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Author Topic: Can someone please tell this senile moron to shut up?  (Read 8851 times)
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Brendan
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« Reply #80 on: April 14, 2008, 08:08:20 PM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 07:41:04 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 07:16:42 PM

Electronic Dan's sources earlier cite their edge in the popular vote as tenuous - I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't invalidate their power.  You can't negotiate just with the minority party; they don't control the government.

Just to point out,  Abbas dissolved the Palestinian government when Hamas started it's civil war.  The end result being Hamas is in de facto control of Gaza and Fatah controls the West Bank, while de jure Abbas controls the government.

Which means that you can negotiate with Fatah on the West Bank.

Good point.


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Hopefully we can bring Hamas to a more moderate stance on co-existence.

I won't hold my breath.

Flies, vinegar, honey, etc.  It's worked in other cases; I don't think this one is so unique that it precludes the same solution.
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IkeVandergraaf
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« Reply #81 on: April 14, 2008, 08:34:39 PM »

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Can someone please tell this senile moron to shut up?

Darkstar, shut up.
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« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2008, 08:38:28 PM »

I think I love you, Ike.
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gellar
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« Reply #83 on: April 14, 2008, 09:33:02 PM »

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on April 14, 2008, 08:34:39 PM

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Can someone please tell this senile moron to shut up?

Darkstar, shut up.

Nice.

gellar
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rickfc
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Why so serious?


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« Reply #84 on: April 14, 2008, 09:36:48 PM »

Quote from: gellar on April 14, 2008, 09:33:02 PM

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on April 14, 2008, 08:34:39 PM

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Can someone please tell this senile moron to shut up?

Darkstar, shut up.

Nice.

gellar

agreed
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unbreakable
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« Reply #85 on: April 14, 2008, 09:39:59 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 04:45:45 PM

I do agree with the title, however.  A senile moron should shut up.
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rickfc
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« Reply #86 on: April 14, 2008, 09:42:29 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 14, 2008, 09:39:59 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 04:45:45 PM

I do agree with the title, however.  A senile moron should shut up.

You're quoting yourself?  That's just lame...  Tongue
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unbreakable
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« Reply #87 on: April 14, 2008, 09:56:14 PM »

Just proving a point.
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CSL
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« Reply #88 on: April 14, 2008, 10:20:01 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 14, 2008, 09:56:14 PM

Just proving a point.

That your lame?
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gellar
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« Reply #89 on: April 14, 2008, 11:06:34 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 14, 2008, 09:39:59 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 04:45:45 PM

I do agree with the title, however.  A senile moron should shut up.

Ike did it better.  Sorry.

gellar
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CeeKay
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« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2008, 12:52:44 AM »

Quote from: IkeVandergraaf on April 14, 2008, 08:34:39 PM

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Can someone please tell this senile moron to shut up?

Darkstar, shut up.

oh snap!
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« Reply #91 on: April 15, 2008, 12:52:57 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 08:38:28 PM

I think I love you, Ike.

oh eeeeewwwwwww.......
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #92 on: April 15, 2008, 03:24:27 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 08:08:20 PM



Flies, vinegar, honey, etc.  It's worked in other cases; I don't think this one is so unique that it precludes the same solution.

I think you overestimate the ease with which some terrorist groups willing to give up their tactics.  It took the PLO being a decade of being crippled in Tunesia, with Arafat humiliated after supporting Saddam and the US and Israel literally throwing him a lifeline to get him to publicly state that he was going to give up terrorism and would agree to a two state solution.  And even then he simply used that lifeline to claw back into power and continue the terrorism for more than another decade.  It was only the death of Arafat and the conflict with Israel that Fatah has begun to show serious signs of moderation (and yet there are still factions within Fatah that continue to sponsor terrorism).

So you'll forgive me if I remain skeptical.
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Brendan
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« Reply #93 on: April 15, 2008, 05:16:45 AM »

I think skepticism is warranted given the history of the region.  The Israelis are certainly not going to stop killing leaders of Hamas and the various Fatah factions.  I'm just positing the idea that perhaps "exterminate all the brutes" is not going to achieve the best results.
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msduncan
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« Reply #94 on: April 15, 2008, 11:20:25 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 15, 2008, 05:16:45 AM

I think skepticism is warranted given the history of the region.  The Israelis are certainly not going to stop killing leaders of Hamas and the various Fatah factions.  I'm just positing the idea that perhaps "exterminate all the brutes" is not going to achieve the best results.
I would agree with that and also say that the Fatah and Hamas aren't going to stop killing Israelis.
In other words, I don't think there is a peace process, agreement, plan, etc yet invented that will stop them from killing each other.   And this belief isn't based on religious convictions either -- it's based on the thought that these people have been killing each other for so long that neither side is going to stop.  Ever.   Or at least in our lifetimes.
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Brendan
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« Reply #95 on: April 21, 2008, 08:58:06 PM »

So, today's result:

Quote
The leader of Hamas said Monday that his Palestinian militant group would offer Israel a 10-year "hudna," or truce, as implicit proof of recognition of Israel if it withdrew from all lands it seized in the 1967 Middle East War.

Khaled Mashaal told The Associated Press that he made the offer to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter in talks on Saturday. "We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition," Mashaal said.

In his comments Monday, Mashaal used the Arabic word "hudna," meaning truce, which is more concrete than "tahdiya" a period of calm which Hamas often uses to describe a simple cease-fire.  "Hudna" implies a recognition of the other party's existence.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #96 on: April 21, 2008, 09:55:44 PM »

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The leader of Hamas said Monday that his Palestinian militant group would offer Israel a 10-year "hudna," or truce, as implicit proof of recognition of Israel if it withdrew from all lands it seized in the 1967 Middle East War.

Khaled Mashaal told The Associated Press that he made the offer to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter in talks on Saturday. "We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition," Mashaal said.


Color me unimpressed.  They've offered these "10 year truces" in the past.



I wish I had the article I read earlier, which said something to the effect that Hamas would, in theory, recognize a peace deal if Abbas negotiates it with Israel, but it would have to be done via a referendum, in theory anyway because they didn't approve of a referendum and they wouldn't be bound by the peace treaty even if it was approved.  In theory.   saywhat
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Brendan
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« Reply #97 on: April 21, 2008, 09:57:26 PM »

The NPR story I just heard claims that this is a step beyond their previous commitments because of the implied recognition that Israel's here to stay (though it stops short of formal recognition of Israel as a state, etc, etc).  Of course, it hinges on the Israelis pulling back to the 1967 borders, which won't happen anyway.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #98 on: April 21, 2008, 10:38:30 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 21, 2008, 09:57:26 PM

The NPR story I just heard claims that this is a step beyond their previous commitments because of the implied recognition that Israel's here to stay (though it stops short of formal recognition of Israel as a state, etc, etc).

It's not the first  time Hamas has offered a "Hudna".  And guess what?  They still say they 'won't recognise Israel'
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Brendan
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« Reply #99 on: April 21, 2008, 10:41:24 PM »

Interesting - I hadn't seen that this "hudna" offer'd been proferred before.  Well, that's not as promising.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #100 on: June 09, 2008, 11:52:18 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 10:30:51 PM

They aren't a terrorist group now... they are a legitimate government.

Interestingly, a majority of Palestinians don't consider Hamas their legitimate government

Quote
Fifty-nine percent recognise Prime Minister Salam Fayyad government as the legitimate one while 24 percent see Haneya's government as the true one.
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