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Author Topic: Arizona passes controversial anti-gay bill  (Read 2037 times)
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rittchard
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« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2014, 02:21:03 AM »

Personally I think the most intriguing thing about this bill is how they intend it to be enforced.  Will people be required to have their sexuality listed on their ID cards, or maybe everyone has to have an RFID tag implanted?  Or more intriguing, has Arizona secretly perfected the first working GAYDAR?!?!  

Beep beep beep - GAY!  

I support this bill because I want that technology.  Just imagine the fun you could have with it.
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« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2014, 03:12:40 AM »

Quote from: rittchard on February 26, 2014, 02:21:03 AM

Personally I think the most intriguing thing about this bill is how they intend it to be enforced.  Will people be required to have their sexuality listed on their ID cards, or maybe everyone has to have an RFID tag implanted?  Or more intriguing, has Arizona secretly perfected the first working GAYDAR?!?!  

Beep beep beep - GAY!  

I support this bill because I want that technology.  Just imagine the fun you could have with it.

I've been wondering the same thing.
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« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2014, 03:50:14 AM »

I'm still trying to figure out what the endgame is here. Every day we get another of these (today Missouri). I find it hard to believe that these states don't know these laws will be immediately challenged in the courts. Is this part of some GOTV plan for November? If so, how?  Is it just so the people who voted for it can say they they did?
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« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2014, 05:18:05 AM »

What amazes and disturbs me is that not only can people support this but that it seems for many it is THE issue they will let decide their vote. That is truly disheartening. Other than someone who is gay, for them I can totally understand voting based just on this issue.
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« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2014, 07:06:59 AM »

Quote from: Teggy on February 26, 2014, 03:50:14 AM

I'm still trying to figure out what the endgame is here. Every day we get another of these (today Missouri). I find it hard to believe that these states don't know these laws will be immediately challenged in the courts. Is this part of some GOTV plan for November? If so, how?  Is it just so the people who voted for it can say they they did?

They thrive on persecution. It will ultimately backfire because galvanizing the opposition is how progress on civil rights usually happens. But in the meantime circling the wagons against the godless liberals makes them stronger. That's my theory, anyway.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2014, 12:07:22 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on February 26, 2014, 03:12:40 AM

Quote from: rittchard on February 26, 2014, 02:21:03 AM

Personally I think the most intriguing thing about this bill is how they intend it to be enforced.  Will people be required to have their sexuality listed on their ID cards, or maybe everyone has to have an RFID tag implanted?  Or more intriguing, has Arizona secretly perfected the first working GAYDAR?!?!  

Beep beep beep - GAY!  

I support this bill because I want that technology.  Just imagine the fun you could have with it.


I've been wondering the same thing.


Arizona's SB1062 is an amendment to an existing law (the State Religious Freedom Restoration Act) which immunizes people from discrimination lawsuits so long as their refusal to serve gays, blacks, Hispanics, Jews, women, or whatever is claimed as part of their "religious practices."  Enforcing this law would be very easy: any business owner or civil servant in danger of being sued by a disgruntled consumer would simply say, "RELIGION!" and the lawsuit would be dismissed.

There is no burden of proof on the bigots.  They do not have to prove the victim is gay -- only that they thought he or she might be gay.  Check the law right here, with particular attention to Section 1, Article 9 here:

Quote from: Arizona SB1062
9.  "Unreasonable burden" means that a person is prevented from using the person's property in a manner that the person finds satisfactory to fulfill the person's religious mission.


"Well, Your Honor, all I can say is that paying African Americans 70% of what their white colleagues make is an integral part of my 'religious mission.'"


The interesting part is: sexual orientation is not a protected classification in Arizona, meaning that residents already have the right to discriminate against the LGBT community.  This bill is about reinforcing and expanding that right to encompass other classes that do have legal protection.

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« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2014, 01:39:38 PM »

Quote from: rittchard on February 26, 2014, 02:21:03 AM

Personally I think the most intriguing thing about this bill is how they intend it to be enforced.  Will people be required to have their sexuality listed on their ID cards, or maybe everyone has to have an RFID tag implanted?  Or more intriguing, has Arizona secretly perfected the first working GAYDAR?!?!  

Beep beep beep - GAY!  

I support this bill because I want that technology.  Just imagine the fun you could have with it.

I'm sorry, sir, but if you want my hot dog you're going to have to remove those hot pants. WAIT. That didn't come out right.
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« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2014, 03:47:49 PM »

Quote from: Rip on February 25, 2014, 02:52:23 PM

Quote from: Fireball on February 25, 2014, 02:34:12 PM

Quote from: Rip on February 25, 2014, 02:24:39 PM

Quote from: Fireball on February 24, 2014, 03:40:53 PM

Nowhere near every conservative wants this evil bill to become law, but nearly everyone who wants this evil bill to become law is a conservative.

That may be the case but I am quite sure there a number of minority southern baptists among other that are pretty anti-homosexual.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything -- the Southern Baptist religious denomination is an extremely conservative organization.

Quote
That being said I disagree with the characterization that all the Demorat voters are friends of homosexual equal rights, in fact I know that isn't even close to the truth.

I didn't say anything about party. However, the vast majority of Democrats support gay marriage in recent polls, as opposed to the vast majority of Republicans, who oppose.

I am seeing about 2/3rds split on each side. Substantial but vast? Perhaps we just have a different definition of vast. In the end that mean of people who don't support gay marriage one third of them are Democrat, which IMHO draws you statement
Quote
Nowhere near every conservative wants this evil bill to become law, but nearly everyone who wants this evil bill to become law is a conservative.
(which is what you actually said) into question. I can swallow that you thing two-thirds is vast although I disagree, but "nearly everyone" is a clear misuse of the phrase.

Those Democrats who oppose marriage equality are social conservatives.
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« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2014, 04:45:05 PM »

The funny thing is that Jimmy Carter was considered a social conservative back in the day.  Now he's saying people should be allowed to marry whomever they love.  You have to take some hope in the knowledge that some people move forward in life.

I think Clint Eastwood said it best when asked about Gay Marriage rights:

Quote
"These people who are making a big deal about gay marriage?" Eastwood tells the magazine. "I don't give a fuck about who wants to get married to anybody else! Why not?! We're making a big deal out of things we shouldn't be making a deal out of ... Just give everybody the chance to have the life they want."
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 04:47:43 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2014, 06:27:30 PM »

I was thinking about this and have come to the opinion that if AZ business owners want to use this rule to deny serving someone they don't believe in, they should post it in front of the stores.  I think it's a reasonable option to take assuming no one resorts to violence or threatening behavior (dumb that this must even be said).  it gives those who otherwise wouldn't know the chance to speak with their wallets.  It also shows the business owner directly what affect their beliefs have on their customer base. 
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« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2014, 06:49:16 PM »

To be honest, most news articles make it sound like the AZ business owners DON'T want this bill to pass.  Numerous business councils have sent petitions to the governor asking that it be vetoed. 

I think we're just seeing a relatively small group of sanctimonious politicians attempting to enforce their will on the greater majority.
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« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2014, 07:04:44 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 26, 2014, 06:49:16 PM

To be honest, most news articles make it sound like the AZ business owners DON'T want this bill to pass.  Numerous business councils have sent petitions to the governor asking that it be vetoed. 

I think we're just seeing a relatively small group of sanctimonious politicians attempting to enforce their will on the greater majority.

if that's the case, then good on them.  if they do pass this, I hope every dissenting business owner gets one of those signs posted earlier in the thread. 
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« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2014, 01:02:00 AM »

Arizona Governor Jan Brewer has vetoed the bill.  thumbsup

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2014, 03:28:43 AM »

Part of me is going to miss the entertainment value that the resulting shitstorm would've provided, but the more responsible part is glad this is settled for now.
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hepcat
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« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2014, 02:10:34 PM »

The Republican party needs to clean house.  They've becoming known as the party of bigoted hatred with actions like this.  I'm guessing that's why so many of them scrambled to get in front of this by releasing statements condemning it almost as soon as it appeared in the press.

Between the Tea Party and the extremist conservatives that truly believe this crap, they're going to have to do some serious soul searching about what they want to represent in this country's future.
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« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2014, 02:38:32 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 27, 2014, 02:10:34 PM

The Republican party needs to clean house.  They've becoming known as the party of bigoted hatred with actions like this.  I'm guessing that's why so many of them scrambled to get in front of this by releasing statements condemning it almost as soon as it appeared in the press.

Between the Tea Party and the extremist conservatives that truly believe this crap, they're going to have to do some serious soul searching about what they want to represent in this country's future.

I just wish they would split in two already. As they are with the Tea Party and Ultra Religious mixed in with the rest of the party they are highly dysfunctional. Heck at times they make the Democrats look smooth and that's hard to do.
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« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2014, 07:51:24 PM »

The problem with splitting off is that neither group would be able to challenge the dems in any meaningful way for quite some time.  United we conquer, divided we fall and all that.  Although right now, the former is in question as long as they fail to get their extremist factions under control.
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« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2014, 09:02:22 PM »

Quote from: Ironrod on February 27, 2014, 03:28:43 AM

Part of me is going to miss the entertainment value that the resulting shitstorm would've provided, but the more responsible part is glad this is settled for now.

That's pretty much how I feel.  I mean, the backlash would have been awesome to watch.  But seriously once Tim Cook got involved I knew it was all over but the vetoing.
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« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2014, 09:11:07 PM »

While I'm happy this nonsense has met its demise in Arizona, I was surprised to find out it's far from the only such bill being considered by states.

Quote
The buck may have stopped with Gov. Jan Brewer in Arizona on Wednesday, but the fight to pass such laws bannered as religious freedom issues is still on in quite a few other states.

"Right behind it are Missouri and Georgia," said Jay Michaelson, a fellow at Political Research Associates, a progressive political think tank.

There's also a few more mentioned in that linked article.  Thankfully, more than a few of them have shelved any plans to institute such a bill.

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« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2014, 10:01:13 PM »

If I had known there was some doubt about the fact that this Arizona bill was one instance of a coordinated strategy being implemented across multiple states, I would have brought that up a lot earlier.  This was simply the one closest to passing.

The close timing of these operations are why it's difficult to accept the idea that this is a small handful of rogue legislators trying to force their agenda on an unwilling citizenry.  It's the same with restrictive new voting measures suddenly springing up across the country, primarily in red states with changing demographics, all in the interest of fighting a "voter fraud" problem that demonstrably does not exist.  How many times do we have to see self-identified members of the same movement pursue identical agendas before we're allowed to say voter suppression is the goal, not a side effect?

EDIT: Sorry, I was rushed earlier and feel like that was poorly explained.  The comparison I'm making is:

a) a dozen separate red states suddenly pushing pro-discrimination "religious freedom" bills in the name of protecting small businesses from a problem they evidently do not have, and

b) at least that many red states suddenly pushing restrictive new voting laws, eliminating early voting days, and reducing the number of polling places to fight alleged "voter fraud" that even their own studies show doesn't exist.

Conservatives across the country launching simultaneous, coordinated crusades against threats that they are manifestly making up?  If that's not a top-to-bottom organized campaign, I don't know what one would possibly look like.

-Autistic Angel
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hepcat
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« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2014, 02:27:11 PM »

If conservatives were relegated to only a dozen states, I might agree with you.
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« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2014, 03:46:28 PM »

I'm hiding all my white sheets. The way Christians are dragged into everything "bad" is a sweeping sentiment. What do we call a person who lumps "all" of a particular group into a negative light?
Oh yeah, some of you have said it...Predjudice.
Do you think knocking Christians is any less wrong than knocking Gay's?

Think about it, before you throw your stones.
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« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2014, 03:53:55 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on February 28, 2014, 03:46:28 PM

Do you think knocking Christians is any less wrong than knocking Gay's?

Last I checked, gays weren't attempting to pass legislation that would write discrimination against Christians into law.
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« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2014, 04:00:21 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on February 28, 2014, 03:53:55 PM

Quote from: Arclight on February 28, 2014, 03:46:28 PM

Do you think knocking Christians is any less wrong than knocking Gay's?

Last I checked, gays weren't attempting to pass legislation that would write discrimination against Christians into law.

There are Christians who think the Arizona legislation was horrible and wrong, just as there are Muslims who think what Muslim terrorists do is horrible and wrong, and just as there are gay people who think Gay Tony over at Tony's Gay Pizza raised prices to much on his buffalo wings.
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« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2014, 04:18:08 PM »

Not all Christians supported this bill, but all those who supported this bill (with a handful of exceptions, I'm sure) are Christian. This is an important difference. Arclight, any outcries against Christians in this thread (and there were only two mentions of that word before your post, that I can see) are directed against the fundamentalist part of the religion that finds stuff like this okay. It's nothing you need to take personally, unless you should happen to be part of that group.
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« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2014, 05:03:40 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on February 28, 2014, 04:00:21 PM


There are Christians who think the Arizona legislation was horrible and wrong,

Tilt articulated it very well above, but any derision I have towards Christians is directed only at those who supported this legislation under the guise of "religious freedom". 
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« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2014, 05:16:09 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on February 28, 2014, 05:03:40 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on February 28, 2014, 04:00:21 PM


There are Christians who think the Arizona legislation was horrible and wrong,

Tilt articulated it very well above, but any derision I have towards Christians is directed only at those who supported this legislation under the guise of "religious freedom". 

I think we're on the same page, then.  The way you worded your response to Arclight made it sound like you were lumping all Christians together because of the acts of this asshole subset, but if that's not the case, then The Weghted Companion Cube will never threaten to stab you.
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« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2014, 05:27:50 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on February 28, 2014, 05:16:09 PM

Quote from: Gratch on February 28, 2014, 05:03:40 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on February 28, 2014, 04:00:21 PM


There are Christians who think the Arizona legislation was horrible and wrong,

Tilt articulated it very well above, but any derision I have towards Christians is directed only at those who supported this legislation under the guise of "religious freedom". 

I think we're on the same page, then.  The way you worded your response to Arclight made it sound like you were lumping all Christians together because of the acts of this asshole subset, but if that's not the case, then The Weghted Companion Cube will never threaten to stab you.

Ah, apologies to Arclight then.  Mrs. Gratch is a devout Christian...dinnertime would be kind of awkward if I felt animosity towards Christians in general.  smile
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« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2014, 05:36:01 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on February 28, 2014, 03:46:28 PM

I'm hiding all my white sheets. The way Christians are dragged into everything "bad" is a sweeping sentiment. What do we call a person who lumps "all" of a particular group into a negative light?
Oh yeah, some of you have said it...Predjudice.
Do you think knocking Christians is any less wrong than knocking Gay's?

Think about it, before you throw your stones.

It's ironic that you insinuate everyone's acting like the KKK considering the Klan considered themselves a Christian group.   icon_wink

Anyway, as everyone who responded to you is pointing out, this is a group of Christians who aren't acting very Christian-like.  There are a lot of real Christians who oppose bigotry out there.  
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« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2014, 07:28:49 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on February 27, 2014, 10:01:13 PM

Conservatives across the country launching simultaneous, coordinated crusades against threats that they are manifestly making up?  If that's not a top-to-bottom organized campaign, I don't know what one would possibly look like.


Quote from: hepcat on February 28, 2014, 02:27:11 PM

If conservatives were relegated to only a dozen states, I might agree with you.


This suggests you either believe this is all the product of coincidence, or that you have an alternate explanation in mind that's unrelated to the fact that supporters of these "religious freedom" bills self-identify with the same political ideology.

Either way, I'm really looking forward to reading more about your reasoning.


On a separate note, I just had a friend ask me if it was true that Arizona Democrats were on-board with this bill and that Both Sides Did It.  He said a bunch of his Facebook friends are advancing the notion that because the bill passed both the state House and Senate, that both political parties were equally at fault.

My answer:

Quote from: USA Today
Q: Who drafted/sponsored the bill?

A: SB 1062's prime sponsor is Republican state Sen. Steve Yarbrough. Republican Sens. Bob Worsley and Nancy Barto are co-sponsors.

It passed the Senate on a party-line vote, 17-13, with Republicans in support. Since then, three GOP senators, including Worsley, have said they regret their votes and have asked Brewer to veto the bill.

The bill passed the House, 33-27, with mostly GOP support. Three Republicans joined with all 24 Democrats to vote against it.


-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2014, 08:19:51 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on February 28, 2014, 05:27:50 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on February 28, 2014, 05:16:09 PM

Quote from: Gratch on February 28, 2014, 05:03:40 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on February 28, 2014, 04:00:21 PM


There are Christians who think the Arizona legislation was horrible and wrong,

Tilt articulated it very well above, but any derision I have towards Christians is directed only at those who supported this legislation under the guise of "religious freedom". 

I think we're on the same page, then.  The way you worded your response to Arclight made it sound like you were lumping all Christians together because of the acts of this asshole subset, but if that's not the case, then The Weghted Companion Cube will never threaten to stab you.

Ah, apologies to Arclight then.  Mrs. Gratch is a devout Christian...dinnertime would be kind of awkward if I felt animosity towards Christians in general.  smile


This falls squarely in the category of anecdotal evidence, but my best friend is a devout Christian.  His father has been a church deacon and his mother has taught catechism classes for as many years as I have been alive.

None of us in our very blue state has ever heard anyone claim that all Christians are tainted by the shrill prejudices of a vocal and very-well-funded minority.  Not in person, not on television, and not in movies -- not even in politics where, no matter how often Conservatives might claim that persecution of homosexuals is authorized by the Bible, those beliefs have no hold over the majority of actual, practicing Christians.  My friend and his family would be among the first to point out that for all the time Jesus Christ spent preaching about the moral imperative to provide direct financial assistance to the poor, He never said one blessed word about hating gay people.

Arclight talks a lot about how devout Christians like him are being demonized simply for being people of faith, mostly because the fantasy of persevering in the face of such baseless hatred would make him a crusading hero.  In reality, however, he's just a run-of-the-milll dude who feels that adopting religion has improved his quality of life, and so long as that makes him a happy and well-adjusted member of society, nobody has any interest in taking that away from him.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2014, 08:52:27 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on February 28, 2014, 07:28:49 PM

This suggests you either believe this is all the product of coincidence, or that you have an alternate explanation in mind that's unrelated to the fact that supporters of these "religious freedom" bills self-identify with the same political ideology.

And this suggests to me that you've forgotten my original assertion.

Again:  It's wrong to say that every single conservative in this country wants these bills to pass.  Just wrong.  As Fireball succinctly and correctly put it, not all conservatives want this bill to pass, but all those who want this bill to pass are most likely conservatives.  The proof of that lies in the number of conservative GOP's like McCain who spoke out against it.

Extremism on either side of the fence just exacerbates the problem.

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« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2014, 10:19:26 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 28, 2014, 08:52:27 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on February 28, 2014, 07:28:49 PM

This suggests you either believe this is all the product of coincidence, or that you have an alternate explanation in mind that's unrelated to the fact that supporters of these "religious freedom" bills self-identify with the same political ideology.

And this suggests to me that you've forgotten my original assertion.

Again:  It's wrong to say that every single conservative in this country wants these bills to pass.  Just wrong.  


I agree.  Let's make a pact that if we ever encounter anyone who believes every single conservative in this country wants these bills to pass, we'll link them back to some of the things I posted in this thread demonstrating that isn't true.

In fact, let's put together a quick reference guide right now:

Quote from: Autistic Angel on February 25, 2014, 12:09:02 AM

Quote from: brettmcd on February 24, 2014, 02:45:45 AM

Yes AA all conservatives are evil and want laws like this to pass, I guess that is why a similar bill in Kansas was defeated in large part because of two major conservative groups speaking out against it.


The Kansas version of the "Discrimination Against Gays Is The Cornerstone of My Religion!" bill was passed by the state House 72-42.  Of the 72 supporting votes, only 3 were from Democrats.  Then the Senate Republican Majority Leader claimed there weren't enough votes to pass the upper chamber, but rather than subjecting her caucus to the indignity of voting against legalized discrimination, the bill is expected to die in committee.


Killing a bill in committee proves the Republican Senate Leader did not want the bill to pass.


Quote from: Autistic Angel on February 27, 2014, 01:02:00 AM

Arizona Governor Jan Brewer has vetoed the bill.  thumbsup


Vetoing a bill passed by both legislative chambers is a definitive sign that the Conservative governor did not want the bill to pass.


Quote from: Autistic Angel on February 27, 2014, 10:01:13 PM

On a separate note, I just had a friend ask me if it was true that Arizona Democrats were on-board with this bill and that Both Sides Did It.  He said a bunch of his Facebook friends are advancing the notion that because the bill passed both the state House and Senate, that both political parties were equally at fault.

My answer:

Quote from: USA Today
Q: Who drafted/sponsored the bill?

A: SB 1062's prime sponsor is Republican state Sen. Steve Yarbrough. Republican Sens. Bob Worsley and Nancy Barto are co-sponsors.

It passed the Senate on a party-line vote, 17-13, with Republicans in support. Since then, three GOP senators, including Worsley, have said they regret their votes and have asked Brewer to veto the bill.

The bill passed the House, 33-27, with mostly GOP support. Three Republicans joined with all 24 Democrats to vote against it.


There's information three Republican State House members, plus three Republican Senators who fought to kill the bill.  Granted, we don't know that all of these people identify themselves as Conservatives, but the odds are better than not.

Is there anything else you'd like to say about your original assertion, or should we stop disproving claims that no one has made?

-Autistic Angel
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hepcat
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« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2014, 12:19:44 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on February 25, 2014, 12:09:02 AM

Homophobic discrimination is just one square on the multi-paneled quilt of discredited economic theories, religious zealotry, Social Darwinism, xenophobia, profiteering, and batshit-crazy secret-Muslimism that makes up the Conservative movement.  It's a big enough tent that every subset deserves recognition for its own brand of asshattery.

Quote from: Autistic Angel
Conservatives across the country launching simultaneous, coordinated crusades against threats that they are manifestly making up?  If that's not a top-to-bottom organized campaign, I don't know what one would possibly look like.

I realize you get worked up and that your opinions are often filtered through hyperbole at that point, so I'll just say, "Ah, okay then" and sign off with a hearty "cheers".
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« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2014, 01:19:38 AM »

Please, quoting actual things AA says is against his rules of debating with him.  
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2014, 03:39:19 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 01, 2014, 12:19:44 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on February 25, 2014, 12:09:02 AM

Homophobic discrimination is just one square on the multi-paneled quilt of discredited economic theories, religious zealotry, Social Darwinism, xenophobia, profiteering, and batshit-crazy secret-Muslimism that makes up the Conservative movement.  It's a big enough tent that every subset deserves recognition for its own brand of asshattery.

Quote from: Autistic Angel
Conservatives across the country launching simultaneous, coordinated crusades against threats that they are manifestly making up?  If that's not a top-to-bottom organized campaign, I don't know what one would possibly look like.

I realize you get worked up and that your opinions are often filtered through hyperbole at that point, so I'll just say, "Ah, okay then" and sign off with a hearty "cheers".


Cool.  Now that we've dispensed with that "Every Single Conservative Wants...." fallacy and established your opinion of me for anyone who cares, let's see if any of that is relevant to the topic at hand.

Republican legislatures in twelve states have been pondering virtually identical pro-discrimination legislation, all in the name of "religious freedom," to combat a problem that doesn't exist, allegedly on behalf of business communities that want nothing to do with such laws.  I call that a pattern.  Specifically: hard-Right Conservatives attempting to inflame their base by stirring up fears about their looming oppression by the homosexual agenda:

Quote from: National Review Online
It is perhaps unfortunate that it has come to this, but organized homosexuality, a phenomenon that is more about progressive pieties than gay rights per se, remains on the permanent offensive in the culture wars. Live-and-let-live is a creed that the gay lobby specifically rejects: The owner of the Masterpiece Cakeshop in Colorado was threatened with a year in jail for declining to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding.


(For the record, the owner of the Masterpiece Cakeshop in Colorado was "threatened" with legally prescribed fines if he continues flouting state law by refusing service to people based on their sexual orientation.  "A year in jail" would be the penalty for refusing to pay the fines; that's how laws work.  The gay couple in question had already been married in Massachusetts and simply wanted a cake for their party back home.)

Now, hepcat, you have the power to prove to everyone that this has nothing to do with political ideology and that I'm hopelessly mired in my own unfounded preconceptions.  There's just two simple steps:

1) Document a similar list of states with Democratically-controlled legislatures that have been pushing for this sort of "religious freedom" law, and

2) Trick me into dismissing or ignoring your evidence, thus proving that I'm unwilling to consider fresh facts.

Let's start with Step 1: finding one single fact to bolster your position.  Name a state where a Democratic majority has pushed to legalize discrimination against gay people.  Something at the federal level would work too.  You know, something like this:

Quote from: The Washington Post
The Republican National Committee passed resolutions Friday reaffirming its commitment to defining marriage as between a man and a woman, and calling on the Supreme Court to "uphold the sanctity of marriage" as it weighs rulings on two landmark cases involving gay marriage.

At the RNC's spring meeting in Los Angeles, committee members adopted a slate of resolutions unanimously and without discussion, a committee spokeswoman said.

One of the resolutions affirms the committee's "support for marriage as the union of one man and one woman, and as the optimum environment in which to raise healthy children for the future of America."

Another involves the Supreme Court, which recently heard arguments in two cases involving gay marriage. One case involves California's same-sex marriage ban, while the other involves the federal Defense Of Marriage Act, which prevents same-sex married couples from receiving certain federal benefits.

"The Republican National Committee implores the U. S. Supreme Court to uphold the sanctity of marriage in its rulings on California’s Proposition 8 and the Federal Defense of Marriage Act," reads the RNC's resolution.

The moves come four days after social conservatives sent a letter to RNC Chairman Reince Priebus, threatening to decamp if the party did not reaffirm its commitment to their issues. It's important to note that resolutions have to be submitted ten days in advance, meaning they have been on tap at the committee even before the letter was sent.


Except with Democrats.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2014, 01:34:59 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on March 01, 2014, 03:39:19 AM

Now, hepcat, you have the power to prove to everyone that this has nothing to do with political ideology and that I'm hopelessly mired in my own unfounded preconceptions.  There's just two simple steps:

Why would I do that?  I already said this about Cruz's attempts to revive DOMA elsewhere in R&P.

Quote from: hepcat on February 14, 2014, 06:50:20 PM

I honestly don't think folks like Cruz are even backing this crap on the basis of a moral stance anymore.  I truly believe it's become purely a political point.  It's a way to display defiance against all things Obama and thus help you to stand out from the crowd for all those nut cases out there who almost believe Obama is the anti christ.

I just objected to your use of sweeping generalizations earlier.  As long as I remember that your posts tend to be equal parts emotional hyperbole and facts you've culled from various news sources other than Fox, we actually agree on most things.  You're kind of a liberal version of a Tea Partier, in a way.   icon_wink
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« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2014, 04:52:57 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on February 28, 2014, 08:19:51 PM


Arclight talks a lot about how devout Christians like him are being demonized simply for being people of faith, mostly because the fantasy of persevering in the face of such baseless hatred would make him a crusading hero.  In reality, however, he's just a run-of-the-milll dude who feels that adopting religion has improved his quality of life, and so long as that makes him a happy and well-adjusted member of society, nobody has any interest in taking that away from him.

I agree that only conservative Christians (the particularly delusional sort who believe in a literal Bible), not all Christians, are to blame for bills like these.  However, I also do blame their holy book for inspiring this whole mess to begin with.  If homosexuality wasn't explicitly called out as a sin there, I think the fight for acceptance of the gay lifestyle would be much less difficult because this wouldn't be an attack on a religious teaching.  So, while many individual Christians aren't responsible for this, I do put a lot of blame for this on the Bible, which is the basis for their religion in general.
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« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2014, 08:33:00 PM »

Fiscal conservatives are the only group that kept my county from falling into a state of near bankruptcy. Despite high foreclosures in the area, and a reduction in businesses, the Democratic block felt the best way to increase revenue was to increase taxes and sternly "suggest" the law enforcement agencies to double down on issuing tickets.

Forget about tightening our belts. No, they wanted expenditures to rise on the backs of the people who can barely afford to stay in their homes. And while doing that, give them a speeding ticket when they rush home from working two jobs so they can spend an hour an evening with their families.

Squabbling about petty bullshit like this is akin to to arguing over a slice of toast at the breakfast table while the house is burning down. A basic human right is not the freedom to buy a cappuccino wherever you damned well please. If you hate that a person or persons excludes another from service based upon religious reasons, use economic forces to solve the matter. The owner has the right to give the gay customer the finger based upon his religious beliefs, and the gay customer has the right to give the business owner the finger, and take his business, and all of his friends' business to the competitor next door.

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« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2014, 08:46:14 PM »

You should be angry at the people who tried to push this stupid, bullshit bill through.  Not the potential victims (and decent folk) who raised their voices and said stop.  
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