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Author Topic: Worth seeing a Chiropractor?  (Read 1253 times)
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Azhag
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« on: April 22, 2012, 01:59:55 PM »

So, not having ever been to one, I'm wondering if people have found chiropractor's useful... I'm only 30, but I have pretty regular lower-to-mid back pain (not crippling or anything, just there) and my posture isn't ideal. I remember when I was little once my doctor thought I had mild scoliosis, and my wife often comes over when I'm sitting at the computer and tries to get me to sit "straight" which always feels weird to me. I'm not hunched over, just a bit off. One of our guest beds is more comfortable for me so occasionally I'll sleep there and it helps temporarily.

Given that this is not necessarily severe, what can a Chiropractor actually do? Any insights/experiences?
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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2012, 03:18:22 PM »

It depends on the chiropractor. They range from terrible to miracle-workers. If you can find one, I highly recommend someone who is certified in Chiropractic Neurology. The guy I see is, and he is downright amazing. He also has a background in Neuromuscular massage, so he's kind of a double whammy. But I've been to him about several different problems, and also sent people to him. He's fixed things ranging from back pain, to wrist injuries, to muscle injuries... it's hard to exaggerate the range of stuff he effectively treats.

All that said, he's a rare one, because of his expanded skillset. He and another guy named Carrick treated Sydney Crosby for his concussion issues. These guys are off the chart. A decent chiropractor should be able to help you some. A good one should be able to make your pain go away. I know a lot of people are very dubious about them. But I know how good good ones can be and it is totally worth it.

Heck when I first started seeing one, it was after getting an appointment with the top orthopedic back surgeon in Atlanta. He told me, effectively, that some people's backs just wear out before others, and that while some physical therapy might help I was probably stuck with lower back pain and problems for the rest of my life. He said all of this with a straight face to a 30 year old elite level athlete. I didn't laugh in his face, but I did leave and go looking for answers that made sense.

I saw one chiropractor for a little while who helped but didn't completely alleviate my symptoms. Then saw the guy I see now (only if I ever have a problem) and he worked miracles. I went from back pain and stiffness on a regular basis to being pain free and limber. I'm stronger and healthier now than I was when I was 25. Your mileage may vary but that's my experience.
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Azhag
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« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2012, 03:22:05 PM »

What sorts of things do they actually do to help? I always picture either massages or some poor kid in the 1940s with a huge device hooked up to force their posture  icon_razz
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« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2012, 03:45:21 PM »

Quote from: Crux on April 22, 2012, 03:18:22 PM

I highly recommend someone who is certified in Chiropractic Neurology.

This +1000

I see Dr. Gerald Demarais in Winnipeg.

Thing about chiropractic care is more about the neurology than about the "cracking" per se. Basically, your neural pathways need to be exercised so that more info gets out to both voluntary, and involuntary muscle groups.

Can you balance on one foot?
Try it with your eyes closed.

I couldn't before-  I can now.
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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2012, 03:51:18 PM »

The guy I see actually does mostly soft tissue work. When I was having hip problems, he dug his fingers deep into my stomach area, worked around for a while and within 2 days I was better. I very rarely get 'cracks' from him - he frequently doesn't touch the skeletal stuff, but more the muscles, tendons and ligaments that surround the joints to get the body to pull itself back into alignment rather than force the bones into alignment and hope that they stay there.
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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2012, 04:20:39 PM »

I suffer from a mild scoliosis (upper back) as well, and I've been seeing chiropractors for most of my life. Out of the 5 I've used I've never had a bad one, but some are better than others. The current one I have is in the top 2 I've ever used and what I like best about his approach is he does a bit of massage before he works - he's also teamed with a massage therapist in his office.

That said, I've found power-walking 2+ miles a day while carrying 20+ lb pack backpack,  has pretty much removed my need to see a chiropractor anymore. That works well for me because I love hiking and I have some nice ubran-park trails near home. When I do get a misaligment now, I can usually set it back myself through stretching.
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SkyLander
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« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2012, 05:01:43 AM »

I haven't seen any that are listed here. The one I went to did prescribe me something that did help wonders.

But in general it's been "Chiropractors are great, the pain goes away. Then I have to go back to make the pain go away again."
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2012, 06:17:13 AM »

Quote from: SkyLander on April 23, 2012, 05:01:43 AM

I haven't seen any that are listed here. The one I went to did prescribe me something that did help wonders.

But in general it's been "Chiropractors are great, the pain goes away. Then I have to go back to make the pain go away again."

To me that's a sign of a mediocre to bad chiropractor. The good ones fix things and they stay fixed. Anyone who tells you you need to come in for 'maintenance' adjustments is not top of the line. The guy I see I only see what problems crop up, and they crop up infrequently, and usually because I've not been doing the right things to take care of myself given my sporadic activity level (intermittent bursts of extremely activity).

I took my lady to see him - she's had bad scoliosis from when she was a kid. Normal chiropractors can get her straight, and keep her that way with maintenance work. The guy I see laughs at the idea of her needing maintenance to keep her back straight. He takes people with scoliosis and makes it go away, period.
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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2012, 12:25:38 PM »

But he also provides them with maintenance steps, because of the neurology aspect.

That's the +1000 there.

At one point I had my back "click" while going down squatting ~450lbs (which was ~75% of my max - it was a new machine and I was uncertain of it)

My voluntaries shunted together to keep me together, which means cramping in about 15 minutes, I couldn't turn my head. That was the first day I went to see Dr. Gerry.

I needed to go back over the course of several months (which was WAY shorter than the last time I did physio) and I've been fine since. I think that was... 2006?

It's good to go in to get adjusted, but the frequency in which you do so is in direct relation to your health. I go 3-4 times a year regardless. If I've injured myself, it ends up being an extra 1-3 visits depending on the severity. Being a BFG (big fat guy) who DSS (does stupid shit) puts me in the injured-once-year average.

Right now it's my right inner shoulder control. My rotator takes on too much strain. If my arms are tucked in, I can do anything. If I have to do something like a DB shoulder press, or cuban press? *wince*
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2012, 12:09:12 AM »

Timely topic. I recently pinched a nerve in my neck working out, apparently between C6 & C7, which resulted in pain behind my left shoulder-blade, my left tricep is affected and tingling / numbness comes and goes in my left arm all the way down to the tip of my middle finger. My primary care doctor wanted to try Physical Therapy first, just started that last week so a little too early to know how much it will help.

Been wondering about chiropractic for this. I've seen one in the past decades ago and it was helpful, but that was for something much more minor. Anyone have any experience with chiroprators and pinched nerves?
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2012, 06:32:34 PM »

Quote from: MonkeyFinger on April 24, 2012, 12:09:12 AM

Timely topic. I recently pinched a nerve in my neck working out, apparently between C6 & C7, which resulted in pain behind my left shoulder-blade, my left tricep is affected and tingling / numbness comes and goes in my left arm all the way down to the tip of my middle finger. My primary care doctor wanted to try Physical Therapy first, just started that last week so a little too early to know how much it will help.

Been wondering about chiropractic for this. I've seen one in the past decades ago and it was helpful, but that was for something much more minor. Anyone have any experience with chiroprators and pinched nerves?

Funny you should ask about this very issue.

I've posted a number of updates throughout the health improvement thread discussing my treatments and progress.

I have two severely bulging discs at C6 and C7 with nerve impingement causing the same issues you're experiencing.  Physical therapy didn't work the first time around, I've gone through two rounds of epidural injections into the vertebrae with minimal results, I'm currently returning to PT with the hope that the injected anti-inflammatories may make PT more effective, but if none of this works then I have a surgical consultation in three weeks to discuss cleaning out the damaged discs and fusing my vertebrae.

Hopefully your injury is less severe and some basic treatment can fix the problem.  I'd hate for you to have to go through what I have thus far.

In terms of chiropractors, I had a bad experience and have zero intentions of ever returning to one.  I had severe back spasms a while back and saw a friend's chiropractor.  Not only did the treatment not help the spasming problem, but he wanted to treat other issues he perceived me to have and I left feeling that more harm was done than good.  It was painful, unpleasant, unhelpful, and ultimately pointless in treating my problem.  I equate chiropractors with voodoo and witch doctors in that I find them all to be equally ineffective.  I may be in the minority, but I don't need to hear "maybe you need a different chiropractor."  I don't "need" one, and my spine doc feels seeing a chiropractor would do me no good for my own disc issue. 

Have you seen a "real" doctor, like a spine specialist, to evaluate your problem?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 06:39:09 PM by PeteRock » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2012, 02:36:25 AM »

Hey, thanks for the reply Pete. No, I haven't gone down the specialist route, we seem to be saving that if the PT doesn't prove effective. Luckily, my situation seems to be much less severe that what it sounds like you are going through and things are getting better. My range of motion is greatly improved and the strength in my left arm is coming back. Most of the pain is gone (except during my sessions) and the frequency of the "buzzing" has decreased. It's not a speedy recovery process but my PT dude is happy with my progress and pleased that things are improving rather than deteriorating. I also took a "steroid pack" to calm the irritated nerve, a decreasing (small) dosage of Methylprednisolone that helped as well.

Looks like I'll be sticking with this and not looking around for alternatives. They mentioned surgical fusing as a 'last resort' type option, sorry to hear that might be in your future. Good luck.
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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2012, 06:11:47 AM »

Quote from: MonkeyFinger on May 03, 2012, 02:36:25 AM

Hey, thanks for the reply Pete. No, I haven't gone down the specialist route, we seem to be saving that if the PT doesn't prove effective. Luckily, my situation seems to be much less severe that what it sounds like you are going through and things are getting better. My range of motion is greatly improved and the strength in my left arm is coming back. Most of the pain is gone (except during my sessions) and the frequency of the "buzzing" has decreased. It's not a speedy recovery process but my PT dude is happy with my progress and pleased that things are improving rather than deteriorating. I also took a "steroid pack" to calm the irritated nerve, a decreasing (small) dosage of Methylprednisolone that helped as well.

Looks like I'll be sticking with this and not looking around for alternatives. They mentioned surgical fusing as a 'last resort' type option, sorry to hear that might be in your future. Good luck.

I'm happy to hear that PT is working for you.  It can work for some, especially with more minor symptoms.  I'm just unfortunately one of the few who hasn't had success yet.  We're still not completely out of options as PT followed by a 3rd injection is still preferable to intrusive correction.

Good like with your progress.  I at least was back on the softball field tonight for the first time in two months and it felt fantastic to be competing again.  Although my neck is definitely pretty stiff and I had the "buzzing" throughout both games, I'd rather be competing and in pain than sitting idle and still in pain.
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« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2012, 04:28:55 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on May 02, 2012, 06:32:34 PM

I have two severely bulging discs at C6 and C7 with nerve impingement causing the same issues you're experiencing.  Physical therapy didn't work the first time around, I've gone through two rounds of epidural injections into the vertebrae with minimal results, I'm currently returning to PT with the hope that the injected anti-inflammatories may make PT more effective, but if none of this works then I have a surgical consultation in three weeks to discuss cleaning out the damaged discs and fusing my vertebrae.

Hopefully your injury is less severe and some basic treatment can fix the problem.  I'd hate for you to have to go through what I have thus far.

In terms of chiropractors, I had a bad experience and have zero intentions of ever returning to one.  I had severe back spasms a while back and saw a friend's chiropractor.  Not only did the treatment not help the spasming problem, but he wanted to treat other issues he perceived me to have and I left feeling that more harm was done than good.  It was painful, unpleasant, unhelpful, and ultimately pointless in treating my problem.  I equate chiropractors with voodoo and witch doctors in that I find them all to be equally ineffective.  I may be in the minority, but I don't need to hear "maybe you need a different chiropractor."  I don't "need" one, and my spine doc feels seeing a chiropractor would do me no good for my own disc issue. 

Have you seen a "real" doctor, like a spine specialist, to evaluate your problem?

Pete, as I said above, chiropractors unfortunately vary wildly in their skill level and expertise. "Real" doctors refer their patients to the guy I see. He works hand in hand with the Emory Sports Medicine Clinic - they refer people back and forth all of the time. This guy and the guy who taught him work on NFL players, NHL players and other professional athletes. So there's a lot more than voodoo going on here. In fact it is cutting edge science - they deal with neurological pathways and brain activity. Hell, there are neurosurgeons who go and learn from the guy who taught my guy - he's that good.
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« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2012, 11:38:30 AM »

http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html

One very important thing to realize is that chiropracty is just over the line of being pseudoscience, aka woo, aka junk that doesn't work that they try to sell you to cure everything. It was based around the cure all idea that everything is caused by imbalance in the spine and fluids around it. Their methods are literally magic made to sound science-y. A recent study actually found a lot of the "corrections" they do are actually causing more harm, as evidenced in my link above. Also remember that chiropractors, while sounding official, aren't really medically trained, instead they go to chiropractors schools that are setup by more chiropractors, instead of real doctors as more of a certification mill.

It's almost the same idea as those people who thought all the body's problems were due to various bumps in the skull, and they would fix problems by literally hammering them into place.

Any "chiropractor" that actually do something positive could probably be called well trained physical therapists, or even spine specialized doctors, instead of a chiropractor.

I would say to avoid them and see a doctor of scientific medicine specialized in spine issues. Your pain may just be literally getting old, or could be caused by things not in any way related to what chiropracty purports to treat.
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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2012, 02:36:03 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on May 02, 2012, 06:32:34 PM

I have two severely bulging discs at C6 and C7 with nerve impingement causing the same issues you're experiencing.  Physical therapy didn't work the first time around, I've gone through two rounds of epidural injections into the vertebrae with minimal results, I'm currently returning to PT with the hope that the injected anti-inflammatories may make PT more effective, but if none of this works then I have a surgical consultation in three weeks to discuss cleaning out the damaged discs and fusing my vertebrae.

Pete - the more I read about spinal fusion the more it really sounds like a last resort option. Seems that it can be temporary as well, as immobilizing vertebrae puts additional stress on adjacent ones which can cause the pain / problem to return. Just saw this on Sunday Morning and had to pass it along:  A new hope for back pain sufferers?

Short version: Fibrin injections. The use of biologics for treatments of this type of issue are still in clinical trials and we're talking 5 years to it to become "widely available"... but this is basically a five minute non-invasive procedure at about 5% of the cost of fusion.  thumbsup

'Injected into the damaged disc, the compound acts like a sealant, filling cracks and crevices, and eventually allowing the disc to re-grow. "It allows our degenerated disc to turn into a young, healthy, normal disc," said Dr. Pauza.'
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« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2012, 04:31:25 PM »

Quote from: Turtle on May 06, 2012, 11:38:30 AM

http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html

One very important thing to realize is that medicine is just over the line of being pseudoscience, aka woo, aka junk that doesn't work that they try to sell you to cure everything. It was based around the cure all idea that everything is fixed by giving people drugs or performing surgery. Their methods are literally magic made to sound science-y. A recent study actually found a lot of the "corrections" they do are actually causing more harm, as evidenced by malpractice suits and declining health in the overall population. Also remember that doctors go to doctor schools that are setup by more doctors, instead of  as more of a certification mill.

slywink

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It's almost the same idea as those people who thought all the body's problems were due to various bumps in the skull, and they would fix problems by literally hammering them into place.

No, no it really isn't. Of course, I'm sure you know more about this than the "real doctors" I know who refer patients to certain 'chiropractors' to get them fixed. Because really I'm sure those "real doctors" send their patients to the "fake doctors" because they just want to get rid of them.

Quote
Any "chiropractor" that actually do something positive could probably be called well trained physical therapists, or even spine specialized doctors, instead of a chiropractor.

Actually, they exist. And they are called "chiropractors".

Quote
I would say to avoid them and see a doctor of scientific medicine specialized in spine issues. Your pain may just be literally getting old, or could be caused by things not in any way related to what chiropracty purports to treat.

Or, it could be caused by something your "real doctor" isn't well equipped to treat. As I stated above, I went and saw the top orthopedic back guy in Atlanta... and he told me I was getting old when I was 30 and playing professional tennis. I saw a chiropractor and he fixed me.

Now granted there are things even the best chiropractors can't treat (duh). Any decent chiropractor worth his/her salt will refer you to a MD when they can't help you. That's happened to me.

The short of it is, chiropractors are a mixed bag. They are not all awesome, and they are not all snake oil salesmen/witch doctors. If you take the time to look around, you'll see there are chiropractors who have taken hold working with NFL/NHL athletes, as well as professional athletes from a variety of other sports. The guy I see helped treat Sydney Crosby for his concussion. These guys are legit, with an amazing understanding of neuroscience and specifically the way the pieces of the body interact.
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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2012, 03:39:50 PM »

Turtle, that link gives a bunch of anecdotal examples meant to dissuade people from going to a chiropractor. I've yet to see Dr. Demarais pull out a dead chicken and shake it over me to release my spirits, nor have I had my head hammered.

In fact, the "MD"s you're advocating came from a long line of "Balancing humors", leech-treatments, etc. The fact is that when going to see a medical professional about ANY treatment, referrals, testimonials and credentials are all important. I don't walk down the street and just hop at the chance to get adjusted by "Joe's Roadside Chiropractic and Churro Emporium".

Furthermore, any doctors I've seen for my weight problem have indicated the same old AMA "move more, eat less - more carbs, less fat" and would freak at my current regime which has me getting stronger, leaner and healthier. I'm not sure that "doctors" currently practicing aren't under the same description that you just condemned (doctors indoctrinating doctors with their interest, rather than their patients, in mind).

Wellbeing is a booming INDUSTRY. It isn't for the benefit of the patients.
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« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2012, 07:13:26 AM »

I want to say, and I really do mean this, is that I care for you guys. I'm not trying to debunk this stuff because I want to feel smarter than you, or that I'm part of some kind of establishment.

I honestly, really, really do care for you Crux, and Purge.

I care for you two such that I don't want to see either of you get hurt or waste money on treatment that provides little more than placebo, when you could still be searching for ones that will work, or learning to accept things that are currently untreatable.

So please understand that as I argue with you here and now, I really do want you to find something that truly works for you. But, I also care for humanity overall, and I consider this kind of woo the kind of thing that drags us back into the dark ages, and away from advances towards real treatment for humanity's ailments.

Before you read my post, just go ahead and please do this for me. Take all the skepticism you feel for scientific medicine and just for a moment, think of chiropractic in that way. Take the arguments you label against "modern medicine" and turn it against this thing that you hold dear, as I have already done against the scientific method.

Likewise, think about things like myths, or other forms of silly medicine and snake oil that you deem to be silly, and just turn your minds eye and try to see it with real reason and not simple belief.

Good? Okay, let's begin:

Another link for you below. Currently reading through it in more depth so I can address your arguments better. But to be honest, the burden of proving its effectiveness is on you, not for me to prove its ineffectiveness.

http://www.chirobase.org/

As for What's The Harm .net? Those weren't anecdotes, they are confirmed and researched cases of real harm coming to people. You're also the one providing anecdotes about you being

Quote
I've yet to see Dr. Demarais pull out a dead chicken and shake it over me to release my spirits, nor have I had my head hammered.

One does not need to break out the shamanic practices to be a practitioner of woo.

The real difference between scientific medicine and the people you think still just peddle leeches is that scientific medicine did the research and testing, and found out what really worked, and what didn't. They also did so via methodology and with rigor that would confirm their results, and they stuck to the results even if it went against what they thought was true.

Also, any deficiencies in modern scientific medicine does not mean that chiropractic is any more effective. That's a huge logical fallacy right there when dealing with medicine.

Quote
Wellbeing is a booming INDUSTRY. It isn't for the benefit of the patients.

Not sure what you're trying to say with this. Usually, when you hear terms like wellbeing, wellness, etc... those are blanket terms woo practitioners use to avoid actually making legal claims that they make people physically better. But, you also seem to acknowledge that as well. Most chiropractic places I see often use these terms.

Quote
The guy I see helped treat Sydney Crosby for his concussion.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/chiropractic-neurology/

That link provides the rebuttal against your example of Simon Crosby's supposed treatment. The reality is it's a sham. It actually a textbook case of chiropracty being used as a magical cure all. His story actually popped up on a variety of skeptic and science blogs and podcasts that I listen to. I encourage you to look into the reality of that situation.

Here's a good example that points to the silliness of sports medicine: Do you believe that those plastic bands with laser etched holograms (or magnets) work? Probably not, or maybe you do. The reality is they don't work. But, sports pros wear them all the time, paying hundreds to thousands for what amounts to a cheap plastic band and a few kitchen magnets, or a 1 cent laser etched hologram. Seems pretty silly right?
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« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2012, 01:59:07 PM »

Turtle,

I feel the same way - any rebuttal I make is meant at an attempt to reach an understanding.

First: science and scientific method are not interchangeable. Good science sets out to prove its hypothesis. Then it has completed only 25% of its work - the balance is in trying to prove itself WRONG. Just because something is scientific, does not mean it has followed through with the process.

This doesn't happen often enough in the medical world right now - it's like a boy hopping across slippery stones on a foggy shoreline.Every time he hops, he may slip a little, but doesn't fall. Because he does not fall completely, the hop is considered a success, even though the path he takes is neither optimal nor is it one that most people would choose to follow.

When it comes to chiropractic medicine, I view it in the same light as physiotherapy, or any medical practice - no one has the answer sheets to KNOW what is correct - our level of understanding is based on some very smart people who grope in the dark - or, hop from stone to stone. This is especially true of the dietary advice. Our food is making us sick. It is creating an obesity epidemic in the efforts to avoid a phantom "heart" epidemic. Obesity impacts our posture - our very being is stressed in every which way, nevermind the lack of nourishment and the questionable content that corn brings into our diets.

I understand your concern, Turtle. I really do. But the exercises and adjustments I've gone through have been eye-opening to what works - perhaps I'm hopping on stones - but I can tell you, I've slipped a whole lot less.
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« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2012, 03:12:42 PM »

Turtle, I'm not skeptical of modern medicine. I think it overall does a pretty good job of what it is supposed to do - more so in some areas than others. My point is just this: you are painting with an exceedingly broad brush. I work with a guy who the doctors at the top sports medicine clinic in one of the biggest cities in the country refer people to. He works on professional athletes from a variety of sports in conjunction with their team doctors. He is not a witch doctor, a snake oil salesman, or a quack. He has fixed every single person I have ever referred to him, bar none. He causes scientifically measurable improvement in athletes.

There are good chiropractors, and bad chiropractors. You seem to only know about the bad ones, and you're casting your opinion of the bad ones onto every single one and that's just wrong.
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« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2012, 03:21:23 PM »

Also I love how your link referring to Crosby's treatment has absolutely no scientific evidence in it about anything at all. There's no test results, not even commentary on whether or not Crosby's condition improved. Nothing. Nada. Zip. That's amusing.

There's also little to no real background done - he quotes something about 'straight' chiropractic and how it believes 'nearly all diseases originate in the spine'... and then proceeds to talk about chiropractic neurology - when the chiropractic neurologist I see almost never touches my spine in any way. He doesn't treat me for 'subluxations' or the like.

But again, that's the difference between good and bad. I will whole-heartedly agree that there are plenty of chiropractors I would avoid like the plague. I see someone who helps me when I need it (which is exceedingly rare these days), and who has helped everyone I've ever sent to him.
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« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2012, 03:33:53 PM »

Also somehow your guy missed this quote from the article:

Quote
The Penguins’ medical team, who have been overseeing Crosby’s recovery, also saw an improvement: they ran computerized tests called IMPACT to compare his current neurocognitive abilities with what they were before the concussion. The results: not quite “super-normal,” but “the best we’ve seen” since Crosby got hurt, as Collins said at the press conference.

And then..

Quote
Even medical professionals such as neurologist Kevin Gordon acknowledge that Crosby’s recent progress has been promising. “You’re dealing with a remarkable case report that says this holistic approach with multiple interventions has made somebody with a severe concussion improve on a time course which would seem remarkable compared to how they were recovering before,” he says.
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« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2012, 09:01:50 AM »

Still doing reading to address your arguments, bear with me, work has gotten a bit busy. But I found some more information specifically on Carrack's and his ideas of chiropractic neurology. These observations are meant to show you that his claims of it are based on faulty logic.

Example: Carrack wrote a paper looking at the blind spot in your eyes. He actually made the claim that by measuring that blind spot you could assess brain function. Then, by doing chiropractic neurology (spinal) manipulations to improve the blind spot.

This is just silly.

It can be difficult to see why this is silly though, but basically the blind spot is just a biological fact for human physiology, it's just part of our anatomy.

The blind spot isnt an artifact of brain processing, it's just where the bundle of nerves connects from the retina to the brain. We don't see a blank spot because the brain actually has to do processing to fill it in based on the rest of the scene that we see. This is done by our optical processing centers of the brain, not through anything in the spine. This first part of the claim is silly because no amount of altering the brain can change the blind spot since it is literally blind in that spot, there are no light receptors, no more information to process by the brain, thus no possible way to improve the brain's processing of that information.

His second claim around this is that doing manipulations to the spine can alter and improve brain function to such a specific degree that it affects the image processing portion of the brain to improve how it processes incoming visual data from the eyes. This isn't possible.

It was a terrible study that used bad protocols to try to back up his point, and he's using those some bad science to justify all his other chiropractic neurology treatments.

I'm still finding and compiling specific things regarding Simon Crosby, and chiropractic in general to be a better argument, but for now presenting this is important, at least for this specific chiropractor who I believe is a fraud.
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« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2012, 10:46:29 AM »

Here's the problem Turtle. You're sure he's a fraud, and you're running around looking for 'facts' to prove it. It's supposed to be the other way around. You're supposed to look at the facts, and then determine from those whether or not he's a fraud or just someone doing ground-breaking work.

PS, you still didn't respond to all of the "real doctors" who acknowledged that whatever Carrick did hastened Crosby's recovery. You've jumped right past them in your witch hunt.
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« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2012, 06:26:30 AM »

Hey Pete Rock/Monkey finger I think Im going through something similar. Pain in the left shoulder sometimes, aching arm (with weakness), sometimes aching hand and middle/Index finger numbness. Sometimes really hard to go to sleep. Anyway, talked to an on-line doctor and he said yea, its probably a pinched or compressed nerve in the shoulder or neck. Going to see a regular doctor soon. Im just kinda wondering what you mean by the "Buzzing"? I think I might know but am not sure. Just curious. Thanks. Started taking Alleve and aspirin every day as well as some exercise (not in great shape) and it has gotten better then it was. Hopefully the doctor can help me some.

Dave
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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2012, 12:43:16 PM »

When I said "buzzing" I'm sure it's the same as the numbness you mention. It felt to me like when one of your extremities goes to sleep and it is waking back up, all of the tingling / numbness / buzzing of the nerves you go through before it finally calms down. And your 'something similar' sounds like exactly the same thing to me, just hopefully a milder version that you should get some help for sooner rather than later. Wager it's the same C6/C7 neck nerve that Pete & I have been discussing... and physical therapy is what seems to be working for me.
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« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2012, 01:55:23 PM »

Quote from: Crux on May 11, 2012, 10:46:29 AM

Here's the problem Turtle. You're sure he's a fraud, and you're running around looking for 'facts' to prove it. It's supposed to be the other way around. You're supposed to look at the facts, and then determine from those whether or not he's a fraud or just someone doing ground-breaking work.

PS, you still didn't respond to all of the "real doctors" who acknowledged that whatever Carrick did hastened Crosby's recovery. You've jumped right past them in your witch hunt.

I'm not sure he's a fraud, I just presented the evidence that he is. You're the one jumping to the conclusion that it's a witch hunt. You're also the one who is refusing to acknowledge this evidence placed in front of you. An anecdote of a few doctors saying Crosby seems better, doesn't mean that Carrack successfully treated Crosby. Remember, Correlation does not equal causation. Or in other words, Just because event B happens after A, it does not mean that A caused B.

Give me the exact names of the scientific doctors that supposedly support his claim. Who has actually said that Carrack's work specifically improved him, or did they just examine Crosby after Carrack had alone time with him and presented him to the others?

Give me a list of all the techniques Carrack uses so I can find the exact information so I can find the evidence.

Also, there is no good evidence for any real effectiveness of chiropractic neurology in the first place. No properly blinded study of his methods have produced a result that.

What I could find was that actually Crosby had withdrawn from any other treatment at the behest of people under Crosby's sway. No other doctor has been able to give him much treatment, and it didn't sound like any of them got. Although that information is probably out of date.

He's also probably getting proven effective treatments from Crosby as well, but with just the chiropractic neurology mixed in. It's a common practice to do so, then claim the chiropractic treatments are the ones that worked. I couldn't find actual lists of what was being done to Crosby, and likely you. Maybe you can enlighten us?

Lastly, people really do just "Get better" over time with rest and relaxation. It's the body's natural repair mechanisms. If we died from every hard hit to the head, we wouldn't have survived as a species.

It's so easy to jump to the conspiracy and witch hunt defense when your under question. Don't go down that road, especially when, again, I am not trying to pull a witch hunt, but rather, I have found evidence that indicates that Carrack is not the kind of doctor he says he is. This is coming from someone who cares that you, and others, get real working care.

That paper Carrack posted can be found online, you can read it yourself and find the flaws. It may seem like I'm attacking his character, but you have to admit his methodology is unsound.

Again, I'll do more research as time permits. This is not a subject for emotions, real physical life and health are on the line on these matters.
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« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2012, 05:16:10 PM »

Thanks Monkey Finger, yea Im seeing a doctor today actually. My problem started a couple months ago with an aching and sore left arm (mostly below the elbow) that just didnt go away, then it went to my back left shoulder blade (but my arm felt better) then it moved to my left hand and thats when the numbness/tingling in the fingers happened. It kinda jumps around and finding a sleeping position that doesnt hurt (or start aching) is a pain. I dont really have a regular doctor and starting a new one I had to wait about 3 weeks, and then the doctors office screwed up so I had to wait another two, Insurance can be a pain in the ass. Im thinking now I should have gone to the urgent care for just temporary relief. Anyway, It doesnt exactly feel like when an extremety goes to sleep and then wakes up but it is simialar (maybe because normally that sensation goes away quickly). And actually, I thought the buzzing you were talking about might have been in the ear. Shortly before the arm problem I started hearing a constant high pitch sound (on and off) in my right ear (always had some hearing problems with that ear) so I think I have Tinitis, probably unrelated to the pinched nerve. Ill talk to the doctor about this also. I have good days and bad days and in general it seems to be a little better then say, a month ago, so I guess thats something..

Dave
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« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2012, 05:17:58 PM »

Quote from: Davidbld on May 14, 2012, 06:26:30 AM

Hey Pete Rock/Monkey finger I think Im going through something similar. Pain in the left shoulder sometimes, aching arm (with weakness), sometimes aching hand and middle/Index finger numbness. Sometimes really hard to go to sleep. Anyway, talked to an on-line doctor and he said yea, its probably a pinched or compressed nerve in the shoulder or neck. Going to see a regular doctor soon. Im just kinda wondering what you mean by the "Buzzing"? I think I might know but am not sure. Just curious. Thanks. Started taking Alleve and aspirin every day as well as some exercise (not in great shape) and it has gotten better then it was. Hopefully the doctor can help me some.

Dave

To elaborate on what Monkey has already said, I equate the "buzzing" to hitting your funny bone and having that "buzzing" feeling run up and down your arm.  But in my case it doesn't go completely away.  It also weakens my grip strength and tricep strength.

I'd have to agree with Monkey that it sounds like you have the C6/C7 problem just as we do, fortunately it sounds like your symptoms are a little less severe.

Quote from: MonkeyFinger on May 14, 2012, 12:43:16 PM

When I said "buzzing" I'm sure it's the same as the numbness you mention. It felt to me like when one of your extremities goes to sleep and it is waking back up, all of the tingling / numbness / buzzing of the nerves you go through before it finally calms down. And your 'something similar' sounds like exactly the same thing to me, just hopefully a milder version that you should get some help for sooner rather than later. Wager it's the same C6/C7 neck nerve that Pete & I have been discussing... and physical therapy is what seems to be working for me.
 

I'm glad to hear that therapy is working for you.  I have a local friend who went through the same issue and therapy completely solved her problem.  Unfortunately for me the epidurals haven't worked and neither has therapy.

Simple things aggravate my symptoms.  Jogging before Friday night's softball game made my whole arm go numb, I haven't been able to sleep for days due to the "buzzing", tingling, numbness, etc, and after today's PT visit the consensus seems to be that to avoid surgery I will have to cope with ongoing symptoms and merely try to avoid any motions, exercises, or activities that aggravate my condition.  The discs are so badly damaged that PT and epidural injections probably won't work.  But I've already given up competitive pool (a sport I absolutely love and have gotten quite good at), I've revamped all of my lifting sessions, and am unwilling to give up sports or competition.  I could see if I were 60 and advised to stop playing softball, basketball, volleyball, etc. I'm 35, so giving up competitive sports is not an option for me.

I have a visit with my spine doctor and a neurosurgeon next Wednesday to discuss the next option(s) in my treatment.  As the word "surgery" is discussed more and more, and the symptoms continue to persist despite all of my treatments and efforts, if limited neck mobility following spinal fusion is the only negative while my symptoms will be eliminated and my ability to compete restored, then I have a very difficult decision coming up.  My wife feels that surgery would be ideal, especially with the potential for permanent nerve damage from my ongoing impingement.  She's worried that 10 years from now, if my symptoms persist, what will my quality of life be like and what happens once the nerve is permanently damaged?  

I should at least know a little more after the 23rd.  For now I continue to compete, lift, train, etc, and merely cope with the symptoms (which are often fairly severe following competition).  But, I love it too much to give up, so I deal with the sleepless nights, buzzing, tingling, numbness, and the slight dip in my performance.  My therapist says that I have to decide if I love high-level softball competition, sports, weight training, etc so much to deal with the repercussions, otherwise I've been advised to give most of it up.  

Better buy stock in Aleve, folks, because I'm not going anywhere.   ninja2
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« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2012, 07:49:09 PM »

Quote from: PeteRock on May 14, 2012, 05:17:58 PM

To elaborate on what Monkey has already said, I equate the "buzzing" to hitting your funny bone and having that "buzzing" feeling run up and down your arm.

That's a better example.
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« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2012, 03:01:06 AM »

It's really hard for me to see how people can be so tied to sports and competition in general when it is literally destroying there bodies. I have a friend at work who has had his shoulder dislocate. He finally got around to doing surgery, then went back to football and dislocated it again. He's finally stopped playing football, but he still climbs and rides his mountain bike hard. It seems there there is a point where he is willing to nuke his whole shoulder than stop competing in things. I understand that it is part of things that you love to do but I guess I feel there has to be a line so that you don't end up in a wheel chair or the total loss of use of one of your limbs.
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