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Author Topic: Canada gets it wrong on getting it right  (Read 12346 times)
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Eduardo X
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« on: January 20, 2008, 04:29:15 AM »

The Canadian foreign minister has apologised for including the US and Israel on a list of states where prisoners are at risk of torture.
Sure, diplomacy is a good idea, but THEY WERE RIGHT!
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kronovan
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« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2008, 05:05:41 AM »

Yup, being a Canadian I've now read that same article in numerous publications. It's even more amazing when you consider the Foreign Affairs Minister who's office created the report is a Conservative; Canadian political equivalent of a Republican. My own gut feelings on this is that the reports premature circulation isn't completely an accident, but partly timed around the current US primaries.
Also, the fact that a US defence spokesmen tore a strip off of NATO for it's perfomance in Afghanistan earlier this week, seems like a bit too much of a coincidence to me.

Not that I'm trying to stoke the fires of conspiracy, but controversial things like this are very uncommon in the Foreign Affairs Ministry here.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 05:08:29 AM by kronovan » Logged
CSL
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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2008, 05:26:15 AM »

Quote from: kronovan on January 20, 2008, 05:05:41 AM

Also, the fact that a US defence spokesmen tore a strip off of NATO for it's perfomance in Afghanistan earlier this week, seems like a bit too much of a coincidence to me.

It was pretty clear that Gates was tearing a strip off nations that weren't contributing combat troops or demanding they remain in out of the way no danger areas. And his note about all of us not being that great in anti-guerilla warfare isn't wrong.
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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2008, 07:01:43 PM »

Nobody should have to defend their causes for not supporting illegitimate military actions, police state activity, and human rights violations.

The REAL victory is how the chicken hawks get to question why people aren't supporting their illegal, illegitimate activities, and question their patriotism, etc., and how the "liberal media" follows along and walks in lockstep with their rhetoric.

I've always been mystified how people worshiping a deity who was tortured to death can be the staunchest supporters of torture.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 07:05:04 PM by unbreakable » Logged
Mr. Fed
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2008, 10:47:14 PM »

Imagine that I think that Eduardo is a credulous pinko.

Which option is more likely to get that message out, and get people discussing whether Eduardo is a credulous pinko, without having to suffer the consequences of maintaining that Eduardo is a credulous pinko?

Option 1:  Keep my opinion that Eduardo is a credulous pinko to myself.

Option 2:  State in public that I think that Eduardo is a credulous pinko, and then several news cycles later, apologize for calling Eduardo a credulous pinko, and for several subsequent news cycles discuss that whether or not Eduardo is a combination of red and white and favors nationalization of everything bigger than a lemonade stand, it was no doubt undiplomatic to call him a credulous pinko.

cf:  Rove '00, '02, '04, '06; Clinton '08 ("I regret pointing out repeatedly that Obama is a Negro......")
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2008, 11:51:10 PM »

Or better yet, have a group "unaffiliated" with you call up people in an area and have them ask how they feel about Ed being a credulous pinko.  Or if they knew Ed was going to let their kids buy pogs.  Or that Ed thinks people have the right to juggle cats.

That's called "push polling".  It's also a tool which one could say Mike Huckabee is using to good effect, but the people doing it are unaffiliated with his campaign.  He wishes they wouldn't do it, but gosh darn it, those damn campaign finance laws prevent him from even talking to them!  It's so sad, and it's really all McCain's fault, don't ya know.
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DarkEL
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2008, 12:22:41 AM »

Quote from: unbreakable on January 20, 2008, 07:01:43 PM

I've always been mystified how people worshiping a deity who was tortured to death can be the staunchest supporters of torture.
sigh....

We need to come up with some standard responses for these huge illogical connections that you like to make.

Dear Unbreakable,

You are wrong in your logic in this post due to the following reasons:
1. Faulty Cause and Effect
  Example: On the basis of my observations, wearing huge pants makes you fat.

2. The few are the same as the whole
  Example: Some Americans are animal rights activists. Some Americans wear fur coats. Therefore, Americans are hypocrites.

3. Irrelevant Comparisons
  Example: A hundred dollars is a good price for a toaster, compared to buying a Ferrari
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2008, 12:44:41 AM »

Or you could, you know, try proving me wrong somehow.

But hey, ad hominem is probably far more fun than doing any work, especially when you can also get it to boost your false sense of superiority.
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DarkEL
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2008, 12:51:50 AM »

Quote from: unbreakable on January 22, 2008, 12:44:41 AM

Or you could, you know, try proving me wrong somehow.

But hey, ad hominem is probably far more fun than doing any work, especially when you can also get it to boost your false sense of superiority.
Dear Unbreakable,

You are wrong in your logic in this post due to the following reasons:

1. Incompleteness as proof of defect
  Example: Your theory of gravity doesn't address the question of why there are not unicorns, so it must be wrong.

2. I am the world
  Example: I don't listen to Country music. Therefore, Country music is not popular.

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CSL
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2008, 06:01:09 AM »

Quote from: unbreakable on January 20, 2008, 07:01:43 PM

I've always been mystified how people worshiping a deity who was tortured to death can be the staunchest supporters of torture.

I've always been mystified how people worshipping a deity who was tortured to death could implement and support the Spanish Inquisition.
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kronovan
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2008, 07:59:40 AM »

Quote from: CSL on January 22, 2008, 06:01:09 AM

Quote from: unbreakable on January 20, 2008, 07:01:43 PM

I've always been mystified how people worshiping a deity who was tortured to death can be the staunchest supporters of torture.

I've always been mystified how people worshipping a deity who was tortured to death could implement and support the Spanish Inquisition.

Yeah, I think it's called denominization. As in, we'll boil the text down to create are very own subgroup and create some nasty tasting soup in the process.
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DarkEL
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2008, 08:09:12 AM »

Quote from: CSL on January 22, 2008, 06:01:09 AM

Quote from: unbreakable on January 20, 2008, 07:01:43 PM

I've always been mystified how people worshiping a deity who was tortured to death can be the staunchest supporters of torture.

I've always been mystified how people worshipping a deity who was tortured to death could implement and support the Spanish Inquisition.


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Blackadar
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2008, 12:26:57 PM »

Quote from: DarkEL on January 22, 2008, 12:51:50 AM

Quote from: unbreakable on January 22, 2008, 12:44:41 AM

Or you could, you know, try proving me wrong somehow.

But hey, ad hominem is probably far more fun than doing any work, especially when you can also get it to boost your false sense of superiority.
Dear Unbreakable,

You are wrong in your logic in this post due to the following reasons:

1. Incompleteness as proof of defect
  Example: Your theory of gravity doesn't address the question of why there are not unicorns, so it must be wrong.

2. I am the world
  Example: I don't listen to Country music. Therefore, Country music is not popular.



Actually, he raised a good point.  I think you're trying the ad-hominem attack because you don't really have a comeback.  Seriously, if Jesus was tortured to death, and if you believe in Jesus, then how do you believe in torture?

The only logical way out is to claim what we're doing isn't torture, but good luck on that route...ya know, the Geneva Convention and all don't quite support that view.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2008, 01:47:19 PM »

I apologize for calling Fed a lawyer. Mr. Fed is my ally, and it was a grave oversight to call him a lawyer.
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2008, 02:40:13 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on January 22, 2008, 12:26:57 PM

Quote from: DarkEL on January 22, 2008, 12:51:50 AM

Quote from: unbreakable on January 22, 2008, 12:44:41 AM

Or you could, you know, try proving me wrong somehow.

But hey, ad hominem is probably far more fun than doing any work, especially when you can also get it to boost your false sense of superiority.
Dear Unbreakable,

You are wrong in your logic in this post due to the following reasons:

1. Incompleteness as proof of defect
  Example: Your theory of gravity doesn't address the question of why there are not unicorns, so it must be wrong.

2. I am the world
  Example: I don't listen to Country music. Therefore, Country music is not popular.



Actually, he raised a good point.  I think you're trying the ad-hominem attack because you don't really have a comeback.  Seriously, if Jesus was tortured to death, and if you believe in Jesus, then how do you believe in torture?

The only logical way out is to claim what we're doing isn't torture, but good luck on that route...ya know, the Geneva Convention and all don't quite support that view.

Please, don't interrupt DarkEL.  He was trying to hate on me, as hard as he could.  Appeals to logic only get in the way of that.

Carry on, DarkEL.  You go, girl!
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VynlSol
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2008, 02:45:02 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on January 22, 2008, 12:26:57 PM



Seriously, if Jesus was tortured to death, and if you believe in Jesus, then how do you believe in torture?



If it was good enough for Jesus, then it's damn well good enough for the rest of us!
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th'FOOL
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2008, 03:33:31 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on January 22, 2008, 02:40:13 PM

Please, don't interrupt DarkEL.  He was trying to hate on me, as hard as he could.  Appeals to logic only get in the way of that.

Carry on, DarkEL.  You go, girl!

As hard as he could?  LOL.  You certainly don't know El. 

Sorry, looks like my popcorn is ready.  carry on! Bring your own!
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ATB
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« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2008, 03:37:05 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on January 22, 2008, 12:26:57 PM

Actually, he raised a good point.  I think you're trying the ad-hominem attack because you don't really have a comeback.  Seriously, if Jesus was tortured to death, and if you believe in Jesus, then how do you believe in torture?

The only logical way out is to claim what we're doing isn't torture, but good luck on that route...ya know, the Geneva Convention and all don't quite support that view.

How about this: How can a moral relativist cast judgement against those who torture? It's their truth that torture is okay.  It's not your truth, but so what. It's theirs and who are you to judge?

And DarkEl is right on one front: the argument itself is a red herring and distraction totally unrelated to the topic at hand.  Actually on two: Unbreakable does use a lot of unrelated correlation and speculation to support his argument.  He states his opinion as fact and then challenges us to prove it incorrect.  Funny thing about opinions is that they can't be.

However, in principle, Unbreakable is absolutely correct.  I personally have a very hard time condoning the dehumanization of other men regardless of their intent to kill me.  Torture to save Americans was something I thought was acceptible once upon a time, but as I've matured in faith, it does not jive at all as the tenets of Christianity...however, faith in Jesus is not a call to be taken advantage of by evil...and to this end, there are rules of engagement. Is torture one of those? No.

With regard to the Inquisition: The simple answer is they were not Christians. Period.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 03:40:46 PM by ATB » Logged
DarkEL
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« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2008, 04:12:38 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on January 22, 2008, 12:26:57 PM

Actually, he raised a good point.  I think you're trying the ad-hominem attack because you don't really have a comeback.  Seriously, if Jesus was tortured to death, and if you believe in Jesus, then how do you believe in torture?

The only logical way out is to claim what we're doing isn't torture, but good luck on that route...ya know, the Geneva Convention and all don't quite support that view.

I'm sorry but since when is expressing an obvious prejudice by lumping a large group of people together based on the actions of a few considered making a good point?

Torture is absolutely evil and those who have condoned it should be punished.
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DarkEL
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« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2008, 04:19:34 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on January 22, 2008, 02:40:13 PM

Please, don't interrupt DarkEL.  He was trying to hate on me, as hard as he could.  Appeals to logic only get in the way of that.

Carry on, DarkEL.  You go, girl!

No hate against you as I've had several enjoyable conversations with you in the past.

However there is a hatred of idiotic and prejudiced comments. Which is what you demonstrated here.

i.e. hating the game.. not the player.

if you notice - I'm not disagreeing with anyone over the fact that the catholic church was responsible for the Spanish Inquisition. It was a horrible thing and one of the worst examples of how religious leaders can abuse power.

But of course - I don't want to get in the way of your tantrum of how people here are hating on you once again. I mean it's not like anyone wasn't expecting you to say that again.

And you need to be a bit more careful with your words with me. Calling me a girl like that is getting awfully close to a personal attack which will not be tolerated.

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DarkEL
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« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2008, 04:28:28 PM »

Quote from: ATB on January 22, 2008, 03:37:05 PM

With regard to the Inquisition: The simple answer is they were not Christians. Period.

I would disagree with you on this point. They may not have been protestants but they were Christian.

Christians doing very evil things of course - but that doesn't negate the fact that they were Christian and most likely still went to heaven.

You can't claim that someone wasn't christian because they did bad things anymore than unbreakable can claim that all christians are evil because some did some bad things
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« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2008, 05:14:39 PM »

Quote from: DarkEL on January 22, 2008, 04:28:28 PM

Quote from: ATB on January 22, 2008, 03:37:05 PM

With regard to the Inquisition: The simple answer is they were not Christians. Period.

I would disagree with you on this point. They may not have been protestants but they were Christian.

Christians doing very evil things of course - but that doesn't negate the fact that they were Christian and most likely still went to heaven.

You can't claim that someone wasn't christian because they did bad things anymore than unbreakable can claim that all christians are evil because some did some bad things

Dear DarkEL,

You are wrong in your logic in this post due to the following reasons:
1. Faulty Cause and Effect
  Example: On the basis of my observations, wearing huge pants makes you fat.

2. The few are the same as the whole
  Example: Some Americans are animal rights activists. Some Americans wear fur coats. Therefore, Americans are hypocrites.

3. Irrelevant Comparisons
  Example: A hundred dollars is a good price for a toaster, compared to buying a Ferrari
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Mr. Fed
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« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2008, 05:20:19 PM »

Quote from: ATB on January 22, 2008, 03:37:05 PM



With regard to the Inquisition: The simple answer is they were not Christians. Period.


It would be easy to say their acts were not Christian or that they fell short of what Christians are called upon to do.  I think saying that they were not Christians is a harder argument, however.  Were they not Christians because of some central doctrinal heresy, the way many argue that Mormons are not Christians?  I am unaware of any such central heresy among the Inquisition (as opposed to bad ideas about ends justifying means) (though the fact that I don't know it certainly doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).  Certainly the Inquisition did brutal and unChristlike things ostensibly in the name of Christ.  Does this make them not-Christian?  If so, how is that reconciled with the Christian doctrine of forgiveness through grace?  If I am a Christian, and commit a grave evil through weakness or pride or hate, do I cease being a Christian?  Do I start being one again once I repent and am forgiven?

This isn't just angels-on-pinheads.  The well-Y-was-not-an-X argument is a rhetorical dodge employed in politics and religion to minimize wrongs by favored groups.  The better and more honest approach is to admit that all groups run by humans are susceptible to wrongs, and to be open to inquiry as to whether the history or doctrine of a particular group makes it prone to wrong.

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ATB
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« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2008, 05:22:11 PM »

Quote from: DarkEL on January 22, 2008, 04:28:28 PM

Quote from: ATB on January 22, 2008, 03:37:05 PM

With regard to the Inquisition: The simple answer is they were not Christians. Period.

I would disagree with you on this point. They may not have been protestants but they were Christian.

Christians doing very evil things of course - but that doesn't negate the fact that they were Christian and most likely still went to heaven.

You can't claim that someone wasn't christian because they did bad things anymore than unbreakable can claim that all christians are evil because some did some bad things

Well, without going into whether or not Catholic doctrines perpetuate Christianity or march against it, there certainly must have been Christians in the Inquisition. But, I would propose that the vast majority of the leadership (as is the case today imo) is the equivalent of the Pharisees of Christs time. That is, they believe to be seen and are seen to believe when in fact they do not.

The whole notion of the inquisition- to root out heretics and in many cases kill them- is a uniquely Catholic proposition and is not even hinted at in the NT.  So the practice rooted in the faulty doctrine upon which the Catholic church is based leads me to question whether they were in fact Christians, so much as powermad men leading men astray.
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« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2008, 05:25:22 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Fed on January 22, 2008, 05:20:19 PM


It would be easy to say their acts were not Christian or that they fell short of what Christians are called upon to do.  I think saying that they were not Christians is a harder argument, however.  Were they not Christians because of some central doctrinal heresy, the way many argue that Mormons are not Christians?  I am unaware of any such central heresy among the Inquisition (as opposed to bad ideas about ends justifying means) (though the fact that I don't know it certainly doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).  Certainly the Inquisition did brutal and unChristlike things ostensibly in the name of Christ.  Does this make them not-Christian?  If so, how is that reconciled with the Christian doctrine of forgiveness through grace?  If I am a Christian, and commit a grave evil through weakness or pride or hate, do I cease being a Christian?  Do I start being one again once I repent and am forgiven?

This isn't just angels-on-pinheads.  The well-Y-was-not-an-X argument is a rhetorical dodge employed in politics and religion to minimize wrongs by favored groups.  The better and more honest approach is to admit that all groups run by humans are susceptible to wrongs, and to be open to inquiry as to whether the history or doctrine of a particular group makes it prone to wrong.


I saw this post after writing mine. Agreed about grace and forgiveness etc and I hope that the doctrinial items mentioned below support why I made the claim.

As for Mormons they are not like Catholics- who do preach the central Christian message with the baggage of Church tradition (much of which contradicts the Bible directly), but teach a wholly different 'gospel' and are without doubt not Christians.

Oh and I'm not stating that Catholics cannot be Christians, I'm stating that most of them probably have not come to saving faith and therefore are not.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 05:27:14 PM by ATB » Logged
ATB
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« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2008, 05:25:51 PM »

Quote from: ATB on January 22, 2008, 03:37:05 PM

How about this: How can a moral relativist cast judgement against those who torture? It's their truth that torture is okay.  It's not your truth, but so what. It's theirs and who are you to judge?

Well, unbreakable?
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« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2008, 05:31:36 PM »

Quote from: ATB on January 22, 2008, 05:25:51 PM

Quote from: ATB on January 22, 2008, 03:37:05 PM

How about this: How can a moral relativist cast judgement against those who torture? It's their truth that torture is okay.  It's not your truth, but so what. It's theirs and who are you to judge?

Well, unbreakable?

I'm not even sure what you are getting at there.  What I took away from it was you calling me a moral relativist, which I most certainly am not.  Therefore, I didn't find it worth addressing.
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CSL
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« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2008, 05:59:26 PM »

Quote from: ATB on January 22, 2008, 05:22:11 PM

The whole notion of the inquisition- to root out heretics and in many cases kill them- is a uniquely Catholic proposition and is not even hinted at in the NT.  So the practice rooted in the faulty doctrine upon which the Catholic church is based leads me to question whether they were in fact Christians, so much as powermad men leading men astray.

An amusing idea, by that same logic Protestants are not Christian because they lead the faithful astray from the Catholic religion and in the process damn them to an enternity of suffering - they're leaders, such as Calvin and Zwingli are essentially powermad men leading men astray.

Plus, the only thing uniquely Catholic about the inquisition was its institutionalism - many Protestant sects encouraged or propogated violence or religious persecution to just the same extent as the Catholic Church - see the case of the Mormons for example.
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« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2008, 06:04:50 PM »

It's also highly unlikely Jesus would have been a big supporter of slavery, and yet most Christian religious leaders were completely supportive of institutionalized slavery, even going so far as to say certain races did not have a soul, or were not "really human".
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DarkEL
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« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2008, 06:09:27 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on January 22, 2008, 05:14:39 PM

Quote from: DarkEL on January 22, 2008, 04:28:28 PM

Quote from: ATB on January 22, 2008, 03:37:05 PM

With regard to the Inquisition: The simple answer is they were not Christians. Period.

I would disagree with you on this point. They may not have been protestants but they were Christian.

Christians doing very evil things of course - but that doesn't negate the fact that they were Christian and most likely still went to heaven.

You can't claim that someone wasn't christian because they did bad things anymore than unbreakable can claim that all christians are evil because some did some bad things

Dear DarkEL,

You are wrong in your logic in this post due to the following reasons:

**** Irrelevant comparisons deleted ****

Har har - you are soooo clever!!!
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« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2008, 06:18:46 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on January 22, 2008, 06:04:50 PM

It's also highly unlikely Jesus would have been a big supporter of slavery, and yet most Christian religious leaders were completely supportive of institutionalized slavery, even going so far as to say certain races did not have a soul, or were not "really human".

Yeppers - Christian leaders are human and as such there is plenty of evidence that they can hold stupid and prejudiced beliefs. But of course - many non-christians of this same time held the exact same beliefs about slaves - so let's not try and paint a distorted picture - shall we? Society in general was at fault - not just a religious group.

This just goes back to my main issues with your arguments. I don't disagree with you that the Church has done things wrong at times or that there are people who are Christian that believe and do things that are evil. And Yes the republican party has tried to represent themselves as the "religious" party and yet all the while do things that show contempt for human rights and make decisions based solely on their own greed.

All those things are accurate and wrong (in the moral sense)

But you keep using those few examples to try and paint a much broader brush across the entire group of people and that's just as offensive because it's just prejudice.
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« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2008, 06:29:41 PM »

Quote from: DarkEL on January 22, 2008, 06:18:46 PM

Yeppers - Christian leaders are human and as such there is plenty of evidence that they can hold stupid and prejudiced beliefs. But of course - many non-christians of this same time held the exact same beliefs about slaves - so let's not try and paint a distorted picture - shall we? Society in general was at fault - not just a religious group.

What other religious groups accepted the premise of mass economic slavery for plantation labour? Views about slavery held by European sugar producers and the like were vastly different from for example, the indigenous groups that practiced slavery in the interior of Africa.
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2008, 06:34:42 PM »

Quote from: CSL on January 22, 2008, 06:29:41 PM

Quote from: DarkEL on January 22, 2008, 06:18:46 PM

Yeppers - Christian leaders are human and as such there is plenty of evidence that they can hold stupid and prejudiced beliefs. But of course - many non-christians of this same time held the exact same beliefs about slaves - so let's not try and paint a distorted picture - shall we? Society in general was at fault - not just a religious group.

What other religious groups accepted the premise of mass economic slavery for plantation labour? Views about slavery held by European sugar producers and the like were vastly different from for example, the indigenous groups that practiced slavery in the interior of Africa.

What other religious group had the need to develop doctrines regarding mass economic behavior?  Did they have mass economic behavior comparable to the sugar trade?
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2008, 06:37:21 PM »

Quote from: ATB on January 22, 2008, 05:25:22 PM

Quote from: Mr. Fed on January 22, 2008, 05:20:19 PM


It would be easy to say their acts were not Christian or that they fell short of what Christians are called upon to do.  I think saying that they were not Christians is a harder argument, however.  Were they not Christians because of some central doctrinal heresy, the way many argue that Mormons are not Christians?  I am unaware of any such central heresy among the Inquisition (as opposed to bad ideas about ends justifying means) (though the fact that I don't know it certainly doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).  Certainly the Inquisition did brutal and unChristlike things ostensibly in the name of Christ.  Does this make them not-Christian?  If so, how is that reconciled with the Christian doctrine of forgiveness through grace?  If I am a Christian, and commit a grave evil through weakness or pride or hate, do I cease being a Christian?  Do I start being one again once I repent and am forgiven?

This isn't just angels-on-pinheads.  The well-Y-was-not-an-X argument is a rhetorical dodge employed in politics and religion to minimize wrongs by favored groups.  The better and more honest approach is to admit that all groups run by humans are susceptible to wrongs, and to be open to inquiry as to whether the history or doctrine of a particular group makes it prone to wrong.


I saw this post after writing mine. Agreed about grace and forgiveness etc and I hope that the doctrinial items mentioned below support why I made the claim.

As for Mormons they are not like Catholics- who do preach the central Christian message with the baggage of Church tradition (much of which contradicts the Bible directly), but teach a wholly different 'gospel' and are without doubt not Christians.

Oh and I'm not stating that Catholics cannot be Christians, I'm stating that most of them probably have not come to saving faith and therefore are not.

Doesn't that make it something of a misleading non-sequitur to say that the perpetrators of the Inquisition are not Christians, if what disqualifies them is not their actions in the Inquisition, but being Catholic? 
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DarkEL
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2008, 06:38:13 PM »

Quote from: CSL on January 22, 2008, 06:29:41 PM

Quote from: DarkEL on January 22, 2008, 06:18:46 PM

Yeppers - Christian leaders are human and as such there is plenty of evidence that they can hold stupid and prejudiced beliefs. But of course - many non-christians of this same time held the exact same beliefs about slaves - so let's not try and paint a distorted picture - shall we? Society in general was at fault - not just a religious group.

What other religious groups accepted the premise of mass economic slavery for plantation labour? Views about slavery held by European sugar producers and the like were vastly different from for example, the indigenous groups that practiced slavery in the interior of Africa.

I wasn't referring to any other religious groups but merely commenting that those beliefs were held by both religious and non-religious people in that specific society. They were generally accepted social beliefs held here in America but not specific to any one group. No one group was innocent or guilty.

At the same time - I'm sure there were also small groups of athiests, christians, and other religious people that abhored the practice of slavery.
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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2008, 06:42:57 PM »

Quote from: DarkEL on January 22, 2008, 06:09:27 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on January 22, 2008, 05:14:39 PM

Quote from: DarkEL on January 22, 2008, 04:28:28 PM

Quote from: ATB on January 22, 2008, 03:37:05 PM

With regard to the Inquisition: The simple answer is they were not Christians. Period.

I would disagree with you on this point. They may not have been protestants but they were Christian.

Christians doing very evil things of course - but that doesn't negate the fact that they were Christian and most likely still went to heaven.

You can't claim that someone wasn't christian because they did bad things anymore than unbreakable can claim that all christians are evil because some did some bad things

Dear DarkEL,

You are wrong in your logic in this post due to the following reasons:

**** Irrelevant comparisons deleted ****

Har har - you are soooo clever!!!

I wasn't trying to be clever.  I was simply point out that your post was a rewording of the exact same thing you bashed me for.

Quote from: DarkEL on January 22, 2008, 06:18:46 PM

But you keep using those few examples to try and paint a much broader brush across the entire group of people and that's just as offensive because it's just prejudice.

Or perhaps you just read too much into it.  Or, to be precise, you read the wrong things into it.
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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2008, 06:44:12 PM »

Quote from: ATB on January 22, 2008, 05:25:22 PM

Quote from: Mr. Fed on January 22, 2008, 05:20:19 PM


It would be easy to say their acts were not Christian or that they fell short of what Christians are called upon to do.  I think saying that they were not Christians is a harder argument, however.  Were they not Christians because of some central doctrinal heresy, the way many argue that Mormons are not Christians?  I am unaware of any such central heresy among the Inquisition (as opposed to bad ideas about ends justifying means) (though the fact that I don't know it certainly doesn't mean that it doesn't exist).  Certainly the Inquisition did brutal and unChristlike things ostensibly in the name of Christ.  Does this make them not-Christian?  If so, how is that reconciled with the Christian doctrine of forgiveness through grace?  If I am a Christian, and commit a grave evil through weakness or pride or hate, do I cease being a Christian?  Do I start being one again once I repent and am forgiven?

This isn't just angels-on-pinheads.  The well-Y-was-not-an-X argument is a rhetorical dodge employed in politics and religion to minimize wrongs by favored groups.  The better and more honest approach is to admit that all groups run by humans are susceptible to wrongs, and to be open to inquiry as to whether the history or doctrine of a particular group makes it prone to wrong.


I saw this post after writing mine. Agreed about grace and forgiveness etc and I hope that the doctrinial items mentioned below support why I made the claim.

As for Mormons they are not like Catholics- who do preach the central Christian message with the baggage of Church tradition (much of which contradicts the Bible directly), but teach a wholly different 'gospel' and are without doubt not Christians.

Oh and I'm not stating that Catholics cannot be Christians, I'm stating that most of them probably have not come to saving faith and therefore are not.

By definition Catholics are Christians.  Protestantism is nothing more than a branch from Catholism (Martin Luther and the Reformation, circa 1520 or so).  I.e., your belief that "most of them...are not" is entirely unsupportable.  The same goes for Mormons.

Don't they teach this in school now?  The Reformation was one of the biggest events in the last 1,000 years.

That's like the Sunnis and Shi'a trying to say the other religion isn't Islam.  While there are differences, fundamentally both are Islamic. 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 06:47:58 PM by Blackadar » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2008, 06:53:07 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on January 22, 2008, 06:42:57 PM

I wasn't trying to be clever.  I was simply point out that your post was a rewording of the exact same thing you bashed me for.

I think the difference is that I view mine as being fair to both sides -- i.e. saying that Yes - some Christians do wicked, evil things. And that doing wicked, evil things doesn't automatically make you a non-christian.

Whereas your original post that I was responding to reads as all christians support torture.

So I don't think out posts were even in the same ballpark.
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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2008, 07:05:58 PM »

Quote from: DarkEL on January 22, 2008, 06:53:07 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on January 22, 2008, 06:42:57 PM

I wasn't trying to be clever.  I was simply point out that your post was a rewording of the exact same thing you bashed me for.

I think the difference is that I view mine as being fair to both sides -- i.e. saying that Yes - some Christians do wicked, evil things. And that doing wicked, evil things doesn't automatically make you a non-christian.

Whereas your original post that I was responding to reads as all christians support torture.

So I don't think out posts were even in the same ballpark.

"I've always been mystified how people worshiping a deity who was tortured to death can be the staunchest supporters of torture."

I think you need to leave your baggage at the door.  It's effecting your reading comprehension.

Your post was, as I said, a rewording of what I wrote.  I wasn't being clever, I was pointing it out to you.  But hey, if you think agreeing with me is the worst thing in the world, it's not going to hurt my feelings.  Plenty of people here would rather slash their own wrists than be caught agreeing with anything I say.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 07:09:09 PM by unbreakable » Logged
DarkEL
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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2008, 07:50:32 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on January 22, 2008, 07:05:58 PM

"I've always been mystified how people worshiping a deity who was tortured to death can be the staunchest supporters of torture."

I think you need to leave your baggage at the door.  It's effecting your reading comprehension.

Your post was, as I said, a rewording of what I wrote.  I wasn't being clever, I was pointing it out to you.  But hey, if you think agreeing with me is the worst thing in the world, it's not going to hurt my feelings.  Plenty of people here would rather slash their own wrists than be caught agreeing with anything I say.

Nice try.

But how about something along the lines "I've always been mystified how some people worshiping a deity who was tortured to death can be the staunchest supporters of torture."

That would have had a much clearer implication that you weren't referring to all the people who worshiped a deity -- assuming that people are inclined to believe you. Which based on your history - I would be willing to bet isn't the case.

But you know .. feel free to back-peddle all you want so you can enjoy your daily dose of feeling like you're being martyred and everyone just hates you or is out to get you (oh yes - those "report to moderator" submissions go to me as well).

I mean it's not like the only common link in all these incidents is you. So let's not turn on that pattern recognition capability that's inherent within the species and I don't know... maybe figure out that perhaps there's something about certain things that you say or the way that you say them that might cause people to realize just how many issues you really have.

I'm willing to bet that in real life you're probably a decent enough guy. But you should reconsider your online persona sometime - eventually your rejection will go from imagined to real life if you don't.
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