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Author Topic: Black Panthers offer $10,000 bounty on George Zimmerman  (Read 1622 times)
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corruptrelic
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« on: March 25, 2012, 09:52:43 PM »

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Members of the New Black Panther Party are offering a $10,000 reward for the "capture" of George Zimmerman, leader Mikhail Muhammad announced during a protest in Sanford Saturday.

When asked whether he was inciting violence, Muhammad replied defiantly saying: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

The bounty announcement came moments after members of the group called for the mobilization of 5,000 black men to capture George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot Trayvon Martin last month.

Muhammad said members of his group would search for Zimmerman themselves in Maitland and Jacksonville — where the 28-year-old worked before the shooting, employees there said.

Muhammad said the group's national chairman, Dr. Malik Zulu Shabaz of Washington, D.C., is receiving donations from black entertainers and athletes. They hope to collect $1 million by next week, Muhammad said.

The party said they would not release the names of donors nor would they provide documentation to support the existence of donations.

The New Black Panthers announced the reward at a protest in Sanford on Saturday, the activist group's third protest in the past two weeks over the fatal shooting of the Miami Gardens teen.

The group called for Zimmerman's arrest and threatened to find and detain him if police were not willing to do so. But group members didn't call for the mobilization of thousands until Saturday.

Muhammed led the group in chanting "Justice for Trayvon!" and "Black Power!"

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/765562771/New-Black-Panthers-offer-bounty-for-teen-killers-capture.html
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2012, 04:03:53 PM »

Not good. I believe justice must be done in this case, but not vigilante justice. I believe he must be arrested, a full investigation carried out, and a trial should be held.
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2012, 02:29:40 PM »

Gonna be interesting if/when the police report/"trial"  corroborates the account of the incident.  Wonder what Obama will say when it turns out all the racism in this case was directed at the shooter and not the 'victim'.  "If I had a son, he would no longer look like Trayvon, he'd look like George Zimmerman."

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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2012, 02:54:34 PM »

Quote from: ATB on March 27, 2012, 02:29:40 PM

Gonna be interesting if/when the police report/"trial"  corroborates the account of the incident.  Wonder what Obama will say when it turns out all the racism in this case was directed at the shooter and not the 'victim'.  "If I had a son, he would no longer look like Trayvon, he'd look like George Zimmerman."

Probably of equal entertainment value as the GOP candidates who are licking their chops at skewering this kid now, as they always wanted to, but couldn't because they are running for President.  I'm sure they all lost votes in the midwest and south because they condemned the shooting.
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PR_GMR
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2012, 10:09:36 PM »

It has started: Your Guide To The Idiotic Racist Backlash Against Trayvon Martin.

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But other problem is the terms of the debate itself. Whether or not Martin was a good kid or a bad kid, an angel or a thug, a normal teenager or a dangerous deviant, he had every right to walk in the streets of his soon-to-be-stepmother's neighborhood without fear of being shot. A criminal record, a manner of dress, a height: none of these make the shooting of an unarmed, law-abiding teenager justified. And yet here we are, forced to defend Martin's honor, as though if he had been a gangster there'd be nothing to say. As though the minute a black man is anything but a choir boy it's okay to shoot him in the street.

We should have known this was coming. Maybe not for most of last week, when for once everyone seemed to be on the same page. But we had to have known it would get here on Friday morning, when Fox News symbolically broke its silence with a Geraldo Rivera segment urging young men of color to stop wearing hoodies — so as not to get shot — the hilariously inept logic of which failed to mask its true intent, which was to shift the blame for Martin's death back on to Martin.

A few hours later, the president stood in front of journalists in the Rose Garden and, taking a question about Trayvon Martin, said "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon." That was it. Rivera had given the horseshit its window, and Obama had given it its direction. What jacked-up rightblogger could stop himself then? Who could resist calling the president's son a thug?

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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2012, 05:58:53 PM »

Quote from: ATB on March 27, 2012, 02:29:40 PM

Gonna be interesting if/when the police report/"trial"  corroborates the account of the incident.  Wonder what Obama will say when it turns out all the racism in this case was directed at the shooter and not the 'victim'.  "If I had a son, he would no longer look like Trayvon, he'd look like George Zimmerman."


While we await the results of the current investigation, what are the pieces of evidence known so far that make you so confident Zimmerman will be exonerated?

-Autistic Angel
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2012, 02:46:13 AM »

George Zimmerman has claimed, by proxy, that he fired his gun in self-defense after Trayvon Martin sucker-punched him to the ground, knelt down on his arms, and broke his nose with repeated blows to the face.

ABC News has now posted the police surveillance video of Zimmerman's arrival at the police station after the shooting.  His resilience in the wake of such a vicious beating is remarkable.

I am very much looking forward to hearing about the exculpatory evidence ATB is using to inform his predictions.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2012, 03:07:23 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on March 29, 2012, 02:46:13 AM

George Zimmerman has claimed, by proxy, that he fired his gun in self-defense after Trayvon Martin sucker-punched him to the ground, knelt down on his arms, and broke his nose with repeated blows to the face.

ABC News has now posted the police surveillance video of Zimmerman's arrival at the police station after the shooting.  His resilience in the wake of such a vicious beating is remarkable.

I am very much looking forward to hearing about the exculpatory evidence ATB is using to inform his predictions.

-Autistic Angel

how long after the shooting?  a half hour? an hour?  two hours?  did he get medical attention before being taken?  perhaps some painkillers?  it's hard to tell, but there doesn't look like there's any blood showing, so I'm guessing that some time passed between the beating and the video shown.  perhaps enough time for him to collect himself.  also, some people don't act like whiny crybabies when hurt; if he had been all limping and acting in pain people would just have turned around and said 'look, he's fishing for sympathy!'.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2012, 02:01:11 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on March 29, 2012, 03:07:23 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on March 29, 2012, 02:46:13 AM

George Zimmerman has claimed, by proxy, that he fired his gun in self-defense after Trayvon Martin sucker-punched him to the ground, knelt down on his arms, and broke his nose with repeated blows to the face.

ABC News has now posted the police surveillance video of Zimmerman's arrival at the police station after the shooting.  His resilience in the wake of such a vicious beating is remarkable.

I am very much looking forward to hearing about the exculpatory evidence ATB is using to inform his predictions.

-Autistic Angel

how long after the shooting?  a half hour? an hour?  two hours?  did he get medical attention before being taken?  perhaps some painkillers?  it's hard to tell, but there doesn't look like there's any blood showing, so I'm guessing that some time passed between the beating and the video shown.  perhaps enough time for him to collect himself.  also, some people don't act like whiny crybabies when hurt; if he had been all limping and acting in pain people would just have turned around and said 'look, he's fishing for sympathy!'.


I have had exactly one bloody nose in my life.  As a teenager, some friends and I begged our way into the bounce house at a local fast food joint and I smacked my face square against the top of my friend's head.  Nothing was broken, but I certainly got black and blue, puffed up, and lost that top to the resulting bloodstains.

George Zimmerman says a 17-year old football player knelt down on his chest and pounded him in the face for a solid minute, repeatedly slamming the back of his head against the sidewalk pavement in the process.  Crybaby or not, I would have expected such brutality to have left enough physical evidence to be apparent from a video like this.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2012, 03:16:15 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on March 29, 2012, 02:01:11 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on March 29, 2012, 03:07:23 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on March 29, 2012, 02:46:13 AM

George Zimmerman has claimed, by proxy, that he fired his gun in self-defense after Trayvon Martin sucker-punched him to the ground, knelt down on his arms, and broke his nose with repeated blows to the face.

ABC News has now posted the police surveillance video of Zimmerman's arrival at the police station after the shooting.  His resilience in the wake of such a vicious beating is remarkable.

I am very much looking forward to hearing about the exculpatory evidence ATB is using to inform his predictions.

-Autistic Angel



how long after the shooting?  a half hour? an hour?  two hours?  did he get medical attention before being taken?  perhaps some painkillers?  it's hard to tell, but there doesn't look like there's any blood showing, so I'm guessing that some time passed between the beating and the video shown.  perhaps enough time for him to collect himself.  also, some people don't act like whiny crybabies when hurt; if he had been all limping and acting in pain people would just have turned around and said 'look, he's fishing for sympathy!'.


I have had exactly one bloody nose in my life.  As a teenager, some friends and I begged our way into the bounce house at a local fast food joint and I smacked my face square against the top of my friend's head.  Nothing was broken, but I certainly got black and blue, puffed up, and lost that top to the resulting bloodstains.

George Zimmerman says a 17-year old football player knelt down on his chest and pounded him in the face for a solid minute, repeatedly slamming the back of his head against the sidewalk pavement in the process.  Crybaby or not, I would have expected such brutality to have left enough physical evidence to be apparent from a video like this.

-Autistic Angel

Remember AA there are apparently witnesses to both the shouting for help and at least some of the actual incident, so I think the case will all come down to the witnesses, rather than What George Zimmerman himself says. It's too early to jump to conclusions one way or the other on this case.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2012, 05:14:08 PM »

Quote from: Scraper on March 29, 2012, 03:16:15 PM

Remember AA there are apparently witnesses to both the shouting for help and at least some of the actual incident, so I think the case will all come down to the witnesses, rather than What George Zimmerman himself says. It's too early to jump to conclusions one way or the other on this case.


I agree.  That's why the only opinion I'm expressing is that George Zimmerman's claims do not gibe with the evidence we've seen so far.  He said he never pursued Trayvon Martin despite the 9-1-1 tape in which he tells police the opposite.  He swears race was never a factor despite the racial slur he mutters under his breath moments before the shooting.  He describes receiving a beating so severe as to produce severe bruising and broken bones -- specifically claims a broken nose -- and yet now we see him hoping out of a police cruiser four hours after the incident without any apparent injuries.

Zimmerman is represented in public by a lawyer named Craig Sonner, a man who will confidently describe what happened the night of February 26th while simultaneously insisting that he has not asked his client what happened; and by a man named Joe Oliver who probably knows Zimmerman pretty well because they've spoken at family events, and who has left his job to give full time interviews about his "gut feelings."  Oliver also squirms in his chair like a character from L.A. Noire when asked if he and Zimmerman have ever worked together.

I am very mindful of the fact that erstwhile members of the public have very sporadic access to any hard facts about an ongoing investigation.  All I'm saying is that every shred of evidence we do know about serves to undercut Zimmerman's side of the story.  That could change very quickly if there's photographic evidence of wounds that aren't apparent from that ceiling cam.

ATB has taken a different stand.  He puts quotes around Martin's status as the "victim" and asserts that "all the racism has been directed at the shooter."  I'm still very curious to know how he's reached those conclusions.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2012, 05:33:34 PM »

they've found the argument that is going to be used: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH6yHh7j44U&feature=related
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2012, 06:14:03 PM »

Martin was doing nothing wrong -- he was walking to his dad's girlfriend's house after buying a snack at a nearby store. Then this shady looking guy who weighs almost 100lbs more than Travyon starts plainly stalking him through the neighborhood. How could he possibly be to blame for the result of a situation he didn't start?

In fact, wouldn't Florida's stand-your-ground law give Travyon legal permission to do whatever he felt he needed to do to protect himself when a strange man starts following him in at threatening way?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 07:45:07 PM by Fireball1244 » Logged

Scraper
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2012, 06:59:36 PM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on March 29, 2012, 06:14:03 PM

Martin was doing nothing wrong -- he was walking to his dad's girlfriend's house after buying a snack at a nearby store. Then this shady looking guy who ways almost 100lbs more than Travyon starts plainly stalking him through the neighborhood. How could he possibly be to blame for the result of a situation he didn't start?

In fact, wouldn't Florida's stand-your-ground law give Travyon legal permission to do whatever he felt he needed to do to protect himself when a strange man starts following him in at threatening way?

You're making a lot of assumptions based on some of what has been reported in the media.

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« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2012, 07:44:38 PM »

My assumptions are based on the audio that's been released, such as the 911 call, and Trayvon's girlfriend's

1) Trayvon had a legitimate reason and every right to be there. That is unquestionably true.

2) Trayvon had gone to the store and bought Skittles and an iced tea, and was walking home.

3) Zimmerman was following Trayvon despite being told not to do so.

4) Zimmerman weighs about 100 pounds more than Trayvon did.


Regardless, I hope this tragedy can at least lead to the end of those insane "stand your ground" laws.
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« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2012, 07:46:19 PM »

Fireball1244 is making a single assumption, that Martin was doing nothing wrong, based on the complete lack of evidence to the contrary.  Even Zimmerman has never alleged anything actionable about Martin's behavior.  His 9-1-1 call describes only that a "guy," who "looks black," was walking down the path carrying "something."

If Martin had suddenly started mugging some anonymous passerby, surely Zimmerman('s proxies) would have thought to mention it by now, right?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2012, 12:07:19 AM »

Some guy kills some kid for walking while black and the story that gets posted on here is about the Black Panthers? Really?
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2012, 10:59:13 PM »

Would this be a story if Trayvon was white?

Would they refer to zimmerman as a 'white hispanic', a race classification that I've never heard of before this case, if trayvon had been  white.

Would the black panthers put a bounty out if the shooter had been black?  Or would they have offered to raise funds for his defense?


Quote
In fact, wouldn't Florida's stand-your-ground law give Travyon legal permission to do whatever he felt he needed to do to protect himself when a strange man starts following him in at threatening way?

This, in fact, is a critical point that I'd first heard on NPR that really turns this case upside down.  If Trayvon was threatened by a man with a gun, his 'stand your ground rights' allow him to pummel that guy in self defense.  If GZ was being attacked (if he actually was, my first thought was that he messed himself up to make it look like SD) by Trayvon who was defending himself...well this makes it a great deal more complex.

My guess is we'll never know. That GZ is not charged and there's rioting in florida as a result.

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« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2012, 03:52:45 AM »

Quote from: ATB on March 31, 2012, 10:59:13 PM

Would this be a story if Trayvon was white?

I don't think that George Zimmerman would have been concerned about Martin walking down the block on his way back from the store had Martin been white. So, no.

Regardless, the "stand your ground" laws should be repealed.
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« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2012, 03:58:29 AM »

Quote from: ATB on March 31, 2012, 10:59:13 PM

Quote
In fact, wouldn't Florida's stand-your-ground law give Travyon legal permission to do whatever he felt he needed to do to protect himself when a strange man starts following him in at threatening way?

This, in fact, is a critical point that I'd first heard on NPR that really turns this case upside down.  If Trayvon was threatened by a man with a gun, his 'stand your ground rights' allow him to pummel that guy in self defense.
wouldn't trayvon have to kill zimmerman for stand your ground to take effect (a simple pummeling wouldn't be enough to trigger it - right)?   At the very least, it seems unlikely that SYG would be triggered if the opposing party is there to muck it all up by telling an alternate tale.

seems like it would be better to kill first and ask questions later... <- I am being sarcastic (of course i guess you would have to start out by saying  "you are scaring me - i am in fear for my life" )

it generally pays to be able to start our your statement with, "I can speak without fear of contradiction"



is a gun required for stand your ground to be in play?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 06:25:52 AM by notrich » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2012, 05:33:07 AM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on April 01, 2012, 03:52:45 AM

Quote from: ATB on March 31, 2012, 10:59:13 PM

Would this be a story if Trayvon was white?

I don't think that George Zimmerman would have been concerned about Martin walking down the block on his way back from the store had Martin been white. So, no.

Regardless, the "stand your ground" laws should be repealed.

Why should they be repealed?   This tragedy had nothing to do with any reasonable interpretation of the law.    Zimmerman wasn't standing his ground anywhere, he chased down Martin and murdered him.    He can incorrectly claim he was covered by the law but that doesn't make the laws bad.
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« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2012, 02:51:05 PM »

Quote from: ATB on March 31, 2012, 10:59:13 PM

Would this be a sto-


Well, before we engage in strange hypotheticals about what things might be like in different circumstances, ATB, I'm still curious about some of the claims you've already made:


Quote from: ATB on March 27, 2012, 02:29:40 PM

Gonna be interesting if/when the police report/"trial"  corroborates the account of the incident.  Wonder what Obama will say when it turns out all the racism in this case was directed at the shooter and not the 'victim'.  "If I had a son, he would no longer look like Trayvon, he'd look like George Zimmerman."


Why are "trial" and "victim" in quotes?  What is your basis for declaring "all the racism in this case was directed at the shooter?"  What was it about Martin that made Zimmerman call police again?  Was Zimmerman referring to himself when he said, "Fucking coons!" on his 9-1-1 tape, or do you agree with Joe Oliver's stance that he actually said, "Fucking goons!" as some kind of ultra-hip expression of affection for the boy he was calling police about?  With the Florida special prosecutor revealing that the lead investigator wanted to arrest Zimmerman for murder, with the recent video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station unmarked by blood, cuts, bruising, or even any apparent discomfort, when do you think we can expect all that corroborating evidence you were talking about?

When people ask me why I'm suspicious of Zimmerman's account, I can point to specific points of evidence that appear to contradict his account.  What evidence are you staking your claims on, and where can I find it?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2012, 12:25:30 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on April 01, 2012, 02:51:05 PM

Quote from: ATB on March 31, 2012, 10:59:13 PM

Would this be a sto-


Well, before we engage in strange hypotheticals about what things might be like in different circumstances, ATB, I'm still curious about some of the claims you've already made:


Quote from: ATB on March 27, 2012, 02:29:40 PM

Gonna be interesting if/when the police report/"trial"  corroborates the account of the incident.  Wonder what Obama will say when it turns out all the racism in this case was directed at the shooter and not the 'victim'.  "If I had a son, he would no longer look like Trayvon, he'd look like George Zimmerman."


Why are "trial" and "victim" in quotes?  What is your basis for declaring "all the racism in this case was directed at the shooter?"  What was it about Martin that made Zimmerman call police again?  Was Zimmerman referring to himself when he said, "Fucking coons!" on his 9-1-1 tape, or do you agree with Joe Oliver's stance that he actually said, "Fucking goons!" as some kind of ultra-hip expression of affection for the boy he was calling police about?  With the Florida special prosecutor revealing that the lead investigator wanted to arrest Zimmerman for murder, with the recent video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station unmarked by blood, cuts, bruising, or even any apparent discomfort, when do you think we can expect all that corroborating evidence you were talking about?

When people ask me why I'm suspicious of Zimmerman's account, I can point to specific points of evidence that appear to contradict his account.  What evidence are you staking your claims on, and where can I find it?

-Autistic Angel


Quote
Why are "trial" and "victim" in quotes?

Because GZ may be prosecuted simply for political gain.  And because TM has not been proven to be the victim. If he was in fact the aggressor, then GZ is the victim.  If TM was attacked an wrongfully murdered, then he most definitely is a victim.  Right now it is premature to call him the victim. 


Quote
What is your basis for declaring "all the racism in this case was directed at the shooter?"

See my previous points. People assume GZ killed him because he was racist.  However, all the concrete evidence of racial bias has been since the event happened and all most all of it is aimed at GZ.

Quote
What was it about Martin that made Zimmerman call police again?

Seems the media and his parents and everyone else thinks it was because he was black.  Is there any proof of this beyond media and community speculation?  According to the police report, it was because there was as strange man in a residential neighborhood.

Quote
Was Zimmerman referring to himself when he said, "Fornicating coons!" on his 9-1-1 tape, or do you agree with Joe Oliver's stance that he actually said, "Fornicating goons!" as some kind of ultra-hip expression of affection for the boy he was calling police about?

Hadn't heard or read anything about the 911 tapes. Who is Joe Oliver?  Even if GZ is a racist, that does not prove he murdered TM.  

Quote
With the Florida special prosecutor revealing that the lead investigator wanted to arrest Zimmerman for murder

Then why wasn't he charged?  Why isn't he charged?  Why is the special prosecutor poisoning a potential jury pool and pandering to the media? What about innocent until proven guilty, AA?

Quote
With the recent video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station unmarked by blood, cuts, bruising, or even any apparent discomfort,

4 hours later.  How long do you expect his nose to bleed?  

Quote
when do you think we can expect all that corroborating evidence you were talking about?

What evidence is there to the contrary?  IF there was solid evidence he would already be in custody.

Quote
When people ask me why I'm suspicious of Zimmerman's account, I can point to specific points of evidence that appear to contradict his account.

Oh yeah? What's that? Seems like you're using a lot of assumption and speculation. Not sure what evidence if anything you've provided that shows he murdered TM.

Some potential evidence that may suggest it is that analysts say it was TM calling for help on the 911 tapes and not GZ.  
« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 12:29:33 AM by ATB » Logged
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« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2012, 12:26:16 AM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on April 01, 2012, 03:52:45 AM

Regardless, the "stand your ground" laws should be repealed.

Anti gun rhetoric.  There's nothing wrong with the law.  The problem in this case is sloppy police work.
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« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2012, 01:21:36 AM »

I can understand that people might not have the time or energy to attend to every development in a case like this.

What I cannot understand is the idea that someone could write

Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 12:25:30 AM

Because GZ may be prosecuted simply for political gain.


and

Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 12:25:30 AM

Oh yeah? What's that? Seems like you're using a lot of assumption and speculation.


while casually admitting

Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 12:25:30 AM

Hadn't heard or read anything about the 911 tapes. Who is Joe Oliver?


You don't know anything about the topic you're discussing.  More importantly, you didn't bother to take five minutes to educate yourself before coming back to accuse everyone else of shoddy thinking and racist tendancies.


Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 12:25:30 AM

What evidence is there to the contrary?  IF there was solid evidence he would already be in custody.


Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 12:26:16 AM

There's nothing wrong with the law.  The problem in this case is sloppy police work.


Yeah.  The problem isn't the law, it's the shoddy police work, except not really because there wasn't any solid evidence. 

We're done here.  What a waste of time.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2012, 01:31:06 AM »

Then you should be able to mop me up in the discussion.


One problem.  I answered all of your questions. You answered none of mine.
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« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2012, 08:02:49 AM »

Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 12:26:16 AM

Quote from: Fireball1244 on April 01, 2012, 03:52:45 AM

Regardless, the "stand your ground" laws should be repealed.

Anti gun rhetoric.  There's nothing wrong with the law.  The problem in this case is sloppy police work.

I'm not anti-gun, I'm anti-vigilantism. When faced with a potential violent situation, people should flee. If fleeing is not an option, only then should they use force to protect themselves. Vigilantism is destabilizing and dangerous for everyone involved. A very possible scenario:

Person A attacks Person B who, instead of fleeing as they would have previously been required to do, they decide to "stand their ground." While Persons A and B are struggling, a report of a violent attack comes into the cops, who as they arrive see Person B brandishing a weapon against Person A. The cops shoot and kill Person B, which is proper procedure in this instance. Chaos ensues.
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« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2012, 03:15:26 PM »

Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 01:31:06 AM

Then you should be able to mop me up in the discussion.


You've already beaten me to it.  Anyone who skims this thread will see that your position boils down to, "I don't know anything about the people or any of the evidence in this case, but I'm sure people who disagree with me are racists!"  My stick isn't long enough to push you deeper into that mess.


Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 01:31:06 AM

One problem.  I answered all of your questions. You answered none of mine.


Your ideas do not merit consideration, ATB.  If someone else wants to explain to you that ambulances do not include a laundry service, broken noses do not knit themselves back together in four hours, and that violent blunt force trauma to the human head typically leaves a mark, they can have at it.  I would only caution them that it's increasingly clear that you haven't even read the one-page thread you're posting in, and they can't teach someone invested that heavily in ignorance.

To everyone else, I will repeat my earlier statements that the investigation is not done and new information supporting George Zimmerman's account could still be released.  It hasn't happened yet, and it's increasingly hard to imagine what could overturn the mound of evidence we've seen so far, but after the Duke Lacrosse Case and the Kern Country child abuse cases, I want the investigation to consider all the facts.

But even if that happens, even if everything we think we know from the audio tapes, the video tapes, the written EMT reports, the opinions of Martin's mortuary technicians, and Zimmerman's former co-workers turns out to be faulty information, ATB would still be wrong.  He isn't considering the available information and reaching an alternate conclusion -- he's *pretending* that no material evidence exists and labeling people who say otherwise as racists.  It's completely blind faith.

Accidentally guessing correctly is not the same thing as being right.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2012, 04:13:52 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on April 02, 2012, 03:15:26 PM

Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 01:31:06 AM

Then you should be able to mop me up in the discussion.


You've already beaten me to it.  Anyone who skims this thread will see that your position boils down to, "I don't know anything about the people or any of the evidence in this case, but I'm sure people who disagree with me are racists!"  My stick isn't long enough to push you deeper into that mess.


Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 01:31:06 AM

One problem.  I answered all of your questions. You answered none of mine.


Your ideas do not merit consideration, ATB.  If someone else wants to explain to you that ambulances do not include a laundry service, broken noses do not knit themselves back together in four hours, and that violent blunt force trauma to the human head typically leaves a mark, they can have at it.  I would only caution them that it's increasingly clear that you haven't even read the one-page thread you're posting in, and they can't teach someone invested that heavily in ignorance.

To everyone else, I will repeat my earlier statements that the investigation is not done and new information supporting George Zimmerman's account could still be released.  It hasn't happened yet, and it's increasingly hard to imagine what could overturn the mound of evidence we've seen so far, but after the Duke Lacrosse Case and the Kern Country child abuse cases, I want the investigation to consider all the facts.

But even if that happens, even if everything we think we know from the audio tapes, the video tapes, the written EMT reports, the opinions of Martin's mortuary technicians, and Zimmerman's former co-workers turns out to be faulty information, ATB would still be wrong.  He isn't considering the available information and reaching an alternate conclusion -- he's *pretending* that no material evidence exists and labeling people who say otherwise as racists.  It's completely blind faith.

Accidentally guessing correctly is not the same thing as being right.

-Autistic Angel

What do the EMT reports say? I haven''t seen them and to me this is a huge piece of evidence. Have they been released to the public?
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« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2012, 04:58:51 PM »

Quote from: Scraper on April 02, 2012, 04:13:52 PM

What do the EMT reports say? I haven''t seen them and to me this is a huge piece of evidence. Have they been released to the public?


The New York Daily News says they've obtained the EMT report from the night of the shooting, along with audio tapes of their communication, indicate George Zimmerman did not sustain any serious injuries in the encounter.  CNN's Don Lemon has also reported that the paramedics tended to Zimmerman for about eight minutes in total.

Those reports may be incomplete, but so far they sound consistent with the police surveillance video from four hours later.  There's simply no sign of the broken nose or cement head-smashing Zimmerman's lawyer has been claiming.

Zimmerman also says that he sought medical treatment the morning after the incident.  If so, I imagine he'll have records of his visit to corroborate his story.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2012, 06:07:16 PM »

Yes no sign of broken nose, but apparently they enhanced the surveillance video from the police station showing he had an injury on the back of his head.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-case-video-shows-injury-george-zimmermans/story?id=16055412#.T3noiNlCjlc

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« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2012, 06:53:10 PM »

Interesting.  That story also dates the surveillance video to "less than thirty minutes" after the shooting, as opposed to "about four hours" later.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2012, 03:08:42 PM »

Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 01:31:06 AM

One problem.  I answered all of your questions. You answered none of mine.


So, driven by my own curiosity, I went back to see how many of ATB's questions had been addressed earlier on the same page where he asked them.  Let's see:



Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 12:25:30 AM

Quote
What was it about Martin that made Zimmerman call police again?

Seems the media and his parents and everyone else thinks it was because he was black.  Is there any proof of this beyond media and community speculation?


Quote from: Autistic Angel on March 29, 2012, 07:46:19 PM

Fireball1244 is making a single assumption, that Martin was doing nothing wrong, based on the complete lack of evidence to the contrary.  Even Zimmerman has never alleged anything actionable about Martin's behavior.  His 9-1-1 call describes only that a "guy," who "looks black," was walking down the path carrying "something."




Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 12:25:30 AM

Hadn't heard or read anything about the 911 tapes. Who is Joe Oliver?


Quote from: Autistic Angel on March 29, 2012, 05:14:08 PM

Zimmerman is represented in public by a lawyer named Craig Sonner, a man who will confidently describe what happened the night of February 26th while simultaneously insisting that he has not asked his client what happened; and by a man named Joe Oliver who probably knows Zimmerman pretty well because they've spoken at family events, and who has left his job to give full time interviews about his "gut feelings."  Oliver also squirms in his chair like a character from L.A. Noire when asked if he and Zimmerman have ever worked together.




Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 12:25:30 AM

How long do you expect his nose to bleed? 


Quote from: Autistic Angel on March 29, 2012, 02:01:11 PM

I have had exactly one bloody nose in my life.  As a teenager, some friends and I begged our way into the bounce house at a local fast food joint and I smacked my face square against the top of my friend's head.  Nothing was broken, but I certainly got black and blue, puffed up, and lost that top to the resulting bloodstains.

George Zimmerman says a 17-year old football player knelt down on his chest and pounded him in the face for a solid minute, repeatedly slamming the back of his head against the sidewalk pavement in the process.
  Crybaby or not, I would have expected such brutality to have left enough physical evidence to be apparent from a video like this.




Quote from: ATB on April 02, 2012, 12:25:30 AM

Quote
When people ask me why I'm suspicious of Zimmerman's account, I can point to specific points of evidence that appear to contradict his account.

Oh yeah? What's that? Seems like you're using a lot of assumption and speculation.


Quote from: Autistic Angel on March 29, 2012, 05:14:08 PM

I agree.  That's why the only opinion I'm expressing is that George Zimmerman's claims do not gibe with the evidence we've seen so far.  He said he never pursued Trayvon Martin despite the 9-1-1 tape in which he tells police the opposite.  He swears race was never a factor despite the racial slur he mutters under his breath moments before the shooting.  He describes receiving a beating so severe as to produce severe bruising and broken bones -- specifically claims a broken nose -- and yet now we see him hoping out of a police cruiser four hours after the incident without any apparent injuries.


Since these original posts, video enhancement reveals something that might be a welt or abrasion on the back of Zimmerman's head, but the rest of my point still stands.

This is how thoroughly ATB reads a one-page thread, how much time and consideration he devotes to an issue before declaring one side of the discussion to be a pack of racists.  He doesn't know anything about the content of the 9-1-1 tapes, Zimmerman's racial epithet, the strange contradictions in the lawyer's account, the odd behavior of the character witness, or the fact that police on the scene planned to charge Zimmerman with manslaughter until the State Attorney's office ordered his release.  He doesn't even bother to read the information placed in front of him.

But by god, he knows which side is driven by prejudice.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2012, 04:53:12 PM »

I'll take AA ownage for a $1000, Pat.   icon_biggrin
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« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2012, 08:33:40 AM »

Quote from: ATB on March 31, 2012, 10:59:13 PM

This, in fact, is a critical point that I'd first heard on NPR that really turns this case upside down.  If Trayvon was threatened by a man with a gun, his 'stand your ground rights' allow him to pummel that guy in self defense.  If GZ was being attacked (if he actually was, my first thought was that he messed himself up to make it look like SD) by Trayvon who was defending himself...well this makes it a great deal more complex.
Eh. Still same.  If GZ pulled the gun before he was credibly threatened, he's not the defender (and turns out FL is super-serious about that, too).  Otherwise, they're neither one justified in assault (which naturally means they're both perfectly justified in an uncorroborrated account).
Quote from: ATB
My guess is we'll never know. That GZ is not charged and there's rioting in florida as a result.
Well, there are things we'll never know, but it sure seems like there were some witnesses that night.  I just hope if there is more, it's enough to convict.  My own young punk is at UCF.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2012, 03:52:27 PM »

In theory, "Stand Your Ground" legislation provides legal protection for Shelley Duvall if she shoots Jack Nicholson to death while he's axing his way through the Overlook Hotel.  In practice, it does this:

Quote from: Florida Statute 776.013 - Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.


George Zimmerman would not be engaged in unlawful activity if he caught up to Trayvon Martin and snarled some more of those racial epithets to his face.  He would have no duty to retreat if Martin told him to back down, and if Martin happened to express his displeasure by shoving Zimmerman in the chest, Zimmerman could then claim a reasonable belief that his life was in danger from the aggressive hoodie-wearing assailant and all the weaponry such a shady character would surely have concealed.

Purely hypothetical, of course.  All we really know for sure is that Zimmerman ignored police instructions, actively sought out a confrontation with Martin, and got one.  Now it's his word versus that of a corpse, and unless the state can prove what Zimmerman did or did not believe about his safety in the heat of the moment, Florida law says he goes free.


I am not a lawyer, but I play one on internet gaming forums.  Before Mr. Fed shows up to obliterate my casuistry with his Legum Magister-propelled Wrecking Ball of Schooling Fools, let me ask a sincere question to the "Stand Your Ground" supporters among us:

Based on the information available to the public today -- that George Zimmerman is inclined to seek out conflict and exact lethal force against anyone he deems "suspicious" -- what is there to prevent an average Florida citizen from shooting George Zimmerman on sight for fear of their own safety?  Isn't there a more credible basis for feeling threatened by this man's judgement and arsenal than he had for chasing down Martin that night?  How could anyone possibly prove that a man with such a record would not suddenly "attack" a conveniently armed observer and need to be gunned down in "self defense?"

How far down the vigilante hole does this law go?

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2012, 05:14:07 PM »

I'm not convinced as you that he said "coons". If you listen to the tapes enough times, it can sound like "goons" or even more like "punks" if you listen to the whole sentence.

Regardless, my big problem with his actions is that he disobeyed the police instructions to not follow.

However, that action doesn't really matter in the case. We don't know if he approached Martin and provoked him in such a way that Martin was justified in taking him to the ground. We don't know if Martin forced the issue.

The big problem is that the media has given us as many stories as we have witnesses. We have fuzzy 911 audio being dissected by the media, we have video from the hospital that is being dissected by the media, we have these different pictures of the parties involved being used by different media sources. The whole case is being created in the media the entire thing is a mess.

The cops may have gotten the answer right, we don't know. But it definitely seems like they dropped the ball by doing a half-assed job with the investigation. The cops should have been able to immediately provide medical records regarding GZ's nose if it was indeed broken, pictures of the crime scene, transcripts of interviews with witnesses and so on. The media should not have been allowed to run away with the story like they did.

With the amount of conflicting and probably outright false information out there, I don't see how it will be possible at all for this case to have a satisfactory conclusion for all, no matter what really happened.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 05:15:43 PM by Teggy » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2012, 12:13:53 AM »

Quote from: The Washington Post
The Trayvon Martin case took a bizarre turn Tuesday when George Zimmerman’s attorneys said they were dropping the neighborhood watch captain as a client, complaining that they have lost all contact with him and that he called the prosecutor and talked to a TV host after they told him not to speak to anyone.

The lawyers portrayed Zimmerman as erratic and his emotional state as shaky, and they expressed fear for his mental and physical health under the pressure that has been building in the month since he shot and killed Martin, an unarmed black teenager.

“As of the last couple days he has not returned phone calls, text messages or emails,” attorney Craig Sonner said at a news conference outside the courthouse. “He’s gone on his own. I’m not sure what he’s doing or who he’s talking to. I cannot go forward speaking to the public about George Zimmerman and this case as representing him because I’ve lost contact with him.”


More here.

I don't like to quote and run, but I really don't know what to say about this.  I've seen more mundane episodes of Boston Legal.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2012, 07:21:11 PM »

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2012/04/11/national/a010825D07.DTL&tsp=1

Zimmerman to be charged.

**Update** Charged with Second Degree Murder.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 10:00:49 PM by leo8877 » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2012, 01:41:52 AM »

"Pastor" Terry Jones looking to make headlines again..

Quote
Controversial Gainesville pastor Terry Jones plans to hold a rally in Sanford on Saturday in support of George Zimmerman, the man charged in the death of Trayvon Martin.

The rally is planned by Jones's "Stand Up America!" organization, which announced the event on its website under the heading "JUSTICE FOR ZIMMERMAN vs RACIST LYNCH MOB."

Jones' Dove World Outreach Center confirmed that he will come to Sanford this weekend to speak "in support of the Constitutional Rights for George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin."

Jones had previously announced his support for Zimmerman, who remains jailed in Seminole County on a second-degree murder charge in the Feb. 26 shooting of Martin in Sanford.

The rally is expected to begin at 1 p.m. outside the Criminal Justice Center on Bush Boulevard.

Jones drew international attention in 2010 when he announced plans to would burn 1,000 copies of the Quran, the central text of Islam, on the anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

He later staged the burning of Islam's holy book last year. That event was blamed for subsequent riots and the killings of at least seven United Nations workers in the Middle East.

Zimmerman has not acknowledged Jones' support. However, a photo on Zimmerman's website of a "JUSTICE FOR ZIMMERMAN" sign appears to be an image from a previous Jones rally.

http://www.fox43.com/news/nationworld/os-george-zimmerman-terry-jones-rally-20120417,0,7043444.story
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