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Author Topic: Windows 7 Beta  (Read 20525 times)
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Brendan
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« Reply #320 on: June 25, 2009, 06:56:18 PM »

Quote from: Caine on June 25, 2009, 06:49:29 PM

any reason you can't buy a physical copy of x64 and upgrade to it from x86?  'the key...' sounds like 'only' the way it's written on the link.  i would like to avoid the whole launch day download wait if at all possible.

You can't do an in-place cross-architecture upgrade from x86 to x64, unfortunately.  You'll need to do a clean install where you migrate your data using the Win 7 version of USMT.
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« Reply #321 on: June 25, 2009, 08:07:22 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on June 25, 2009, 06:56:18 PM

Quote from: Caine on June 25, 2009, 06:49:29 PM

any reason you can't buy a physical copy of x64 and upgrade to it from x86?  'the key...' sounds like 'only' the way it's written on the link.  i would like to avoid the whole launch day download wait if at all possible.

You can't do an in-place cross-architecture upgrade from x86 to x64, unfortunately.  You'll need to do a clean install where you migrate your data using the Win 7 version of USMT.

no, no.  i get that you can't cross the architecture streams.  logically, it breaks more than it could fix.

what i wonder is why he wrote 'the key to this ...' regarding the x86 -> x64 upgrade rather than just saying 'yes'.  the way he describes it makes it seem like you are somehow locked to a platform if you buy the upgrade anywhere else.  like amazon checking version key platform for eligibility requirements.

in any case, i'll probably be dual booting the main pc at home just so i have a working os to fall back on should i hit an unknown, at least for the initial run.
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« Reply #322 on: June 25, 2009, 11:21:30 PM »

Pre-order and get W7 for 50% off

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/buy/offers/pre-order.aspx

EDIT: I just ordered from Amazon and get free release day shipping too. (I am a Prime member, that might be why).
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 05:22:24 AM by leo8877 » Logged
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« Reply #323 on: June 26, 2009, 05:03:20 AM »

I'm planning on using the 64 bit version of Win7.  It looks like there's both versions on the disc.  I've read in one or two places that it looks to see what OS you're using now, x86 or x64, and installs that version of 7.  What if I want to, say, move from a 32 bit Vista install to a 64 bit 7 install, or if I'm doing the clean install "upgrade" trick? Does it ask you during setup what you want to install?
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« Reply #324 on: June 26, 2009, 06:57:12 AM »

you could just by pass vista and it'll ask you for the disc for verification. it be better that way anyways.
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« Reply #325 on: June 26, 2009, 12:37:41 PM »

Quote from: leo8877 on June 25, 2009, 11:21:30 PM

EDIT: I just ordered from Amazon and get free release day shipping too. (I am a Prime member, that might be why).

Newegg's offering free shipping as well.

I don't see any mention of 32-bit or 64-bit on these retail sites.  Am I to assume that both versions come in every box?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 12:43:50 PM by wonderpug » Logged
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« Reply #326 on: June 26, 2009, 12:54:58 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 26, 2009, 12:37:41 PM


I don't see any mention of 32-bit or 64-bit on these retail sites.  Am I to assume that both versions come in every box?

It looks like that's the case, and my post above is asking how you choose which one you want to install if, for example, you're doing a clean install or want to change architectures from your current OS.
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« Reply #327 on: June 26, 2009, 02:17:14 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 26, 2009, 12:37:41 PM

I don't see any mention of 32-bit or 64-bit on these retail sites.  Am I to assume that both versions come in every box?

I thought Microsoft is just going 64-bit on all W7 versions now or something. Odds are I could be wrong though.

And the 'both versions in the box' didn't work for Vista. The key was for all versions, but normally the 32-bit version was the one that was included (I got Ultimate). It was sad - I had to either pay Microsoft for them to send me a 64-bit disc of Vista, or I had to pirate the bloody thing to use the key I had.
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« Reply #328 on: June 26, 2009, 02:19:07 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on June 26, 2009, 02:17:14 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on June 26, 2009, 12:37:41 PM

I don't see any mention of 32-bit or 64-bit on these retail sites.  Am I to assume that both versions come in every box?

I thought Microsoft is just going 64-bit on all W7 versions now or something. Odds are I could be wrong though.

There were (are) 32-bit versions for download for the free RC version.
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« Reply #329 on: June 26, 2009, 03:08:16 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on June 26, 2009, 02:17:14 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on June 26, 2009, 12:37:41 PM

I don't see any mention of 32-bit or 64-bit on these retail sites.  Am I to assume that both versions come in every box?

I thought Microsoft is just going 64-bit on all W7 versions now or something. Odds are I could be wrong though.

And the 'both versions in the box' didn't work for Vista. The key was for all versions, but normally the 32-bit version was the one that was included (I got Ultimate). It was sad - I had to either pay Microsoft for them to send me a 64-bit disc of Vista, or I had to pirate the bloody thing to use the key I had.

This could suck.  I'm hoping that they remember to put the 64-bit versions on disc.  Maybe it'd be better to just order the download version from MS directly rather than the boxed version.
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« Reply #330 on: June 26, 2009, 03:10:16 PM »

I think MS have said that W7 will be the last Windows that supports 32-bit.
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« Reply #331 on: June 26, 2009, 04:04:32 PM »

Quote from: Chaz on June 26, 2009, 03:08:16 PM

Quote from: Destructor on June 26, 2009, 02:17:14 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on June 26, 2009, 12:37:41 PM

I don't see any mention of 32-bit or 64-bit on these retail sites.  Am I to assume that both versions come in every box?

I thought Microsoft is just going 64-bit on all W7 versions now or something. Odds are I could be wrong though.

And the 'both versions in the box' didn't work for Vista. The key was for all versions, but normally the 32-bit version was the one that was included (I got Ultimate). It was sad - I had to either pay Microsoft for them to send me a 64-bit disc of Vista, or I had to pirate the bloody thing to use the key I had.

This could suck.  I'm hoping that they remember to put the 64-bit versions on disc.  Maybe it'd be better to just order the download version from MS directly rather than the boxed version.

probably a safe bet considering that online is where you can buy it, but you have to wait for shipping anyways.  at least with an iso you can dl it as fast as your connection will be (assuming the tubes don't get so plugged with W7 that you end up at dial up speeds)

funny that i still have an attachment to the physical box and disc when i've already been using downloaded iso's from technet. 
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« Reply #332 on: June 26, 2009, 05:40:46 PM »

After upgrading to Win 7 I can't synchronize my iPod with iTunes, it gives me a message saying iTunes can't find the iPod which is strange because when I first connect it the computer reads it. Any ideas?
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« Reply #333 on: June 26, 2009, 07:12:43 PM »

So, I have to ask - as somebody who always upgrades their PC in pieces (I haven't bought a complete system short of laptops/netbooks in I don't know how long now), and thus won't be getting W7 for 'free' that way, I have to ask:

Is it worth going from Vista 64 to W7 64? Are there any drastic enhancements to how games play? Or how Windows itself runs? In short - is it worth spending the $100 for the upgrade edition (I use the advanced networking features, so the $50 upgrade won't work for me) at the current (reasonable) prices?
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« Reply #334 on: June 26, 2009, 07:28:52 PM »

Is there any reason to get the Profession version for normal home networking (ie: media streaming, file sharing)
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« Reply #335 on: June 26, 2009, 08:00:03 PM »

Quote from: Jag on June 26, 2009, 07:28:52 PM

Is there any reason to get the Profession version for normal home networking (ie: media streaming, file sharing)

For a home network, no.
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« Reply #336 on: June 26, 2009, 09:10:13 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on June 26, 2009, 07:12:43 PM

Is it worth going from Vista 64 to W7 64? Are there any drastic enhancements to how games play? Or how Windows itself runs? In short - is it worth spending the $100 for the upgrade edition (I use the advanced networking features, so the $50 upgrade won't work for me) at the current (reasonable) prices?

Yes, I'd say it's definitely worth it. It's a much more pleasurable experience than Vista ever was, and it's both faster and better looking. It also has a new version of Direct3D (not sure if it's going to get included with Vista). Windows 7 is getting massive praise, even from Mac fanatics.
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« Reply #337 on: June 26, 2009, 09:36:17 PM »

Quote from: Laner on June 26, 2009, 08:00:03 PM

Quote from: Jag on June 26, 2009, 07:28:52 PM

Is there any reason to get the Profession version for normal home networking (ie: media streaming, file sharing)
For a home network, no.

Then what does the Professional version include that the Home version doesn't? I know that Pro in XP and Vista had additional networking features (most of which were pretty much needed if you intended to share anything). What about W7 then?

EDIT: A feature list is over here to compare against. Basically I'd lose out on Automatic Backup (replaced by freeware easily), XP Mode (doesn't support graphic cards, so it's next to useless), and something about 'joining company networks easier'. Yay?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 09:51:13 PM by Destructor » Logged

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« Reply #338 on: June 26, 2009, 10:45:30 PM »

Pretty much; the jump from Home Premium to Professional caters to some pretty specific requirements.  Remote Desktop will be the reason I go for Pro as opposed to Home, but I haven't decided for sure yet.
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« Reply #339 on: June 26, 2009, 11:04:33 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on June 26, 2009, 09:36:17 PM

something about 'joining company networks easier'.

Domain joining.  If you don't have a corporate AD-based network to join, don't worry about it.
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« Reply #340 on: June 27, 2009, 07:35:29 AM »

I think the Windows 7 praise is a load of bullshit... At least coming from someone who isn't a hardcore OS tech person. From what I've experienced, 7 is not any sort of leap over Vista. The taskbar is "cool" I suppose, the thumbnail preview deal is neat. Otherwise I've been surfing the net, uploading pics, gaming, writing OO docs, etc., and I haven't experienced anything that makes me believe I needed to upgrade from Vista. Now, I've read that security is tigher in 7 but it's not like I was getting viruses before.

So what exactly are some of you seeing that I'm not? Or is it just the people who skipped Vista and are jumping from XP to 7 that are praising it so much?

Oh, plus iTunes won't sync with my iPod anymore so that has me feeling bitter.

*after edit*

That's ironic, right after finishing this post Avast shot out this warning that I was receiving a virus. That never happened to me in Vista slywink
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 07:40:44 AM by Ridah » Logged

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« Reply #341 on: June 27, 2009, 07:47:19 AM »

Windows 7 is faster, smaller, uses less memory, and is component-based (which means you can uninstall pretty much anything in it that you don't like, up to and including IE). It's also less annoying (pop-ups in the corner have been dealt with and UAC is simpler) and works much better with devices you may plug into it (like cell phones, external HDs, printers, etc).
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« Reply #342 on: June 27, 2009, 10:48:04 AM »

Quote from: Huw the Poo on June 26, 2009, 03:10:16 PM

I think MS have said that W7 will be the last Windows that supports 32-bit.

I hope this is true. I think it's bullshit game developers aren't making their games 64 bit advantage. wtf is the point of a quad core if i can't use it? Maybe 64 bit takes more to develop I don't know, but I hope this forces the industry to get with the times already and use our hardware.
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« Reply #343 on: June 27, 2009, 11:12:35 AM »

Quote from: jersoc on June 27, 2009, 10:48:04 AM

Quote from: Huw the Poo on June 26, 2009, 03:10:16 PM

I think MS have said that W7 will be the last Windows that supports 32-bit.

I hope this is true. I think it's bullshit game developers aren't making their games 64 bit advantage. wtf is the point of a quad core if i can't use it? Maybe 64 bit takes more to develop I don't know, but I hope this forces the industry to get with the times already and use our hardware.

Heh, 64-bit isn't all that easy to wrap one's head around. Your post is proof of this, as you don't seem to understand what the point of 64-bit is or what it is able to offer you. smile
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« Reply #344 on: June 27, 2009, 12:06:57 PM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 27, 2009, 07:47:19 AM

Windows 7 is faster, smaller, uses less memory, and is component-based (which means you can uninstall pretty much anything in it that you don't like, up to and including IE). It's also less annoying (pop-ups in the corner have been dealt with and UAC is simpler) and works much better with devices you may plug into it (like cell phones, external HDs, printers, etc).

What he said.  I'm running W7 on my netbook and I swear it's faster than XP.  I'm sure as heck I couldn't get that kind of performance out of Vista.  I don't know whether or not it's worth upgrading from Vista (I would probably do it for the performance boost) but it's definitely worth upgrading from XP.
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« Reply #345 on: June 27, 2009, 01:03:05 PM »

If I were to buy the upgrade would it only work on one computer?  I have a couple of laptops-would I need to buy two versions?
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« Reply #346 on: June 27, 2009, 01:36:28 PM »

Quote from: jersoc on June 27, 2009, 10:48:04 AM

Quote from: Huw the Poo on June 26, 2009, 03:10:16 PM

I think MS have said that W7 will be the last Windows that supports 32-bit.

I hope this is true. I think it's bullshit game developers aren't making their games 64 bit advantage. wtf is the point of a quad core if i can't use it? Maybe 64 bit takes more to develop I don't know, but I hope this forces the industry to get with the times already and use our hardware.
Erm, the number of cores and the number of bits aren't related. 

Generally speaking, the only benefit you're going to get from 64-bits is the ability to address more than 4GB of RAM.  Whether or not your quad-core CPU is fully utilized is a different issue entirely.
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« Reply #347 on: June 27, 2009, 02:12:36 PM »

Quote from: Laner on June 27, 2009, 01:36:28 PM

Erm, the number of cores and the number of bits aren't related. 

Generally speaking, the only benefit you're going to get from 64-bits is the ability to address more than 4GB of RAM.  Whether or not your quad-core CPU is fully utilized is a different issue entirely.

A 64-bit application would also suffer a performance hit and would use more RAM in the first place, which makes 64-bit little suited to games for the time being. When 32-bit versions of Windows are no longer available it might be a good idea for game developers to go 64-bit. Until then though, it's a waste of time.
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« Reply #348 on: June 27, 2009, 05:01:35 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on June 27, 2009, 12:06:57 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 27, 2009, 07:47:19 AM

Windows 7 is faster, smaller, uses less memory, and is component-based (which means you can uninstall pretty much anything in it that you don't like, up to and including IE). It's also less annoying (pop-ups in the corner have been dealt with and UAC is simpler) and works much better with devices you may plug into it (like cell phones, external HDs, printers, etc).

What he said.  I'm running W7 on my netbook and I swear it's faster than XP.  I'm sure as heck I couldn't get that kind of performance out of Vista.  I don't know whether or not it's worth upgrading from Vista (I would probably do it for the performance boost) but it's definitely worth upgrading from XP.

Windows 7 is the first version of Windows that doesn't have me banging my head into the desk saying 'WHY DID YOU DESIGN THE UI THIS WAY, YOU ASSHOLES?'  Under the hood, I've never had any issues with Vista or XP.  It's just the UI that's so damn bad.  Windows 7 has some UI elements that are actually BETTER than OSX.  It's fantastic.

gellar
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« Reply #349 on: June 27, 2009, 06:26:17 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on June 27, 2009, 01:03:05 PM

If I were to buy the upgrade would it only work on one computer?  I have a couple of laptops-would I need to buy two versions?

Most definitely 2 copies. You only get one CD key per purchase, and they can be used only once.
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« Reply #350 on: June 27, 2009, 08:45:08 PM »

Quote from: gellar on June 27, 2009, 05:01:35 PM

Quote from: Canuck on June 27, 2009, 12:06:57 PM

Quote from: TiLT on June 27, 2009, 07:47:19 AM

Windows 7 is faster, smaller, uses less memory, and is component-based (which means you can uninstall pretty much anything in it that you don't like, up to and including IE). It's also less annoying (pop-ups in the corner have been dealt with and UAC is simpler) and works much better with devices you may plug into it (like cell phones, external HDs, printers, etc).

What he said.  I'm running W7 on my netbook and I swear it's faster than XP.  I'm sure as heck I couldn't get that kind of performance out of Vista.  I don't know whether or not it's worth upgrading from Vista (I would probably do it for the performance boost) but it's definitely worth upgrading from XP.

Windows 7 is the first version of Windows that doesn't have me banging my head into the desk saying 'WHY DID YOU DESIGN THE UI THIS WAY, YOU ASSHOLES?'  Under the hood, I've never had any issues with Vista or XP.  It's just the UI that's so damn bad.  Windows 7 has some UI elements that are actually BETTER than OSX.  It's fantastic.

gellar

I haven't been this psyched for an OS release since Windows 95 replaced Win 3.1

I'm pretty damn happy that I got it for $49, and I think MS should be recognized for this outstanding offer.  thumbsup
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« Reply #351 on: June 27, 2009, 09:01:35 PM »

So if I decided to get the Home Premium for $50 and do without remote desktop access to my PC, would I be able to install it over the Windows 7 RC? Or, would I need to reinstall XP and then install W7 again?
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« Reply #352 on: June 27, 2009, 11:12:47 PM »

I saw an article on CNN stating that Microsoft was thinking of releasing this on thumbdrives or allowing online purchase so that users could download it and put it onto their own thumbdrive for installation on netbooks.  Anyone know more about this?  That would certainly make things a lot easier  for me.

Also, if I have a Japanese version of Windows XP, would I be able to install an English W7 upgrade on it do you think?
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« Reply #353 on: June 28, 2009, 03:32:24 AM »

Quote from: Destructor on June 26, 2009, 02:17:14 PM

Quote from: wonderpug on June 26, 2009, 12:37:41 PM

I don't see any mention of 32-bit or 64-bit on these retail sites.  Am I to assume that both versions come in every box?

I thought Microsoft is just going 64-bit on all W7 versions now or something. Odds are I could be wrong though.

And the 'both versions in the box' didn't work for Vista. The key was for all versions, but normally the 32-bit version was the one that was included (I got Ultimate). It was sad - I had to either pay Microsoft for them to send me a 64-bit disc of Vista, or I had to pirate the bloody thing to use the key I had.

My copy of ultimate came with both.
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« Reply #354 on: June 28, 2009, 03:40:42 AM »

Quote from: TiLT on June 27, 2009, 02:12:36 PM

Quote from: Laner on June 27, 2009, 01:36:28 PM

Erm, the number of cores and the number of bits aren't related. 

Generally speaking, the only benefit you're going to get from 64-bits is the ability to address more than 4GB of RAM.  Whether or not your quad-core CPU is fully utilized is a different issue entirely.

A 64-bit application would also suffer a performance hit and would use more RAM in the first place, which makes 64-bit little suited to games for the time being. When 32-bit versions of Windows are no longer available it might be a good idea for game developers to go 64-bit. Until then though, it's a waste of time.

Quote from: wikipedia
Pros and cons
A common misconception is that 64-bit architectures are no better than 32-bit architectures unless the computer has more than 4 GB of main memory. This is not entirely true:

Some operating systems reserve portions of process address space for OS use, effectively reducing the total address space available for mapping memory for user programs. For instance, Windows XP DLLs and other user mode OS components are mapped into each process's address space, leaving only 2 to 3 GB (depending on the settings) address space available. This restriction is not present in 64-bit operating systems.
Memory-mapped files are becoming more difficult to implement in 32-bit architectures, especially due to the introduction of relatively cheap recordable DVD technology. A 4 GB file is no longer uncommon, and such large files cannot be memory mapped easily to 32-bit architectures; only a region of the file can be mapped into the address space, and to access such a file by memory mapping, those regions will have to be mapped into and out of the address space as needed. This is a problem, as memory mapping remains one of the most efficient disk-to-memory methods, when properly implemented by the OS.
Some programs such as data encryption software can benefit greatly from 64-bit registers (if the software is 64-bit compiled) and effectively execute 3 to 5 times faster on 64-bit than on 32-bit.
Some complex numerical analysis algorithms are limited in their precision by the errors that can creep in because not all floating point numbers can be accurately represented with a small number of bits. Creeping inaccuracies can lead to incorrect results, often leading to attempts to divide by zero, or to not identify two quantities as being identical for practical purposes. International Computers Limited added 128-bit support to the ICL 2900 Series in 1974 largely as a result of requests from the scientific community.
The main disadvantage of 64-bit architectures is that relative to 32-bit architectures the same data occupies more space in memory (due to swollen pointers and possibly other types and alignment padding). This increases the memory requirements of a given process and can have implications for efficient processor cache utilization. Maintaining a partial 32-bit model is one way to handle this and is in general reasonably effective. In fact, the highly performance-oriented z/OS operating system takes this approach currently, requiring program code to reside in any number of 32-bit address spaces while data objects can (optionally) reside in 64-bit regions.

Currently, most proprietary x86 software is compiled into 32-bit code, not 64-bit code, so it does not take advantage of the larger 64-bit address space or wider 64-bit registers and data paths on x86 processors, or the additional registers in 64-bit mode. However, users of most RISC platforms, and users of free or open source operating systems (where the source code is available for recompiling with a 64-bit compiler) have been able to use exclusive 64-bit computing environments for years. Not all such applications require a large address space nor manipulate 64-bit data items, so they wouldn't benefit from the larger address space or wider registers and data paths. The main advantage to 64-bit versions of such applications is the ability to access more registers in the x86-64 architecture.
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« Reply #355 on: June 28, 2009, 08:02:17 AM »

That article says pretty much the same things I said, but adds one thing: That certain applications can benefit from 64-bit even with less than 4 GB RAM. Games are not among those, and since we were talking about games, I didn't mention it. Good to have a more detailed explanation though.
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« Reply #356 on: June 28, 2009, 12:49:16 PM »

TiLT, I was posting it as an FYI to others.

Basically, while I agree that the only tangible advantage to joe user is larger memory addressing it isn't the only factor.

WOW32 works wonders, and having the 32bit/64 bit option with more RAM makes me happy. I've not had any problems with 64bit Win7, and I'd recommend it to others. your 32bit apps install into the C:\Program Files (x86)\  folder, and 64bits drop in the c:\Program Files\ folder.

Not much else changes from a user experience.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 12:51:34 PM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #357 on: June 28, 2009, 01:00:11 PM »

WOW64, Purge-a-saurus. slywink

As someone who still has to deal with developing software for Itanium, I'd like to give a shout out to AMD for forcing Intel into the AMD64 world.
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Ridah
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« Reply #358 on: June 30, 2009, 06:19:46 PM »

Can you "downgrade" back to Vista from Windows 7 RC?

I just had to deal with W7 freezing a few times and my HD not being recognized, has me worried.
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« Reply #359 on: June 30, 2009, 06:23:08 PM »

Quote from: Ridah on June 30, 2009, 06:19:46 PM

Can you "downgrade" back to Vista from Windows 7 RC?

I just had to deal with W7 freezing a few times and my HD not being recognized, has me worried.

No - you could use the USMT/EasyTransfer method to suck your data out and pull it back into a Vista install, I suppose.
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