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Author Topic: Why everyone should vote:  (Read 6293 times)
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Thin_J
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« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2004, 04:41:50 AM »

Quote from: "JSHAW"
Quote
You do all these things the same way: You look at the options, and then you decide. The process is no different, only the results.


JSHAW's options on 2004 Presidential Vote

1. BUSH - NO
2. KERRY - HELL NO
3. NADER - NO FRIGGIN' WAY

4. DARTH VADER - write in candidate - SURE! I'll turn to the dark side.
 :lol:


Sweet. I will if you will.

This is my problem this year. I hate all of the candidates. The only thing I can do is go write-in something random. But what for? Just so I can say "I voted for Darth Vader" ? Are you kidding? And.. to everyone who says "If you didn't go and vote, you can't complain" Well.. yes I can. I can complain about the complete lack of a reasonable candidate for the position of president of our country.

I need a bumper sticker that says "Don't blame me I freaking hated all of them"

I think I'm going to just drive straight home from work tomorrow night and then sit on my PC playing games in complete ignorance of the politics going on around me.
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Toe
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« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2004, 12:20:08 PM »

Quote from: "Rage"

Vote, or lose any credibility you have with me to complain about the administration/local governments.

If you cannot be bothered to make use of the one institution that allows you to influence the direction of the country, then you have no right to complain (at least to me, or in my presence) of the result.


As long as they take money out of my paycheck every week I have every right in the world to complain. Whether I vote or not, I am still paying for this government.
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draegun
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« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2004, 02:30:32 PM »

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There is also a reason that in the last 200 years Congress has seen more than 700 proposals to change the system. The problem is that it is a very complex issue to get a Constitutional amendment passed.


I'm sorry, but I think that is funny considering the attempts to have a marriage amendment or an amendment to outlaw alcohol or . . .


JSHAW has an excellent reason not to vote.  He voted locally in the past, had his and everyone else's vote disregarded and now he's disillusioned by the system.  The problem here is that as an American, JSHAW, you Charlottetans should have either filed law suits (I'm assuming that DID happen) and when that failed system didn't pan out -- do what any good natured, law abiding American should do in this type of situation:  Raise living hell!!!  Burn shit, blow up things, beat a few politicians senseless.  In a word:  REVOLT!!  

That's our right.  It's our heritage.

The system we have now is totally absurd.  We expect that one person can represent in totality a fairly large nation of individuals.   HAHAHAHAHAHA.

As it stands now, the only way to get into the lime light is to be from Yale, be worth millions, and like being a puppet.  I'd hazard to guess that a majority of us don't meet those qualifications.

We're force fed who to vote for.  Oh, let's vote for Darth Vadar.  Come on!!??  You might as well not vote.  Yeah, you're participating in the process, but you're also having as much impact in the system as if you didn't vote at all.

Back to my original point:  Having an exam to qualify a person to vote and possibly charging a fee.  If people are too lazy to study for a small exam and pay a small fee, then 1)  They most likely don't know what they're voting for or against; hence, the need for the Electoral College 2)  They most likely don't know what it means to be an American:  Rights, privileges, etc.  There's more to being an American than simply being born here.  Any fly on the wall can be born in America, but that doesn't mean I want that fly voting.  My reasoning:  I don't want a country full of sheep making policy.  If you can't think enough to know your own history and why we have the type of political system we do, the pros and cons of our political system THEN YOU DON'T DESERVE THE LUXURY OF MAKING DECISIONS THAT EFFECT OUR COUNTRY.   I'd rather have an intelligent felon voting than a stupid sheep who votes for Joe Blow simply because he looked good on TV the night before the election.
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Nameless
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« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2004, 02:52:29 PM »

One of the big objections raised here was that to get into politics far enough to run for president, you have to basically be a member of an elite club and sell your soul.....

Doesn't putting requirements on being able to vote establish exactly the same kind of elite club?
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rshetts
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« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2004, 03:14:57 PM »

To quote Rush,  "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"
  Not voting is a choice in itself.  I respect a persons right to choose.  I also agree with many, that if you choose to abstain from voting then STFU when it comes to politics. If you have chosen apathy, then live with it.  I myself am not enamored with either major presidential candidate.  Still I find many reasons to use my right to vote.  Frankly, the last election for president disillusioned me in the process.  The man who won the popular vote, lost the election.  Why, because the political power in the key state was in the hands of a family member.  That politician twisted the process and embarrassed the nation internationally.  The electoral college allows for this, unfortunately, ruining the concept of "one vote-one voice".  Still my disillusion not withstanding, I choose to vote.  I doubt my vote will make any difference in the presidential election, but it will effect policy making on a state and local level.  Not voting, to me, is like a boxer throwing in the towel.  I choose to continue the fight even if it seems fruitless.
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Toe
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« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2004, 03:48:51 PM »

Quote from: "rshetts"
 I also agree with many, that if you choose to abstain from voting then STFU when it comes to politics. If you have chosen apathy, then live with it.


Why? I am paying the salaries of all these elected politicians you know. To me, that carries more weight on the "right" to bitch and moan about them than voting for or against them does.
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draegun
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« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2004, 04:05:38 PM »

Quote from: "Nameless"
One of the big objections raised here was that to get into politics far enough to run for president, you have to basically be a member of an elite club and sell your soul.....

Doesn't putting requirements on being able to vote establish exactly the same kind of elite club?


Yes and no.

Yes, because as you infer, stating requirements to vote sets those people apart from those who are unable or unwilling to vote.  

No, because anyone with half a brain can educate themself to what our political system is about, and requiring a fee puts the burden upon that person who desires to vote.  Requiring a voter to conduct themself responsibily and intelligently does not connote elitetism.

In a tongue and cheek manner, I'd even throw in Heinlein's idea of citizenship/voting rights from Starship Troopers.  It's not a forced ideal, but it requires those who want to be a part of the system to have actually indoctrinated themself in that system.
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Jancelot
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« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2004, 04:10:29 PM »

Quote
We expect that one person can represent in totality a fairly large nation of individuals. HAHAHAHAHAHA.


We don't. In addition to the Executive Branch you're fogetting the Judicial (Supreme Court) and Legislative (Congress).  Checks and balances.  It just so happens that the Republicans control them all.  If you have a problem with who's in office there's only one way to change it.  Vote.

The electoral college may be wonky, but a popular vote is not the answer to 'fixing' it.  If we went to a popular vote we'd never get anyone elected.  The system would be bogged down with years and years of recounts in each precint.  I have yet to hear a valid way of improving the system that wouldn't bring in a slew of new problems with it.  I'm open to informed suggestions, though.

Politics aren't perfect (shocker!).  Never have been, never will be.  If you're waiting for a perfect candidate or a perfect system then pull up a chair and get comfy.  Every vote counts (except in Florida).  If all of the people sitting on their butts in your state would get off them and vote there might well be a different outcome.  If you think the system sucks then do something about it.  We got to this point due to voter apathy.  There is no way any of you can tell me that you can't take a side on at least one issue and pick a candidate.  For those of you who like to complain but yet not do anything about, just view voting as the ultimate complaint.  smile

Please vote.
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Nameless
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« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2004, 04:16:06 PM »

But you're setting an unrealistic standard.  If you asked the 'average American' to spend time researching every issue before they voted, which part of their responsibility would you have them drop?  I mean, people are so busy that they don't even have time to sleep, and you want them to research issues, take tests, etc?

I agree with you that it would be nice if people were more educated on issues, but I disagree that it can be a requirement.  What happens is, if people feel strongly enough about something, they vote.  If not, they don't.  So in a sense, you do only get people that actually have an opinion.

Putting requirements around voting, though, is creating a group of 'elite' members of society, an idea which this country has been fighting against for thirty years, albeit unsuccessfully at times.

One of the problems as I see it is that there is no truly impartial source for information on issues.  For instance, every locality has proposals on the ballot all of the time.  But you never actually get to see facts about them.  You only see the two different sides advertising repeatedly.  

Another problem is party voters.  I think this is the true tragedy.  This is a voter who votes for someone soley on party affiliation rather than because of any knowledge of the person's platform.  I almost wish it was illegal to list party affiliation on ballots.
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draegun
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« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2004, 04:20:11 PM »

Quote
We don't. In addition to the Executive Branch you're fogetting the Judicial (Supreme Court) and Legislative (Congress). Checks and balances. It just so happens that the Republicans control them all. If you have a problem with who's in office there's only one way to change it. Vote.


Personally, I think the Executive Branch as it stands now could be split up into a council of sorts.  Split the country into major regions and elect a representative from each to be a member of the Executive Council.  You could have the member with the most prestige or popularity or seniority be the major-domo of the group.
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Fuzzballx
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« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2004, 04:20:36 PM »

I could agree easily with making states split their electoral college vote based on percentages.  However, doing away with the electoral college is a very bad idea which is precisely why it'll never happen.  Thankfully it is the one protection small states have of retraining any control.  Small states and rural areas have different interests and issues from metros.  If the electoral college were to dissappear the voices of Americas farmers, ranchers, and country folk would dissappear right along with it.  It's a very common thing to hear big city folk talk about doing away with the electoral college cause they're sick of country folk having such a big say.  You don't find small state citizens and country folks talk about doing away with the electoral college nearly as often...unless they're liberal.  Why? Because liberal folk tend to reside as a percentage much more in the large metros.  The college is neccessary for small states rights.

However, all states should be forced to split their electoral vote based on percentage.  Not splitting the electoral vote based on percentage is in my opinion treason on the level of an entire state it's so wrong.  I'm certain that some universal rule for how to devide the electoral vote based on percentages could be developed that would be fair.  The hardest part would be for ex how to portion an electoral vote in a state with 3 votes where 11% vote for one and 89% for another, but i'm sure a universsal rule could be developed for to determine just who won the votes.

This could also just as easily be a point system instead of a college of voters.

However, going to a straight popular vote would destroy our country in very short order.  We were NOT founded as a pure democracy.  Probably the greatest falacy of our history that we now think of ourselves as a democracy.  We were created as a democratic republic.  There is a HUGE difference.

We fought a civil war over states rights.  We're fighting another one today on the political scene that is just as important.  You have one side that wants to kill the electoral college and bring the power of the vote to the big cities and you have the other side that wants to keep the electoral college and keep the power in the hands of the individual states and keep their state's rights.  If we do away with the college, half the country's states may as well seceed again since they will have almost zero say in anothing politically and their interests will NOT be looked out for in any way at all.
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draegun
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« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2004, 04:26:04 PM »

Quote from: "Nameless"
But you're setting an unrealistic standard.  If you asked the 'average American' to spend time researching every issue before they voted, which part of their responsibility would you have them drop?  I mean, people are so busy that they don't even have time to sleep, and you want them to research issues, take tests, etc?

I agree with you that it would be nice if people were more educated on issues, but I disagree that it can be a requirement.  What happens is, if people feel strongly enough about something, they vote.  If not, they don't.  So in a sense, you do only get people that actually have an opinion.

Putting requirements around voting, though, is creating a group of 'elite' members of society, an idea which this country has been fighting against for thirty years, albeit unsuccessfully at times.

One of the problems as I see it is that there is no truly impartial source for information on issues.  For instance, every locality has proposals on the ballot all of the time.  But you never actually get to see facts about them.  You only see the two different sides advertising repeatedly.  

Another problem is party voters.  I think this is the true tragedy.  This is a voter who votes for someone soley on party affiliation rather than because of any knowledge of the person's platform.  I almost wish it was illegal to list party affiliation on ballots.


Agree.  Agree.  Agree.

It would be impossible to study every issue.  My suggestion was a civics based exam -- one time or even every decade or something.  Require people to understand the system they are so adamantly determined to participate in.  At least then they'll be informed enough of the possible consequences of voting one way or another because they have a foundation of knowledge.  

Naive, most likely yes.
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Nameless
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« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2004, 05:40:35 PM »

What good would knowledge of the system do?  It has nothing to do with the issues typically.  Everyone in Michigan has to go through American Government in their senior year of high school.  So right when they turn 18, they likely have exactly the knowledge you're looking for.  Does that mean you think that 18 year old Americans are good voters?
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draegun
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« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2004, 06:58:10 PM »

Just because someone is forced to take Civics in High Prison, doesn't necessarily mean they have knowledge of the process.  

Hell, I took Algebra 1 and 2 and Chem 1 and 2 in high school.  Do you think I know a damn thing about those two subjects even though I took two years of classes ?????

I had no motivation to learn or remember what I did learn.  If I was told today that in ninety days I could earn 100k a year as a chemist, but all I had to do was pass a test stating I understood the fundementals of chemistry and math -- damn skippy! I'm going to be burning the midnight oil.

The difference is that the onus is on me to produce the knowledge and follow through with it.
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Nameless
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« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2004, 07:11:11 PM »

But you have to pass an American government class in order to graduate.  So you already have to display a minimum level of competency.  People come out of high school having just passed exactly what you're asking for.  And I would contend that the average high school voter is probably a crappy one (ie apathy, distance from any real issues, etc).

In my opinion, if the average adult feels strongly enough about something to get off their butt and go vote, then that's all I can ask.  I think that if you try to restrict the vote to a select group, you create a societal division that can do nothing but cause problems.
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draegun
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« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2004, 08:04:44 PM »

Quote
Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:11 pm    Post subject:  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
But you have to pass an American government class in order to graduate. So you already have to display a minimum level of competency. People come out of high school having just passed exactly what you're asking for. And I would contend that the average high school voter is probably a crappy one (ie apathy, distance from any real issues, etc).  


That's crap.  If knowing how to wipe your ass without getting shit on it constitutes the minimum level of competency, then yes, I agree.  99.9% of the stuff I know about American politics/history I learned after I was out of school.

I'm not talking about forced testing or forced classes.  You have a test with fairly simple questions about the process in which we live.  You want to vote?  Then you'll pass this test.  Personally, I'd make it a fucking hard ass test.  Name all the presidents.  How many electoral votes are there?  What's the difference between democracy and democratic republics and socialism and communism blah blah.  Real nuts and bolts shit, but I'm only saying to have a simple test for the average sheep to pass before being allowed to vote.

My son had to take many hours worth of class and take several test in order to get his driving license, but no one gripes about the social ramifications of that!  But you ask someone to pass an exam or pay a fee to vote -- something just as consequentially dangerous as allowing a  person behind the wheel -- and people talk about how will split society.

You're right.  It will split society up into two major groups:  Responsible Voters and Lazy Stupid Non-voters -- in a perfect world  :wink:
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Nameless
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« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2004, 08:12:07 PM »

If the test is easy, then it does nothing more than the American government class did in your senior year of high school.  If it's hard, then you exclude huge portions of the population....    which I don't think is NECESSARILY a bad thing, except that you would exclude huge demographic chunks of data.  And then you end up with taxation without representation and all of that.  I think you have to allow everyone to vote if they want to, no matter the cost.  Otherwise, you end up creating divisions, which I insist is a huge problem.
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draegun
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« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2004, 08:20:32 PM »

Ask JSHAW about taxation without representation.  Sounds like he already has that and he DID vote.

What we're discussing is just the lump on the log.
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JSHAW
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« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2004, 09:23:42 PM »

There's nothing LAZY about not wanting to vote for people that you DO NOT believe in, there's nothing LAZY about me not wanting to go to the poll and cast a vote for people that I have no confidence in.

You "pro-vote" people can shout it out from the top of the hills till you're blue in the face but you can't FORCE people to do what they don't WANT and CHOSE to do of their own freewill. Isn't FREEDOM one of the principles that this country still proclaims they want to bring to the people around the world that have no freedom? I'm FREE to NOT VOTE. For those that don't like my choice, I don't give a damn. I don't care if my choice is unpopular, it's my choice. I don't care one bit what people think about me. But I do know this with every fiber of my being; It's NOT LAZY for me to NOT VOTE for the 3 jackholes that are on this year's ballot for president. I'm VERY INFORMED on all 3, and I chose to not cast my vote for any of them.

I WILL accept whatever outcome of any of the political races today, and I WILL support those politicians that do a good job FOR THE PEOPLE of this country. I WILL always support and respect the politicians, be they REPUBLICAN or DEMOCRAT that do the best job they can FOR THE PEOPLE.


In this country I have the freedom to NOT VOTE.
All you voting nazi's can kiss my ass, it ain't happening this year for me.
 Tongue
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« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2004, 10:52:27 PM »

I didn't vote, nor do I intend to.

However, I reserved the right to complain several months ago.

This protected complaining without voting is the way to go, imo.
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VynlSol
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« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2004, 11:31:59 PM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
I didn't vote, nor do I intend to.



That's cool, this country needs its sheep just like any other.
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« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2004, 02:02:08 AM »

Quote from: "VynlSol"
Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
I didn't vote, nor do I intend to.



That's cool, this country needs its sheep just like any other.
Those would be republicans, not non-voters.

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Greggy_D
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« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2004, 03:18:39 AM »

As of 10:15pm EST

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« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2004, 04:18:47 AM »

Who's ready for some hot Patriot Act invoking?!  Heil Herr Bush!

Predictions for Bush's potential second term:

-Crippled Social Liberties.  Kiss your privacy goodbye.
-Nuclear, Biological, or Chemical terrorist attack in retaliation for Bush's victory.
-Over-invocation of the Patriot Act in after the inevitable next terrorist attack.  Freedom of the press is sacrificed for 'national security.'
-International allies trickle away from the US.  Bush gets nervous and accepts a bad deal which leads to war in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and/or North Korea, possibly.  Best-case scenario is Iraq Part 2, or if North Korea gets involved, a Second Vietnam.  Worst-case sceario is a potentially apocalyptic World War 3 opening with a North Korean WMD attack on US soil.

Quite frankly, it's my opinion that if Bush wins the election, our country is fucked.  I might be wrong--he might just sit on his hands for four years, occasionally pulling stupid but harmless stunts here and there.  Or he might just continue on his bigoted, ignorant trend of ruining this country.

How did this country get so brainwashed as to even give this bimbo a chance to be re-elected...?
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« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2004, 04:59:22 AM »

I can understand why the Electoral College is needed for smaller states, but why give us the illusion that our vote counts when its really up to the College? Why not just let the College decide every election? All I know is, I lost my faith when the majority of America voted for Gore yet we got Bush (it was my first time voting)... I don't know its embarrasing I guess. I don't know how many of you visit outside of the country, but I've been to the Middle East (Jordan, Israel/Palestine, Egypt) and Germany and any time I try to have a serious politican discussion its embarrassing having to even bring Bush up. Not saying that the leaders of the countries I've been to are great, but all things considered... I dunno does anyone else know what I mean? To be blunt about it Bush is a fucking moron and its painfully obvious every time he speaks.
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« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2004, 08:04:43 AM »

Yeah Bush is a real moron.

Give me a fucking break.  He is one of the most powerful people ever.  Do you *really* think that is gonna happen to a 'moron'?  He just stumbled into the presidency because of what?  His dad?  Oh and he just got re-elected.  If you think he is a moron then I think you are confused as to the definition.

As for having a serious political discussion with the rest of the world...lol what is to discuss with most of those countries you mention?  Do you idolize German political leadership?  Egypt?  Jordan?  Get a clue man.

olaf
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« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2004, 08:34:44 AM »

Its simple LE...look at the states Bush won....and look at the states Kerry won. This country is really the coasts vs. the middle. No comment on the middle, but Walmart comes to mind.
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« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2004, 01:03:02 PM »

Updated 8am EST:

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« Reply #68 on: November 03, 2004, 02:07:55 PM »

Wow!  When I went to bed a midnight, Michigan was in the hands of Bush.  
WTF!  In a good way.  I didn't vote for Kerry, but in my heart I wanted him to beat Bush.  

That almost makes me feel better about this state . . .  almost.  I found out this morning that we're a state half-full of bigots!!!!  55% voted for prop 2, which outlaws gay marriage and quite possibly common law marriages, as well -- still researching that aspect.  

Confusing though, we vote for Kerry and yet vote for Bush morally.  People are inconsistent sheep.
Quote
Heeding conservative Republicans and many religious leaders, Michigan voters on Tuesday were overwhelmingly approving a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage
http://www.detnews.com/2004/politics/0411/03/a05-324203.htm

 :evil:
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« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2004, 02:12:40 PM »

The sad part about this is that both of these cantidates are pretty lame.  To get to the point where you can even consider running for president implies that you've been through so much sucking up to so many different people and groups, it's just impossible to get a good cantidate to that point.

Realistically, how many people out of 300 million Americans do you think could legitemately run for president every four years?  Because if Bush and Kerry are our best and brightest, then I'm very scared for the future.
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draegun
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« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2004, 02:36:53 PM »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3665276.stm


Excellent article regarding Bush.  

Nameless, I'm going to disagree with you once more  :oops:  and tell you that I personally think that Bush is brilliant -- consistent for me -- however much I dislike the man.  This article gives a great point regarding his "act?".

Kerry got all those votes he did, not because he was a great politician, but simply because people hate Bush so much.  But Bush is going to win, again, dispite half the country hating him.  

:idea: He's a fucking cult figure. :idea:

Damn!  I just thought of it!!  He's going to start an American Taliban.  Why didn't I see it before???
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Nameless
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« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2004, 06:24:31 PM »

I'm not implying that I think Bush and Kerry are intelligent, but rather, I'm implying that to get to the point where you can run for president, I think you pretty much have to have compromised your morals, broken several laws, sucked up to numerous special interests, called in countless favors, and crushed several innocent people.  Basically, I'm saying that I think they're both dirtbags.
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Greggy_D
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« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2004, 06:34:09 PM »

Quote from: "Nameless"
I think you pretty much have to have compromised your morals, broken several laws, sucked up to numerous special interests, called in countless favors, and crushed several innocent people.  


Politics 101
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