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Author Topic: A financial S storm is brewing. Fannie/Freddie seized.  (Read 8823 times)
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cheeba
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« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2008, 06:21:14 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 15, 2008, 05:27:20 AM

Let's all thank Phil Gramm, McCain economic advisor, for his contribution to this total disaster.
Jesus Christ do you ever get tired of being so apeshit partisan? Should we also thank Bill Clinton who actually signed Gramm's act into law? Nevermind, don't answer that. It's pretty clear to everyone on this forum that if the democrats told you to punch yourself in the balls you'd be singing soprano the rest of your life.
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« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2008, 12:04:36 PM »

Well, Cheeba, where exactly did I absolve Bill Clinton of responsibility?  The issue here, champ, is that Phil Gramm, who authored the two bills that're largely responsible for this current crisis, is the primary economic advisor of the current Republican candidate for President.  Did you see any democrats pushing for banking industry deregulation in the late 90s?  No, you didn't.
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« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2008, 04:07:38 PM »

Quote from: Jeff Jones on September 10, 2008, 01:07:01 AM

Quote from: Laner on September 09, 2008, 03:25:02 PM

cries of "theocracy!" should be the new Godwin's law.  Seriously, get a grip.

No sir. "Get a grip" here means, STFU and ignore the tidal wave of Christian fundamentalists who are not only voting in those with theocratic aspirations, but like Palin, are themselves becoming involved in public office and policy. Make no mistake, many Christians want the U.S. to be, not a free nation, but  a "Christian nation".

And brett, she didn't just have a nutty pastor, she was (is) one of the nuts. How much do you know about the Pentecostals, and what exactly it is they believe? They have a healthy disdain for science and want to replace it with "what the bible teaches" (aka absurdities). They believe the bible is 100% literally true. The speak in "tongues" and roll around on the floor and believe that God talks to them. It's some pretty scary stuff, and Palin was one for most of her adult life. She probably would still be (she still visits) if she didn't absolutely need to disassociate herself for political reasons.

And being the head of the most powerful military in the world and at the same time believing that unjust wars are a "mission from God" honestly scares the shit out of me. I see no difference in that and the same type radical Islamic fundamentalist rhetoric.

Palin and her ilk scare me with this stuff.  I'm not worried about her inexperience, we'll see that as plain as day.  What worries me is the 'wholesome legislation' that'll come if she's elected.  Thought police?  You betcha.
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« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2008, 05:04:34 PM »

Jebus Christ.

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msduncan
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« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2008, 06:16:34 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 15, 2008, 12:04:36 PM

Well, Cheeba, where exactly did I absolve Bill Clinton of responsibility?  The issue here, champ, is that Phil Gramm, who authored the two bills that're largely responsible for this current crisis, is the primary economic advisor of the current Republican candidate for President.  Did you see any democrats pushing for banking industry deregulation in the late 90s?  No, you didn't.

Hey......    and there goes the using of condescending terms like 'champ' again.

Woot!   I love it.   

"A person of tolerance and diversity keyed my car"   icon_lol

« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 06:19:52 PM by msduncan » Logged
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« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2008, 06:47:16 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 15, 2008, 05:27:20 AM


oh vey.  ugly isn't it? 
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Brendan
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« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2008, 06:48:04 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on September 15, 2008, 06:16:34 PM

Quote from: Brendan on September 15, 2008, 12:04:36 PM

Well, Cheeba, where exactly did I absolve Bill Clinton of responsibility?  The issue here, champ, is that Phil Gramm, who authored the two bills that're largely responsible for this current crisis, is the primary economic advisor of the current Republican candidate for President.  Did you see any democrats pushing for banking industry deregulation in the late 90s?  No, you didn't.

Hey......    and there goes the using of condescending terms like 'champ' again.

It's interesting how well-calibrated your double standard is.  Tell me, msduncan, if someone on the street called you an "apeshit partisan" who would be willing to "punch yourself in the balls", would you find that more or less insulting than "champ"?
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msduncan
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« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2008, 07:01:23 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 15, 2008, 06:48:04 PM

Quote from: msduncan on September 15, 2008, 06:16:34 PM

Quote from: Brendan on September 15, 2008, 12:04:36 PM

Well, Cheeba, where exactly did I absolve Bill Clinton of responsibility?  The issue here, champ, is that Phil Gramm, who authored the two bills that're largely responsible for this current crisis, is the primary economic advisor of the current Republican candidate for President.  Did you see any democrats pushing for banking industry deregulation in the late 90s?  No, you didn't.

Hey......    and there goes the using of condescending terms like 'champ' again.

It's interesting how well-calibrated your double standard is.  Tell me, msduncan, if someone on the street called you an "apeshit partisan" who would be willing to "punch yourself in the balls", would you find that more or less insulting than "champ"?

I don't think I've ever called you anything condescending on these forums.    Closest thing might be 'liberal', but I accept my label of conservative so I wouldn't expect you to shy away from that adjective.   

Should I remind you that only one of us has called the other a bigot, and names such as 'champ' and 'captain', etc.    And that person is not me.

You need to learn to be more tolerant of those that don't share your views.
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gellar
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« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2008, 07:02:53 PM »

Ladies, ladies... you're both pretty.

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Brendan
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« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2008, 07:11:37 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on September 15, 2008, 07:01:23 PM

Quote from: Brendan on September 15, 2008, 06:48:04 PM

Quote from: msduncan on September 15, 2008, 06:16:34 PM

Quote from: Brendan on September 15, 2008, 12:04:36 PM

Well, Cheeba, where exactly did I absolve Bill Clinton of responsibility?  The issue here, champ, is that Phil Gramm, who authored the two bills that're largely responsible for this current crisis, is the primary economic advisor of the current Republican candidate for President.  Did you see any democrats pushing for banking industry deregulation in the late 90s?  No, you didn't.

Hey......    and there goes the using of condescending terms like 'champ' again.

It's interesting how well-calibrated your double standard is.  Tell me, msduncan, if someone on the street called you an "apeshit partisan" who would be willing to "punch yourself in the balls", would you find that more or less insulting than "champ"?

I don't think I've ever called you anything condescending on these forums.    Closest thing might be 'liberal', but I accept my label of conservative so I wouldn't expect you to shy away from that adjective. 

Unless you're an alt of Cheeba's, I fail to see what this non-sequitur has to do with anything.

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You need to learn to be more tolerant of those that don't share your views.

This is the most ironic thing you've ever written here.
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Brendan
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« Reply #50 on: September 15, 2008, 07:16:59 PM »

Quote from: Caine on September 15, 2008, 06:47:16 PM

Quote from: Brendan on September 15, 2008, 05:27:20 AM


oh vey.  ugly isn't it? 

It certainly is.  The latest question is what'll happen with Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley.  They may not be long for this world either, according to analysts.  They're both down ~16% so far today.
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Doopri
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« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2008, 09:41:38 PM »

ms was actually in a "decent" (this term is very relative in times like these) position as far as writedowns went - meaning they were still in the teens of billions which is a lot better than many others out there.  gs should still be profitable at least in the near term (both of these are based on the last time i seriously checked).  hopefully neither of these situations deteriorate in the coming weeks / months (days???)

if ms or gs goes down it will be a complete knee jerk panic reaction.  in which case we had all better stock up on canned dog food because its going to be a long ride - i suggest alpo smile
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Brendan
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« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2008, 10:11:41 PM »

The stuff I've read suggests both may end up selling themselves to a bank - or, failing that, buy a commercial bank themselves.  I hear WaMu's available. slywink
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Brendan
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« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2008, 02:32:07 PM »

AIG's down to $2.37 today now that the ratings companies have downgraded them - they were at $47 in May.  Not good news for the largest insurance company in the world.

This will end up fucking all of us:

Quote
AIG's situation raises broader questions about the stability of the markets because the company is the world's biggest insurer and does business in nearly every country in the world. If AIG goes under, the failure will have ripple effects around the globe. "If AIG is not resolved (this) morning, then when do we stop this?" Paul Mendelsohn, chief investment strategist at Windham Financial Services, told MarketWatch.com. "The assets they would have to shed are mind-boggling. We can't let this thing fail. They take everything with it."

Meanwhile S&P downgraded WaMu to junk status, and they've lost 94% of their value over the last year.

Oh, and in other bad news:

Quote
The Fed added that it was suspending a rule that normally prohibits deposit-taking banks from using deposits to help finance their investment banking subsidiaries to allow them to fund activities normally funded in the repo market on a temporary basis until January 30 2009.

The Federal Reserve declined to comment on reports that AIG, the troubled insurance company, was seeking the ability to borrow from it as well.

Yes, they're going to use your actual money to prop up their bad investments.  Clearly what we need is less regulation right now.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 02:34:18 PM by Brendan » Logged
gellar
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« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2008, 04:52:21 PM »

This is insane.  I cannot believe the amount of piss poor decision making by some supposedly very smart (but apparently even more-so greedy) people.

gellar
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« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2008, 04:56:54 PM »

If you really want to start worrying, read this:

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When Bear was rescued the financial market rally lasted two months; when in July the Fannie and Freddie legislation was proposed the rally lasted a few weeks; when the actual nationalization of Fannie and Freddie occurred a week ago the rally lasted only one day. The ability of policy authorities to prop financial markets is rapidly eroding as market participants perceive that policy makers are desperate and running out of options. At this point the perfect financial storm of the century cannot be contained. The only light at the end of the tunnel is the one of the coming financial and economic train wreck.
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gellar
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« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2008, 05:01:29 PM »

Well my primary worry is that most of my clients are financial institutions.  When they stop spending money on fancy security toys, my commission does not happen.  THAT IS LAME, SIR.

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Blackadar
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« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2008, 01:11:53 AM »

Quote from: gellar on September 16, 2008, 04:52:21 PM

This is insane.  I cannot believe the amount of piss poor decision making by some supposedly very smart (but apparently even more-so greedy) people.

gellar

This is what happens when the architect of McCain's economic program - Phil Graham - gets to make policy.
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« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2008, 01:16:41 AM »

Quote from: Blackadar on September 17, 2008, 01:11:53 AM

Quote from: gellar on September 16, 2008, 04:52:21 PM

This is insane.  I cannot believe the amount of piss poor decision making by some supposedly very smart (but apparently even more-so greedy) people.

gellar

This is what happens when the architect of McCain's economic program - Phil Graham - gets to make policy.

And Bill Clinton's edict of expanding home ownership (even to those who couldn't afford it!) has nothing to do with any of this?
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2008, 01:38:04 AM »

For those of you who may not be aware, msduncan appears to be alluding to today's episode of The Rush Limbaugh Show in which he revealed that the current financial crisis is not actually the fault of the economic policies of the last seven years, but has been caused by Bill Clinton.

Near the end of the episode, Rush went on to explain that liberal democrats had gone so far as to secretly seize leadership of these troubled financial institutions earlier in the decade, presumably for the express purpose of triggering this sort of breakdown in the mortgage and credit industries.  I don't know if the method of this clandestine takeover was explained at some point: I didn't hear the entire episode, so perhaps the sections I missed made a little more sense.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2008, 01:43:17 AM »

Quote from: msduncan on September 17, 2008, 01:16:41 AM

Quote from: Blackadar on September 17, 2008, 01:11:53 AM

Quote from: gellar on September 16, 2008, 04:52:21 PM

This is insane.  I cannot believe the amount of piss poor decision making by some supposedly very smart (but apparently even more-so greedy) people.

gellar

This is what happens when the architect of McCain's economic program - Phil Graham - gets to make policy.

And Bill Clinton's edict of expanding home ownership (even to those who couldn't afford it!) has nothing to do with any of this?

How about finding some proof of a Clinton "edict" that we should expand home ownership to those who can't afford it?  I can sure and hell find Graham's bill that removed the oversight that could have prevented this disaster.  So do you actually have something to back up that claim, or are you being intellectually dishonest?
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« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2008, 08:55:07 AM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on September 17, 2008, 01:38:04 AM

For those of you who may not be aware, msduncan appears to be alluding to today's episode of The Rush Limbaugh Show
I'd ask what you were doing listening to Rush Limbaugh but it's been my experience that there is no room for humor on this forum.
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« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2008, 01:26:14 PM »

Quote from: cheeba on September 17, 2008, 08:55:07 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on September 17, 2008, 01:38:04 AM

For those of you who may not be aware, msduncan appears to be alluding to today's episode of The Rush Limbaugh Show
I'd ask what you were doing listening to Rush Limbaugh but it's been my experience that there is no room for humor on this forum.

I wonder if I should install a far larger rolley eyes graphic for moments like this?   I guess these will have to do. 

 icon_rolleyes
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msduncan
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« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2008, 02:20:55 PM »

Quote from: Autistic Angel on September 17, 2008, 01:38:04 AM

For those of you who may not be aware, msduncan appears to be alluding to today's episode of The Rush Limbaugh Show in which he revealed that the current financial crisis is not actually the fault of the economic policies of the last seven years, but has been caused by Bill Clinton.

Near the end of the episode, Rush went on to explain that liberal democrats had gone so far as to secretly seize leadership of these troubled financial institutions earlier in the decade, presumably for the express purpose of triggering this sort of breakdown in the mortgage and credit industries.  I don't know if the method of this clandestine takeover was explained at some point: I didn't hear the entire episode, so perhaps the sections I missed made a little more sense.

-Autistic Angel

I know this might come as a suprise to some, but I do not listen to Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levine, or Sean Hannity.     I listen exclusively to sports talk radio (specifically Finebaum, Round Table, and the Opening Drive which are local shows aimed specifically at Alabama and Auburn football).   Even during the off-season.
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« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2008, 02:21:18 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on September 17, 2008, 01:26:14 PM

Quote from: cheeba on September 17, 2008, 08:55:07 AM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on September 17, 2008, 01:38:04 AM

For those of you who may not be aware, msduncan appears to be alluding to today's episode of The Rush Limbaugh Show
I'd ask what you were doing listening to Rush Limbaugh but it's been my experience that there is no room for humor on this forum.

I wonder if I should install a far larger rolley eyes graphic for moments like this?   I guess these will have to do. 

 icon_rolleyes

Omg... I think you just proved his point.   icon_smile
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2008, 04:23:27 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on September 17, 2008, 02:20:55 PM

Quote from: Autistic Angel on September 17, 2008, 01:38:04 AM

For those of you who may not be aware, msduncan appears to be alluding to today's episode of The Rush Limbaugh Show in which he revealed that the current financial crisis is not actually the fault of the economic policies of the last seven years, but has been caused by Bill Clinton.

Near the end of the episode, Rush went on to explain that liberal democrats had gone so far as to secretly seize leadership of these troubled financial institutions earlier in the decade, presumably for the express purpose of triggering this sort of breakdown in the mortgage and credit industries.  I don't know if the method of this clandestine takeover was explained at some point: I didn't hear the entire episode, so perhaps the sections I missed made a little more sense.

-Autistic Angel

I know this might come as a suprise to some, but I do not listen to Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levine, or Sean Hannity.     I listen exclusively to sports talk radio (specifically Finebaum, Round Table, and the Opening Drive which are local shows aimed specifically at Alabama and Auburn football).   Even during the off-season.

Fair enough.  You post came right on the heels of Rush Limbaugh's explanation of how Bill Clinton is to blame for the current crisis, so I thought he might have been your inspiration. 

If you have information to share on how Clinton's presidential edicts in the mid-90's are substantially at fault for an economic collapse in 2008, I'll be interested to read more about it.

In the meantime, I think NPR's This American Life did a truly excellent episode about the mortgage collapse earlier in the year.  It talks about how a huge influx of new wealth into the global pool of money combined with a growing lack of regulation over the American housing and financial markets touched off a cycle of riskier and riskier loans.

-Autistic Angel
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Brendan
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« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2008, 04:45:08 PM »

A central underpinning of this problem are the credit default swaps made possible by the "Commodity Futures Modernization Act" that Gramm authored and his cronies in the Republican-controlled congress attached to the appropriations bill for Labor/Education/HHS in 1999 (in order to prevent Clinton from veto'ing).  After the bill enabled CDSes, banks could pass on bad mortgages to insurance companies (and other investors) rather than taking responsibility for the bad mortgage themselves.

Well done, Phil.  At least he enriched himself with it - it had a "loophole" drafted by Enron lobbyists that helped Enron avoid regulatory oversight on energy trading.  Wendy, his wife, was paid over a million bucks for serving on Enron's board.  He's considered the top candidate for the treasury position if McCain wins.

On a separate note, I think it's truly tragic that it required an act of congress to loan Chrysler a billion dollars in the 70s, and yet we, the taxpayers, are about to own 85 billion dollars worth of a badly managed insurance company, just weeks after taking over two badly managed mortgage companies.  I guess it's just another case of corporations taking their profits when times are good, but passing off their debts to the rest of us when they fuck things up.  I wonder if the CEOs who ran these companies will have trouble sleeping at night in their mansions while their employees are laid off and people are losing their homes.
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« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2008, 05:10:45 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 17, 2008, 04:45:08 PM

I wonder if the CEOs who ran these companies will have trouble sleeping at night in their mansions while their employees are laid off and people are losing their homes.

Do you really?

I know the answer.

Spoiler for Hiden:
FUCK NO.

gellar
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« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2008, 05:22:26 PM »

Isn't the Fed bailing out these compainies akin to Socialism/Communism?  Where are all the Conservatives who scream "FREE MARKET, FREE MARKET" when the Dems talk about helping people keep their homes?
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« Reply #69 on: September 17, 2008, 05:40:33 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on September 17, 2008, 05:22:26 PM

Isn't the Fed bailing out these compainies akin to Socialism/Communism?  Where are all the Conservatives who scream "FREE MARKET, FREE MARKET" when the Dems talk about helping people keep their homes?

Privatized gains and socialized losses = a capitalist's wet dream.
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« Reply #70 on: September 17, 2008, 06:00:55 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on September 17, 2008, 05:22:26 PM

Isn't the Fed bailing out these compainies akin to Socialism/Communism?  Where are all the Conservatives who scream "FREE MARKET, FREE MARKET" when the Dems talk about helping people keep their homes?

It's TOTALLY different when you *have* to (now) vs when you *want* to (Obama).  DUH.

GET WITH IT.

gellar
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« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2008, 06:34:16 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on September 17, 2008, 05:22:26 PM

Isn't the Fed bailing out these compainies akin to Socialism/Communism?  Where are all the Conservatives who scream "FREE MARKET, FREE MARKET" when the Dems talk about helping people keep their homes?

Yes it is, and I do have a serious problem with the feds bailing people out of their own mistakes, greed and stupidity.    Ive always said both out parties are socialistic in many things, its just that the dems want to go so much further down that path then the repubs.   I dont think we should be bailing these companies out, or homeowners either.
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« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2008, 06:38:13 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on September 17, 2008, 05:22:26 PM

Isn't the Fed bailing out these compainies akin to Socialism/Communism?  Where are all the Conservatives who scream "FREE MARKET, FREE MARKET" when the Dems talk about helping people keep their homes?

Yes it is.   And I've been upset by this -- even by the first bailout of the twin F's.     Government bailouts and takeovers of sections of the economy IS NOT the answer!    We are on seriously dangerous ground here.
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« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2008, 06:39:37 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on September 17, 2008, 06:34:16 PM

I dont think we should be bailing these companies out, or homeowners either.

Quote from: msduncan on September 17, 2008, 06:38:13 PM

Yes it is.   And I've been upset by this -- even by the first bailout of the twin F's.     Government bailouts and takeovers of sections of the economy IS NOT the answer!    We are on seriously dangerous ground here.

A question to the two of you then:  What, exactly, do you think would then happen to the American economy?  Any predictions to share?
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« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2008, 06:48:18 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 17, 2008, 06:39:37 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on September 17, 2008, 06:34:16 PM

I dont think we should be bailing these companies out, or homeowners either.

Quote from: msduncan on September 17, 2008, 06:38:13 PM

Yes it is.   And I've been upset by this -- even by the first bailout of the twin F's.     Government bailouts and takeovers of sections of the economy IS NOT the answer!    We are on seriously dangerous ground here.

A question to the two of you then:  What, exactly, do you think would then happen to the American economy?  Any predictions to share?


Let things sort themselves out, you cant keep trying to build the dam higher and higher and just hope it doesnt break, because when it does things are much much worse.    So what if these companies getting bailed out get to this place again, and the feds cant bail them out?   The panic will be far far worse then letting things sort themselves out now.
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« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2008, 06:53:14 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 17, 2008, 06:39:37 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on September 17, 2008, 06:34:16 PM

I dont think we should be bailing these companies out, or homeowners either.

Quote from: msduncan on September 17, 2008, 06:38:13 PM

Yes it is.   And I've been upset by this -- even by the first bailout of the twin F's.     Government bailouts and takeovers of sections of the economy IS NOT the answer!    We are on seriously dangerous ground here.

A question to the two of you then:  What, exactly, do you think would then happen to the American economy?  Any predictions to share?


I know this isn't addressed at me, but I'm gonna take a stab anyway.

It's pretty clear we have to bail these companies out.  There is no choice in the matter.  That doesn't mean I have to like it.

We should have never let ourselves get in this area in the first place.  A number of poor laws were passed that circumvented (theoretical*) free market forces.  Too many programs and loopholes were created to allow people to make ridiculously poor decisions.  These people would not have even had the OPTION to make these decisions 20 years ago, since no one would have lent to them.  I'm not saying the current conditions wouldn't exist if the government didn't dick around with the laws, but I am pretty sure they wouldn't be this bad.  

And BOTH parties were at fault here.  If the Republicans want to believe that the government that is actually in charge is a true hands off minimal government, they're insane.  Same goes to the Democrats who think that the Dems in charge didn't help cause this situation by trying to 'help' people who really shouldn't have been helped.

*theoretical because there is no such thing as a true free market.

gellar
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gellar
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« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2008, 06:54:30 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on September 17, 2008, 06:48:18 PM

Quote from: Brendan on September 17, 2008, 06:39:37 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on September 17, 2008, 06:34:16 PM

I dont think we should be bailing these companies out, or homeowners either.

Quote from: msduncan on September 17, 2008, 06:38:13 PM

Yes it is.   And I've been upset by this -- even by the first bailout of the twin F's.     Government bailouts and takeovers of sections of the economy IS NOT the answer!    We are on seriously dangerous ground here.

A question to the two of you then:  What, exactly, do you think would then happen to the American economy?  Any predictions to share?


Let things sort themselves out, you cant keep trying to build the dam higher and higher and just hope it doesnt break, because when it does things are much much worse.    So what if these companies getting bailed out get to this place again, and the feds cant bail them out?   The panic will be far far worse then letting things sort themselves out now.

I'm pretty sure we've tried to let this situation sort itself out for over a year now.  The current status is a direct result of said sorting out.

gellar
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msduncan
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« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2008, 07:18:02 PM »

I endorse everything gellar just said.

I *hate* that we are here in this position.   But we cannot let them fail at this point.

Rock---->Hard place
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kratz
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« Reply #78 on: September 17, 2008, 09:15:37 PM »

Holy shit... agreeing with gellar hurts my brain.  Agreeing with gellar AND msduncan at the same time?

I need a drink.
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cheeba
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« Reply #79 on: September 17, 2008, 09:25:42 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on September 17, 2008, 01:26:14 PM

I wonder if I should install a far larger rolley eyes graphic for moments like this?   I guess these will have to do. 

 icon_rolleyes
Odd coming from you, considering you thought I was seriously calling Michelle Obama racist for calling Barack Obama her baby's daddy.
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