserve

$80 million for the enforcement of worker protection laws and regulations related to infrastructure and unemployment insurance investments

$300 million for "construction, rehabilitation and acquisition of Job Corps Centers"

$250 million for public health centers

$1 billion for renovation and repair of health centers

$600 million for nurse, physician and dentist training

$462 million for renovation work at the Centers for Disease Control

$1.5 billion for "National Center for Research Resources"

$500 million for "Buildlings and Facilties" at the National Institutes of Health in suburban Washington, D.C.

$700 million for "comparative effectiveness research" on prescription drugs

$1 billion for Low-Income Home Energy Assistance

$2 billion in Child Care and Development Block Grants for states

$1 billion for Head Start programs

$1.1 billion for Early Head Start programs

$100 million for Social Security research programs

$200 million for "Aging Services Programs"

$2 billion for "Office of the National Coordinator for Health Information Technology"

$430 million for public health/social services emergency funds

$2.3 billion for the Centers for Disease Control for a variety of programs

$5.5 billion in targeted education grants

$5.5 billion in "education finance incentive grants"

$2 billion in "school improvement grants"

$13.6 billion for Individuals with Disabilities Education Act

$250 million for statewide education data systems

$14 billion for school modernization, renovation and repair

$160 million for AmeriCorps grants

$400 million for the construction and costs to establish a new "National Computer Center" for the Social Security Administration

$500 million to improve processing of disability and retirement claims

$920 million for Army housing and child development centers

$350 million for Navy and Marine Corps housing and child development centers

$280 million in Air Force housing and child development centers

$3.75 billion in military hospital and surgery center construction

$140 million in Army National Guard construction projects

$70 million in Air National Guard construction projects

$100 million in Army Reserve construction projects

$30 million in Navy Reserve construction projects

$60 million in Air Force Reserve construction projects

$950 million for VA Medical Facilities

$50 million for repairs for military cemeteries

$120 million for a backup information management facility for the State Department

$98 million for National Cybersecurity Initiative

$3 billion for "Grants-in-Aid for Airports"

$300 million for Indian Reservation roads

$300 million for Amtrak capital needs

$800 million for national railroad assets or infrastructure repairs, upgrades

$5.4 billion in federal transit grants

$2 billion in infrastructure development for subways and commuter railways

$5 billion for public housing capital

$1 billion in competitive housing grants

$2.5 billion for energy efficiency upgrades in public housing

$500 million in Native American Housing Block Grants

$4.1 billion to help communities deal with foreclosed homes

$1.5 billion in homeless prevention activities

$79 billion in education funds for states
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« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2009, 11:51:18 PM »

assuming that list is correct then it would appear a certain amount of the bailout money is actually just regular maintenance or state bailout money....


Brendan...i am trying not to talk in absolutes or unknowns to please you...but you are correct, and i will work on it...
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« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2009, 12:23:03 AM »

Quote from: Scuzz on January 30, 2009, 11:51:18 PM

assuming that list is correct then it would appear a certain amount of the bailout money is actually just regular maintenance or state bailout money....

It's clearly more than "regular maintenance or state bailout money," but even if it were limited to those things, the first creates actual jobs and rehabilitates our decaying infrastructure, while the second helps address the fact that state governments can't run deficits.  Given that you're a resident of California, I presume you know what the implications are.
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« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2009, 12:44:27 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on January 31, 2009, 12:23:03 AM

Quote from: Scuzz on January 30, 2009, 11:51:18 PM

assuming that list is correct then it would appear a certain amount of the bailout money is actually just regular maintenance or state bailout money....

It's clearly more than "regular maintenance or state bailout money," but even if it were limited to those things, the first creates actual jobs and rehabilitates our decaying infrastructure, while the second helps address the fact that state governments can't run deficits.  Given that you're a resident of California, I presume you know what the implications are.

How many jobs is it actually going to create, though?  Even a member of the joint committee on taxation doesn't know.
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« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2009, 12:59:13 AM »

Yeah, it's shameful, because it's like no one has a prediction, right?

"A package in the range that the President-Elect has discussed is expected to create between three and four million jobs by the end of 2010."

I think I may end up running every future response through an intermediary.


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« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2009, 04:46:57 PM »

The feds try to create jobs while the states lay people off...

The state offer companies incentives to hire while at the same time laying people off....

I am mixed on the states laying people off. I would love to see more state functions privatized or just plain ended, but I am sorry to see people lose a good job. Here in California they are going to end the CCC (Calif Conservation Corp) with it's 1,300 jobs. Granted, low paying jobs but most were kids who needed the jobs.
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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2009, 11:54:19 PM »

I have complete confidence in our politicians and the bailout package they have worked so hard to create. They have nothing but our best interests in mind. By the end of the year we'll all be employed, swimming in money and driving Hummers that get 5mpg and gasoline will be 50 cents a gallon. I can't wait.
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« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2009, 04:11:05 AM »

Quote from: whiteboyskim on January 30, 2009, 10:40:32 PM

Quote from: Brendan on January 29, 2009, 11:15:35 PM

Quote from: Scuzz on January 29, 2009, 11:08:35 PM

I haven't got the entire list but who does...

Man, who does?

I'll wait until you've read through it to comment on your non-sequiturs.

Fine. I'll skim it and mock it. Forthwith:

- $250 million for infrastructure on the Mississippi River. But not until 2010.

Given the difficulty building infrastructure around flowing water, 11 months headway seems reasonable.

Quote
- $2.225 billion to the Army Corps. of Engineers for additional projects that are existing and labor intensive (i.e. requiring Union workers or illegal aliens - this being a guess on my part). But not until 2010.

"Requiring illegal aliens". Yeah, sure, that'll be right there in the bill.   Roll Eyes

Quote
- $500 million for Native American housing grants. Don't really see the point here.

Residential construction produces jobs.

Quote
- Oh and the $18 billion section on renewable energy is awash in poor ways to use the money.

Longterm investment in what should be one of our top national security and economic priorities.

Quote
-$4.19 billion to ACORN who should be prosecuted under RICO laws for nationwide voter fraud, IMO. And they specify non profit entities are entitled to this, lest there be any confusion as to who gets this.

Absolute f-ing nonsense.
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« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2009, 06:28:57 AM »

Didn't I already make that response? slywink
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« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2009, 10:22:50 PM »

(CNN) -- On Monday, House Republican leaders put out a list of what they call wasteful provisions in the Senate version of the nearly $900 billion stimulus bill that is being debated:

$2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.

A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.

$650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.

$88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).

$448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.

$248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.

$600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.

$400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.

$1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.

$125 million for the Washington sewer system.

$150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.

$1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.

$75 million for "smoking cessation activities."

$200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.

$75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.

$25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.

$500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.

$10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.

$6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.

$500 million for state and local fire stations.

$650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.

$1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.

$88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.

$412 million for CDC buildings and property.

$500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.

$160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.

$5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.

$850 million for Amtrak.

$100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.

$75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.

$110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.

$200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.
 
 
 
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« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2009, 10:38:01 PM »

I don't care about what house Republicans think.  Do you think that list is entirely "wasteful"?
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« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2009, 11:21:06 PM »

Quote from: Scuzz on February 03, 2009, 10:22:50 PM


$600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.


Priuses or Hondas?

Quote

$850 million for Amtrak.


Ah, they wouldn't be Republicans if they weren't taking a shot at Amtrak.
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« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2009, 01:07:26 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on February 03, 2009, 10:38:01 PM

I don't care about what house Republicans think. 
That's the spirit of the new Obama America!
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« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2009, 01:11:54 AM »

There's a good portion of that list which I don't find wasteful at all, but not very interested in listing things point by point.

A lot of them have to do with if the projects cited were funded, then the bodies receiving funding could use the funds they usually generate on other, higher priority operating costs as revenues drop across the whole economy.  A  good many of them also look like they would create jobs.  And Those things which address public health and natural disasters are long term savings on your next medical bill or homeowner's insurance and the like where costs get passed on to consumers ultimately.

One specific Spending I am willing to address:  on higher education and public computer labs, when we have so many trasitioning between employments, the spending can only be wise.  The resources are looking down both barrels of a shotgun of unemployed workers needing a place to retrain and gain new skillsets.  They can't do their homework/coursework on a slate with a lump of coal.  And the community colleges are where the infrastructure is designed to funnel people in these circumstances.  they may have some facilities, but I doubt they have enough to meet projected capacity.  and $200 Million  for the whole nation's community colleges... I doubt it would be enough.
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« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2009, 01:43:55 AM »

I am still trying to figure out what most of this list has anything at all to do with the proper role of federal government spending.   All seems like state issues to me.
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« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2009, 01:49:18 AM »

Quote
$650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.
make them buy proper sets or subscribe to cable-  that'll stimulate the economy.

Quote
$248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.
One word:  Sauder.

Quote
$1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.
Fuck the census.  I get woken up on a Saturday/Sunday morning while trying to sleep in I'm knocking back with a baseball bat.

Quote
$75 million for "smoking cessation activities."
Let them smoke, more jobs will free up as they kick off.

Quote
$160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.
seriously?  'paid' volunteers?

Quote
$100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.
get a piece of paper, write on it 'DO NOT EAT PAINT CHIPS YOU STUPID IDIOTS' and pass out photocopies.
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« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2009, 03:28:50 AM »

Quote from: brettmcd on February 04, 2009, 01:43:55 AM

I am still trying to figure out what most of this list has anything at all to do with the proper role of federal government spending.   All seems like state issues to me.

And which states have funding right now?   If you want to programs, you need the tax money to come from somewhere.  46 states I believe are running a deficit.

And i's very easy to say I don't need that program, so it can go.  But someone else likely needs it.

You can't cut spending without cutting programs.   So If you want the same programs, and we are bringing in LESS tax revenue, then you need more revenue.  How many Elected officials do you expect have the nerve to say we that need higher taxes, state level, local, or federal?  The state in that case has one road, ask Uncle Sam for Federal dollars.

We citizens want everything, but want to pay for nothing.  And it won't work anymore.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 03:30:49 AM by the Nightbreeze » Logged

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