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Author Topic: Your tax dollars at work  (Read 2890 times)
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Raven
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« on: May 10, 2005, 05:41:15 PM »

Shouldn't we be billing Mexico for this?
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Rob_Merritt
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2005, 05:59:13 PM »

I'm not against it. Last thing we need is a public health crisis start to spread because it remain undetected in the illegal population.
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Raven
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2005, 06:06:00 PM »

At the very least, we should protect our border, so the problem can't get any worse.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2005, 06:55:28 PM »

If Rob_Merritt is so brainwashed by the liberal press that he actually feels *good* about the idea of his tax dollars being used to provide emergency medical care to people in dire need, that's great for him.  As for me, I strongly agree with Raven and my fine conservative Republican brothers that this is an absolute outrage.  America is the greatest, most loved, most respected nation on Earth, and we earned that place by taking a hard line against helping those who are too weak or too poor to help themselves.

All I can do is to pray to Our Lord Jesus Christ that our conservative leadership fights back against this wishy-washy liberal agenda and passes sweeping new federal legislation that denies medical care to anyone who can't provide proof of citizenship in advance.

-Autistic Angel
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Raven
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2005, 07:38:10 PM »

That's very cute. It's also not working. No one is afraid of being called names just because they want the border sealed off. You're going to have to try a new tactic, but if sarcasm is all you have, I guess you might as well throw it out there, out of desperation.

More info on this subject.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041206-102115-6766r.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug25.html
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2005, 08:29:41 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
If Rob_Merritt is so brainwashed by the liberal press that he actually feels *good* about the idea of his tax dollars being used to provide emergency medical care to people in dire need, that's great for him.  As for me, I strongly agree with Raven and my fine conservative Republican brothers that this is an absolute outrage.  America is the greatest, most loved, most respected nation on Earth, and we earned that place by taking a hard line against helping those who are too weak or too poor to help themselves.

All I can do is to pray to Our Lord Jesus Christ that our conservative leadership fights back against this wishy-washy liberal agenda and passes sweeping new federal legislation that denies medical care to anyone who can't provide proof of citizenship in advance.

-Autistic Angel

*yawn*

It was funnier the first time.
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th'FOOL
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2005, 09:03:24 PM »

Nice!  Meanwhile, I still can't afford to insure my family even though I'm making more money than I ever have in my life.  Even when I was unemployed we didn't qualify for medical assistance because I was not the right ethnicity (or so I was told at the time).

 :roll:
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Mike Dunn
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2005, 09:04:43 PM »

Great.  Just F$%$ing great.  Like  I already don't pay enough taxes.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2005, 09:37:16 PM »

Quote
That's very cute. It's also not working. No one is afraid of being called names just because they want the border sealed off. You're going to have to try a new tactic, but if sarcasm is all you have, I guess you might as well throw it out there, out of desperation.


Then accept this as absolute sincerity: I strongly support your right, and the right of every other compassionate conservative to openly complain about how people should be denied access to emergency medical care.

-Autistic Angel
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Raven
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« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2005, 09:52:23 PM »

Number one, I'm not a conservative.  

I'm pro choice, pro environment, pro minimum wage increase, pro union, pro universal healthcare for American citizens, and pro drug reform.

I'm also pro death penalty, pro gun ownership, and believe affirmative action is reverse racism.

In other words, my politics are all over the map.  

But none of that has anything do with illegal immigration, and your labeling me a conservate isn't going to change the context of this discussion.

Not to mention the fact that refusing treatment has absolutely nothing to do with sealing our border, now does it.

All I'm saying is that we should protect our border, so the problem does not get any worse.
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Rob_Merritt
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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2005, 10:08:02 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"
All I'm saying is that we should protect our border, so the problem does not get any worse.


Which I wouldn't argue with.
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Autistic Angel
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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2005, 11:07:40 PM »

Quote
Not to mention the fact that refusing treatment has absolutely nothing to do with sealing our border, now does it.


So you'd like us to believe that when you titled this thread, "Your Tax Dollars At Work,' quipped, "Shouldn't we be billing Mexico for this?" and linked to an article about how the federal government is going to begin helping hospitals with the financial burden of providing emergency medical care, you were *not* complaining about your tax dollars being used to save non-American lives?

The simple fact is that "your tax dollars" are used to save non-American lives all the time.  Compare the $10 billion figure in your news articles to the cost of wars throughout history, or the amount of money spent every year by the United States in relief operations around the world.  The U.S. has a long, proud history of stepping in on behalf of the famine, disease, or war-stricken people around the world, but as loudly as the conservatives rail against operations in Kosovo or the Sudan, they're never as comfortable as when they're screaming bloody murder about providing assistance to the people in our own country.

If you want to complain about the financial costs of illegal immigration, it's in your own best interest to focus on the conversation on illegal immigrants getting significant breaks on their college tuitions or suing the federal government for not providing enough water stations for people illegally crossing the border.  Choosing to grouse about "your tax dollars" being used to help out hospitals who are providing life-saving assistance to poor people -- illegal or not -- only opens another yawning hole in the self-aggrandizing Christian conservative "Culture Of Life" schtick.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2005, 11:15:30 PM »

I guess it's easier to blame some guy who lives in a studio apartment (with 5 other people) and makes less than $20 a day for all the country's problems.

It's a sad day when giving medical aid to sick people is disparaged.  WWJD, indeed.
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Raven
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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2005, 11:35:36 PM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"


It's a sad day when giving medical aid to sick people is disparaged.  



Well, it's draining our social services dry, and by sealing our borders, the issue won't get any worse.

That's a good start isn't it?

And it's interesting that once the sarcasm doesn't work, you guys have to fall back on an emotional argument, instead.

How about an argument based on reasoning.

It's reasonable to seal our borders.

Quote


Choosing to grouse about "your tax dollars" being used to help out hospitals who are providing life-saving assistance to poor people -- illegal or not -- only opens another yawning hole in the self-aggrandizing
Christian conservative "Culture Of Life" schtick.



We are not rich enough to become the hospital to the world. We can only do so much, and our social services are straining to the breaking point.

Would you agree that our southern border should be better protected?
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2005, 11:39:49 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"
Quote from: "unbreakable"


It's a sad day when giving medical aid to sick people is disparaged.  



Well, it's draining our social services dry, and by sealing our borders, the issue won't get any worse.


And Im assuming you can back this up with fact?

Quote
How about an argument based on reasoning.


Indeed.

Quote
We are not rich enough to become the hospital to the world.


But we are rich enough to be the police force of the world?  We are rich enough to make sure every country is a democracy?

It would be far cheaper to be the hospital to the world than the two roles I cited.
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Raven
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« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2005, 11:41:54 PM »

Quote


And Im assuming you can back this up with fact?



Didn't you read the articles?
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« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2005, 11:44:10 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"
Quote


And Im assuming you can back this up with fact?



Didn't you read the articles?


Yes, as well as a great many more articles regarding how the USA spends its money.  A great many possibilities open up when you take out some of the foolish wastes of money (like corporate welfare and pork to the military).

If Bush, and others, are going to talk the talk about being a 'man of God', perhaps they should walk the walk.
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Raven
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2005, 11:53:29 PM »

Just because the Gov't waste money in other areas, does not mean this problem shouldn't be addressed.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050405/dctu073.html?.v=1
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whiteboyskim
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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2005, 11:55:31 PM »

You know, I go out of my way to avoid threads like this and here I am making a comment in one. Go figure. smile I'm a fairly conservative guy, but sealing off the borders completely sort of defeats the purpose of why America was founded in the first place. I too have beliefs that range all over the map (though unions are teh suck, IMO) and while I do like the fact that the government for once seems to have the best interests of those who can't fend for themselves at heart, turning this into a political firestorm is where I think the country has taken a serious turn for the worse over the last 30 years. Bah! Congress/Washington collectively sucks. And my wife asks why I just look at her when she asks how I'd feel being married to a politician. slywink
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Raven
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« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2005, 12:09:12 AM »

Quote
I'm a fairly conservative guy, but sealing off the borders completely sort of defeats the purpose of why America was founded in the first place.


So we should just open the doors to anyone who wants to move in, without any concern for whether our economy, infrastructure, or environment can withstand such a rapid population increase?

More insanity!
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« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2005, 01:09:37 AM »

Quote from: "Raven"


So we should just open the doors to anyone who wants to move in, without any concern for whether our economy, infrastructure, or environment can withstand such a rapid population increase?

More insanity!


1.  I think our economy can take care of itself, especially given the fact that so many companies are taking advantage of cheap immigrant labor to make more profit.  If you want to make this less of an issue, hows about enforcing the labor laws already on the books (like... minimum wage, tax withholding, etc)?  It doesnt take "Minute Men" to accomplish that, but enforcing labor laws doesnt play so well to the Fox News audience.

2.  Immigrants arent posing a burden on infrastructure.  Neglect, apathy, and lack of funding are doing that.  Again, making sure people have clean drinking water, enough police, public education, and access to heath care arent going to get Fox News any ratings, because it cant be phrased as a war against the 'damned liberals'.

3. The environment likewise has little to do with immigration.  Perhaps enforcing existing environmental laws is a better idea than repealing them and slashing the EPA budget.  But again, citing that Exxon was fined for a chemical spill doesnt play out too well on Fox News, and it will likewise cost you a nice campaign contribution.
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Raven
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« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2005, 01:24:13 AM »

Quote


1. I think our economy can take care of itself, especially given the fact that so many companies are taking advantage of cheap immigrant labor to make more profit. If you want to make this less of an issue, hows about enforcing the labor laws already on the books (like... minimum wage, tax withholding, etc)? It doesnt take "Minute Men" to accomplish that, but enforcing labor laws doesnt play so well to the Fox News audience.

2. Immigrants arent posing a burden on infrastructure. Neglect, apathy, and lack of funding are doing that.

3. The environment likewise has little to do with immigration.



Let me address these points, one by one.

1. Big Business owns our politicians. That's why Republicans and Democrats sit on their ass, and do nothing, while this problem only continues to get worse.

That's why the Minuteman are doing what they are doing. because the Gov't has been corrupted by special interest, who want cheap labor flooding into the US.

2. You mention lack of funding. Isn't that another way of saying taxes. Working american families are paying the cost of illegal immigration, though increased property taxes. Where will the funding you speak of come from?

From the bank accounts of American familes, which is where it always comes from, that's where.

3. The environment has little to do with illegal immigartion? Illegals drive cars, use water (and the SW is drying up, btw), flush toliets, and throw away trash. Of course, illegal immigration impacts our environment.
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« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2005, 01:27:37 AM »

Quote from: "Raven"
Quote


Let me address these points, one by one.

1. Big Business owns our politicians. That's why Republicans and Democrats sit on their ass, and do nothing, while this problem on continues to get worse.

That's why the Minuteman are doing what they are doing. because the Gov't has been corrupted by special interest, who want cheap labor flooding into the US.


Actually that's not the special interests. That's human nature. Why work when you can hire a dirt-cheap labor force to do the work for you? That's been going on since time began. slywink
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« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2005, 01:44:25 AM »

Quote from: "Raven"
1. Big Business owns our politicians. That's why Republicans and Democrats sit on their ass, and do nothing, while this problem only continues to get worse.

That's why the Minuteman are doing what they are doing. because the Gov't has been corrupted by special interest, who want cheap labor flooding into the US.


No, the problem isnt cheap immigrant labor, its the demand for cheap immigrant labor.  People wouldnt risk coming here if there werent jobs, would they?  So instead of having people volunteer to beat up mexicans or take bribes to look the other way, maybe its better to address the problem by enforcing already-exisiting labor laws.  But no, it's easier to blame 'the poor' than it is to blame people exploiting them.

And blaming corrupt politicians is an excuse.  And, I admit, I fall into the category of bitching too much and doing to little to correct it myself.  What people really need to do is get motivated.  Maybe if someone got people writing their representatives that more enforcement of labor laws needs to
happen, we would see things improve.  But immigrant labor is a symptom, it isnt the problem.

Quote
2. You mention lack of funding. Isn't that another way of saying taxes. Working american families are paying the cost of illegal immigration, though increased property taxes. Where will the funding you speak of come from?

From the bank accounts of American familes, which is where it always comes from, that's where.

Um, yeah.  And I suppose police, fire fighters, public health workers, etc all work for free?  Saying "taxation = evil" is a highly ignorant position.  Tax money is paid to provide services to the public for which there isnt a profitable market.  Do you want a 'for profit' fire fighter service, or police force?  Taxes are a reality.  Grow up and get over it.

It likewise ignores the illegal immigrants who have tax withheld, but dont get refunds since they arent filing.  Sounds like free money for the system to me.

Quote
3. The environment has little to do with illegal immigartion? Illegals drive cars, use water (and the SW is drying up, btw), flush toliets, and throw away trash. Of course, illegal immigration impacts our environment.


 :roll:  Talk about your tenuous connections.  

If the system is teetering so close to collapse that a rise in the immigrant population is pushing it over the edge, it sounds like the system is fucked anyway.  Again, it's blaming immigrants for something that isnt their fault.

People are being paid to maintain the infrastructure.  Try holding them accountable for not doing their jobs.
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Raven
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« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2005, 02:07:31 AM »

Quote
Taxes are a reality. Grow up and get over it.


Ok, keep it civil, or I will simply quit responding to your comments.

It's amazing to me how anyone could possibly argue that illegal immigrants don't negatively impact our environment, educational system, transportation system, crime, healthcare, and any other social issue that's important to American citizens.

It seems that you want to blame everyone except the people actually breaking the law, the "illegal" aliens themselves.
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« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2005, 02:36:32 AM »

It's just an agenda.  He hates conservatives, and anything they say, just as much as he thinks Fox News hates liberals.  For both cases, considering what the other side has to say before arguing against it is out of the question.
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Raven
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« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2005, 02:46:06 AM »

But that's just it. Plenty of Democrats are fed up with illegal immigration. It's an issue that's gone beyond both political parties.  It's not liberal or conservative, it's truely grass roots.
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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2005, 05:19:29 PM »

The whole key to this is 'illegal'.  If they need medical care, and they show up at the hospital, seems to me a good time to put them on a truck and send them back home, where they belong.

But then again, my senior senator is trying to issue visas for illegal aliens too.
http://news.bostonherald.com/politics/view.bg?articleid=82451

I am all for helping out legal immigrants -- but there are lots of people out there obeying the rules trying to come to the United States.  In my mind, they should get priority.  But if you are breaking the laws of our country, too bad.
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« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2005, 06:20:58 PM »

No, it isnt your knee-jerk accusation that liberals make excuses for everyone and hate America.  It is the rational realization that the CAUSES for the problems you describe have nothing to do with a rise in the population, be it of legal or illegal people, and have everything to do with a failure of the system to maintain those services.

Im saying the 'blame the illegal immigrants' excuse has no merit.  But keep trying to defend it, it's amusing to watch.
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Raven
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« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2005, 06:40:54 PM »

I said this:


Quote


It seems that you want to blame everyone except the people actually breaking the law, the "illegal" aliens themselves.



And you interpret it this way:

Quote from: "unbreakable"
No, it isnt your knee-jerk accusation that liberals make excuses for everyone and hate America.


At this point, I'm pretty sure you're completely irrational. I will no longer respond to your comments or post in any thread you start.

If the mods want to lock this thread, they are more than welcome to.
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« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2005, 06:55:06 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"
I said this:


Quote


It seems that you want to blame everyone except the people actually breaking the law, the "illegal" aliens themselves.



And you interpret it this way:

Quote from: "unbreakable"
No, it isnt your knee-jerk accusation that liberals make excuses for everyone and hate America.


At this point, I'm pretty sure you're completely irrational. I will no longer respond to your comments or post in any thread you start.

If the mods want to lock this thread, they are more than welcome to.


Nice way to dodge this-

Quote
It is the rational realization that the CAUSES for the problems you describe have nothing to do with a rise in the population, be it of legal or illegal people, and have everything to do with a failure of the system to maintain those services.
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« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2005, 07:07:54 PM »

Quote from: "Raven"
It's amazing to me how anyone could possibly argue that illegal immigrants don't negatively impact our environment, educational system, transportation system, crime, healthcare, and any other social issue that's important to American citizens.


There's no question that they have an impact on those services. However, is the economic benefit gained by the wider culture from the availability of illegals willing to work for, literally, illegally low wages enough to offset that "impact" should be the real question. I don't think you would like the results if we actually got rid of all those working illegally in the United States.

As for medical care, if they're here, and they seek emergency care, we have a moral obligation to provide it just as we would provide it to anyone here by birth or visa. However, I see no reason not to patch them up and then ship them home.

EDIT: Actually, I can see a reason not to do that: it might discourage them from seeking medical care, and thus create a situation that could easily foster a major public health crisis.
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« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2005, 11:08:56 AM »

For those looking for a reason to be upset, look at this page
http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_8067.shtml
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« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2005, 05:46:01 PM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
It's a sad day when giving medical aid to sick people is disparaged.  WWJD, indeed.


What would Jericho Do?

Why He'd probably berate them non Jericoholics in front of millions, then maybe beat em up for good measure.

Now is that really what we want done? smile

*this was meant to be a tension breaker, we all know Medicaid is not real, unlike wrestling, which is so real it hurts.*
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« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2005, 07:20:34 PM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
No, it isnt your knee-jerk accusation that liberals make excuses for everyone and hate America.  It is the rational realization that the CAUSES for the problems you describe have nothing to do with a rise in the population, be it of legal or illegal people, and have everything to do with a failure of the system to maintain those services.

Im saying the 'blame the illegal immigrants' excuse has no merit.  But keep trying to defend it, it's amusing to watch.


Hmm, so you're saying that an unprecidented rise in immigration, both illegal and legal since say, the 1950s has nothing to do with the failure of the system? Its the system's fault, the state/fed governments fault for all the bad planning, for not accurately 100% predicting where population trends would go, for not finding more and more ways to get more resources like water (which, is finite believe it or not)?

I'm all for allowing immigration, but if we grow too much, too fast, we're all going to suffer and likely end up like a 3rd world country with no middle class, just the haves and the have nots (something I'm sure many corporations would have no real problem with..more money/power for them). Stability will go out the window then. Will prices go up without illegal immigration? Likely yes, indeed they will but many companies will also have to start paying living wages to the "blue collar" workers in this country. If you don't, no is going to be able to afford to buy their consumer products they need to survive as a business.

Not everyone, despite laudable education goals will be able to get a college degree and make over 50k a year, hell even grads these days aren't guaranteed that. Having more and more illegals coming into this country working for low (but high for them) wages while not assimilating into our country/culture, sending back money to the mother country does not always help us. Do illegal immigrants work solely in farming these days? They're moving into construction and other fields as well. Those low wages are driving down wages as a whole in our economy, just as is competition from other countries' goods are. As for the whole "illegals never see refunds back from the IRS", there are stories of the IRS issuing illegals refunds with a tax id. Go talk to the farmers on the border about illegals and their trash and how the EPA then goes after them for not keeping their land clean.

Multiculturalism and its "we're all okay, and one big family" isn't a total load of crap but its got problems. We're a multicultural world and more tolerance, understanding is a good thing but as a country, we have to look out for ourselves. If we continue with this, "send us your huddle masses, endlessly, we've got room", while not keeping some sort of unifying identity as a country and managing that growth wisely, we're doomed to balkanize, fracture and split apart. The New Roman Empire will fall and crumble under the weight of massive bureacracy and far flung expenses. If we can keep our economy strong, stay out of debt, we can then deal with growth at home, we can then help other countries deal with their own problems with aid more effectively, at their homes, instead of taking their excess populations and making it our direct problem too.

I have no problem with the Fed. Gov. picking up these health costs, we should help those in need when we can, illegal or legal but the costs will break us with our current systems in place. Despite what many think, the US taxpayer is not a friggin money tree with an endless supply of green. What this whole situation highlights is this: Our immigration policies are not working and they are draining our resources faster than we can replenish them. If we don't change, hunker down in uncertain times (economically, technologically and politically) there isn't going to be a US to stand up for those "huddle masses" anymore.
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« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2005, 06:11:52 AM »

I've worked for the government, so I got to see firsthand our tax dollars at work.  It seemed like getting funding for something worthwhile was an uphill battle, while stupid ideas which accomplished nothing receieved wildly disgusting amounts of funding.  

So yes, I lay the blame for poor planning and execution right at the feet of those who have responsibility for it.  From what I see, most people in the public sector went there because they could never handle a job in the private sector.  But I guess with as bad as the private sector has become, that may no longer be true.  Amazingly, all the good people seem to be looking for jobs, not the people who do nothing but waste time and resources.

The country isnt 'growing too fast', the problem is it isnt growing.  The economy has been on a backward slide since 2000.  McJobs may keep people from starving to death, but they certainly arent going to help expand the economy (especially in a global marketplace).  As I said, if existing labor laws were enforced, the pool of jobs for immigrants would dry up, and there would be a necessary decrease in immigration (why go move to a foreign country to be unemployed, when you can be unemployed at home?).

The immigration issue continues to blame the immigrants rather than either law/policy makers for failing to address the real problems, as well as law enforcement bodies for failing to enforce existing labor laws.  I just read Bush is going to allow a record breaking amount of immigrants to come here for jobs in the tech industry; this is disgusting, given the horrible unemployment rate among US citizens in the tech sector.  There are programmers working as waiters because they cant find work, but it's a good idea to import foreign programmers?

Anyway, I just read a fascinating article called Baghdad Year Zero.  It really explains the "why" for a lot of what is going wrong in both this country and Iraq.  It just shows what happens when influential people get some very pie in the sky, and very fundamentally flawed, ideas, and try to execute them in the real world.
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