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Author Topic: Can someone please tell this senile moron to shut up?  (Read 8144 times)
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Darkstar One
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« on: April 13, 2008, 12:16:25 PM »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080413/ap_on_re_us/carter_mideast

Unfreakingbelievable.  Who is the asshole going to meet with next--Osama Bin Laden?
Hey, they kept Reagan out of the public eye when HE developed Altzheimer's.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2008, 02:10:08 PM »

Quote
"I feel quite at ease in doing this," Carter said. "I think there's no doubt in anyone's mind that, if Israel is ever going to find peace with justice concerning the relationship with their next-door neighbors, the Palestinians, that Hamas will have to be included in the process."
He's right.
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Lee
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2008, 02:51:00 PM »

I think the OP could make try a little harder to make a post that actually tries to make a point instead of trying to be inflammatory with everything he posts.
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Darkstar One
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2008, 03:41:07 PM »

The only language Hamas understands is force.

Until they recognize Israel's right to exist, and cease terrorist acts, they should be hunted down ruthlessly.  That is how you deal with animals.
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Brendan
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2008, 04:05:24 PM »

Quote from: Darkstar One on April 13, 2008, 03:41:07 PM

The only language Hamas understands is force.

Until they recognize Israel's right to exist, and cease terrorist acts, they should be hunted down ruthlessly.  That is how you deal with animals.

Wow, the language of genocide.  Congratulations on raising the bar for "lunatic extremism" here on GamingTrend.  Well done.
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disarm
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2008, 04:34:11 PM »

"I find it hard to understand what is going to be gained by having discussions with Hamas about peace when Hamas is, in fact, the impediment to peace," Rice said Friday, after reports of the planned meeting surfaced.

umm...isn't the fact that they're a big part of the problem exactly the reason someone should talk to them?
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2008, 04:45:45 PM »

Quote from: Darkstar One on April 13, 2008, 03:41:07 PM

The only language Hamas understands is force.

Until they recognize Israel's right to exist, and cease terrorist acts, they should be hunted down ruthlessly.  That is how you deal with animals.

Yes, because waging a genocidal campaign is obviously the best method of swaying them to your side.  That policy has always worked so well, hasn't it?

I do agree with the title, however.  A senile moron should shut up.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2008, 08:47:47 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 13, 2008, 04:05:24 PM

Quote from: Darkstar One on April 13, 2008, 03:41:07 PM

The only language Hamas understands is force.

Until they recognize Israel's right to exist, and cease terrorist acts, they should be hunted down ruthlessly.  That is how you deal with animals.

Wow, the language of genocide.  Congratulations on raising the bar for "lunatic extremism" here on GamingTrend.  Well done.

Eliminating terrorist groups is an act of genocide now?   saywhat
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2008, 09:37:23 PM »

The language of genocide:

Quote
The only language [insert group here] understands is force.

Until they recognize [insert issue here], and cease [insert issue here], they should be hunted down ruthlessly.  That is how you deal with animals.

Because they aren't like us, you see?  They aren't people.  They are animals!
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CeeKay
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2008, 10:19:01 PM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 13, 2008, 08:47:47 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 13, 2008, 04:05:24 PM

Quote from: Darkstar One on April 13, 2008, 03:41:07 PM

The only language Hamas understands is force.

Until they recognize Israel's right to exist, and cease terrorist acts, they should be hunted down ruthlessly.  That is how you deal with animals.

Wow, the language of genocide.  Congratulations on raising the bar for "lunatic extremism" here on GamingTrend.  Well done.

Eliminating terrorist groups is an act of genocide now?   saywhat

only if we get them all.
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2008, 10:30:51 PM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 13, 2008, 08:47:47 PM

Eliminating terrorist groups is an act of genocide now?   saywhat

BTW, Hamas was the democratically elected government of Palestine.  They aren't a terrorist group now... they are a legitimate government.  And yet, the Bush Administration and Israel overthrew them for some bizarre reason (seeing all the trouble they went to in order to set up the free and fair election and all).  Why do they hate democracy and freedom?
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2008, 10:59:43 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 10:30:51 PM

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 13, 2008, 08:47:47 PM

Eliminating terrorist groups is an act of genocide now?   saywhat

BTW, Hamas was the democratically elected government of Palestine.  They aren't a terrorist group now... they are a legitimate government.  And yet, the Bush Administration and Israel overthrew them for some bizarre reason (seeing all the trouble they went to in order to set up the free and fair election and all).  Why do they hate democracy and freedom?
Well, they weren't really overthrown, but it was obvious from the start that the US and Israel would only accept democracy if it meant good things for the US and Israel. And just because they are in power doesn't mean they've stopped supporting terrorism. There are some things Hamas needs to do to be a good player in peace talks, but setting pre-conditions on negotiations with Hamas is stupid. The point of negotiations is to each compromise, but to ask a group to compromise BEFORE negotiations shows a lack of understanding of the dictionary definition.

Hamas ran on an anti-corruption platform, and this was something that really struck home for Palestinians. It wasn't that Palestinians particularly wanted Hamas in power. If the US and Israel had wanted to see a less corrupt Palestinian Authority, they could have done a lot to address the corruption before the election.

I think Carter could do some important stuff with this visit, but I kind of doubt it will work out.

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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2008, 11:11:38 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 09:37:23 PM

The language of genocide:

Quote
The only language [insert group here] understands is force.

Until they recognize [insert issue here], and cease [insert issue here], they should be hunted down ruthlessly.  That is how you deal with animals.

Because they aren't like us, you see?  They aren't people.  They are animals!

Again, not seeing the problem in trying to eliminate terrorist groups.  I do have a problem with eliminating animals though.  I mean, eliminating lolcats would be genocide.   disgust
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Lee
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2008, 11:16:36 PM »

You can't eliminate a terrorist group by killing them, that just makes more of them. Talking to them would make more sense in the long run. The nuke em all attitude is completely ignorant.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2008, 11:21:36 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 10:30:51 PM


BTW, Hamas was the democratically elected government of Palestine.  They aren't a terrorist group now... they are a legitimate government.

While it's debatable that having elections where there aren't meaningful democratic institutions, where the parties intimidate civilians, eliminate competitors, possess militaries and take over parts of the Gaza strip through warfare counts as a legitimately democratically elected government, that's besides the issue.  They're still  a terrorist group.  And going after them is no more "genocide" then eliminating the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.
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msduncan
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2008, 11:21:43 PM »


I have less of a problem including Hamas in talks than I do having a former President of the United States going to meet with a terror group without State Department or executive clearance to do so.     If any other private citizen did this, they'd be brought up on charges.

If the government, State Department, executive, etc decided that they were going to loop Hamas in -- fine.     I'd disagree with it, but I wouldn't have the same kind of problem with it as I do this.    For instance:   you'd see me loudly decrying the decision to do this if Obama did it next year (assuming he gets to be President), but at least then it's coming from the executive and thus an official act.      This is a private citizen deciding to meet with a current enemy of the United States without executive, congressional, or State Department approval.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2008, 11:23:31 PM »

Quote from: Lee on April 13, 2008, 11:16:36 PM

You can't eliminate a terrorist group by killing them, that just makes more of them.

Yes, you can.  Ask Jordan or Syria.

Quote
Talking to them would make more sense in the long run.

It would  if they're willing to negotiate, and willing to honor their word. If not, it can backfire (see Israel's negotiations with Arafat as an example of this).

If Hamas were willing to abide by prior  treaties of the Palestinian government, and showed a good faith interest in negotiating a two state solution, then negotiating with them would make sense.  As it stands, they're not.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2008, 11:29:06 PM by Electronic Dan » Logged
Lee
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2008, 11:34:31 PM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 13, 2008, 11:23:31 PM

Quote from: Lee on April 13, 2008, 11:16:36 PM

You can't eliminate a terrorist group by killing them, that just makes more of them.

Yes, you can.  Ask Jordan or Syria.

They didn't do a very good job then since both still have problems with terrorists.
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Brendan
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2008, 11:59:08 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 13, 2008, 11:21:43 PM


I have less of a problem including Hamas in talks than I do having a former President of the United States going to meet with a terror group without State Department or executive clearance to do so.     If any other private citizen did this, they'd be brought up on charges.

Remember when Newt Gingrich met with the Chinese government and antagonized them about Taiwan, despite not having the approval of the executive branch, and threatened them with military action, despite not having the power or authority to order military action?  And remember how the Chinese directly criticised Gingrich for making comments that were in direct contradiction to the policies of the executive branch? Good thing we sent Gingrich to jail for causing an international incident.

Oh wait - we didn't.
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denoginizer
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« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2008, 12:06:31 AM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 13, 2008, 10:30:51 PM

BTW, Hamas was the democratically elected government of Palestine.  They aren't a terrorist group now... they are a legitimate government.

And we all know that elections can't be rigged.... slywink
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« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2008, 12:13:16 AM »

Quote from: denoginizer link=topic=25954.msg386477#msg386477
And we all know that elections can't be rigged.... slywink

How much do you know about any of this?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 12:19:03 AM by Brendan » Logged
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« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2008, 12:35:00 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 12:13:16 AM

Quote from: denoginizer link=topic=25954.msg386477#msg386477
And we all know that elections can't be rigged.... slywink

How much do you know about any of this?

Deno was referring to Unbreakable's comment in another thread about the 2004 US election being rigged.
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Brendan
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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2008, 12:49:24 AM »

Who cares?  The Bush administration has continued to act in an irresponsible fashion with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and we're only just scratching the surface of their behaviors.  Yes, unbreakable is often credulous and overreaching.  That doesn't change the facts here - Hamas was elected.  No credible source believes that Hamas tampered with the election results.  They won in a huge landslide.

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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2008, 12:52:05 AM »

Quote from: Lee on April 13, 2008, 11:34:31 PM

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 13, 2008, 11:23:31 PM

Quote from: Lee on April 13, 2008, 11:16:36 PM

You can't eliminate a terrorist group by killing them, that just makes more of them.

Yes, you can.  Ask Jordan or Syria.

They didn't do a very good job then since both still have problems with terrorists.

I think you'll find that Syria did a very good job eliminating the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist threat.  Egypt did the same thing with the Fedayeen in the 50s.  Jordan was also effective in removing the PLO branch that was operating within it. 
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Brendan
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« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2008, 12:57:52 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 12:52:05 AM

I think you'll find that Syria did a very good job eliminating the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist threat. 

Why not go into more detail?  I mean, all that took was a bombardment of a Syrian city that killed as many as 25,000 civilians.  Even today, the Muslim Brotherhood is still a Syrian opposition party with a great deal of popular support.  Sounds like a great model:

Quote
The army was mobilized, and Hafez again sent Rifaat's special forces and Mukhabarat agents to the city. After encountering fierce resistance, Rifaat's forces ringed the city with artillery and shelled it for three weeks. Afterward, military and internal security personnel were dispatched to comb through the rubble for surviving Brothers and their sympathizers. Then followed several weeks of torture and mass executions of suspected rebel sympathizers, killing many thousands, known as the Hama Massacre. Journalist Robert Fisk, who was in Hama shortly after the massacre, estimated fatalities as high as 10,000.  The New York Times estimated the death toll as up to 20,000. According to Thomas Friedman, Rifaat later boasted of killing 38,000 people. The Syrian Human Rights Committee estimates 30,000 to 40,000 were killed. Most of the old city was completely destroyed, including its palaces, mosques, ancient ruins and the famous Azzem Palace mansion. After the Hama uprising, the Islamist insurrection was broken, and the Brotherhood has since operated in exile. Government repression in Syria hardened considerably, as al-Assad had spent in Hama any goodwill he previously had left with the Sunni majority, and now was compelled to rely on pure force to stay in power.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 12:59:48 AM by Brendan » Logged
Electronic Dan
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« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2008, 01:02:43 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 12:49:24 AM

That doesn't change the facts here - Hamas was elected.  No credible source believes that Hamas tampered with the election results.  They won in a huge landslide.



Uhh, no they didn't.  They won 45% to 42% of the vote, but won a majority of the seats because of the confusing nature of the way local seats were given.  They then went and killed or kicked out Fatah members from Gaza in order to take it over.

Imagine if Republicans (or Democrats) had killed or kicked out Democratic (or Republicans) officials from red (or blue) states
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« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2008, 01:06:45 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:02:43 AM

They won 45% to 42% of the vote, but won a majority of the seats because of the confusing nature of the way local seats were given.  They then went and killed or kicked out Fatah members from Gaza in order to take it over.

They won 76 of 132 seats.  Fatah won 43.  I don't think any conservative will get much mileage out of arguing against the "confusing way" that seats are apportioned given the 2000 presidential election where the winner of the popular vote lost the contest to the winner of the electoral vote.  Elections have rules, and Hamas won theirs because they were smart about their nominating process.  I'll wait for you to cite some sources for your claims about killing or kicking out Fatah members, as I've never seen anything rational to that effect.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2008, 01:07:20 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 12:57:52 AM



Why not go into more detail?  I mean, all that took was a bombardment of a Syrian city that killed as many as 25,000 civilians. 

I wasn't condoning what they did.  I was disagreeing with the statement that terrorist groups can't be eliminated by force.  This is a pretty clear example contradicting that statement.
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« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2008, 01:08:43 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:07:20 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 12:57:52 AM



Why not go into more detail?  I mean, all that took was a bombardment of a Syrian city that killed as many as 25,000 civilians. 

I wasn't condoning what they did.  I was disagreeing with the statement that terrorist groups can't be eliminated by force.  This is a pretty clear example contradicting that statement.

Totally.  I concede - you're right, with nuclear weapons, we can eliminate anyone we want by force.  I had assumed you weren't a lunatic, and that if you actually weren't condoning their behavior, you might've mentioned that it required the mass slaughter and torture of thousands of people.
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« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2008, 01:16:34 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:06:45 AM

  I'll wait for you to cite some sources for your claims about killing or kicking out Fatah members, as I've never seen anything rational to that effect.

Yeah?
Well prove it didn't happen.   icon_biggrin
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« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2008, 01:18:54 AM »

Oh, and for what it's worth, I don't even understand the reference to the Fedayeen - Nasser and the Egyptian intelligence service sponsored attacks into Israel by them until the Sinai campaign.  Perhaps you have some source for that as well.
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denoginizer
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« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2008, 01:20:00 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:18:54 AM

Oh, and for what it's worth, I don't even understand the reference to the Fedayeen - Nasser and the Egyptian intelligence service sponsored attacks into Israel by them until the Sinai campaign.  Perhaps you have some source for that as well.

This is GT.  Who needs sources?
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« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2008, 01:20:40 AM »

It's naive, but I'm attempting to raise the level of discourse.  I know, I know - lost cause.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2008, 01:23:07 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:06:45 AM

[
They won 76 of 132 seats.  Fatah won 43.  I don't think any conservative will get much mileage out of arguing against the "confusing way" that seats are apportioned given the 2000 presidential election where the winner of the popular vote lost the contest to the winner of the electoral vote.

Uhh, I'm a Democrat.  Tongue

Here is a look at the confusing nature of the election system.

Quote
I'll wait for you to cite some sources for your claims about killing or kicking out Fatah members, as I've never seen anything rational to that effect.

Has someone been completely ignoring the internal situation in Gaza over the last couple of years?

Try reading about the Battle of Gaza.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 01:28:38 AM by Electronic Dan » Logged
Electronic Dan
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« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2008, 01:26:50 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:18:54 AM

Oh, and for what it's worth, I don't even understand the reference to the Fedayeen - Nasser and the Egyptian intelligence service sponsored attacks into Israel by them until the Sinai campaign.  Perhaps you have some source for that as well.

Gee, a country can sponsor a terrorist groups to attack a country and then, as a response to a war that results from those attacks, stop sponsoring them and end them as a threat.

Imagine that.
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Brendan
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« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2008, 01:28:01 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:23:07 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:06:45 AM

[
They won 76 of 132 seats.  Fatah won 43.  I don't think any conservative will get much mileage out of arguing against the "confusing way" that seats are apportioned given the 2000 presidential election where the winner of the popular vote lost the contest to the winner of the electoral vote.

Uhh, I'm a Democrat.  Tongue

Fooled me.  I guess you're just a contrarian.

Quote
Here is a look at the confusing nature of the election system.

Quote
I'll wait for you to cite some sources for your claims about killing or kicking out Fatah members, as I've never seen anything rational to that effect.

Has someone been completely ignoring the internal situation in Gaza over the last couple of years?

I don't know - has someone?  Again, Hamas won in a landslide, taking far more seats than their primary opponent.  They took advantage of their knowledge of the electoral process there, but that's knowledge that Fatah also had.  This doc you've pointed to reads "Our analysis shows that Hamas was more organized in 'gaming' the winner-take-all system than Fatah."  Exactly.  This is no different than the winner-take-all system in the United States where congressional representation goes to the winner of some redistricted nightmare district concocted by whichever political party got to draw the map.  The rules were the same for both parties.
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« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2008, 01:30:58 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:26:50 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:18:54 AM

Oh, and for what it's worth, I don't even understand the reference to the Fedayeen - Nasser and the Egyptian intelligence service sponsored attacks into Israel by them until the Sinai campaign.  Perhaps you have some source for that as well.

Gee, a country can sponsor a terrorist groups to attack a country and then, as a response to a war that results from those attacks, stop sponsoring them and end them as a threat.

Imagine that.

End them as a threat?  Ever hear of the PLO?
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« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2008, 01:32:59 AM »

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:23:07 AM

Try reading about the Battle of Gaza.

What, in World War I?  You'll need to explain to me why that's relevant.
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2008, 01:48:45 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:30:58 AM

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:26:50 AM

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:18:54 AM

Oh, and for what it's worth, I don't even understand the reference to the Fedayeen - Nasser and the Egyptian intelligence service sponsored attacks into Israel by them until the Sinai campaign.  Perhaps you have some source for that as well.

Gee, a country can sponsor a terrorist groups to attack a country and then, as a response to a war that results from those attacks, stop sponsoring them and end them as a threat.

Imagine that.

End them as a threat?  Ever hear of the PLO?

How are the Fedayeen at all related to the PLO?
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Electronic Dan
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« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2008, 01:50:29 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 14, 2008, 01:32:59 AM

Quote from: Electronic Dan on April 14, 2008, 01:23:07 AM

Try reading about the Battle of Gaza.

What, in World War I?  You'll need to explain to me why that's relevant.

Try lookup up the one that took place in this century.
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