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Author Topic: Arizona passes controversial anti-gay bill  (Read 1996 times)
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corruptrelic
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« on: February 23, 2014, 12:24:28 AM »

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Arizona's Legislature has passed a controversial bill that would allow business owners, as long as they assert their religious beliefs, to deny service to gay and lesbian customers.

The bill, which the state House of Representatives passed by a 33-27 vote Thursday, now goes to Gov. Jan Brewer, a Republican and onetime small business owner who vetoed similar legislation last year but has expressed the right of business owners to deny service.

"I think anybody that owns a business can choose who they work with or who they don't work with," Brewer told CNN in Washington on Friday. "But I don't know that it needs to be statutory. In my life and in my businesses, if I don't want to do business or if I don't want to deal with a particular company or person or whatever, I'm not interested. That's America. That's freedom."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/21/us/arizona-anti-gay-bill/

Would Governor Seagal overturn it if it's signed?
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2014, 02:03:24 AM »

This response was awesome



As was George Takei's response.
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2014, 04:36:42 PM »

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In my life and in my businesses, if I don't want to do business or if I don't want to deal with a particular company or person or whatever, I'm not interested. That's America. That's freedom."

Uh no, thats not freedom, thats prejudice. 
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2014, 07:53:39 PM »

Quote from: rshetts2 on February 23, 2014, 04:36:42 PM

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In my life and in my businesses, if I don't want to do business or if I don't want to deal with a particular company or person or whatever, I'm not interested. That's America. That's freedom."

Uh no, thats not freedom, thats prejudice. 

Freedom to have prejudice!

Anyway, I don't see how this would be different from the same businesses saying that white/black/asian/etc.. people aren't allowed in due to religion.. which isn't legal... I smell... LAWSUITS!
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2014, 12:44:48 AM »

And the Christian groups that support this crap wonders why folks dislike them.  Thank goodness that most of the people they hate are actually better people than they are.
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2014, 02:01:59 AM »

Have any mainstream churches spoken in favor of it?
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2014, 02:23:32 AM »

The Conservative movement in America has fought against every civil rights advancement in the nation's history, and they've cited their religious piety as justification every single time.  Slavery is condoned in the Bible.  Race mixing is immoral; God put them on different continents for a reason.  Allowing women to vote or work outside the home goes against God's will because their gender spoiled the Garden of Eden and was cursed with menstruation as righteous punishment.  Now they're furious about gay marriage because the Bible says like three things about it...and two of them are hotly debated among biblical scholars studying earlier translations of the text.

But the best part comes when they finally lose those fights: they start pretending they'd been the *real* champions of equality all along.  They argue Liberals are the real bigots because Abraham Lincoln was a Republican, Ayn Rand was a woman, and a second unit camera guy who worked on Spike Lee's Jungle Fever once gave $100 to Ronald Reagan.  All the decades of oppressive and vindictive legislation are simply being taken out of context by the teacher's unions.

Nearly everyone on this forum will still be alive when Conservatives try the same thing with gay rights, citing the nominal existence of Log Cabin Republicans as evidence that they were secretly wearing their "Ally" rainbow buttons all along.  I wouldn't be surprised to see that start happening before the end of this decade.  I just hope at least a few people remember that laws like this really are being passed, exclusively by one side of the political spectrum, and there's no mistaking their intent.

-Autistic Angel
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brettmcd
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2014, 02:45:45 AM »

Yes AA all conservatives are evil and want laws like this to pass, I guess that is why a similar bill in Kansas was defeated in large part because of two major conservative groups speaking out against it.    I know you wont be able to comprehend that but hopefully others won't get caught up in your conservative=evil agenda.
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2014, 02:48:17 AM »

If this passes, I cannot wait for the first time a Christian is denied service in Arizona due to this law.  The poutrage will be epic.
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2014, 06:54:00 AM »

This is unreal. Unfortunately it is actually real. Wow.
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2014, 07:36:59 AM »

I've said it before and I know I'll say it again, but the US needs to get its religious fundamentalism under control. Sure, this will get tossed away eventually, like it always does, but it should never even have gotten to this stage. When comparisons to countries like Iran start becoming apt, something is very wrong.
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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2014, 01:40:21 PM »

The problem with beating down the beast called religious fundamentalism is that our constitution affords them very strong protections.  It makes any kind of control a real fine line.  They are very organized and very driven and that makes them powerful, politically.  Our politicians will get into bed with anyone who has power.
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2014, 02:00:28 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on February 24, 2014, 02:45:45 AM

Yes AA all conservatives are evil and want laws like this to pass.

I have to agree with brett on this (his point, not the sarcasm).  There are many types of conservatives.  Not all of them are pitchfork wielding villagers trying to drive out anyone who is different.
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2014, 03:40:53 PM »

Nowhere near every conservative wants this evil bill to become law, but nearly everyone who wants this evil bill to become law is a conservative.
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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2014, 03:47:23 PM »

Not all criminals are murderers, but everyone who commits a murder is a criminal.

 Tongue
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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2014, 04:06:30 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 24, 2014, 02:00:28 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on February 24, 2014, 02:45:45 AM

Yes AA all conservatives are evil and want laws like this to pass.

I have to agree with brett on this (his point, not the sarcasm).  There are many types of conservatives.  Not all of them are pitchfork wielding villagers trying to drive out anyone who is different.

I think it's safe to say that mainstream GOP has a pretty strong track record of trying to deny gay rights and gay marriage. Not all of them are as willing to cede the moderate votes as Arizona is, but I'd be willing to bet that if there were no public or media outrage over bills such as these that they would at least be complicit.
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2014, 04:27:03 PM »

I think we need to determine whether we're talking about the GOP or conservatives.  They're not one and the same.  There are conservative democrats too.

I guess my point is let's not demonize an entire group based on the actions of a subset of bigoted asshats.
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brettmcd
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2014, 06:47:45 PM »

I guess my point here is that AA, fireball and others here love to point out how evil all conservatives are and how every bad thing that ever happens in this country is the fault of all conservatives.   Its bullshit and needs to be called out when they do it.

There are many conservatives, myself included, who don't support this anti gay bullshit like this bill, and as I said have fought against such bills in other states (Kansas for example).
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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2014, 07:22:42 PM »

Thanks for lumping me in there when just five posts before I said exactly the opposite of what you accuse me of saying.
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brettmcd
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« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2014, 07:57:14 PM »

Fireball you have called me evil and other such wonderful terms for being a conservative for many years over different boards.   So how you feel is clear to me.
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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2014, 08:11:10 PM »

Desperate law is desperate.
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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2014, 12:09:02 AM »

Quote from: brettmcd on February 24, 2014, 02:45:45 AM

Yes AA all conservatives are evil and want laws like this to pass, I guess that is why a similar bill in Kansas was defeated in large part because of two major conservative groups speaking out against it.


The Kansas version of the "Discrimination Against Gays Is The Cornerstone of My Religion!" bill was passed by the state House 72-42.  Of the 72 supporting votes, only 3 were from Democrats.  Then the Senate Republican Majority Leader claimed there weren't enough votes to pass the upper chamber, but rather than subjecting her caucus to the indignity of voting against legalized discrimination, the bill is expected to die in committee.

So please: let's all give a big round of applause to the Kansas Republican Party for their decision to quietly suffocate the bigotry bill they wrote and voted up themselves, conveniently sparing Republican governor Sam Brownback from having to pick sides on a hot button issue in a tightly contested election year.  They're like real-life superheroes...in a world where "heroism" is defined as abandoning planned crimes halfway through because you're about to get caught.


Quote from: hepcat on February 24, 2014, 04:27:03 PM

I think we need to determine whether we're talking about the GOP or conservatives.  They're not one and the same.


You'll find that I try to be very precise when I'm writing about Republicans, referring the political party, its voters, and the politicians they elect; and Conservatism, the sweeping ideology that unites many Republicans, Libertarians, Tea Partiers, plutocrats, and separatist militias. 

My mother is a registered Republican.  Her views are decidedly "small-c" conservative, as those ideals were defined by leaders like Dwight Eisenhower, Gerald Ford, and Ronald Reagan.  By current standards this makes her radical leftist, and she absolutely abhors what the GOP has become in the modern era.


Quote from: hepcat on February 24, 2014, 04:27:03 PM

I guess my point is let's not demonize an entire group based on the actions of a subset of bigoted asshats.


I agree.  Modern American Conservatism is not defined solely by bigotry.  There are a great many Conservatives who don't particularly care whether or not gay people are allowed to get married, but are glad to remain mute because the wedge issue is a great way to pursue their policies of denigrating poor people.  Or weakening environmental protections.  Or quashing voter rights, privatizing Social Security and Medicare, shaking the grip of Sharia Law, spreading democracy by leaping into protracted wars, slashing taxes for rich people, supplanting science classes with religious fairy tales, demanding the government end its secret chemtrails experiments....

Homophobic discrimination is just one square on the multi-paneled quilt of discredited economic theories, religious zealotry, Social Darwinism, xenophobia, profiteering, and batshit-crazy secret-Muslimism that makes up the Conservative movement.  It's a big enough tent that every subset deserves recognition for its own brand of asshattery.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2014, 01:12:53 AM »

Way to double down there AA.   Glad my impression of what you said was 100% correct.
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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2014, 01:25:02 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on February 25, 2014, 12:09:02 AM

Homophobic discrimination is just one square on the multi-paneled quilt of discredited economic theories, religious zealotry, Social Darwinism, xenophobia, profiteering, and batshit-crazy secret-Muslimism that makes up the Conservative movement.  It's a big enough tent that every subset deserves recognition for its own brand of asshattery.

I understand you hate conservatism with a burning passion, but you display an almost cartoonish grasp of what it is.  I'm not a conservative by any definition of the word, and even I know it's not comprised solely of robber barons dressed like snidely whiplash.  You're better than this, I hope.
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« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2014, 02:37:50 AM »

Please tell me you guys aren't taking AA seriously.   He's writing in the Onion's style of snark and sarcasm.
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« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2014, 02:52:20 AM »

Too bad AA isn't aware of that.   icon_wink
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« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2014, 04:04:16 AM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 25, 2014, 01:25:02 AM

even I know it's not comprised solely of robber barons dressed like snidely whiplash. 

There's also Richie Rich and Scrooge McDuck.
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« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2014, 04:05:25 AM »

Quote from: Caine on February 25, 2014, 02:37:50 AM

Please tell me you guys aren't taking AA seriously.   He's writing in the Onion's style of snark and sarcasm.

He is 100% serious in what he writes.
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« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2014, 04:18:50 AM »

Quote from: brettmcd on February 25, 2014, 04:05:25 AM

Quote from: Caine on February 25, 2014, 02:37:50 AM

Please tell me you guys aren't taking AA seriously.   He's writing in the Onion's style of snark and sarcasm.

He is 100% serious in what he writes.

okay.  I feel like I've read more sarcastic AA posts than non, imo.   
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« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2014, 02:17:50 PM »

Quote from: Punisher on February 23, 2014, 07:53:39 PM

Quote from: rshetts2 on February 23, 2014, 04:36:42 PM

Quote
In my life and in my businesses, if I don't want to do business or if I don't want to deal with a particular company or person or whatever, I'm not interested. That's America. That's freedom."

Uh no, thats not freedom, thats prejudice.  

Freedom to have prejudice!

Anyway, I don't see how this would be different from the same businesses saying that white/black/asian/etc.. people aren't allowed in due to religion.. which isn't legal... I smell... LAWSUITS!

I think you are a little confused. It isn't that religious freedom can't be used to pick you prejudices but that you can't prejudice because of someones religion. At this time sexual preference isn't protected, although I think it should be, but being gay isn't a religion.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 02:29:27 PM by Rip » Logged
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« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2014, 02:24:39 PM »

Quote from: Fireball on February 24, 2014, 03:40:53 PM

Nowhere near every conservative wants this evil bill to become law, but nearly everyone who wants this evil bill to become law is a conservative.

That may be the case but I am quite sure there a number of minority southern baptists among other that are pretty anti-homosexual. Note I say that but also think this law is stupid and totally disagree with it. That being said I disagree with the characterization that all the Demorat voters are friends of homosexual equal rights, in fact I know that isn't even close to the truth.
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« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2014, 02:28:49 PM »

Quote from: Ironrod on February 25, 2014, 04:04:16 AM

Quote from: hepcat on February 25, 2014, 01:25:02 AM

even I know it's not comprised solely of robber barons dressed like snidely whiplash. 

There's also Richie Rich and Scrooge McDuck.

Don't forget Mr Crab.
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« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2014, 02:34:12 PM »

Quote from: Rip on February 25, 2014, 02:24:39 PM

Quote from: Fireball on February 24, 2014, 03:40:53 PM

Nowhere near every conservative wants this evil bill to become law, but nearly everyone who wants this evil bill to become law is a conservative.

That may be the case but I am quite sure there a number of minority southern baptists among other that are pretty anti-homosexual.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything -- the Southern Baptist religious denomination is an extremely conservative organization.

Quote
That being said I disagree with the characterization that all the Demorat voters are friends of homosexual equal rights, in fact I know that isn't even close to the truth.

I didn't say anything about party. However, the vast majority of Democrats support gay marriage in recent polls, as opposed to the vast majority of Republicans, who oppose.
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« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2014, 02:52:23 PM »

Quote from: Fireball on February 25, 2014, 02:34:12 PM

Quote from: Rip on February 25, 2014, 02:24:39 PM

Quote from: Fireball on February 24, 2014, 03:40:53 PM

Nowhere near every conservative wants this evil bill to become law, but nearly everyone who wants this evil bill to become law is a conservative.

That may be the case but I am quite sure there a number of minority southern baptists among other that are pretty anti-homosexual.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything -- the Southern Baptist religious denomination is an extremely conservative organization.

Quote
That being said I disagree with the characterization that all the Demorat voters are friends of homosexual equal rights, in fact I know that isn't even close to the truth.

I didn't say anything about party. However, the vast majority of Democrats support gay marriage in recent polls, as opposed to the vast majority of Republicans, who oppose.

I am seeing about 2/3rds split on each side. Substantial but vast? Perhaps we just have a different definition of vast. In the end that mean of people who don't support gay marriage one third of them are Democrat, which IMHO draws you statement
Quote
Nowhere near every conservative wants this evil bill to become law, but nearly everyone who wants this evil bill to become law is a conservative.
(which is what you actually said) into question. I can swallow that you thing two-thirds is vast although I disagree, but "nearly everyone" is a clear misuse of the phrase.

That said at this point I support it fully if for no other reason than so we can move on to issues that are really important to me. I would be thrilled to capitulate the issue(which is very important to you) to gain capitulation on one of the other issues that are very important to me )Like spending, domestic spying, and gun control).

Of course the idea of compromise is something often spoken of and almost never practiced.
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« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2014, 02:53:35 PM »

You shouldn't have to feel that giving someone a basic right is capitulation though.  It should just be the right thing to do.  Period.
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« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2014, 02:57:12 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 25, 2014, 02:53:35 PM

You shouldn't have to feel that giving someone a basic right is capitulation though.  It should just be the right thing to do.  Period.

That would be awesome but clearly the nation is split on what the right thing is, we wouldn't otherwise need political discourse about them. Universally agreed upon right things to do are easy peasy.
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« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2014, 02:58:43 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 25, 2014, 02:53:35 PM

You shouldn't have to feel that giving someone a basic right is capitulation though.  It should just be the right thing to do.  Period.

I think this underscores the issue. There are degrees of support and opposition, and like I alluded to earlier, those on the right that don't support the discriminatory laws aren't exactly championing gay rights and are more ambivalent than anything else.
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« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2014, 03:19:20 PM »

We're still struggling with basic rights for minorities in this country, so I'm not naive enough to think that gay rights are going to be universally accepted as the right thing.  I was just making an off the cuff remark that reflects where I'd love to see this country (and the world) go someday.

Edit:  This is my favorite defense of the bill:

Quote
"This bill has nothing to do with discrimination. It's protecting basic freedoms that belong to everyone," she said, explaining that it would protect a gay photographer's decision not to work for Westboro Baptist Church, or Muslims who don't want to sell "pork sandwiches on a Saturday."

I wasn't aware pork was a legally enforced mandatory item on menus in every restaurant in America.  I also wasn't aware that freelancers had to take every job offered to them. 

Kellie Fiedorek, the woman who uttered the above quote, claims to be an attorney.  A diploma written in crayon can't be legal though, right?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 08:57:21 PM by hepcat » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2014, 10:11:58 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 25, 2014, 03:19:20 PM

We're still struggling with basic rights for minorities in this country, so I'm not naive enough to think that gay rights are going to be universally accepted as the right thing.  I was just making an off the cuff remark that reflects where I'd love to see this country (and the world) go someday.

Edit:  This is my favorite defense of the bill:

Quote
"This bill has nothing to do with discrimination. It's protecting basic freedoms that belong to everyone," she said, explaining that it would protect a gay photographer's decision not to work for Westboro Baptist Church, or Muslims who don't want to sell "pork sandwiches on a Saturday."

I wasn't aware pork was a legally enforced mandatory item on menus in every restaurant in America.  I also wasn't aware that freelancers had to take every job offered to them. 

Kellie Fiedorek, the woman who uttered the above quote, claims to be an attorney.  A diploma written in crayon can't be legal though, right?

Just to give some basis behind one of the quotes, people have been sued for refusing to photograph or provide other services to a gay wedding.   I don't agree with people who do that, but there is at least some basis for that comment being made.
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« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2014, 12:45:54 AM »

brettmcd is referring to Elaine Huguenin, the owner of Elane Photography, who was sued in 2008 for refusing to take pictures of a lesbian commitment ceremony.  She was ordered to pay a $7,000 fine for violating New Mexico's prohibition on discriminating against people based on their race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation.

I find this case particularly challenging to defend.  The principle is certainly correct: businesses shouldn't be allowed to deny service to people because they're black, or wearing yarmulkes, or holding hands with someone of the same gender.  And if this were a case of a pharmacist refusing to fill a medically prescribed birth control prescription, I'd be here to recommend rescinding the person's license.

The problem with this specific case is that photography is literally an art form, and the idea of legally requiring someone to produce art about a topic or event they hate is a tough sell.  You might be able to coerce someone into showing up and grudgingly snapping a few shots, but even if they're technically competent, it's hard to imagine anyone feeling happy with the results.

This raises the question: isn't cooking also an art form, and should chefs and restauranteurs be allowed to deny service to people based on their base prejudices.  I'd say the difference is that, while a great chef should love their food regardless of who eats it, I think a great photographer has to care about the subjects of their photos to produce good work.  You can't force someone not to be bigoted jerkoff, and when it comes to something as subjective as artistically commemorating a major life event, I think I'd rather know if my prospective photographer was planning to grit her teeth with rage through the whole thing.

Of course, once you carve out an exception for wedding photographers, you're bound to see Walmart QuikSnap operators, dance instructors, piano teachers, and dental hygienists start whining about how their creative muses can't possibly survive exposure to gay people, interracial families, Democrats, or whatever their personal little bugaboos are.  So ultimately, the best plan is still to force them to grow the hell up.

-Autistic Angel
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