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Author Topic: Can someone please tell this senile moron to shut up?  (Read 7645 times)
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2008, 01:52:07 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:28:01 AM

Fooled me.  I guess you're just a contrarian.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a contrarian. 

Quote
Again, Hamas won in a landslide, taking far more seats than their primary opponent. 

Yes, but that "landslide" is not evident in the support of the people.  (And that support has dropped)

Quote
They took advantage of their knowledge of the electoral process there, but that's knowledge that Fatah also had. This doc you've pointed to reads "Our analysis shows that Hamas was more organized in 'gaming' the winner-take-all system than Fatah."

Actually, not really.  No analyst predicted a Hamas victory.  Hell, Hamas was probably one of the ones that was most surprised.  Their victory in seats was as much luck as it was campaigning against Fatah's corruption.

Election systems are important, but an election system isn't good simply by the nature of being an election system.  It has to be transparent and well understood, reflect the support of the people, be encompassed by democratic reforms such as free press, political parties that don't posses armies and so on.

Yay, the Palestinians had an election.  Forgive me if I don't consider them a shining example of democracy.
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Brendan
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« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2008, 01:52:35 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:48:45 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:30:58 AM

End them as a threat?  Ever hear of the PLO?

How are the Fedayeen at all related to the PLO?

The PLO were founded by eight fedayeen groups including Fatah.
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Brendan
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« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2008, 01:53:04 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:50:29 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:32:59 AM

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:23:07 AM

Try reading about the Battle of Gaza.

What, in World War I?  You'll need to explain to me why that's relevant.

Try lookup up the one that took place in this century.

Find me a link and I'll read it.  I've done all the heavy lifting for you so far.
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Brendan
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« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2008, 01:59:15 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:52:07 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:28:01 AM

They took advantage of their knowledge of the electoral process there, but that's knowledge that Fatah also had. This doc you've pointed to reads "Our analysis shows that Hamas was more organized in 'gaming' the winner-take-all system than Fatah."

Actually, not really.  No analyst predicted a Hamas victory.  Hell, Hamas was probably one of the ones that was most surprised.  Their victory in seats was as much luck as it was campaigning against Fatah's corruption.

Election systems are important, but an election system isn't good simply by the nature of being an election system.  It has to be transparent and well understood, reflect the support of the people, be encompassed by democratic reforms such as free press, political parties that don't posses armies and so on.

Your line of reasoning is bizarre.  I'm sure Hamas was not surprised; as evidenced by that doc you linked to earlier, they went to a great deal of effort to contest a bunch of seats, and they limited the number of candidates so that they wouldn't fracture the vote more than necessary.  That's just electioneering.  There's nothing hidden about the result of the election.

Ultimately, I don't even know what your point is; Hamas won a democratic election.  They're the government there.  Our government is unhappy with the result, and went to some effort to illegally overturn it.  Jimmy Carter disagrees with our executive branch's stonewalling and attempted to negotiate with them.  Republicans are angry at him.  That's the state of the world.  What are you proposing should be done differently?  Apparently you don't condone the mass slaughter tactic, so I'm a little lost.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2008, 02:01:38 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:53:04 AM

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:50:29 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:32:59 AM

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:23:07 AM

Try reading about the Battle of Gaza.

What, in World War I?  You'll need to explain to me why that's relevant.

Try lookup up the one that took place in this century.

Find me a link and I'll read it.  I've done all the heavy lifting for you so far.

My wikifoo is stronger than yours.
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Brendan
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« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2008, 02:20:06 AM »

So, this is an event that happened a year and a half after the elections.  Maybe you can come up with a flow chart with big boxes that explains how this affected the choices available to the voters.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2008, 02:26:30 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:59:15 AM

Your line of reasoning is bizarre.  I'm sure Hamas was not surprised;

Uh, no.  Even Hamas leaders publicly stated that they were suprised they had won.  Most people were expecting that neither Hamas and Fatah would win an outright majority and would have to form a coalition government.

Quote
Ultimately, I don't even know what your point is; Hamas won a democratic election. 

Hamas won an election.  As I stated before, there is more than just an election necessary for Palestine to become an example of democracy.

Quote
Republicans are angry at him.

It's  not just Republicans who disagree with him.  Obama and Clinton and other democrats have as well.

Quote
What are you proposing should be done differently?

Err, not much.,  Continue to isolate Hamas and prevent them from rearming.  Continue to aid Fatah in the west bank so long as they show that they are willing to work towards peace.  And continue to pat Jimmy Carter on the head as he continues to try to be cozy with dictators and terrorists.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2008, 02:31:52 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 02:20:06 AM

So, this is an event that happened a year and a half after the elections.  Maybe you can come up with a flow chart with big boxes that explains how this affected the choices available to the voters.

This kind of thing (albeit not on the scale of war) had been going on for years.  But that's not my point.  If after the Republicans had won a congressional majority in 1994, they proceeded to kill or kick out any democrat in any "red" state, would we consider them to be the legitimate leadership of a democracy?

Or does democracy maybe include democratic institutions that frown on that kind of thing?
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« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2008, 02:33:38 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 02:26:30 AM

It's  not just Republicans who disagree with him.  Obama and Clinton and other democrats have as well.

Him who?  Mr. Hamas?


Quote
Hamas won an election.  As I stated before, there is more than just an election necessary for Palestine to become an example of democracy.

I believe the first necessary step would be paying attention to the results of an election.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 02:37:14 AM by unbreakable » Logged
Brendan
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« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2008, 02:36:58 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 02:26:30 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:59:15 AM

Your line of reasoning is bizarre.  I'm sure Hamas was not surprised;

Uh, no.  Even Hamas leaders publicly stated that they were suprised they had won.  Most people were expecting that neither Hamas and Fatah would win an outright majority and would have to form a coalition government.

Quote
Ultimately, I don't even know what your point is; Hamas won a democratic election. 

Hamas won an election.  As I stated before, there is more than just an election necessary for Palestine to become an example of democracy.

The election was democratic.  That's not questionable given the reports from international observers.  Whether Palestine is a good "example of democracy" is a different issue, and it's going to be hard to measure as long as our government and the Israelis continue to fuck with their internal politics - in fact, it never had a chance, given the amount we'd already fucked with their internal politics.
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Brendan
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« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2008, 02:39:06 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 02:31:52 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 02:20:06 AM

So, this is an event that happened a year and a half after the elections.  Maybe you can come up with a flow chart with big boxes that explains how this affected the choices available to the voters.

This kind of thing (albeit not on the scale of war) had been going on for years.  But that's not my point.  If after the Republicans had won a congressional majority in 1994, they proceeded to kill or kick out any democrat in any "red" state, would we consider them to be the legitimate leadership of a democracy?

Or does democracy maybe include democratic institutions that frown on that kind of thing?

I think it's pretty stupid to compare a mature democracy of two hundred years with one of two years.  Particularly given a pretty big stain in our own history.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2008, 02:39:56 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 02:36:58 AM


The election was democratic.

I disagree - for multiple reasons I've already given.
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Brendan
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« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2008, 02:43:48 AM »

Yes, well, you're wrong.

Here's the NDI/Carter Center report on them with the following summary:

Quote
The elections were characterized by the following positive developments.


Within the bounds of an occupied territory, the legal framework for the elections generally compared favorably to international standards.

The adoption of a voluntary code of conduct by all political parties set an important precedent, though not all points were consistently implemented.

The Central Election Commission (CEC) operated with a high level of confidence among the political contestants and the Palestinian population.

The election campaign proceeded relatively peacefully and allowed voters to obtain abundant information about the contestants.

Except for restraints in East Jerusalem, the election process was open and highly competitive.

Election day was generally peaceful, and the elections thus far appear to be well administered under the difficult circumstances of ongoing conflict and occupation.

A large number of Palestinians turned out to vote and were able to exercise their franchise without major difficulties. Voting procedures for illiterate persons generally curbed problems noted in prior elections.

Israeli authorities generally eased travel through checkpoints to facilitate freedom of movement for election day processes.

A significant number of political party and candidate agents and a significant number of nonpartisan Palestinian election observers were present in the polls, providing transparency to the process and helping to ensure its integrity.

Women played a large role in the election process as election officials, party and candidate agents and nonpartisan observers. The legal framework required 20 percent of the names on the party lists for proportional representation seats be women, though few women appeared as candidates for district-based majoritarian seats.


The elections, however, were not without problems, including the following developments.


Arrangements for voting in East Jerusalem were agreed to late in the process by Israeli authorities, while possibilities for voting in their neighborhoods remained inadequate for Palestinian voters in East Jerusalem. Conditions in East Jerusalem post offices did not provide voting privacy, as voters marked ballots on counters in view of postal workers.

Campaigning by virtually all parties and many independent candidates was widespread on election day in violation of the election law, and, though in most instances such campaigning was peaceful, it contributed to tensions and scattered incidents of violence, particularly in Gaza and some localities in the Hebron governorate (Beit Awwa and Ash Shuyuk).

Though freedom of movement was generally unobstructed on election day, there were numerous confirmed reports that political candidates, campaign workers and election workers were unable to move satisfactorily through checkpoints during the campaign period that began on January 3.

While parties and candidates were able to get out their messages, and they received free access to public media through regulated spots, news coverage documented by professional Palestinian and international media monitors noted significant bias, and paid political advertisements were not offered at the same price to all candidates by certain media outlets.

There were credible reports of use of Palestinian Authority resources for the benefit of Fateh candidates and numerous reports of campaigning in many mosques on behalf of Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) candidates.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2008, 02:54:22 AM »

Quote
I disagree - for multiple reasons I've already given.

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 02:43:48 AM

Yes, well, you're wrong.


OK, I admit it, I don't disagree with you.  retard
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Brendan
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« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2008, 02:55:34 AM »

Ah, grammatical semantics.  The last resort.
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« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2008, 03:03:58 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 02:55:34 AM

Ah, grammatical semantics.  The last resort.

I thought that was Linux.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2008, 03:09:54 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on April 14, 2008, 03:03:58 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 02:55:34 AM

Ah, grammatical semantics.  The last resort.

I thought that was Linux.

I thought it was 9
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« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2008, 03:17:35 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 03:09:54 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on April 14, 2008, 03:03:58 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 02:55:34 AM

Ah, grammatical semantics.  The last resort.

I thought that was Linux.

I thought it was 9

did Papa Roach make that game?
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« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2008, 06:33:51 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 13, 2008, 11:21:36 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 10:30:51 PM


BTW, Hamas was the democratically elected government of Palestine.  They aren't a terrorist group now... they are a legitimate government.

While it's debatable that having elections where there aren't meaningful democratic institutions, where the parties intimidate civilians, eliminate competitors, possess militaries and take over parts of the Gaza strip through warfare counts as a legitimately democratically elected government, that's besides the issue.  They're still  a terrorist group.  And going after them is no more "genocide" then eliminating the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

When you don't like the outcome of an election, then the election must be flawed.slywink
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« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2008, 01:50:51 PM »

Sorry so late to the party.  This started out a bit inflammatory at best and certainly borders on hate speech.  I'm glad to see that at least some political conversation has taken place.  I'll keep the thread open as long as it doesn't degenerate...
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« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2008, 04:38:02 PM »

I hate to say it folks, but regardless of what happened before it. Hamas and other groups are nothing more then a cancer that if allowed to spread through hate filled retehoric will only kill any real chance of peace. I'm all for hunting every last living one of these jihadist bumfucks and using systematically applied hot lead to the back of the temporal region thereby facilitating their transition to room temprature.

Its not geneocide if they are striving to wipe you off the face of the earth.
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Brendan
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« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2008, 04:50:38 PM »

We should get you into the State Department.  You're a natural diplomat.

Killing just radicalizes more and more people and exacerbates things.  What was your opinion in the 80s and 90s of another famous terrorist organization that went into politics?
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« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2008, 06:34:38 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:50:38 PM

We should get you into the State Department.  You're a natural diplomat.

Killing just radicalizes more and more people and exacerbates things.  What was your opinion in the 80s and 90s of another famous terrorist organization that went into politics?

Sinn Fein has been a political party since the early twentieth century.
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« Reply #63 on: April 14, 2008, 06:50:33 PM »

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:34:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:50:38 PM

We should get you into the State Department.  You're a natural diplomat.

Killing just radicalizes more and more people and exacerbates things.  What was your opinion in the 80s and 90s of another famous terrorist organization that went into politics?

Sinn Fein has been a political party since the early twentieth century.

I think he might be referring to it's links to the IRA.  Either way comparing Sinn Fein to Hamas is kind of a stretch.  Hamas' stated goal is the elimination of the state of Israel.  I absolutely think the only way the Israeli/Palestinian situation will be resolved is through negotiation.  But Hamas should not represent the Palestinians, it should be Fatah.  Acts of terrorism should never be legitemized.  The United States will never negotiate with Hamas.
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« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2008, 06:53:00 PM »

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:34:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:50:38 PM

We should get you into the State Department.  You're a natural diplomat.

Killing just radicalizes more and more people and exacerbates things.  What was your opinion in the 80s and 90s of another famous terrorist organization that went into politics?

Sinn Fein has been a political party since the early twentieth century.

Are you being naive, or are you being obtuse?
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #65 on: April 14, 2008, 06:55:30 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 06:53:00 PM

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:34:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:50:38 PM

We should get you into the State Department.  You're a natural diplomat.

Killing just radicalizes more and more people and exacerbates things.  What was your opinion in the 80s and 90s of another famous terrorist organization that went into politics?

Sinn Fein has been a political party since the early twentieth century.

Are you being naive, or are you being obtuse?

Cute.

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:32:59 AM

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:23:07 AM

Try reading about the Battle of Gaza.

What, in World War I?  You'll need to explain to me why that's relevant.
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Brendan
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« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2008, 06:57:21 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on April 14, 2008, 06:50:33 PM

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:34:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:50:38 PM

We should get you into the State Department.  You're a natural diplomat.

Killing just radicalizes more and more people and exacerbates things.  What was your opinion in the 80s and 90s of another famous terrorist organization that went into politics?

Sinn Fein has been a political party since the early twentieth century.

I think he might be referring to it's links to the IRA.  Either way comparing Sinn Fein to Hamas is kind of a stretch.  Hamas' stated goal is the elimination of the state of Israel.  I absolutely think the only way the Israeli/Palestinian situation will be resolved is through negotiation.  But Hamas should not represent the Palestinians, it should be Fatah.  Acts of terrorism should never be legitemized.  The United States will never negotiate with Hamas.

I'm beginning to think that we should have a book club so that everyone can get some historical perspective here.  Fatah is a former terrorist organization.  Fatah helped to found the PLO.  Fatah killed hundreds, if not thousands, of Israeli citizens before renouncing terrorism in the early 90s.  And yet, we negotiate with Fatah, just like we will eventually have to do with Hamas which is the legitimate victor of a democratic election in the Palestinian territory.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2008, 06:58:29 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on April 14, 2008, 06:50:33 PM

Hamas' stated goal is the elimination of the state of Israel.  I absolutely think the only way the Israeli/Palestinian situation will be resolved is through negotiation.  But Hamas should not represent the Palestinians, it should be Fatah.  Acts of terrorism should never be legitemized.  The United States will never negotiate with Hamas.

Just like they would never negotiate with the PLO.  Well, to be fair, they changed their "stated" goal to no longer be the elimination of Israel, and with the death of Arafat, it's leadership may actually mean it.  slywink
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« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2008, 06:58:54 PM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 06:55:30 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 06:53:00 PM

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:34:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:50:38 PM

We should get you into the State Department.  You're a natural diplomat.

Killing just radicalizes more and more people and exacerbates things.  What was your opinion in the 80s and 90s of another famous terrorist organization that went into politics?

Sinn Fein has been a political party since the early twentieth century.

Are you being naive, or are you being obtuse?

Cute.

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:32:59 AM

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:23:07 AM

Try reading about the Battle of Gaza.

What, in World War I?  You'll need to explain to me why that's relevant.

Hey, smart guy, because you were too pithy to provide a link at the time, I attempted to read up on your suggestion.  Here's the result:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22battle+of+gaza%22

None of those results point to what you're calling the "battle of gaza."
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« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2008, 06:59:28 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 06:53:00 PM

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:34:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:50:38 PM

We should get you into the State Department.  You're a natural diplomat.

Killing just radicalizes more and more people and exacerbates things.  What was your opinion in the 80s and 90s of another famous terrorist organization that went into politics?

Sinn Fein has been a political party since the early twentieth century.

Are you being naive, or are you being obtuse?

Maybe you should read your sources.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #70 on: April 14, 2008, 07:00:48 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 06:57:21 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on April 14, 2008, 06:50:33 PM

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:34:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:50:38 PM

We should get you into the State Department.  You're a natural diplomat.

Killing just radicalizes more and more people and exacerbates things.  What was your opinion in the 80s and 90s of another famous terrorist organization that went into politics?

Sinn Fein has been a political party since the early twentieth century.

I think he might be referring to it's links to the IRA.  Either way comparing Sinn Fein to Hamas is kind of a stretch.  Hamas' stated goal is the elimination of the state of Israel.  I absolutely think the only way the Israeli/Palestinian situation will be resolved is through negotiation.  But Hamas should not represent the Palestinians, it should be Fatah.  Acts of terrorism should never be legitemized.  The United States will never negotiate with Hamas.

I'm beginning to think that we should have a book club so that everyone can get some historical perspective here.  Fatah is a former terrorist organization.  Fatah helped to found the PLO.  Fatah killed hundreds, if not thousands, of Israeli citizens before renouncing terrorism in the early 90s.

And continued to do so afterwards.
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« Reply #71 on: April 14, 2008, 07:03:57 PM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 06:58:29 PM

Quote from: denoginizer on April 14, 2008, 06:50:33 PM

Hamas' stated goal is the elimination of the state of Israel.  I absolutely think the only way the Israeli/Palestinian situation will be resolved is through negotiation.  But Hamas should not represent the Palestinians, it should be Fatah.  Acts of terrorism should never be legitemized.  The United States will never negotiate with Hamas.

Just like they would never negotiate with the PLO.  Well, to be fair, they changed their "stated" goal to no longer be the elimination of Israel, and with the death of Arafat, it's leadership may actually mean it.  slywink

And not only that, but they are now receiving money from the US, as well as weapons and training.

Guess that whole "we don't negotiate with terrorists" thing is optional.  But then again, maybe they just gave all that stuff unsolicited, no negotiations involved.  Sort of like how we used to fund Al Qaeda (and maybe still do, since our tax money seems to be disappearing without a trace in the Middle East).
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« Reply #72 on: April 14, 2008, 07:04:29 PM »

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:59:28 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 06:53:00 PM

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:34:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:50:38 PM

We should get you into the State Department.  You're a natural diplomat.

Killing just radicalizes more and more people and exacerbates things.  What was your opinion in the 80s and 90s of another famous terrorist organization that went into politics?

Sinn Fein has been a political party since the early twentieth century.

Are you being naive, or are you being obtuse?

Maybe you should read your sources.

Gerry Adams, the president of Sinn Fein, was involved with the provisional IRA in the 70s.  You know - the IRA that murdered people in Northern Ireland and England.  Fortunately for the peace process, they decided to move more into the political realm and away from the violence that characterized their agenda thirty years ago.  But they were most certainly allied with "terrorists" unless you're a native of Boston, in which case they're "freedom fighters."
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« Reply #73 on: April 14, 2008, 07:07:37 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 07:04:29 PM

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:59:28 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 06:53:00 PM

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:34:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:50:38 PM

We should get you into the State Department.  You're a natural diplomat.

Killing just radicalizes more and more people and exacerbates things.  What was your opinion in the 80s and 90s of another famous terrorist organization that went into politics?

Sinn Fein has been a political party since the early twentieth century.

Are you being naive, or are you being obtuse?

Maybe you should read your sources.

Gerry Adams, the president of Sinn Fein, was involved with the provisional IRA in the 70s.  You know - the IRA that murdered people in Northern Ireland and England.  Fortunately for the peace process, they decided to move more into the political realm and away from the violence that characterized their agenda thirty years ago.  But they were most certainly allied with "terrorists" unless you're a native of Boston, in which case they're "freedom fighters."

I never said anything like that - I merely said that Sinn Fein has always been a political party. You can't parse sentences?
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Brendan
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« Reply #74 on: April 14, 2008, 07:09:39 PM »

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 07:07:37 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 07:04:29 PM

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:59:28 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 06:53:00 PM

Quote from: CSL on April 14, 2008, 06:34:38 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 04:50:38 PM

We should get you into the State Department.  You're a natural diplomat.

Killing just radicalizes more and more people and exacerbates things.  What was your opinion in the 80s and 90s of another famous terrorist organization that went into politics?

Sinn Fein has been a political party since the early twentieth century.

Are you being naive, or are you being obtuse?

Maybe you should read your sources.

Gerry Adams, the president of Sinn Fein, was involved with the provisional IRA in the 70s.  You know - the IRA that murdered people in Northern Ireland and England.  Fortunately for the peace process, they decided to move more into the political realm and away from the violence that characterized their agenda thirty years ago.  But they were most certainly allied with "terrorists" unless you're a native of Boston, in which case they're "freedom fighters."

I never said anything like that - I merely said that Sinn Fein has always been a political party. You can't parse sentences?

I guess the answer is "obtuse."

Quote
In the end, no reforms were implemented. In August 1969 Northern Ireland was convulsed by a wave of rioting and sectarian attacks, and British troops were sent in to support the (largely Unionist) Royal Ulster Constabulary. The violence, or rather the IRA's minimal response to it, discredited the leftist leadership of the republican movement. Amongst nationalists in Northern Ireland the letters IRA were often satirised as meaning "I Ran Away". At the same time, certain Fianna Fáil politicians in the Republic, fearful of Communism, were instrumental in financing and arming a splinter group that would be more concerned with mounting violent resistance to the northern government than fomenting island-wide socialist revolution.

The 1970 split occurred when the increasingly leftist-dominated leadership sought to end the historical policy of abstentionism and engage in non-violent constitutional politics. Although a majority of delegates supported the leadership, the two-thirds majority needed to change the party constitution did not materialise. The leadership saw the renewed sectarian conflict as "setting worker against worker" and declined to intervene on the traditionally Nationalist side. Disgusted by what they saw as the incompetence of the leadership, the traditionalists led by Seán Mac Stíofáin and Ruairí Ó Brádaigh split from the IRA and Sinn Féin to form the Provisional IRA and its political wing Provisional Sinn Féin (both bodies were known as 'provisional' after the formation of a 'provisional' army council by the rebels). The remainder of the party became known as Official Sinn Féin, and evolved into a political party which became a far left force in the Republic of Ireland in the 1980s.

The split was violent and periodic bouts of low level warfare were seen in Belfast and elsewhere. Many individual republicans took their time to decide which side of the division they were on, but in the end Official Sinn Féin remained very much a fringe party in Northern Ireland while its support increased gradually in the Republic. The opposite occurred to Provisional Sinn Féin, with the ironic result that two different Sinn Féin parties exposed the growing gap between the two states on the island of Ireland.
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denoginizer
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« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2008, 07:11:06 PM »

Fatah is not listed as a terrorist organization by any nation and has recognized Isreal's right to exist.  We are not negotiating with them in response to terrorism.  We are negotiating in response to them moderating. Hamas has not moderated.  They have not yet recoginzed Isreal's right to exist and continue to sponsor terrorist activity.  Why would we negotiate with Hamas over Fatah?
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Brendan
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« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2008, 07:16:42 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on April 14, 2008, 07:11:06 PM

Fatah is not listed as a terrorist organization by any nation and has recognized Isreal's right to exist.  We are not negotiating with them in response to terrorism.  We are negotiating in response to them moderating. Hamas has not moderated.  They have not yet recoginzed Isreal's right to exist and continue to sponsor terrorist activity.  Why would we negotiate with Hamas over Fatah?

Fatah is a founding part of the PLO, which has certainly been listed as a terrorist organization in the past (not sure of their status today).  Additionally, they're allied with the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, which is listed.  Fatah only changed their stance on Israel in the 90s.

We have to negotiate with Hamas because they're in control of the government and have popular support in the region.  Electronic Dan's sources earlier cite their edge in the popular vote as tenuous - I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't invalidate their power.  You can't negotiate just with the minority party; they don't control the government.  Hopefully we can bring Hamas to a more moderate stance on co-existence.  That's happened with Fatah, with the IRA, and with plenty of other former terrorist organizations who turned to politics for credibility.
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« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2008, 07:29:45 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 07:16:42 PM

Hopefully we can bring Hamas to a more moderate stance on co-existence.  That's happened with Fatah, with the IRA, and with plenty of other former terrorist organizations who turned to politics for credibility.

Agreed. But until then we cannot negotiate with them IMHO.

The Palestinian people knew that the US and Israel would not negotiate with Hamas but voted them in anyway.  Why should we let the Palestinian people choose who we negotiate with. If the Palestinian people are interested in negotiation than they will vote in Fatah in the next round of elections.  There seems to be a clear choice.  Vote for Fatah if you want negotiation.  Or vote for Hamas if you want to resist.

« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 07:34:04 PM by denoginizer » Logged

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Pyperkub
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« Reply #78 on: April 14, 2008, 07:38:23 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 10:30:51 PM

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 13, 2008, 08:47:47 PM

Eliminating terrorist groups is an act of genocide now?   saywhat

BTW, Hamas was the democratically elected government of Palestine.  They aren't a terrorist group now... they are a legitimate government.  And yet, the Bush Administration and Israel overthrew them for some bizarre reason (seeing all the trouble they went to in order to set up the free and fair election and all).  Why do they hate democracy and freedom?

"Democratically elected" and "Terrorist Group" are not mutually exclusive terms, one does not preclude the other.
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« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2008, 07:41:04 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 07:16:42 PM

Electronic Dan's sources earlier cite their edge in the popular vote as tenuous - I'm sure that's true, but it doesn't invalidate their power.  You can't negotiate just with the minority party; they don't control the government.

Just to point out,  Abbas dissolved the Palestinian government when Hamas started it's civil war.  The end result being Hamas is in de facto control of Gaza and Fatah controls the West Bank, while de jure Abbas controls the government.

Which means that you can negotiate with Fatah on the West Bank.

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Hopefully we can bring Hamas to a more moderate stance on co-existence.

I won't hold my breath.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 07:43:53 PM by Electronic Dan » Logged
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