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Author Topic: Which Superman II is Cannon?  (Read 1024 times)
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metallicorphan
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« on: July 12, 2009, 05:50:33 PM »

okay,i have the big metal box of all the superman films(I-IV+Superman Returns)

included in the box set is the Donner Cut of Superman II
(Richard Donner was the director of the first and they filmed most of the second at the same time,and for some reason he was replaced by Richard Lester)

...i have already watched them all when i first got the box set,i remember the Donner cut had some special effects not finished etc,but i was about to start watching them all again

so,which Superman II film should i watch with the rest?...The Donner cut or the original Dick Lester version?
The Donner cut is 10 minutes less than the original version...but i remember,Marlon Brando having some part to play in the Donner cut,when i don't think he was in the original second film..yet i know some scenes aren't in the Donner cut that ARE in the original Supes 2(the moon fight with General Zod and co Vs the Astronauts...i say fight...)..i think some scenes with the evil Kryptonites in that sleepy American town were also not in the Donner version

couldn't they of made an ultimate version...Lester/Donner?,LOL



so which film would you watch if you were watching them all?





off topic somewhat:i still watch Superman III and IV even though Superman Returns acted as though they didn't exist(it was a sequel to Superman 2..rather than a sequel to 4)you can't blame it,3 was so-so...but 4 was some right dire shit
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2009, 07:30:07 PM »

It's hard to say. I really liked some of the Donner cuts, but overall, it left me wanting. There were some of his cuts that I thought should of been in the original. Like the part where Clark goes back and gets his powers back. I like the way that was explained, as in the original it just kind of came out of the blue with no explanation.
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2009, 09:17:04 PM »

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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2009, 09:19:23 PM »

You should absolutely watch the Donnor cut as it absolutely, resoundingly fantastic. He keeps some bits of the Lester version and had to improve and use some test footage to complete scenes, but overall I was blown away by it. If you can also ignore the recycled ending, which is not how things were supposed to end originally. Watch the movie, then check out the documentary on it. After watching this I tossed the old version and intend to replace it with the Donnor cut ASAP.
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2009, 09:25:08 PM »

I haven't seen either version in a while, but remember liking the Donner version better.  I think it removes a couple of funny things from the theatrically released version, but it also makes a bit more sense.  I think Luthor gets a couple of extra, good lines in the Donner version as well.  
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2009, 10:49:23 PM »

I've never heard anything about this before.
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2009, 11:07:15 PM »

They were all crap, so you could fire all of them out of a cannon. So in my book none of them would be canon. Tongue
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metallicorphan
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2009, 01:08:49 AM »

Superman...crap???..LOL


WBS-it was actually the ending of the Donner cut that made me really ask this question...as i remember how 'WTF?' expression was on my face for about 2 days after...i think after he did that again,and THEN he went back to that bar where the Bully was..but then he wouldn't remember him,right?..confusing

i have only just realised that there is a 3rd Superman II disc in my box set(4 for Superman I,3 for Superman II,1 for superman III,1 for Superman IV,2 for Superman Returns and then 2 discs with all other superman related stuff,Warner cartoons,The Adventures of Superpup etc...no Supergirl icon_frown )

so i will check out the Superman 2 documentary

just watched the first one again and seeing Terence Stamp(General Zod) having first appeared at the beginning of it,being sentenced to The Forbidden Zone by Marlon Brando,made me wonder why they got rid of Donner,he obviously had everything planned for both films to be one big film...i think it was one of the Salkinds that got rid of him,hopefully the documentaries will let me know more

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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2009, 04:21:37 AM »

Quote from: metallicorphan on July 13, 2009, 01:08:49 AM

Superman...crap???..LOL


WBS-it was actually the ending of the Donner cut that made me really ask this question...as i remember how 'WTF?' expression was on my face for about 2 days after...i think after he did that again,and THEN he went back to that bar where the Bully was..but then he wouldn't remember him,right?..confusing

i have only just realised that there is a 3rd Superman II disc in my box set(4 for Superman I,3 for Superman II,1 for superman III,1 for Superman IV,2 for Superman Returns and then 2 discs with all other superman related stuff,Warner cartoons,The Adventures of Superpup etc...no Supergirl icon_frown )

so i will check out the Superman 2 documentary

just watched the first one again and seeing Terence Stamp(General Zod) having first appeared at the beginning of it,being sentenced to The Forbidden Zone by Marlon Brando,made me wonder why they got rid of Donner,he obviously had everything planned for both films to be one big film...i think it was one of the Salkinds that got rid of him,hopefully the documentaries will let me know more

The docs definitely explain why the endings for parts 1 and 2 were essentially the same, as well as why Donnor kept certain elements which conflicted with other elements (like the ending and then the bar "retribution"). It also provides a great deal of insight into the process, and how Donnor and the writer came back to it after 20+ years and had to remind themselves where they were at the time and what they intended. Is the Donnor cut perfect? Nope. But I think it is a heck of a lot better than the Lester cut. Plus, I really like seeing Donnor do what he can to get his version of the film out there after so long. One of my favorite bits is the extensive Jor-El sequence, and how he just looks at Lois while Superman gives up his powers. Simple, but very effective. Let me know what you think after seeing the documentary.
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2009, 04:46:11 AM »

I always liked how normal people are seemingly able to walk back and forth to the North Pole in this movie, while wearing normal clothes and not using more than a few hours.
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2009, 04:55:27 AM »

Superman II is such a tragic film -- not the story, but the story about the making of the film. While lots of people prefer it to what is actually a far-superior original, because of the big fight scenes, mostly, it was actually on course to being a much, much better film than it turned out to be. Every change Lester made to the script and/or in reshooting scenes Donner had already shot made the film weaker.

I was very glad the let Donner do his "cut" of the film. It's a bit awkward in places, 'cause he had to use what was available to him, but the fact that they made a film that was basically 95% of what he was setting out to do, using a combination of footage from both Superman II shoots, Superman I, rehearsals and audition reels is nothing short of extraordinary. I definitely recommend watching it and considering it the "canon" Superman II, just keep the limitations of what they had to work with in mind while doing so.
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metallicorphan
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2009, 12:35:16 PM »

i watched Superman I yesterday and i have just watched the documentaries for that...it explained in some,why Donner was fired from finishing number II,basically the Salkinds were assholes...they were expecting Donner to quit or cause a fuss that they could fire him easily(and they were gonna bring in Dick Lester much earlier),but because Richard Donner wanted to see it through,instead they waited until they got Superman:The Movie out,it became a big hit...and they fired him.makes perfect sense(!),they were running out of money for the film,having to negotiate with Warners more and more and they took their frustrations out on Donner,or so it is said
all the actors..Reeve,Kidder..even Gene Hackman were sad and angry to what happened to him,they should of all striked,to get him back icon_biggrin

i know Dick Lester,directed the Muskerteer(Oliver Reed,Michael York) films with the Salkinds producing them as well,thats prolly why Dick Lester was favoured for taking over



i may even watch both Lester and Donners version of Superman II and compare them,i haven't watched the Lester version for a long time,i remember always liking it better than superman I until last time i saw it and i saw that some of it was a bit cheesy(Lois falling into the water to 'entice' Superman out of Clark)...but the extra footage of Christopher Reeve and Marlon Brando is waayyy to go to pass up watching again on the Donner version


i can't actually see a documentary listed for the Donner cut on the seperate 3rd Superman 2 disc...it just says the making of superman II TV special..i would presume that is for Dick Lester's film...on the two discs of the different versions of superman II,they just each have deleted scenes and commentary's ...looking on the Wiki page for the Donner cut,shows the special features have a 13 minute featurette entitled Superman II:Restoring the Vision...but in the 13 discs i have here,i can't see that listed...i am hoping when i get to the disc i can find it,it would prolly be the best/most interesting feature in the whole set


all in all i suppose Superman II the original release did do well,as i have just found out that Dick Lester directed Superman III as well,i didn't know that(that means him and Donner both have 1 and a half superman films under their belt,LOL)






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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2009, 02:51:30 PM »

I'd watch the theatrical release of Superman II first and then later go back and watch the Donner cut.  That way, you will appreciate the Donner cut more and be more tolerant of the unfinished footage (the screen test stuff is kinda fun but jarring if that is your first experience with Superman II).

Also, Superman III should be watched in this order:

1.  Open the case.
2.  Throw the disc away.
3.  Forget Superman III ever existed, especially the brutally embarrassing Atari scene.

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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2009, 02:58:48 PM »

Quote from: Freezer-TPF- on July 13, 2009, 02:51:30 PM

Also, Superman III should be watched in this order:

1.  Open the case.
2.  Throw the disc away.
3.  Forget Superman III ever existed, especially the brutally embarrassing Atari scene.

Yeah, go watch Cloak and Dagger instead.
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metallicorphan
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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2009, 03:28:48 PM »

woah,woah,woah....are you guys saying that you actually like superman 4 better?...for me,that's what i should do with superman 4 and forget all about Nuclear man(Christopher Reeve apparently did some of the story because the Nuclear arms thing was big in the news at the time),and all that stupid bullshit about Superman and Clark trying to date two women at the same time.shhhhhhhhhhhite...the least said about Lex's Nephew-Jon Cryer the better...after all that,it makes number 3 look like friggin' Jurassic Park
kinda ashamed i went to the cinema to watch it icon_cry



Superman 3 wasn't that bad,to many jokes and no Lex Luther sure,but what about the Clark Vs bad Superman fight in the scrap yard..and just basically the bad superman scenes(flicking peanuts to smash the glasses at the bar)...and superman freezing that lake so he could carry the ice to put out that big fire...movie magic right there!! icon_biggrin

but yeah on the video game action against the missiles

i saw Cloak and Dagger years ago,i only watched it because Henry Thomas,can't remember a thing of it

i have one more disc to go with Superman I,then i will move onto Supes 2,i will watch Lester's version first like you say Freezer


watching the first now,i can't take the Superman and Lois flying scene seriously anymore after the same scene in Hotshots,and Charlie Sheen trying to get that damn bird of his arm,LOL
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2009, 04:54:09 PM »

I enjoy watching Superman 1 and 2 when they are on but you can't make me watch 3 and 4.
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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2009, 07:01:38 PM »

I agree the Bad Superman stuff is amusing.  For some reason I thought that was in IV.  I guess I got my crappy Supermovies mixed up.  icon_biggrin
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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2009, 09:35:26 PM »

well i finally watched the last disc of Superman I..and then the Lester - Superman II

in the last disc of Superman I there is an hour making off presented by Christopher Reeve from maybe a year or two after the film came out,Richard Donner is saying of the time he found out he was to direct Superman,and he got told from the Salkinds that they had a short list of nearly every actor old enough to play Superman
Robert Redford
Nick Nolte
Paul Newman to name a few

and Donner had thought they were all terrible choices(they were),so he decided to go for an unknown


now,then there was an interview with Ilya Salkind who said that he knew right from the beginning that they should go with an unknown retard....i think i will go with Donner's version of events

its also pretty sad that during filming of Superman I,they filmed all the difficult flying scenes of Superman II,and lots of other difficult stuff...only for Donner to get fired,and along comes Dick Lester and gets all the credit



Superman II the Lester Version,started off weak....they have a recap of what happened in the first film,all the events on Krypton were re-filmed,but minus Marlon Brando,like the guilty verdict of General Zod etc..or them putting Kal-El into that spaceship thing..all filmed with just Susannah York(Superman's mum)..but no Superman's dad

didn't really need the recap in the first place(well,i had only just watched the first),and it just seemed dumb to pay Marlon Brando all that money in the first one,just to try and erase everything he did by re-filming it without him for the second one


the fight scene was cool,caved in to give everyone what they wanted,LOL(again,not sure who's this scene was Donner/Lester)


everything else seemed fine,i am quite eager to see how much of a difference there is between the two(having not seen the Donner cut for a few years now since i first got it)..with Lesters version so fresh in my mind(i didn't watch the Lester version when i first got this box set)


Otis(Ned Beatty)and Miss Teschmacher(Valerie Perrine)..are both wasted in this film though(5-10 minutes top for each)


why is Clark such a dumbass though?..he is so accident prone,sure Superman wants to keep in Character for Clark,but its at a risk of exposing himself...Clark crosses the road and gets hit by a taxi and pretty much writes off the taxi...crushing his thumb in the orange squeezer ...i just don't get that part at all,sure act a dick if you want,but not so it can expose you


there was one deleted scene on the Lester Superman II disc(i guess they saved them all for the Donner cut)..and it was a stupid deleted scene..where Superman and Lois are cooking a Suffle,with Supermans heat vision laser things that come out of his eyes(although they played on the fact that Suprman was a virgin)

good ol' Youtube has it(40 seconds long)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzw7_7ZrdH8

there are quite a few deleted scenes on Youtube,i will check them out after i watch The Donner version disc(film and extras)
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« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2009, 10:29:06 PM »

My brother and I watched the original "Lester cut" back in probably about 1981 at a military base theater in Seoul, Korea, and we adored it. Given that Donner shot quite a lot of Superman II footage while filming the first movie, I do find it rather sad he didn't get some sort of credit on the original release.

But we didn't walk out of the theater saying, "Gee, that was missing something" or "Gosh, I wish the movie was 15 minutes longer."

I bought the extended version of Aliens, and to me all the expository scenes of the space colony and other characters suggested but never seen in the theatrical release didn't improve the film at all. If anything, it slowed the pacing down. Sometimes you're better off with suggested exposition, than having a bunch of additional footage. I've several times bought "director's cuts" of films only to basically regret it (I like the ones where you have both the theatrical and a director's cut or extended version to choose from).

That said, I can see where it's fun to see a director's cut, or to see what Donner would have done with Superman II in this case. I know from interviews, that Donner was just crushed not to get to fully direct Superman II. But I totally loved the original theatrical cut of the film, and that's probably what I would recommend to casual fans; and the Donner cut to "completists" and those who had to see the something like 6 different cuts of Blade Runner.
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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2009, 07:47:03 PM »

just watched the Donner cut...and yes the Lester cut was great,but damn,the Donner cut had lots of interesting stuff in it and some fleshed out scenes

The Paris Eiffel Tower bomb terrorist situation is gone..this time instead of the terrorist bomb that explodes in space and breaks the phantom zone where Zod and co are...its one of Lex Luther's rockets that superman threw into space in the first film

there are now a lot more daily planet footage at the beginning of the film,where Lois originally clocks on that Clark is Superman,she has a picture of superman in the paper,and she sees Clark stood just like Superman and she draws a suit,glasses and hat on the picture...and then confronts him in the office and throws herself out of the window to prove he is superman(i'm not gonna tell you what happens to Lois,i guess you know she doesn't go splat anyway)

however,the part in the hotel where Lois finds out has gone,replaced by a screen test where Lois shoots Clark with a blank,Superman doesn't know its a blank,and lets her know that he is supes...so her falling into the river has also gone..because its a screen test,Clarks glasses keep changing in different scenes

the opening flashback puts in Marlon Brando again,also has his voice over while Supes is a baby flying through space telling him that the 3 blankets,red,yellow and Blue will protect him

Superman does the deed to Lois BEFORE he gives up his powers,and then when Superman is explaining to his father that he wants to give up his powers for Lois,Jor-El tries to talk him out of it with Lois Lane in Supermans f**king shirt on,looking on from a distance(you know like how your woman wears your shirt to get up to go to the bathroom or something)

No arm wrestle for Ursa,and quite a bit of footage taken out of General Zod in that small town,America

the big city fight is still there,fleshed out in some parts while the crap comedy parts(ice cream flying into someones face,wigs flying about etc )have been taken out..and a few more scenes back at the daily planet with Lex while that fight is going on have been added(he also wants Cuba)

superman getting his powers back is actually described better here,with the green crystal..his fathers image returns,tells him that he anticipated this,but with the remaining of Jor-Els powers that will give superman back his power,it means that Jor-el will be gone forever,and goes on about the son becoming the father etc(which i think is a theme from superman returns)..it also showed Superman having more of a stuggle actually getting back to the north pole


the ending?...well,yeah its a cop out with him spinning the world around again,because he does that everything is erased,and not just the Lois and Superman thing with the kiss in Lester's version...General Zod and co go back into space with the Phantom Zone
(he actually destroys his own home-laser vision stuff- after the fight in there,but before he turns the world round again..does that mean his home still stands?)

but other than that it was damn great stuff to watch...i had no idea that there was so much Marlon Brando stuff,so it was great watching it all

it does however remain as said a 'what if'...i doubt we would see an Ultimate version with Donner's stuff and lester's stuff filling in the gaps,as Richard Donner didn't even want to say Richard Lester's name in the making off(which WAS included on the disc,just isn't listed for some reason)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009, 07:49:49 PM by metallicorphan » Logged

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