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Author Topic: DC Sniper Executed = another death penalty thread  (Read 5370 times)
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rickfc
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« Reply #40 on: November 13, 2009, 11:29:47 PM »

I think there are certain people that deserve to die for the crimes they commit.  I feel very strongly about this issue, especially when it comes to crimes against children.  I know that there are problems and fallacies in the system we have, but those who murder, rape and/or mutilate have no place on this world.  As I see it, the second they commit the crime, they've forfeited the right to live.

Rick
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Moliere
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« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2009, 05:29:32 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on November 13, 2009, 11:29:47 PM

I think there are certain people that deserve to die for the crimes they commit.  I feel very strongly about this issue, especially when it comes to crimes against children.  I know that there are problems and fallacies in the system we have, but those who murder, rape and/or mutilate have no place on this world.  As I see it, the second they commit the crime, they've forfeited the right to live.

Rick
I think most people would agree with you, but how many innocent people should be sacrificed in our attempt at vengeance?
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« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2009, 12:51:57 AM »

Interesting read Blackjack thanks.  While the killer's crimes against individuals was terrible, I think the scars he gave to society were even worse.  He was, in the textbook definition a terrorist and he held an entire state (2?) hostage.  I can't imagine having to make a dash to my car, bent over, wondering if a bullet was about to plow through my neck.
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« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2009, 02:53:19 PM »

Quote from: Moliere on November 14, 2009, 05:29:32 PM

Quote from: rickfc on November 13, 2009, 11:29:47 PM

I think there are certain people that deserve to die for the crimes they commit.  I feel very strongly about this issue, especially when it comes to crimes against children.  I know that there are problems and fallacies in the system we have, but those who murder, rape and/or mutilate have no place on this world.  As I see it, the second they commit the crime, they've forfeited the right to live.

Rick
I think most people would agree with you, but how many innocent people should be sacrificed in our attempt at vengeance?

Yeah, and this is where I am conflicted on the issue.  I don't have an answer for you on that one, though I don't think that getting rid of the death penalty is it. 
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Rowdy
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« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2009, 04:41:57 PM »

Absolutely the state is in the business of revenge killings - it's institutionalized vengeance for the victims and their families, which ensures that citizens don't take matters into their own hands, and serves as a warning for others.  The death penalty has nothing to do the state taking revenge, it has to do (traditionally) with God taking revenge and executing justice through the state on behalf of the victims family (in the case of murder).  The state "bears the sword" to ensure that the law is upheld.

The concept of vengeance as justice to the victim or their family is as old as humanity.  Our penal code and legal systems are based on a combination of Roman and Judeo-Christian laws, all the way back to the beginnings of western civilization.  In those civilizations certain crimes were punishable by death.  Are we so enlightened suddenly that we think we're wiser than hundreds of generations of rulers and citizens over human history, who knew that victims deserve and demand recompense for their losses?  Do you think no one back then understood mercy or mistakes in the system or corruption?  They're flaws in the system, since we're all flawed people - but they're the price that has to be paid to ensure the law is upheld.  If you're worried about those flaws, why not debate how to lower the risk of mistakes being made, or removing corruption from the system?

And from a religious standpoint - the death penalty is absolutely mandated by God, and not just in the OT law.  Genesis 9:6 says that man is created in the image of God, and murdering another human being is tantamount to attempting to murder God and is only punishable by death.  Romans 13: the government “does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil”.  Governments that don't uphold the law invite anarchy and corruption into their society - something Christians bemoan about North American society every day.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 04:44:37 PM by Rowdy » Logged
Blackadar
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« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2009, 04:47:29 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 04:41:57 PM

Absolutely the state is in the business of revenge killings - it's institutionalized vengeance for the victims and their families, which ensures that citizens don't take matters into their own hands, and serves as a warning for others.  The death penalty has nothing to do the state taking revenge, it has to do (traditionally) with God taking revenge and executing justice through the state on behalf of the victims family (in the case of murder).  The state "bears the sword" to ensure that the law is upheld.

The concept of vengeance as justice to the victim or their family is as old as humanity.  Our penal code and legal systems are based on a combination of Roman and Judeo-Christian laws, all the way back to the beginnings of western civilization.  In those civilizations certain crimes were punishable by death.  Are we so enlightened suddenly that we think we're wiser than hundreds of generations of rulers and citizens over human history, who knew that victims deserve and demand recompense for their losses?  Do you think no one back then understood mercy or mistakes in the system or corruption?  They're flaws in the system, since we're all flawed people - but they're the price that has to be paid to ensure the law is upheld.  If you're worried about those flaws, why not debate how to lower the risk of mistakes being made, or removing corruption from the system?

And from a religious standpoint - the death penalty is absolutely mandated by God, and not just in the OT law.  Genesis 9:6 says that man is created in the image of God, and murdering another human being is tantamount to attempting to murder God and is only punishable by death.  Romans 13: the government “does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil”.  Governments that don't uphold the law invite anarchy and corruption into their society - something Christians bemoan about North American society every day.

Yea, well...good thing we don't live in a country that has to follow your version of God.
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Razgon
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« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2009, 05:10:08 PM »

So, you guys get upset when your president bows to a guy appointed to his office by god (Kings and emperors), but its because of god you kill people? thats a bit scary
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Rowdy
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« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2009, 05:14:55 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on November 17, 2009, 04:47:29 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 04:41:57 PM

Absolutely the state is in the business of revenge killings - it's institutionalized vengeance for the victims and their families, which ensures that citizens don't take matters into their own hands, and serves as a warning for others.  The death penalty has nothing to do the state taking revenge, it has to do (traditionally) with God taking revenge and executing justice through the state on behalf of the victims family (in the case of murder).  The state "bears the sword" to ensure that the law is upheld.

The concept of vengeance as justice to the victim or their family is as old as humanity.  Our penal code and legal systems are based on a combination of Roman and Judeo-Christian laws, all the way back to the beginnings of western civilization.  In those civilizations certain crimes were punishable by death.  Are we so enlightened suddenly that we think we're wiser than hundreds of generations of rulers and citizens over human history, who knew that victims deserve and demand recompense for their losses?  Do you think no one back then understood mercy or mistakes in the system or corruption?  They're flaws in the system, since we're all flawed people - but they're the price that has to be paid to ensure the law is upheld.  If you're worried about those flaws, why not debate how to lower the risk of mistakes being made, or removing corruption from the system?

And from a religious standpoint - the death penalty is absolutely mandated by God, and not just in the OT law.  Genesis 9:6 says that man is created in the image of God, and murdering another human being is tantamount to attempting to murder God and is only punishable by death.  Romans 13: the government “does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil”.  Governments that don't uphold the law invite anarchy and corruption into their society - something Christians bemoan about North American society every day.

Yea, well...good thing we don't live in a country that has to follow your version of God.

I might be wrong, but isn't one of the things that drives you and lots of the other extreme lefties on this board crazy the fact that many many Americans do follow 'my' version of God?  I'm hardly an extremist.  (and not an American, either, in case that isn't already known.)
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Dan_Theman
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« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2009, 05:37:28 PM »

"Traditionally" ... our government, society, and people have been distilled from numerous other nations, a very large number of which have done away with the death penalty - including those which have Christianity as a State religion, which we of course do not.  If someone was to use tradition as an argument to do something, it would seem that we would continue the tradition of abolishing capital punishment as our nation has developed. 

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 05:14:55 PM

I might be wrong, but isn't one of the things that drives you and lots of the other extreme lefties on this board crazy the fact that many many Americans do follow 'my' version of God?  I'm hardly an extremist.  (and not an American, either, in case that isn't already known.)
I know you were not addressing me, but why would anyone rationally care what religion you or someone else has in the U.S.?  What us "extreme lefties" (of which I don't consider myself one, but for the sake of this argument I may be lumped in there) have issues with is ignoring the separation of church and state.  This is oddly enough a principle of conservative governing, not one of liberal governing, and has been established for quite some time much to the chagrin of some politicians and talk show hosts.
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« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2009, 06:10:33 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 05:14:55 PM

I might be wrong, but isn't one of the things that drives you and lots of the other extreme lefties on this board crazy the fact that many many Americans do follow 'my' version of God?  I'm hardly an extremist.  (and not an American, either, in case that isn't already known.)

I don't give a rat's butt if 95% of Americans follow your (or anyone else's) version of God.  It just when someone tries to use their religion as justification to pass legislation that impacts all of us that I get annoyed.  It's funny that you call me an extremist, but you're the one who advocates restricting others' rights because you happen to believe in a fairy tale. 
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Rowdy
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« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2009, 08:08:20 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on November 17, 2009, 06:10:33 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 05:14:55 PM

I might be wrong, but isn't one of the things that drives you and lots of the other extreme lefties on this board crazy the fact that many many Americans do follow 'my' version of God?  I'm hardly an extremist.  (and not an American, either, in case that isn't already known.)

I don't give a rat's butt if 95% of Americans follow your (or anyone else's) version of God.  It just when someone tries to use their religion as justification to pass legislation that impacts all of us that I get annoyed.  It's funny that you call me an extremist, but you're the one who advocates restricting others' rights because you happen to believe in a fairy tale. 

Which rights were we discussing restricting, again?  I thought this thread was about capital punishment.
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« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2009, 08:15:11 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on November 13, 2009, 11:29:47 PM

I think there are certain people that deserve to die for the crimes they commit.  I feel very strongly about this issue, especially when it comes to crimes against children.  I know that there are problems and fallacies in the system we have, but those who murder, rape and/or mutilate have no place on this world.  As I see it, the second they commit the crime, they've forfeited the right to live.


If the U.S. justice system could unerringly arrive at a correct verdict 100% of the time, the death penalty would merely be ineffective and immoral.  However, as Moliere points out, the Innocence Project has repeatedly proven that people are convicted for crimes they factually did not commit.  An innocent man can be released from prison and a guilty one might even dedicated himself to redemption, but a dead man is simply gone.

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 04:41:57 PM

Absolutely the state is in the business of revenge killings - it's institutionalized vengeance for the victims and their families, which ensures that citizens don't take matters into their own hands, and serves as a warning for others.  The death penalty has nothing to do the state taking revenge, it has to do (traditionally) with God taking revenge and executing justice through the state on behalf of the victims family (in the case of murder).  


Boy, if any 1960's robots were posting here in P&R, this scorched out their logic switches for good.  Memory reels might still be usable.  Someone make a list of anyone who suddenly stops posting after reading those two sentences in rapid succession and we'll organize a salvage team.

In the meantime, do you have any data to back up the claim that the death penalty functions as an effective deterrent, either to angry victims or to other would-be criminals?  Murder rates are down across the country over the last twenty years or so, but they're down by a greater percentage in states without the death penalty.

The number of DC-area inhabitants shot by John Allen Muhammad after his capture and incarceration is zero.  We are no safer today than the day he was arrested.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not interested in debating if real-life state-sanctioned murder is somehow justified by abstract theology.  If the best reason you have for doing something is because you think God wants you to, you're doing it wrong.

-Autistic Angel
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Rowdy
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« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2009, 08:32:30 PM »

Quote
...I'm not interested in debating if real-life state-sanctioned murder is somehow justified by abstract theology.

Logic fail.  Is life in prison state sanctioned kidnapping?  Is a fine state sanctioned stealing?

Quote
...If the best reason you have for doing something is because you think God wants you to, you're doing it wrong.

On the contrary, as a Christian, that means I'm doing it right.
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« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2009, 08:40:07 PM »

wow - didnt the last old-testament christians die out about 1000 years ago? I thought it was all cheek-turning now
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« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2009, 08:59:35 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on November 17, 2009, 08:40:07 PM

wow - didnt the last old-testament christians die out about 1000 years ago? I thought it was all cheek-turning now

The pithy drive by one liners aren't really contributing, considering they're not even taking into account what is being said.  Some comment about old testament christians (were there Christians before Christ?) doesn't do anything except display ignorance about Christian theology (which is fine, very common) and an apparent inability to read what was posted earlier.  (Hint: Romans isn't in the OT, and the discussion is a little more complex than eye for an eye.)  I wouldn't have responded to a post so far below the level of the rest of the discussion, except to point out that if your only activity here is to mock someone's post, and even that in a way that doesn't make sense, why bother? 
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« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2009, 09:40:29 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:08:20 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on November 17, 2009, 06:10:33 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 05:14:55 PM

I might be wrong, but isn't one of the things that drives you and lots of the other extreme lefties on this board crazy the fact that many many Americans do follow 'my' version of God?  I'm hardly an extremist.  (and not an American, either, in case that isn't already known.)

I don't give a rat's butt if 95% of Americans follow your (or anyone else's) version of God.  It just when someone tries to use their religion as justification to pass legislation that impacts all of us that I get annoyed.  It's funny that you call me an extremist, but you're the one who advocates restricting others' rights because you happen to believe in a fairy tale. 

Which rights were we discussing restricting, again?  I thought this thread was about capital punishment.

Oh, I don't know... maybe the right to life?
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pr0ner
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« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2009, 10:07:22 PM »

Quote from: Farscry on November 17, 2009, 09:40:29 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:08:20 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on November 17, 2009, 06:10:33 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 05:14:55 PM

I might be wrong, but isn't one of the things that drives you and lots of the other extreme lefties on this board crazy the fact that many many Americans do follow 'my' version of God?  I'm hardly an extremist.  (and not an American, either, in case that isn't already known.)

I don't give a rat's butt if 95% of Americans follow your (or anyone else's) version of God.  It just when someone tries to use their religion as justification to pass legislation that impacts all of us that I get annoyed.  It's funny that you call me an extremist, but you're the one who advocates restricting others' rights because you happen to believe in a fairy tale. 

Which rights were we discussing restricting, again?  I thought this thread was about capital punishment.

Oh, I don't know... maybe the right to life?

When one goes around terrorizing an entire metropolitan area and kill innocent people in the process, one has given up his right to life.
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« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2009, 10:11:01 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 04:41:57 PM

Are we so enlightened suddenly that we think we're wiser than hundreds of generations of rulers and citizens over human history, who knew that victims deserve and demand recompense for their losses?

You have me convinced! Let's go burn some witches to celebrate!
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« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2009, 10:16:08 PM »

Quote from: pr0ner on November 17, 2009, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: Farscry on November 17, 2009, 09:40:29 PM

Oh, I don't know... maybe the right to life?

When one goes around terrorizing an entire metropolitan area and kill innocent people in the process, one has given up his right to life.
One could argue he's merely given others a very good reason to want him dead.
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cheeba
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« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2009, 10:24:02 PM »

I don't see much moral difference between taking someone's freedom and killing them. I get the "not 100% sure" angle on that, but in cases where you are 100% sure - and there are many cases out there like that - I just don't see much moral difference between the removal of all freedoms and removal of life.
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« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2009, 10:31:40 PM »

Quote from: Farscry on November 17, 2009, 09:40:29 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:08:20 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on November 17, 2009, 06:10:33 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 05:14:55 PM

I might be wrong, but isn't one of the things that drives you and lots of the other extreme lefties on this board crazy the fact that many many Americans do follow 'my' version of God?  I'm hardly an extremist.  (and not an American, either, in case that isn't already known.)

I don't give a rat's butt if 95% of Americans follow your (or anyone else's) version of God.  It just when someone tries to use their religion as justification to pass legislation that impacts all of us that I get annoyed.  It's funny that you call me an extremist, but you're the one who advocates restricting others' rights because you happen to believe in a fairy tale. 

Which rights were we discussing restricting, again?  I thought this thread was about capital punishment.

Oh, I don't know... maybe the right to life?

That comes right before "liberty" in the Declaration of Independence.  Engaging in murderous acts ensures that every state is going to attempt to locate you and deprive you of liberty.  Some take it a step further to deprive you of life, all with the "consent of the governed."
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« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2009, 10:35:29 PM »

Quote
Are we so enlightened suddenly that we think we're wiser than hundreds of generations of rulers and citizens over human history, who knew that victims deserve and demand recompense for their losses?

Those same "generations" thought the world was flat and the center of the universe.  They thought bathing was bad for you.There would never have been a Magna Carta because they should have just stayed with what happened in the past. 

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« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2009, 10:49:35 PM »

Quote from: Dan_Theman on November 17, 2009, 10:16:08 PM

Quote from: pr0ner on November 17, 2009, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: Farscry on November 17, 2009, 09:40:29 PM

Oh, I don't know... maybe the right to life?

When one goes around terrorizing an entire metropolitan area and kill innocent people in the process, one has given up his right to life.
One could argue he's merely given others a very good reason to want him dead.
One could argue that.  I'd just be inclined to disagree.
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Dan_Theman
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« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2009, 10:55:53 PM »

Quote from: pr0ner on November 17, 2009, 10:49:35 PM

Quote from: Dan_Theman on November 17, 2009, 10:16:08 PM

Quote from: pr0ner on November 17, 2009, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: Farscry on November 17, 2009, 09:40:29 PM

Oh, I don't know... maybe the right to life?

When one goes around terrorizing an entire metropolitan area and kill innocent people in the process, one has given up his right to life.
One could argue he's merely given others a very good reason to want him dead.
One could argue that.  I'd just be inclined to disagree.
And that I'm okay with smile 

I'm trying to be more controversial, because I don't get a whole lot of responses to my posts.  I think I may need to work a little harder at it frown
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« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2009, 02:52:29 AM »

Quote from: pr0ner on November 17, 2009, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: Farscry on November 17, 2009, 09:40:29 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:08:20 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on November 17, 2009, 06:10:33 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 05:14:55 PM

I might be wrong, but isn't one of the things that drives you and lots of the other extreme lefties on this board crazy the fact that many many Americans do follow 'my' version of God?  I'm hardly an extremist.  (and not an American, either, in case that isn't already known.)

I don't give a rat's butt if 95% of Americans follow your (or anyone else's) version of God.  It just when someone tries to use their religion as justification to pass legislation that impacts all of us that I get annoyed.  It's funny that you call me an extremist, but you're the one who advocates restricting others' rights because you happen to believe in a fairy tale. 

Which rights were we discussing restricting, again?  I thought this thread was about capital punishment.

Oh, I don't know... maybe the right to life?

When one goes around terrorizing an entire metropolitan area and kill innocent people in the process, one has given up his right to life.

Ah, so we've never executed innocent people? Well, that's a relief.
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« Reply #65 on: November 18, 2009, 03:23:55 AM »

Quote from: Farscry on November 18, 2009, 02:52:29 AM

Quote from: pr0ner on November 17, 2009, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: Farscry on November 17, 2009, 09:40:29 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:08:20 PM

Quote from: Blackadar on November 17, 2009, 06:10:33 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 05:14:55 PM

I might be wrong, but isn't one of the things that drives you and lots of the other extreme lefties on this board crazy the fact that many many Americans do follow 'my' version of God?  I'm hardly an extremist.  (and not an American, either, in case that isn't already known.)

I don't give a rat's butt if 95% of Americans follow your (or anyone else's) version of God.  It just when someone tries to use their religion as justification to pass legislation that impacts all of us that I get annoyed.  It's funny that you call me an extremist, but you're the one who advocates restricting others' rights because you happen to believe in a fairy tale. 

Which rights were we discussing restricting, again?  I thought this thread was about capital punishment.

Oh, I don't know... maybe the right to life?

When one goes around terrorizing an entire metropolitan area and kill innocent people in the process, one has given up his right to life.

Ah, so we've never executed innocent people? Well, that's a relief.

Your response has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.
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« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2009, 01:38:19 PM »

Quote from: leo8877 on November 11, 2009, 06:59:58 PM

They should have used a firing squad!

Nah, they should have put him in prison for 25 years and then told him he was free to go.

And then sniped him at the prison gate.
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« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2009, 03:49:00 PM »

Quote from: pr0ner on November 18, 2009, 03:23:55 AM

Quote from: Farscry on November 18, 2009, 02:52:29 AM

Quote from: pr0ner on November 17, 2009, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: Farscry on November 17, 2009, 09:40:29 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:08:20 PM

Which rights were we discussing restricting, again?  I thought this thread was about capital punishment.

Oh, I don't know... maybe the right to life?

When one goes around terrorizing an entire metropolitan area and kill innocent people in the process, one has given up his right to life.

Ah, so we've never executed innocent people? Well, that's a relief.

Your response has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

By that logic, yours has nothing to do with mine, either.

FWIW, before we continue the circle of "witty" quips with each other, I jumped in precisely because this kind of one-liner idiocy is what finally pissed me off. Want to throw out one-liner stupidity? Sure, I'll demonstrate how easy that is to do. Want to engage in an actual conversation? Cool, that'd be much more interesting.
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« Reply #68 on: November 18, 2009, 03:58:54 PM »

Quote from: Farscry on November 18, 2009, 03:49:00 PM

Quote from: pr0ner on November 18, 2009, 03:23:55 AM

Quote from: Farscry on November 18, 2009, 02:52:29 AM

Quote from: pr0ner on November 17, 2009, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: Farscry on November 17, 2009, 09:40:29 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:08:20 PM

Which rights were we discussing restricting, again?  I thought this thread was about capital punishment.

Oh, I don't know... maybe the right to life?

When one goes around terrorizing an entire metropolitan area and kill innocent people in the process, one has given up his right to life.

Ah, so we've never executed innocent people? Well, that's a relief.

Your response has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

By that logic, yours has nothing to do with mine, either.

FWIW, before we continue the circle of "witty" quips with each other, I jumped in precisely because this kind of one-liner idiocy is what finally pissed me off. Want to throw out one-liner stupidity? Sure, I'll demonstrate how easy that is to do. Want to engage in an actual conversation? Cool, that'd be much more interesting.

 I guess I won't make reference to the DC sniper in a thread about the DC sniper ever again.

 retard
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Farscry
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« Reply #69 on: November 18, 2009, 04:04:23 PM »

Quote from: pr0ner on November 18, 2009, 03:58:54 PM

Quote from: Farscry on November 18, 2009, 03:49:00 PM

Quote from: pr0ner on November 18, 2009, 03:23:55 AM

Quote from: Farscry on November 18, 2009, 02:52:29 AM

Quote from: pr0ner on November 17, 2009, 10:07:22 PM

Quote from: Farscry on November 17, 2009, 09:40:29 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:08:20 PM

Which rights were we discussing restricting, again?  I thought this thread was about capital punishment.

Oh, I don't know... maybe the right to life?

When one goes around terrorizing an entire metropolitan area and kill innocent people in the process, one has given up his right to life.

Ah, so we've never executed innocent people? Well, that's a relief.

Your response has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

By that logic, yours has nothing to do with mine, either.

FWIW, before we continue the circle of "witty" quips with each other, I jumped in precisely because this kind of one-liner idiocy is what finally pissed me off. Want to throw out one-liner stupidity? Sure, I'll demonstrate how easy that is to do. Want to engage in an actual conversation? Cool, that'd be much more interesting.

 I guess I won't make reference to the DC sniper in a thread about the DC sniper ever again.

 retard

And I guess I won't reply to a comment about capital punishment by making my own comment on capital punishment.

retard right back at ya.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #70 on: November 18, 2009, 05:46:25 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:32:30 PM

Quote
...I'm not interested in debating if real-life state-sanctioned murder is somehow justified by abstract theology.

Logic fail. 


That's a bold condemnation, especially fresh off the heels of your "States are absolutely in the business of revenge killings for vengeance which have nothing to do with revenge" argument.


Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:32:30 PM

Is life in prison state sanctioned kidnapping?  Is a fine state sanctioned stealing?


Only if these penalties exacted out of spite and petty vengeance rather than the demonstrable good of the larger society.  Incarceration is the controlled and humane segregation of people who have been found unfit for participation in broader society.  Fines are financial penalties for undesirable and specifically defined behaviors.  When the system functions properly, both forms of punishment encourage behavioral change from people, and when it doesn't, victims can be recompensed for unjust suffering.

The death penalty has no measurable effect as a deterrent.  People cannot atone for their crimes because they are dead, and innocent victims are beyond compensation.  It doesn't make society safer, save money, clear space in our prisons, yield organs for needy patients, or produce the ingredients for Soylent Green.  It's purely for the vengeance, so that people like you can enjoy a fleeting, detached moment of satisfaction when you hear that somebody, somewhere has been executed for crimes they *probably* committed.

Even if you believe that some people are completely irredeemable and deserve to die for their crimes, I do not trust the infallibility of the justice system to accurately and impartially determine who they are.  Considering their rhetoric about trial lawyers and activist judges, I would have expected conservatives to share that skepticism.


Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:32:30 PM

Quote
...If the best reason you have for doing something is because you think God wants you to, you're doing it wrong.

On the contrary, as a Christian, that means I'm doing it right.


Since I do not believe that you're blessed with any greater degree of divine insight than any other person who's ever sought to justify their actions as the Will of God, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #71 on: November 18, 2009, 06:00:06 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on November 18, 2009, 05:46:25 PM

Incarceration is the controlled and humane segregation of people who have been found unfit for participation in broader society.  Fines are financial penalties for undesirable and specifically defined behaviors.  When the system functions properly, both forms of punishment encourage behavioral change from people, and when it doesn't, victims can be recompensed for unjust suffering.

The death penalty has no measurable effect as a deterrent.  People cannot atone for their crimes because they are dead, and innocent victims are beyond compensation.  It doesn't make society safer, save money, clear space in our prisons, yield organs for needy patients, or produce the ingredients for Soylent Green.  It's purely for the vengeance, so that people like you can enjoy a fleeting, detached moment of satisfaction when you hear that somebody, somewhere has been executed for crimes they *probably* committed.

Even if you believe that some people are completely irredeemable and deserve to die for their crimes, I do not trust the infallibility of the justice system to accurately and impartially determine who they are.
nod  thumbsup
Damn, AA I'm going to have to bookmark this post for future quotation.
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« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2009, 06:37:38 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on November 18, 2009, 05:46:25 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:32:30 PM

Quote
...I'm not interested in debating if real-life state-sanctioned murder is somehow justified by abstract theology.

Logic fail. 


That's a bold condemnation, especially fresh off the heels of your "States are absolutely in the business of revenge killings for vengeance which have nothing to do with revenge" argument.


Saying that equating legal capital punishment to murder is illogical is a bold condemnation?  Thanks, I didn't realize it was that bold.  Thought it was rather mundane, actually.  Regarding the sentence in my original post that you're so desperately waving at, I'm sorry that you couldn't follow the train of thought. I tried to explain it clearly through a couple different approaches in that paragraph, so perhaps if that first line is distracting you you could read the rest of it and get the gist.  Reading in context and as a whole is helpful.  You could also try not to mangle the quote, or finish the sentence to try and have it make more sense.  In any event, it's nice debate technique to attempt to ridicule a completely unrelated item of your opponent before discussing your own point.  Puts the reader in a sympathetic point of view, eh?  I especially like the link, considering the original post is just a little way up the same page.  Very professional!

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:32:30 PM

Is life in prison state sanctioned kidnapping?  Is a fine state sanctioned stealing?
Quote from: Autistic Angel

Only if these penalties exacted out of spite and petty vengeance rather than the demonstrable good of the larger society.  Incarceration is the controlled and humane segregation of people who have been found unfit for participation in broader society.  Fines are financial penalties for undesirable and specifically defined behaviors.  When the system functions properly, both forms of punishment encourage behavioral change from people, and when it doesn't, victims can be recompensed for unjust suffering.

The death penalty has no measurable effect as a deterrent.  People cannot atone for their crimes because they are dead, and innocent victims are beyond compensation.  It doesn't make society safer, save money, clear space in our prisons, yield organs for needy patients, or produce the ingredients for Soylent Green.  It's purely for the vengeance, so that people like you can enjoy a fleeting, detached moment of satisfaction when you hear that somebody, somewhere has been executed for crimes they *probably* committed.

Even if you believe that some people are completely irredeemable and deserve to die for their crimes, I do not trust the infallibility of the justice system to accurately and impartially determine who they are.  Considering their rhetoric about trial lawyers and activist judges, I would have expected conservatives to share that skepticism.


I'm sure that's a very fine opinion you've got there, but it's completely irrelevant.  Legal, government sanctioned captial punishment is no more 'murder' than fines are stealing or that jail is kidnapping.  You may feel that the police officer is giving you a ticket out of 'spite and petty vengeance', but he's still not stealing from you.  Regardless of what your opinions are on their validity, or effectiveness, as long as they're backed by laws implemented by government representatives of the people, capital punishment can not in any rational manner be called 'murder'.  If you remain unconvinced, perhaps you should phone the police and try to have the judges, prosecution and executioner in one of the states that have cap punishment arrested for murder, and see what they tell you.


Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:32:30 PM

Quote
...If the best reason you have for doing something is because you think God wants you to, you're doing it wrong.

On the contrary, as a Christian, that means I'm doing it right.

Quote from: Autistic Angel
Since I do not believe that you're blessed with any greater degree of divine insight than any other person who's ever sought to justify their actions as the Will of God, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Again, you missed the point.  Whether I have insight or am off my rocker is completely irrelevant - the point is that for a Christian, Muslim or any other religious person who believes in a deity and takes their faith seriously, logically that person's goal will be to perform the tenets of that religion.  In Christianity one of the primary tenets is to do what God wants you to do.  So your statement that 'I'm doing it wrong', is, in fact, incorrect.  Follow?  In other words, I wouldn't be Christian if I wasn't trying to do what I thought God wanted me to do. 

Not germane to the Capital Punishment discussion, just wanted to clarify further since you didn't seem to be following.
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« Reply #73 on: November 18, 2009, 07:00:13 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on November 18, 2009, 06:37:38 PM

I'm sure that's a very fine opinion you've got there, but it's completely irrelevant.  Legal, government sanctioned captial punishment is no more 'murder' than fines are stealing or that jail is kidnapping.  You may feel that the police officer is giving you a ticket out of 'spite and petty vengeance', but he's still not stealing from you.  Regardless of what your opinions are on their validity, or effectiveness, as long as they're backed by laws implemented by government representatives of the people, capital punishment can not in any rational manner be called 'murder'.  If you remain unconvinced, perhaps you should phone the police and try to have the judges, prosecution and executioner in one of the states that have cap punishment arrested for murder, and see what they tell you.
If the only difference between "murder" and "capital punishment" is whether it's legal or not, I think somewhere along the line we entirely missed the point of the debate.  This discussion has not been about whether capital punishment is legal, instead it has been questioning if it is a justifiable and ethical sentence to pass down in modern society.
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« Reply #74 on: November 18, 2009, 07:14:08 PM »

Obama loves capital punishment!

Speaking of this, how is it possible that Mohammed can get a fair trial in the united states...let a lone in NYC?
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« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2009, 07:19:16 PM »

Quote
Incarceration is the controlled and humane segregation of people


Seriously? Humane?


Quote
When the system functions properly, both forms of punishment encourage behavioral change from people, and when it doesn't, victims can be recompensed for unjust suffering.

Nice caveat. 

Quote
The death penalty has no measurable effect as a deterrent. 


As we have more people in jail than we've ever had, neither does incarceration.

Quote
People cannot atone for their crimes because they are dead, and innocent victims are beyond compensation. 


How would JAM atone for his crimes? How would the victims be compensated? (Unless you mean those incorrectly convicted.)


Quote
It doesn't make society safer, save money, clear space in our prisons, yield organs for needy patients, or produce the ingredients for Soylent Green. 


Neither has incarceration.


Quote
Even if you believe that some people are completely irredeemable and deserve to die for their crimes, I do not trust the infallibility of the justice system to accurately and impartially determine who they are. 



Do you trust that system to incarcerate them? If not, I'm not sure what your point is.

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« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2009, 07:49:25 PM »

Quote from: Dan_Theman on November 18, 2009, 07:00:13 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 18, 2009, 06:37:38 PM

I'm sure that's a very fine opinion you've got there, but it's completely irrelevant.  Legal, government sanctioned captial punishment is no more 'murder' than fines are stealing or that jail is kidnapping.  You may feel that the police officer is giving you a ticket out of 'spite and petty vengeance', but he's still not stealing from you.  Regardless of what your opinions are on their validity, or effectiveness, as long as they're backed by laws implemented by government representatives of the people, capital punishment can not in any rational manner be called 'murder'.  If you remain unconvinced, perhaps you should phone the police and try to have the judges, prosecution and executioner in one of the states that have cap punishment arrested for murder, and see what they tell you.
If the only difference between "murder" and "capital punishment" is whether it's legal or not, I think somewhere along the line we entirely missed the point of the debate.  This discussion has not been about whether capital punishment is legal, instead it has been questioning if it is a justifiable and ethical sentence to pass down in modern society.

Of course - my response was to AA's post, which proclaimed that capital punishment equates to state sanctioned murder.  My contribution to the point of the debate, about the usefulness and ethics of cap punishment was the subject of my first post in this thread.  You're quoting me out of context; that was a response to a specific point made.
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« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2009, 08:04:04 PM »

Fair enough - thanks for the clarification.  I believe my confusion was because his post that you quoted said nothing about capital punishment being murder, so I probably missed it from earlier.
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« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2009, 09:57:29 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on November 18, 2009, 06:37:38 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on November 18, 2009, 05:46:25 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:32:30 PM

Quote
...I'm not interested in debating if real-life state-sanctioned murder is somehow justified by abstract theology.

Logic fail.  


That's a bold condemnation, especially fresh off the heels of your "States are absolutely in the business of revenge killings for vengeance which have nothing to do with revenge" argument.


Saying that equating legal capital punishment to murder is illogical is a bold condemnation?  


Any attempted condemnation of someone else's logic would be bold in the face of your thesis post.  It's like grousing about someone's choice of store-bought cupcakes when your own contribution to the party was charred Chef Boyardee.


Quote from: Rowdy on November 18, 2009, 06:37:38 PM

Regarding the sentence in my original post that you're so desperately waving at, I'm sorry that you couldn't follow the train of thought. I tried to explain it clearly through a couple different approaches in that paragraph, so perhaps if that first line is distracting you you could read the rest of it and get the gist.  Reading in context and as a whole is helpful.

Don't worry, I read the whole thing.  I particularly enjoyed the part where you argued the death penalty is righteous because it has existed throughout human history.  So many of the rulers and citizens whose wisdom you revere also believed in slavery, racism, sexual discrimination, violent homophobia, religious persecution, and other "trial by lynch mob" institutions of intolerance and exploitation, your position is either monstrous or in desperate need of a better rationale.


Quote from: Rowdy on November 18, 2009, 06:37:38 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:32:30 PM

Is life in prison state sanctioned kidnapping?  Is a fine state sanctioned stealing?
Quote from: Autistic Angel

Only if these penalties exacted out of spite and petty vengeance rather than the demonstrable good of the larger society.  Incarceration is the controlled and humane segregation of people who have been found unfit for participation in broader society.  Fines are financial penalties for undesirable and specifically defined behaviors.  When the system functions properly, both forms of punishment encourage behavioral change from people, and when it doesn't, victims can be recompensed for unjust suffering.

The death penalty has no measurable effect as a deterrent.  People cannot atone for their crimes because they are dead, and innocent victims are beyond compensation.  It doesn't make society safer, save money, clear space in our prisons, yield organs for needy patients, or produce the ingredients for Soylent Green.  It's purely for the vengeance, so that people like you can enjoy a fleeting, detached moment of satisfaction when you hear that somebody, somewhere has been executed for crimes they *probably* committed.

Even if you believe that some people are completely irredeemable and deserve to die for their crimes, I do not trust the infallibility of the justice system to accurately and impartially determine who they are.  Considering their rhetoric about trial lawyers and activist judges, I would have expected conservatives to share that skepticism.


I'm sure that's a very fine opinion you've got there, but it's completely irrelevant.  Legal, government sanctioned captial punishment is no more 'murder' than fines are stealing or that jail is kidnapping.  You may feel that the police officer is giving you a ticket out of 'spite and petty vengeance', but he's still not stealing from you.  Regardless of what your opinions are on their validity, or effectiveness, as long as they're backed by laws implemented by government representatives of the people, capital punishment can not in any rational manner be called 'murder'.  If you remain unconvinced, perhaps you should phone the police and try to have the judges, prosecution and executioner in one of the states that have cap punishment arrested for murder, and see what they tell you.


In short, the crux of your entire argument here is that my usage of the phrase "state-sanctioned murder" is technically incorrect because the legal definition of "murder" specifies the loss of life to be unlawful and therefore cannot be sanctioned by the state?  I wonder if you're quite so precise anytime someone claims that abortion is murder, remarks that Boston murdered Colorado in the 2007 World series, or talks about a flock of crows.


Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:32:30 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on November 17, 2009, 08:32:30 PM

Quote
...If the best reason you have for doing something is because you think God wants you to, you're doing it wrong.

On the contrary, as a Christian, that means I'm doing it right.

Quote from: Autistic Angel
Since I do not believe that you're blessed with any greater degree of divine insight than any other person who's ever sought to justify their actions as the Will of God, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Again, you missed the point.  Whether I have insight or am off my rocker is completely irrelevant - the point is that for a Christian, Muslim or any other religious person who believes in a deity and takes their faith seriously, logically that person's goal will be to perform the tenets of that religion.  In Christianity one of the primary tenets is to do what God wants you to do.  So your statement that 'I'm doing it wrong', is, in fact, incorrect.  Follow?  In other words, I wouldn't be Christian if I wasn't trying to do what I thought God wanted me to do.  


Oh.

God created a universe defined by quantifiable laws of physics, thermodynamics, chemistry, and complex quantum mechanics that allow the machine of creation to run itself without divine intervention.  Humanity's capacity for intellect and reason allows us to understand scientific laws governing subatomic particles, cell division, metallurgy, stellar fission, photosynthesis, magnetism, and at least eight other things.  It is definable, logical, and rational, and could only have been generated by a being with an profound reverence for those qualities.

Therefore, when you choose to shrug off logic and reason to support the death penalty because you think God likes vengeance, you're doing it wrong.

-Autistic Angel
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 10:58:14 PM by Autistic Angel » Logged
Harkonis
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« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2009, 11:49:26 AM »

it's pretty short-sighted to keep calling them 'revenge killings'

of course I don't come to P&R a lot because it's full of short-sighted stubborn people on all sides of the issues.
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