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Harpua3
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« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2014, 12:38:37 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on January 20, 2014, 11:18:31 AM

Quote from: Harpua3 on January 20, 2014, 11:02:46 AM

Quote from: TiLT on January 18, 2014, 03:02:14 PM

Quote from: Arclight on January 17, 2014, 03:35:14 PM

I don't like you Tilt. Just being honest. But I respect your beliefs.
Who you are in real life no one knows.
But here, here you're an arrogant know it all, who jumps on anyone with a stron belief. Who critizes spelling over the topic.
Who attacks the person, instead of the topic at hand.
You're just someone who's developed an online persona that has become who we know at "tilt" today.

Wow Arclight, if you actually want me to read your post, try not to start it with insults and personal attacks. Even better, don't confuse me with someone else, because apart from the part about arrogance, which I can certainly see how you'd get the impression of me being, none of the things you mention are things I do. Feel free to dig up posts that prove otherwise. I very specifically don't engage in ad hominems, which is what you're saying I do. I don't criticize spelling over the topic. I address the topic. I don't attack people (unless they've attacked me first, and even then I try to restrain myself from answering in the same vein. Notice how this post isn't an ad hominem, for example). I attack their arguments. I don't jump on anyone with a strong belief. I challenge those who confuse beliefs with facts, or who use facts they don't understand to explain beliefs they have (this latter part is what I did with you in my last post, for the record).

But let's make it simple: Personal attacks are against the rules for this forum. If you find me committing those, use the report button. In the same vein, I'm using the report button on your post, because it's a personal attack.

Have a nice day.

I spoke too soon. tear

Wait, are you saying that Arclight's post was okay, but mine isn't?

Nope. Just saying, as unfortunately things fall in day to day life, I wish this wouldn't happen. I'm not a fan of confrontation. Just wish all would converse in a healthy way.
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TiLT
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« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2014, 12:54:26 PM »

Quote from: Harpua3 on January 20, 2014, 12:38:37 PM

Quote from: TiLT on January 20, 2014, 11:18:31 AM

Quote from: Harpua3 on January 20, 2014, 11:02:46 AM

Quote from: TiLT on January 18, 2014, 03:02:14 PM

Quote from: Arclight on January 17, 2014, 03:35:14 PM

I don't like you Tilt. Just being honest. But I respect your beliefs.
Who you are in real life no one knows.
But here, here you're an arrogant know it all, who jumps on anyone with a stron belief. Who critizes spelling over the topic.
Who attacks the person, instead of the topic at hand.
You're just someone who's developed an online persona that has become who we know at "tilt" today.

Wow Arclight, if you actually want me to read your post, try not to start it with insults and personal attacks. Even better, don't confuse me with someone else, because apart from the part about arrogance, which I can certainly see how you'd get the impression of me being, none of the things you mention are things I do. Feel free to dig up posts that prove otherwise. I very specifically don't engage in ad hominems, which is what you're saying I do. I don't criticize spelling over the topic. I address the topic. I don't attack people (unless they've attacked me first, and even then I try to restrain myself from answering in the same vein. Notice how this post isn't an ad hominem, for example). I attack their arguments. I don't jump on anyone with a strong belief. I challenge those who confuse beliefs with facts, or who use facts they don't understand to explain beliefs they have (this latter part is what I did with you in my last post, for the record).

But let's make it simple: Personal attacks are against the rules for this forum. If you find me committing those, use the report button. In the same vein, I'm using the report button on your post, because it's a personal attack.

Have a nice day.

I spoke too soon. tear

Wait, are you saying that Arclight's post was okay, but mine isn't?

Nope. Just saying, as unfortunately things fall in day to day life, I wish this wouldn't happen. I'm not a fan of confrontation. Just wish all would converse in a healthy way.

Agreed. My post was meant to end that confrontational line of discussion entirely, as it doesn't belong in this forum.
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ATB
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« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2014, 04:06:03 PM »

You realize this is R&P, right?  slywink
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TiLT
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« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2014, 06:18:21 PM »

Quote from: ATB on January 20, 2014, 04:06:03 PM

You realize this is R&P, right?  slywink

Absolutely! I realize these are topics that tend to breed resentment and some degree of anger between people, but in a community like ours, personal attacks are always uncalled for.
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Harpua3
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« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2014, 07:41:17 PM »

Quote from: ATB on January 20, 2014, 04:06:03 PM

You realize this is R&P, right?  slywink

Watch it, or you'll be next! Tongue

Here it is.........

Why can't everybody just get along?
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« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2014, 07:53:49 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on January 17, 2014, 03:35:14 PM

The "theory" of evolution is not, in anyway shape or form scientific fact. Go to a debate in any of the top universities that are hosting the Creation Research Scientists...They will shake you to your core with facts. Theory is that, theory. If it was a proven "fact" it wouldn't be called a theory.

Again proving Isgrimnur's point from earlier in the thread.
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TiLT
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« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2014, 08:11:36 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on January 20, 2014, 07:53:49 PM

Quote from: Arclight on January 17, 2014, 03:35:14 PM

The "theory" of evolution is not, in anyway shape or form scientific fact. Go to a debate in any of the top universities that are hosting the Creation Research Scientists...They will shake you to your core with facts. Theory is that, theory. If it was a proven "fact" it wouldn't be called a theory.

Again proving Isgrimnur's point from earlier in the thread.

I wish it was possible to just toss the word "theory" out the window. The fact that it has two definitions that are wildly different yet deceivingly similar is causing so many problems, and those who mistake the two words very often (speaking from my own, anecdotal experience, I really should say "almost always" instead of "very often") refuse to accept that there's a difference. Scientific theories should have been called something else to avoid the confusion. They have nothing to do with the casual use of the word, which for example Arclight is using in his argument.

As long as the word "theory" continues to be (willfully?) misused by those on the side of creationism, these discussions are going nowhere.
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Ironrod
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« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2014, 11:06:50 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on January 20, 2014, 08:11:36 PM

Quote from: Gratch on January 20, 2014, 07:53:49 PM

Quote from: Arclight on January 17, 2014, 03:35:14 PM

The "theory" of evolution is not, in anyway shape or form scientific fact. Go to a debate in any of the top universities that are hosting the Creation Research Scientists...They will shake you to your core with facts. Theory is that, theory. If it was a proven "fact" it wouldn't be called a theory.

Again proving Isgrimnur's point from earlier in the thread.

I wish it was possible to just toss the word "theory" out the window. The fact that it has two definitions that are wildly different yet deceivingly similar is causing so many problems, and those who mistake the two words very often (speaking from my own, anecdotal experience, I really should say "almost always" instead of "very often") refuse to accept that there's a difference. Scientific theories should have been called something else to avoid the confusion. They have nothing to do with the casual use of the word, which for example Arclight is using in his argument.

As long as the word "theory" continues to be (willfully?) misused by those on the side of creationism, these discussions are going nowhere.

The leaders of the movement presumably understand what a scientific theory is -- they must, if they intend to position themselves as scientists. Their followers do not, so "just a theory" is an easy shorthand for people who aren't going to follow the evidence anyway.

At what point does a "theory" become a "law"? I think the latter term, as in "law of gravity," is informal. So how about we all agree to call it the "law of evolution?"  icon_wink
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2014, 11:27:11 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on January 20, 2014, 08:11:36 PM

As long as the word "theory" continues to be (willfully?) misused by those on the side of creationism, these discussions are going nowhere.


Just remember that when people like Arclight handwave decades of peer-reviewed scientific data because it amounts to "nothing but a theory," their alternative explanation has no data, no verification, and is just a bunch of stuff they've made up.

A long time ago, people believed that animals died off during the winter months, only to spring from the earth anew when God turned the sun back up.  They called it "Spontanous Generation," and used the examples of how God could instantly create a wilderness filled with birds, fish, frogs, insects, and bears as an example of His glory.

Then the scientific method was invented and people started actually examining biological phenomenon like migration, spawning cycles, metamorphosis, and hibernation.  Over time, people eventually understood that God wasn't really resurrecting every species every year, but that they were acting on millennia of evolutionary instinct to survive and procreate.

Today, people like Arclight no longer dismiss the idea that tadpoles turn into frogs, caterpillars become butterflies, or carrion fly eggs hatch into maggots.  They instead fabricate stories about things that happened millions of years hundreds of years ago when God first wished the Earth into existence.  They proclaim -- just as they did with Spontaneous Generation -- that it's the Only Logical Explanation!  Sometimes they even dress up in lab coats with a blue pen in the breast pocket and introduce themselves as

Quote from: Arclight on January 17, 2014, 03:35:14 PM

Creation Research Scientists...They will shake you to your core with facts.


But remember: it's just the same old ignorance.

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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2014, 11:32:15 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on January 20, 2014, 07:53:49 PM

Quote from: Arclight on January 17, 2014, 03:35:14 PM

The "theory" of evolution is not, in anyway shape or form scientific fact. Go to a debate in any of the top universities that are hosting the Creation Research Scientists...They will shake you to your core with facts. Theory is that, theory. If it was a proven "fact" it wouldn't be called a theory.

Again proving Isgrimnur's point from earlier in the thread.

Thanks for not making me re-post it.  I will, however, expand on the quote from the same page.

Quote
Scientific theories are testable and make falsifiable predictions.

Quote
At what point does a "theory" become a "law"? I think the latter term, as in "law of gravity," is informal.

Scientific laws are actually looser than theories.

Quote
A scientific law is a statement based on repeated experimental observations that describes some aspect of the world. A scientific law always applies under the same conditions, and implies that there is a causal relationship involving its elements.
...
A law differs from a scientific theory in that it does not posit a mechanism or explanation of phenomena: it is merely a distillation of the results of repeated observation. As such, a law is limited in applicability to circumstances resembling those already observed, and is often found false when extrapolated. ... Newton's law of universal gravitation only applies in weak gravitational fields
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« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2014, 11:50:35 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on January 20, 2014, 08:11:36 PM

As long as the word "theory" continues to be (willfully?) misused by those on the side of creationism, these discussions are going nowhere.

These discussions are going nowhere regardless of the meaning of the word theory. I have a fundamentalist friend I used to argue with, which can be fun, but he is never going to change his ideas of god and religion no matter what I or any other atheist says to him. They have their belief system which means everything to them, so they are not going to listen to any logic or science on the matter. Arclight's argument is atheist debate 101 (floating tea cups etc), but nothing anyone can say to counter it will be taken seriously by him.

These arguments are all pointless outside of the fun of the debate and will usually just leave everyone involved frustrated in my experience. I will give Arclight credit for trying, but it's too bad he broke down into insults. (Why Harpua3 quoted Tilt's response as crossing the line instead of Arclight's was beyond me.)
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« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2014, 03:13:20 AM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on January 20, 2014, 11:32:15 PM


Scientific laws are actually looser than theories.

Quote
A scientific law is a statement based on repeated experimental observations that describes some aspect of the world. A scientific law always applies under the same conditions, and implies that there is a causal relationship involving its elements.
...
A law differs from a scientific theory in that it does not posit a mechanism or explanation of phenomena: it is merely a distillation of the results of repeated observation. As such, a law is limited in applicability to circumstances resembling those already observed, and is often found false when extrapolated. ... Newton's law of universal gravitation only applies in weak gravitational fields

Interesting. Colloquially, a law trumps a theory; scientifically, the opposite is true. Religion is about revealed truth; science is about revealing truth. A creationist starts with a conclusion and selects evidence to support it; a scientist does the opposite. A creationist believes that evolution is false because it is under constant revision; a scientist dismisses creationism because it dismisses all contradictory evidence.

No wonder the two sides can never see eye to eye. They can't even agree on a vocabulary.
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Gratch
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« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2014, 03:23:22 AM »

Quote from: Lee on January 20, 2014, 11:50:35 PM

I have a fundamentalist friend I used to argue with, which can be fun, but he is never going to change his ideas of god and religion no matter what I or any other atheist says to him.

Nor should he.  Look, I have no issue with anyone having faith in a higher power.  Hell, Mrs. Gratch is an devout Mormon, goes to church every Sunday, says prayers before every meal, etc. and I'm totally cool with that.  I don't agree with any of it, mind you, but I respect her right to believe as she does.  Same goes for Arclight and his beliefs.  I find everything he believes to be utterly absurd, but if it makes him a better person, then more power to him. 

What I do take issue with, however, are those who either a) willfully misuse science and scientific theory to try and support their faith (which is the crux of this discussion) or b) those who deny rights to others under the cloak of their faith and belief.  Neither of those are acceptable and completely deserving of ridicule.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 03:26:41 AM by Gratch » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2014, 04:11:57 AM »

When Neil deGrasse Tyson has given up, we're not going to settle it on a gaming board.

I have no issues with people thinking and believing what they want.  But when they try to shape public policy and change what every child learns in a science class, I will fight them every step of the way. 
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« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2014, 04:34:40 AM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on January 21, 2014, 04:11:57 AM

When Neil deGrasse Tyson has given up, we're not going to settle it on a gaming board.

I have no issues with people thinking and believing what they want.  But when they try to shape public policy and change what every child learns in a science class, I will fight them every step of the way. 

That was a great clip, thanks for linking to it.
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« Reply #55 on: January 30, 2014, 03:13:12 AM »

The problem with debates or arguments like this, is that its about RELIGION.

Where I come from is about RELATIONSHIP. I'd be the first to agree that Religion in the organized sense, has done more harm over the centuries than good. It was organized Religion in the Day of Jesus that took Him to the Cross.

I should have realized what this would end up being before posting. If you get into debates about theories, fact, blind faith, evolution, creationism..........Its ground that is shaky from the onset.
I have a relationship with Jesus. Where that leads me, I don't know. But I love, and worship Him, not a Church. Where ever 2 or more are gathered in His name, there will He be in the midst. Basically the essence of church.
My life was changed by meeting Jesus, not attending Church. But discussion like this are not about Christianity, they are about politics. And that's what the organized Church is to people, another political party.

Again, I'm about relationship, and filling holes, and voids in peoples hearts. People who think they're not sick don't need a doctor. But there are plenty of people who do know the deficit they face in their inner man everyday. That's what I care about. Truly.

So I'll say my, Amen to that and walk away from another well meaning theological debate that is doomed from the start. I'm still learning.
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« Reply #56 on: January 30, 2014, 05:42:11 AM »

It's great that your RELATIONSHIP with JESUS works for you. Don't assume that those of us who don't have that RELATIONSHIP are missing out. There are plenty of things I think everyone would benefit from, then I remember not everyone is like me. Sadly.
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« Reply #57 on: January 30, 2014, 05:48:59 AM »

Quote from: Arclight on January 30, 2014, 03:13:12 AM

The problem with debates or arguments like this, is that its about RELIGION.

Where I come from is about RELATIONSHIP. I'd be the first to agree that Religion in the organized sense, has done more harm over the centuries than good. It was organized Religion in the Day of Jesus that took Him to the Cross.

Actually, the debate is about SCIENCE. RELIGION is a merely peripheral part of it, and only because CHRISTIANITY decided to start poking in places where it doesn't belong.

Are you even reading our POSTS?
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« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2014, 01:54:49 PM »

Quote from: Lee on January 30, 2014, 05:42:11 AM

It's great that your RELATIONSHIP with JESUS works for you. Don't assume that those of us who don't have that RELATIONSHIP are missing out.

I almost posted this exact sentiment last night, but decided it wasn't worth the effort.  Since you said it better than I would have, I'll just add a big +1.
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« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2014, 04:01:08 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on January 30, 2014, 05:48:59 AM

Quote from: Arclight on January 30, 2014, 03:13:12 AM

The problem with debates or arguments like this, is that its about RELIGION.

Where I come from is about RELATIONSHIP. I'd be the first to agree that Religion in the organized sense, has done more harm over the centuries than good. It was organized Religion in the Day of Jesus that took Him to the Cross.

Actually, the debate is about SCIENCE. RELIGION is a merely peripheral part of it, and only because CHRISTIANITY decided to start poking in places where it doesn't belong.

Are you even reading our POSTS?
And I suppose once again you consider this a non inflammatory post aimed at me?
Are YOU even reading what you write. Seriously Tilt, stay away from my posts, after all, they aren't aimed at you, so do me a favor would ya?
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« Reply #60 on: January 30, 2014, 04:09:24 PM »

Quote from: Lee on January 30, 2014, 05:42:11 AM

It's great that your RELATIONSHIP with JESUS works for you. Don't assume that those of us who don't have that RELATIONSHIP are missing out. There are plenty of things I think everyone would benefit from, then I remember not everyone is like me. Sadly.
Where did I 'assume' that? about you. If you had found something, something that change your life for the better, how would you respond? Would you selfishly hide it away from all others being content for you alone to feel good about life? Or would you, given the opportunity not want to tell others? Again, I have never, ever started a thread about Christianity, or Faith, or Religion. I consider any post here that doesn't directly say, "Arclight, you're opinions aren't welcomed"as a place to put my voice to keyboard. Tilt so zealously points out my lack of comprehension in the topics at hand, and that I don't think before I post. But when you're hell bent to oppose a person's belief you will see all manner of opportunities to pull them up short. Again, this is normal behavior, its not unique to these forums. Its the age old problem of, you're not like me, so therefore you're wrong. I have never insinuated that with anyone here. I have never assumed anyone here is missing out. Where you read that in my posts is baffling to me. And just let me say, that Im not the only one here that believes in Jesus, and His power to save. We'll leave it at that. Some are wiser than me. They have fully learned that posts like this are anathema and they stay far away.
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« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2014, 04:37:40 PM »

Quote from: Arclight on January 30, 2014, 04:09:24 PM

Where did I 'assume' that? about you....I have never assumed anyone here is missing out. Where you read that in my posts is baffling to me.

From your post yesterday:  
Quote
"Again, I'm about relationship, and filling holes, and voids in peoples hearts. People who think they're not sick don't need a doctor. "

This implies (at least to me) that you assume everyone that hasn't found Jesus is "sick" and in need of saving of some sort.  I'm sure you see how that sentiment could rub those of us who find plenty of meaning in our lives without Jesus a little wrong.  Perhaps I misunderstood your intent, but it looks like I wasn't the only one.  
« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 04:41:17 PM by Gratch » Logged

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« Reply #62 on: January 31, 2014, 03:37:57 PM »

Quote from: Gratch on January 30, 2014, 04:37:40 PM

Quote from: Arclight on January 30, 2014, 04:09:24 PM

Where did I 'assume' that? about you....I have never assumed anyone here is missing out. Where you read that in my posts is baffling to me.

From your post yesterday:  
Quote
"Again, I'm about relationship, and filling holes, and voids in peoples hearts. People who think they're not sick don't need a doctor. "

This implies (at least to me) that you assume everyone that hasn't found Jesus is "sick" and in need of saving of some sort.  I'm sure you see how that sentiment could rub those of us who find plenty of meaning in our lives without Jesus a little wrong.  Perhaps I misunderstood your intent, but it looks like I wasn't the only one.  

Not at all Gratch. Assumptions without clarification cause so many rifts. I am available to anyone who wants to know my hope, my reason for faith in the finished work of the Cross. I didn't name names, I didn't point fingers. I was saying how I approach situations I find myself in relationship wise. Sometimes people have pre-conceived ideas of what  a certain group, or certain beliefs are all about. Either caused by Hollywoods mind bending effect over people by portraying people in a certain light, all the time. Some people think that all Christians are the same. That all Christians are like those portrayed by Hollywood. So with preconception comes the subtle interpretation of things being said by people, in this case Christians.
You don't know me. Yet you've put me into that group of Christians that most people find offensive. I am a Christian I make absolutely no concessions on that. But I can't speak for anyone else. All I ask is that you don't lump me into molds of preconception formed by others about my beliefs.

People who love, are passionate about what they love. You all know that. I'm passionate about gaming, but not nearly as passionate about the one who saved my life. I was a drugged out Hippie in the 60's and 70's..I became addicted to heroin. I was a crook who hung out with other crooks, I served time because of that. I had a chip on my shoulder as big as Mt. McKinley. I would get so drunk I'd black out, find out the nest morning that I'd smacked the shit out a person who was my friend. I was on the run across Canada for crimes commited. I ran to the Army, it helped so much, but the hole in my life was as big as ever. I was just filling it with violence that I vented by firing weapons, and pulling the lanyard on a 155mm Howitzer. I became a alcoholic in the Army. I tried to commit suicide. I hated life. A very much longer story shortened. Someone told me about Jesus. I haven't been the same for over 35 years. So for me, you can see how I feel about my Lord and Saviour. I don't assume everyone is in need of my witnessing. But if there is a topic or conversation that is open to all joining in, I will everytime. I was invited to share my thoughts in this thread. Did I come in the thread rubbing my hands saying to myself, aha, time to gather more souls into the Kingdom? No I didn't.
But preconception helped people misunderstand me and misconstrue my intentions. I've been a lot of places in the World with Youth With A Mission, a Christian organization dedicated to the Gospel, and helping 3rd World countries. Suffice it to say, people are people no matter where you go. I've had this "conversation" in all the places I've travelled. But that doesn't stop me from believing what I believe. If I'm guilty of anything its wanting others who feel lonely, hopeless, frustrated, etc, to meet Jesus the way I did. I'm not saying Im better than anyone. I'm just a person who was saved from those things, and want to be available to tell my story if anyone asks.

I have no other motives. That was me in the old life.
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« Reply #63 on: January 31, 2014, 07:39:39 PM »



Quite a few people who are without faith sure seem to be militantly so, and militantly paranoid that any comment is some sort of an affront to their non-belief.

Some of you guys have religion, you just don't realize it.   It's the religion of non-belief.
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« Reply #64 on: January 31, 2014, 08:07:26 PM »

Non-belief isn't a religion. The word "religion" holds a very specific meaning which you are twisting to support... something? I'm not sure what. You're implying that anything a person makes a conscious decision about is a religious choice, which is of course ridiculous. And militant? Give me a break!

This discussion has been a wall. Arclight threw out accusations against science that were easily (and promptly) debunked with actual arguments and evidence. His response was to completely ignore these arguments and this evidence and repeat his original statement along with insults and negatively loaded implications. Things naturally soured at this point. Only one side is actually presenting any arguments that can be backed up in this discussion, and that very same side isn't lashing out in aggression. Yet you call them militant?

Arclight isn't being persecuted here. He offered his viewpoint and challenged the one of others present. They responded with arguments of their own, but he saw it as persecution for some reason.

Religion is a personal thing, but once you toss it out in public and start to challenge the viewpoints of others (viewpoints not based on faith too, I might add), you must be able to accept that others will challenge yours back. Those who follow the scientific method are willing to accept these challenges and will argue back, but there's only so many times this forum can repeat the "but it's just a theory" argument before they grow tired of repeating the same thing that those of strong faith are unwilling to even read.

The very basis of a healthy discussion is that it consists of two sides that exchange information. Otherwise it becomes monologue. In this case one side only gives, but doesn't take. Hint: It's not the scientific side.
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Lee
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« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2014, 12:02:20 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on January 31, 2014, 07:39:39 PM



Quite a few people who are without faith sure seem to be militantly so, and militantly paranoid that any comment is some sort of an affront to their non-belief.

Some of you guys have religion, you just don't realize it.   It's the religion of non-belief.

Yes, there are aggressive atheists. Yes some atheists make a religion out of it. Never seen an atheist be as in your face aggressive as I have seen Christians on many many occasions. Never had an atheist knock on my door either.

Atheists tend to get that way because the way they are treated as well. As polls have shown, atheists as a group are hated. They get their fair share of disrespect. Just saying you're atheist is usually not a wise thing to do in a group setting.
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Lee
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« Reply #66 on: February 01, 2014, 12:10:18 AM »

Quote from: Arclight on January 31, 2014, 03:37:57 PM

Sometimes people have pre-conceived ideas of what  a certain group, or certain beliefs are all about. Either caused by Hollywoods mind bending effect over people by portraying people in a certain light, all the time. Some people think that all Christians are the same. That all Christians are like those portrayed by Hollywood. So with preconception comes the subtle interpretation of things being said by people, in this case Christians.

You lost me by saying that Christians might be misunderstood because of Hollywood's portrayal. I am not even sure what portrayal you are talking about, it's usually a subject avoided. The Christians I have met throughout my life have given me the opinion of Christianity that I have.
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« Reply #67 on: February 01, 2014, 01:43:19 AM »

Quote from: Lee on February 01, 2014, 12:10:18 AM

Quote from: Arclight on January 31, 2014, 03:37:57 PM

Sometimes people have pre-conceived ideas of what  a certain group, or certain beliefs are all about. Either caused by Hollywoods mind bending effect over people by portraying people in a certain light, all the time. Some people think that all Christians are the same. That all Christians are like those portrayed by Hollywood. So with preconception comes the subtle interpretation of things being said by people, in this case Christians.

You lost me by saying that Christians might be misunderstood because of Hollywood's portrayal. I am not even sure what portrayal you are talking about, it's usually a subject avoided. The Christians I have met throughout my life have given me the opinion of Christianity that I have.

Agreed.  Hollywood has exactly zero impact or influence on either my own personal spiritual beliefs, or my opinions of those who differ.
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« Reply #68 on: February 01, 2014, 10:05:27 AM »

Before we go lumping people into groups here, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not an atheist. Atheism does require a bit of faith ("there are no gods. I can't prove it, but I'm certain!"), which I'm not comfortable with. Consider me a non-believing agnostic. To me, everything points against earthly religions being right, but who's to say there isn't something out there that humanity would consider a god? Not me, at least.
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« Reply #69 on: February 01, 2014, 11:22:38 AM »

Quote from: TiLT on February 01, 2014, 10:05:27 AM

Before we go lumping people into groups here, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not an atheist. Atheism does require a bit of faith ("there are no gods. I can't prove it, but I'm certain!"), which I'm not comfortable with. Consider me a non-believing agnostic. To me, everything points against earthly religions being right, but who's to say there isn't something out there that humanity would consider a god? Not me, at least.

This is me as well, I am not really an atheist. The problem is that if you say agnostic to a Christian they assume you could be in doubt about the Christian God, which I am not. It's easier to just say I am atheist.

Honestly it's gotten to the point where I would rather avoid the subject in person. It used to be fun to argue, now it seems people either feel I need their help, or there is a certain amount of disdain about it.
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« Reply #70 on: February 01, 2014, 04:24:00 PM »

Quote from: Lee on February 01, 2014, 11:22:38 AM

Quote from: TiLT on February 01, 2014, 10:05:27 AM

Before we go lumping people into groups here, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not an atheist. Atheism does require a bit of faith ("there are no gods. I can't prove it, but I'm certain!"), which I'm not comfortable with. Consider me a non-believing agnostic. To me, everything points against earthly religions being right, but who's to say there isn't something out there that humanity would consider a god? Not me, at least.

This is me as well, I am not really an atheist. The problem is that if you say agnostic to a Christian they assume you could be in doubt about the Christian God, which I am not. It's easier to just say I am atheist.

Honestly it's gotten to the point where I would rather avoid the subject in person. It used to be fun to argue, now it seems people either feel I need their help, or there is a certain amount of disdain about it.

Religion is an absolute non starter discussion for me in person (and for the most part, on the internets). It's 100% pointless to discuss.
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« Reply #71 on: February 01, 2014, 04:34:57 PM »

Quote from: gellar on February 01, 2014, 04:24:00 PM

Quote from: Lee on February 01, 2014, 11:22:38 AM

Quote from: TiLT on February 01, 2014, 10:05:27 AM

Before we go lumping people into groups here, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not an atheist. Atheism does require a bit of faith ("there are no gods. I can't prove it, but I'm certain!"), which I'm not comfortable with. Consider me a non-believing agnostic. To me, everything points against earthly religions being right, but who's to say there isn't something out there that humanity would consider a god? Not me, at least.

This is me as well, I am not really an atheist. The problem is that if you say agnostic to a Christian they assume you could be in doubt about the Christian God, which I am not. It's easier to just say I am atheist.

Honestly it's gotten to the point where I would rather avoid the subject in person. It used to be fun to argue, now it seems people either feel I need their help, or there is a certain amount of disdain about it.

Religion is an absolute non starter discussion for me in person (and for the most part, on the internets). It's 100% pointless to discuss.

Science isn't pointless to discuss though, and that's the big thorn in this discussion, the idea that evolution or the Big Bang are both "just theories". That is religion bursting into something it doesn't understand. Attempts to challenge this intrusion are met with responses as if religion was being attacked, when what's really being attacked is faulty and misunderstood science, and words that are being used to describe something they're not designed for.
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« Reply #72 on: February 01, 2014, 05:15:00 PM »

This isn't the first time Arclight has complained about the Hollywood conspiracy to make Christians appear homophobic, sanctimonious, judgmental, and broadly ignorant.  He said the same thing upon entering the Duck Dynasty thread.  

It was just before he condemned homosexuality as sinful; perverted some biblical parables about compassion and acceptance into a defense of bigotry; and snidely dismissed science as a godless form of blind faith.

-Autistic Demon
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« Reply #73 on: February 01, 2014, 05:45:42 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on February 01, 2014, 04:34:57 PM

Quote from: gellar on February 01, 2014, 04:24:00 PM

Quote from: Lee on February 01, 2014, 11:22:38 AM

Quote from: TiLT on February 01, 2014, 10:05:27 AM

Before we go lumping people into groups here, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not an atheist. Atheism does require a bit of faith ("there are no gods. I can't prove it, but I'm certain!"), which I'm not comfortable with. Consider me a non-believing agnostic. To me, everything points against earthly religions being right, but who's to say there isn't something out there that humanity would consider a god? Not me, at least.

This is me as well, I am not really an atheist. The problem is that if you say agnostic to a Christian they assume you could be in doubt about the Christian God, which I am not. It's easier to just say I am atheist.

Honestly it's gotten to the point where I would rather avoid the subject in person. It used to be fun to argue, now it seems people either feel I need their help, or there is a certain amount of disdain about it.

Religion is an absolute non starter discussion for me in person (and for the most part, on the internets). It's 100% pointless to discuss.

Science isn't pointless to discuss though, and that's the big thorn in this discussion, the idea that evolution or the Big Bang are both "just theories". That is religion bursting into something it doesn't understand. Attempts to challenge this intrusion are met with responses as if religion was being attacked, when what's really being attacked is faulty and misunderstood science, and words that are being used to describe something they're not designed for.

Still not worth it. The point of discussion is to have debate and understand each others viewpoints. That doesn't happen with people passionate on either side of religion. Once it comes up, it is the turd in the punchbowl.
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« Reply #74 on: February 01, 2014, 07:38:26 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on February 01, 2014, 05:15:00 PM

This isn't the first time Arclight has complained about the Hollywood conspiracy to make Christians appear homophobic, sanctimonious, judgmental, and broadly ignorant.  He said the same thing upon entering the Duck Dynasty thread.  

It was just before he condemned homosexuality as sinful; perverted some biblical parables about compassion and acceptance into a defense of bigotry; and snidely dismissed science as a godless form of blind faith.

-Autistic Demon

Are you ever not condescending when posting in this part of the forums?
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« Reply #75 on: February 06, 2014, 10:39:29 AM »

Quote from: gellar on February 01, 2014, 05:45:42 PM

Quote from: TiLT on February 01, 2014, 04:34:57 PM

Quote from: gellar on February 01, 2014, 04:24:00 PM

Quote from: Lee on February 01, 2014, 11:22:38 AM

Quote from: TiLT on February 01, 2014, 10:05:27 AM

Before we go lumping people into groups here, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not an atheist. Atheism does require a bit of faith ("there are no gods. I can't prove it, but I'm certain!"), which I'm not comfortable with. Consider me a non-believing agnostic. To me, everything points against earthly religions being right, but who's to say there isn't something out there that humanity would consider a god? Not me, at least.

This is me as well, I am not really an atheist. The problem is that if you say agnostic to a Christian they assume you could be in doubt about the Christian God, which I am not. It's easier to just say I am atheist.

Honestly it's gotten to the point where I would rather avoid the subject in person. It used to be fun to argue, now it seems people either feel I need their help, or there is a certain amount of disdain about it.

Religion is an absolute non starter discussion for me in person (and for the most part, on the internets). It's 100% pointless to discuss.

Science isn't pointless to discuss though, and that's the big thorn in this discussion, the idea that evolution or the Big Bang are both "just theories". That is religion bursting into something it doesn't understand. Attempts to challenge this intrusion are met with responses as if religion was being attacked, when what's really being attacked is faulty and misunderstood science, and words that are being used to describe something they're not designed for.

Still not worth it. The point of discussion is to have debate and understand each others viewpoints. That doesn't happen with people passionate on either side of religion. Once it comes up, it is the turd in the punchbowl.


Thankyou. That's all I wanted was to discuss. Bored on Christmas Day and posting my thoughts..
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