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Author Topic: Was I a jerk?  (Read 5468 times)
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Semaj
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« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2008, 05:42:47 PM »

I have a huge problem with the 21 drinking age and yes I am well above it.

In my eyes if you can decide who runs the country (Vote) and die for the country (Enlist) why cant you drink?  People claim it saves lives, but banning drinking saves more lives.  Drunk drivers come in all age brackets, so the hypocrisy of 21 boggles my mind.

If someone is under 18 and is drinking, go right ahead and blow em in.  I have no problem with it.  But there are a few missing factors in the equation before one can really pass any are you a jerk question.

1) How were they drinking, was there like 20 beers in front of 3 of them and it was obvious they were drinking irresponsibly.  Were they having a beer with dinner?   Was one person drinking or was everyone there drinking?

2) Was anyone who was with them actually 21, and possibly the only person drinking alcohol?

3) Did they have decent fake id's? (sadly this isn't the best question, but at this point the restaurant isn't nearly as liable if its a decent valid fake id)

Now if you know one of them is is obviously well under age, drinking and drinking irresponsibly and in a restaurant, warn the people who run the place.  If the manager is willing to risk the 10k fine or whatever it is these days and his job, either it's someone who is a good friend or the owners daughter.  That or they have been in there before, not caused any trouble and as such the management doesn't care.  Then unless it happens all the time, I'd probably not care.  People who get mad because other people are having fun while being responcible, even if it's a little shaky, are just being a jerk.  Like those old people who call the police because some kids are skateboarding on a curb, it's not because they are causing trouble, it's because they are having fun.

I'd say what you did was meh if it was 1 or 2 people at a table of 5 actually drinking, and silly if it was 1.  But, you were well within your rights.  Personally, I wouldn't go back to said restaurant, because they _know_ it was you who blew em in.  As such, your food may not be as well prepared next time, or the service as nice.

Anyone who pulls the drunk driving card without knowing if the driver is drinking is an idiot.  People are becoming more responsible about letting other people drive when they themselves are drunk.  God knows, I've left my car in a few parking lots overnight recently.  But to assume the worst in people without knowing all the facts is... Ok must stop being preachy....

Me my real pet peeve is people who bitch because you do card.  Is someone else supposed to risk their job because you are too lazy to pull your wallet/purse out and show them you are legal drinking age?   Or if your friend isn't legal and you buy 2 beers, are they supposed to sell it to you knowing they will be in deep shit if they have any idea you are giving it to said underage person.  I dunno maybe it's all the years of bartending, but the lines: "No one else has ever proofed me here, thats not how "So and so's" does it (What a great name for a bar... hey lets go to so and so's tonight.) etc.." just irk me.  If your job requires you to not put the company in liability, don't expect them to.  No one comes to your bank and asks you to give them a home equity loan without a background check or any form of research or collateral.

*gets off his stool*
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« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2008, 05:45:27 PM »

Quote from: Jarrodhk on April 05, 2008, 05:17:50 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 05, 2008, 05:12:58 PM

Quote from: Jarrodhk on April 05, 2008, 05:11:49 PM

It seems like there are some that think you should act like the people in the neighborhood in NYC that heard a woman getting beat to death, and no one called the police for quite a long time.  At which point it did her no good, since she was dead.

Yes, clearly half the posters at GT are pro-death-by-beating.  That's the only conclusion to draw.

Yeah, that's what I said.

You're attempting to draw a connection between people who fail to act during the commission of an active and violent crime with people who "fail to act" during the commission of a potential and often harmless "crime."  If I see someone about to drive drunk, I will attempt to stop them - regardless of their age.  Unless I was, for some reason, afraid for my life, I'd confront them myself, especially if I knew them personally.

I'd be more sympathetic to the OP's story if it went "I saw this girl I knew to be underage drinking at a bar.  I said - hey, Suzy-Q, you really shouldn't be throwing down the Zimas as it's likely you'll get stuck with an MIP, and I'm worried about you careening your Vespa into a school bus full of orphans.  And then she said 'Screw you, pig!', so I reluctantly called the cops after the manager spat in my face."
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« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2008, 07:03:36 PM »

Telling the management = Not a jerk. Good for you for trying to help.
Calling the cops = Kind of a jerk. I doubt you can say under 100% certainty that you know exactly what the situation was.
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« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2008, 07:24:48 PM »

Quote from: papasmurff on April 05, 2008, 05:35:22 AM

SO the question again is...was I a dick?

Generally speaking, if you feel the need to ask the question then the answer is almost always "yes". Ask yourself honestly: were you more upset that people weren't doing the right thing, or were you upset that people weren't doing what YOU thought was the right thing? There is a difference.

How old are these kids? Are they 16 year olds with some facial growth or are they a couple of months shy of 21? Why didn't the manager act on it, do you think? Did they present ID that appeared to be valid? I can't think of any other reason why the manager didn't act on it. "Did they show you valid ID?" "Yes sir, they did." "OK then, never mind."

Are you going to need to deal with this manager professionally at some point in the future? If so, how do you think he's going to remember you? As the guy who helped him out, or as the jerkoff that brought cops into his business after he already handled the situation? If you're just starting out in your career, you want to be careful you don't burn all your bridges on day one.

What did your co-workers think of the whole thing? Were they egging you on, or did you find yourself suddenly alone because you insisted on pushing the issue?

Sometimes you can do the right thing the wrong way and accomplish nothing besides pissing everyone off.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 07:28:44 PM by noun » Logged
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« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2008, 07:26:04 PM »

Not a jerk. 

The restaurant wasn't serving 12-year-olds or guys on their eighth shot rattling their car keys.  But seriously -- if a restaurant gets told they are serving minors, and goes "meh" and keeps doing it even when the guy who told them is still right there -- are we supposed to believe that they'll be more responsible in more serious situations?  That's kind of a Gary Hart Rule violation.

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« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2008, 07:41:59 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 05, 2008, 05:10:14 PM

Hmm.  I look forward to you guys helpin' a brother out.  Vigilante squad - to action!  Turn in your friends and neighbors!

You are kidding right?   Citizens are really supposed to turn a blind eye to lawbreaking in your opinion?   
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« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2008, 07:44:32 PM »

Quote from: Ridah on April 05, 2008, 05:12:09 PM

How about you call the cops on the government for sending kids to war who are under the age of 21 as well? Seriously, in my opinion what you did was one of the biggest dick hole moves you could make. Mind your fucking business, seriously...

Informing management is one thing, calling the cops? Cripes... Go stalk bars and clubs if you want to catch the problematic ones. Not a few kids at a restaurant.

A child molester would cling to the same logic if someone reported someone for inappropriate touching of an 11 year old.        What makes this different?    We are a nation of laws, and law abiding citizens have a duty to act.
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« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2008, 07:46:44 PM »

Quote from: Ridah on April 05, 2008, 05:14:21 PM

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on April 05, 2008, 02:29:30 PM

I think you did the right thing as well.  I've lost friends and family to DWI so I'm a bit hypersensitive to the subject.  Don't listen to the naysayers who'd have you walk around with blinders on - you saw something wrong and you acted on it. 

So you call the cops on anyone you notice having more than a few drinks or who you believe may possibly be over the limit?

It's not like the kids were being belligerent.

Why should he assume that the kids -- who are breaking the law to begin with -- will decide that the limit is the one law that night they would decide to abide by?    Would you want to be the one to apologize to that dead 4 year old girls' parents?

Most importantly -- how would he know that the restaurant would use good judgement in the future on how many drinks to serve people, how young to serve them, etc?   Basically exercising their liquor license responsibly.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 07:50:03 PM by msduncan » Logged
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« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2008, 08:12:04 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 05, 2008, 07:41:59 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 05, 2008, 05:10:14 PM

Hmm.  I look forward to you guys helpin' a brother out.  Vigilante squad - to action!  Turn in your friends and neighbors!

You are kidding right?   Citizens are really supposed to turn a blind eye to lawbreaking in your opinion?   

Have you ever turned a blind eye to software or music piracy?
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« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2008, 08:12:23 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 05, 2008, 07:44:32 PM

Quote from: Ridah on April 05, 2008, 05:12:09 PM

How about you call the cops on the government for sending kids to war who are under the age of 21 as well? Seriously, in my opinion what you did was one of the biggest dick hole moves you could make. Mind your fucking business, seriously...

Informing management is one thing, calling the cops? Cripes... Go stalk bars and clubs if you want to catch the problematic ones. Not a few kids at a restaurant.

A child molester would cling to the same logic if someone reported someone for inappropriate touching of an 11 year old.        What makes this different?    We are a nation of laws, and law abiding citizens have a duty to act.

I think you mean a Nazi child molester!

Quote
How about you call the cops on the government for sending kids to war who are under the age of 21 as well? Seriously, in my opinion what you did was one of the biggest dick hole moves you could make. Mind your fucking business, seriously...


It's odd how many incongruous comparisons are being bandied about in this thread.  It's like Jr. Debate team trying to figure out how to argue.
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« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2008, 08:13:46 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 05, 2008, 08:12:04 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 05, 2008, 07:41:59 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 05, 2008, 05:10:14 PM

Hmm.  I look forward to you guys helpin' a brother out.  Vigilante squad - to action!  Turn in your friends and neighbors!

You are kidding right?   Citizens are really supposed to turn a blind eye to lawbreaking in your opinion?   

Have you ever turned a blind eye to software or music piracy?

Papa never said he was an anti-crime crusader. He asked if he was acting inappropriately when he did what he did.

It doesn't mean he has to report everyone who jay walks or smokes within 15 feet of a building.

People who say he does are being ridiculous.
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« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2008, 08:31:52 PM »

Are you responsible for everything everyone else does on the planet?

If someone is swerving on the road, you call the police because they are a danger to everyone else.

If you however call the cops because your neighbors have some music playing, loud enough for you to hear and little else while drinking from cups and say they are underage drinking, which you don't know for sure, then are you being a responsible neighbor, or a killjoy?

God knows, I vividly recall a neighbor telling me they were calling the cops for me and my friends underage drinking when the youngest one of us was 25 at the time.  After they yelled at us for having the car stereo on loud enough for us to listen to it from the porch so we turned it off for them.  At that point I accepted some people aren't happy unless you aren't happy in front of them.

Now if the kids were horribly underage and drinking in a restaurant, so be it.  Let the management know, let them deal with it.  Calling the cops questions not only their commitment to their jobs, but implies you assume everyone involved is in some sort of cahoots or shenanigans.  Yes, you in theory followed the laws as they are written.  But, wouldn't telling the person who's kid it is have been a better move overall.  If you have to report them, report them to the people who determine liqueur licenses, or do the fines.   Calling the police just seems like: "Well now my hands are clean" thing.  You were doing it to make yourself feel better, as if to prove you were right and they were wrong.

Some here think underage drinking is the most grievous crime on the planet.  Kids who are underage drink all the time.  At friends houses, at parties and apparently with 40 ouncers at the local seven eleven.  Do you drive around looking for people who are underage and drinking?  Do you hit bars and id everyone there?  Did you yourself drink when you were under age?  At some point you have to accept you can only do so much as a person.  For instance my kids will have been sat down and told I understand and accept they probably wont wait til 21 to drink.  However, if i ever found out they got drunk and drove, there will be consequences and repercussions not only will they not like, but may involve serious pain and suffering.  Also if they get a ride from someone who is drunk I wont be very pleased either. 

It's one thing to have fun, it's another to risk other peoples lives.  You cant police what everyone else does at every moment in time, so unless they are hurting other people (In this case the restaurant was being hurt and after warning them your hands were essentially clean, unless everyone who was in the party was obviously hammered), your best bet is to not worry so much about it.  What he did was morally in the right, they were breaking the law.  But unless the kids were being irresponcible or stupid, calling the cops was more of a 'and take that you whippersnappers' move than anything else.  And thus the argument from people here.

He asked if he was being inappropriate.  On some levels he may have been. on others, not so much.  This isnt a cut or dry issue, there is a matter of opinion that goes into religion, philosophy on life and somewhat politics that will make this a hot button issue.  Me, I'm accepting no answer is right on this thread.  because while I think he went that extra step from being a concerned citizen to a dick, since what he wanted to happen didnt happen, he called the cops.  That may not be what he was doing, but thats how it looks to me.  Others think he did the right thing.  There is no right answer, nor will there ever be.

As such, I blame Mr. Bush for this.  It's his fault, the bastage.
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« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2008, 08:33:06 PM »

Quote from: ATB on April 05, 2008, 08:13:46 PM

Papa never said he was an anti-crime crusader. He asked if he was acting inappropriately when he did what he did.

It doesn't mean he has to report everyone who jay walks or smokes within 15 feet of a building.

People who say he does are being ridiculous.

I think he did act inappropriately, but only by degree.  As I mentioned earlier, he could've intervened directly with this person whom he apparently knew.  That would've been an appropriate reaction, and would've rendered further action (talking to management, calling the police) completely appropriate depending on the response of the presumed-to-be-guilty party.  If papasmurff had seen this same person through the window of their house, would he have behaved the same way?  Would that affect your opinion on its appropriateness?

The ridiculousness in this thread are people who treat legal issues as black and white rather than shades of gray.  I'm certain that every single person on this board has seen evidence - probably dozens or hundreds of times - of software piracy.  Software piracy is illegal.  And yet, they aren't tripping over themselves to rat out the malefactors.  Why not?  Perhaps they think that it's effectively victimless, or that software developers have plenty of money already, or that the companies that they're pirating from "deserve it."  Why does that often get a free pass?  One can imagine plenty of slippery slope consequences that're just as disastrous as drunk driving.

To be clear, I don't expect (or care) if any of you send in reports about alleged piracy.  I'm just trying to illustrate that there's an often arbitrary line in peoples' minds between what's permissible conduct and what's not.

Oh, also, I'm sure Mukasey's full of shit.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 08:35:01 PM by Brendan » Logged
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« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2008, 08:33:44 PM »

Quote from: ATB on April 05, 2008, 08:12:23 PM

It's odd how many incongruous comparisons are being bandied about in this thread.  It's like Jr. Debate team trying to figure out how to argue.
Indeed.  Strawmen ahoy!
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« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2008, 08:51:26 PM »

Quote from: Lee on April 05, 2008, 11:55:19 AM

Quote from: Thin_J on April 05, 2008, 10:35:38 AM

The business in question was plainly breaking a very solid law set in place to prevent the kinds of things I was talking about, whether this situation would have ended that way or not.

So then, do you call the cops every time you see a lone person drink 3 drinks at the bar and then drive home?

That one's simple. I don't go to bars. When I do drink I drink at either my own house or with friends at their own places, but that's generally not often.

The rest of it doesn't really need an answer as it's already been covered by ATB and others. I think Fed summed the whole thing up best actually, if you want to put a finer point on it.
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« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2008, 09:10:20 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on April 05, 2008, 08:12:04 PM

Quote from: msduncan on April 05, 2008, 07:41:59 PM

Quote from: Brendan on April 05, 2008, 05:10:14 PM

Hmm.  I look forward to you guys helpin' a brother out.  Vigilante squad - to action!  Turn in your friends and neighbors!

You are kidding right?   Citizens are really supposed to turn a blind eye to lawbreaking in your opinion?   

Have you ever turned a blind eye to software or music piracy?
Nope.    I'm in full support of bannation of people that discuss that sort of thing here.    It drives the freakin cost of games up for me.   mad
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« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2008, 09:13:58 PM »

Supporting the banning of people for piracy, and agitating for their banning (or reporting them yourself to the "authorities") are different things.
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« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2008, 09:16:27 PM »

TOPIC DRIFT.

Stay on target.

Jerk or not. Thank you.
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« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2008, 09:17:34 PM »

Quote from: ATB on April 05, 2008, 08:12:23 PM

It's odd how many incongruous comparisons are being bandied about in this thread.  It's like Jr. Debate team trying to figure out how to argue.

Especially yours.
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« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2008, 09:19:34 PM »

Good for you to call the cops.  I think you did the right thing.
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« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2008, 09:24:12 PM »

Fed did sum it up quite well. The management should have done something, I agree, but calling the cops was over board.

I find it interesting that a lot of you seem to see a big maturity difference from a 21 year old to a 19 year old. For someone who works with a large portion of kids in that age group I don't see much of a difference. The 21 year olds are just as much dumb asses as the 19 year olds, but the 21 year old is more dangerous because he's out there drinking legally and doesn't think he has anything to worry about while the underage guy doesn't want to draw attention to himself. Of my coworkers I have a good idea of who the underage drinkers are and I have seen quite a few alcohol related incidents with both sides of age group. Without a doubt the majority of irresponsible drinkers are with the 21+ crowd.

As for everyone who keeps relating it to drinking and driving, your problem isn't with underage drinking, but with the driving. Papasmurf should have been calling the cops on all sorts of people I am sure if thats the case. When you guys are out at a restaurant do you sit there watching people drinking heavily that may be driving and then call the cops on them? This is no different.

Thankfully society isn't as self righteous as an internet gaming forum. smile If someone did this in my group of friends 20 years ago or now, they would be ostracized for being an ass (unless it was their responsibility to be looking for such things).
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« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2008, 09:31:32 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Fed on April 05, 2008, 07:26:04 PM

Not a jerk. 

The restaurant wasn't serving 12-year-olds or guys on their eighth shot rattling their car keys.  But seriously -- if a restaurant gets told they are serving minors, and goes "meh" and keeps doing it even when the guy who told them is still right there -- are we supposed to believe that they'll be more responsible in more serious situations?  That's kind of a Gary Hart Rule violation.



Yeah but how the hell do we even know they are minors? I'm sorry but when I was 21 I did NOT look of drinking age, and to have someone report me to management or call the cops on me would be extremely offensive.
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« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2008, 10:34:21 PM »

Quote from: Lee on April 05, 2008, 09:24:12 PM

Thankfully society isn't as self righteous as an internet gaming forum. smile If someone did this in my group of friends 20 years ago or now, they would be ostracized for being an ass (unless it was their responsibility to be looking for such things).

Which would probably be to that person's benefit, as they could then find a better crowd to hang out with.  It's interesting how reporting underage drinkers equates to being an ass, while turning one's back on a friend doesn't equate to being an ass.
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« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2008, 10:47:45 PM »

Quote from: papasmurff on April 05, 2008, 05:16:04 PM

Yes I knew that they were underage.  One of the girls is a friend of one of my friends younger sister.  They were no more than 17.

Seems like this should clear some of this up for some of you.  Still think he should be ignoring what a 17 year old is doing, even if the business appears not to care?

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« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2008, 10:58:28 PM »

Quote from: Ridah on April 05, 2008, 09:31:32 PM

Quote from: Mr. Fed on April 05, 2008, 07:26:04 PM

Not a jerk. 

The restaurant wasn't serving 12-year-olds or guys on their eighth shot rattling their car keys.  But seriously -- if a restaurant gets told they are serving minors, and goes "meh" and keeps doing it even when the guy who told them is still right there -- are we supposed to believe that they'll be more responsible in more serious situations?  That's kind of a Gary Hart Rule violation.



Yeah but how the hell do we even know they are minors? I'm sorry but when I was 21 I did NOT look of drinking age, and to have someone report me to management or call the cops on me would be extremely offensive.


Well, I'm not assuming he was lying when he explicitly said this in the OP:

Quote
I recognized a few individuals at the bar area as being under age, (I had dealt with some stuff with them before).


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« Reply #65 on: April 06, 2008, 12:02:58 AM »

Quote from: happydog on April 05, 2008, 07:03:36 PM

Telling the management = Not a jerk. Good for you for trying to help.
Calling the cops = Kind of a jerk. I doubt you can say under 100% certainty that you know exactly what the situation was.

It's the police's job to investigate.

As to the jerk/not jerk, there is a accountability. Where I live if someone dies of alchohol poisoning and they were being served by an establishment, there is a level of accountability. A liqour license isn't just to say "hey, ya, it's cool man. We sell here" ... it's also a "We take the safety of our patrons seriously, and will follow the spirit of the law as well as the letter to ensure compliance with what our elected officials have worked out as the best system". Even if you disagree with the laws, you are required to follow them. If you want a change, you don't just get to pick and choose the laws you follow; simply ignoring something that could endanger a life because you don't agree and justify it with semantic detail is pretty ignorant (IMHO).

There are channels that you can take to try and invoke change in the law; being a potential witness to 20 minutes before a gruesome death isn't the approach I'd choose. FTR, to be admitted to bars here they scan your drivers license and can contact you after-the-fact.

Be that as it may, said bar violated the trust between themselves and PapaSmurff. They failed to live up to the license they hold, and that can't be taken glibly. Regardless of the drunk driving risk, there are a ton of other risks (such as a drunk person walking home and falling into a river and drowning... true story). There is also context; if a health inspector student saw some nasty kitchen at a resteraunt they were eating at and called in the inspectors after his comments were ignored by the staff and management, how is that bad? This is the same thing, except it's a hot topic cux some people get crazy about their drinky-drink.

PapaSmurff, integrity is when you do what's right, even if no one else is looking. thumbsup
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 12:14:52 AM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2008, 12:16:58 AM »

Not a jerk. 
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« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2008, 12:30:58 AM »

Quote from: USMC Kato on April 06, 2008, 12:16:58 AM

Not a jerk. 

 thumbsup
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« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2008, 12:37:08 AM »

Not a jerk I wonder how the myob people in here would feel if one of those underage drinkers killed a loved one or someone they knew that night.
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« Reply #69 on: April 06, 2008, 03:28:16 AM »

Quote from: Blackadar on April 05, 2008, 12:30:52 PM

Sorry, I don't see this as "integrity", nor is my post a red herring.  I see calling the cops because a couple of teens were having a good time and hurting no one as being a self-righteous asshole.

Until one of them got behind the wheel of a car and killed someone. Just because it might not have happened this time doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. He might have saved someone's life. He might not have. If he walked away he definitely would not have. So if I get to choose between maybe saving a life and definitely not doing so, I'll go with maybe. Thankfully that's not just me.
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« Reply #70 on: April 06, 2008, 03:51:12 AM »

Why is everyone assuming the underage drinkers were going to get behind the wheel?

Does the jerk factor change  if one of the 17 year olds was a DD?
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EddieA
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« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2008, 05:37:13 AM »

The restaurant was being dangerously irresponsible, and you did what you could to stop them.  Good for you.  You stuck your neck out to do the right thing, and hopefully the police intervention was enough to get them to be more responsible in the future.
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Lee
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« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2008, 06:10:08 AM »

Quote from: Exodor on April 06, 2008, 03:51:12 AM

Why is everyone assuming the underage drinkers were going to get behind the wheel?

Does the jerk factor change  if one of the 17 year olds was a DD?

Yeah people are assuming a lot.

Edited to be less smart-assy. smile
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 06:23:02 AM by Lee » Logged
EddieA
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« Reply #73 on: April 06, 2008, 06:24:36 AM »

17 is a junior in high school, not a college student.
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Semaj
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« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2008, 07:03:49 AM »

I was 17 in college, I could have been 16.  I'm probably less responsible now than I was then.

And lets go over the facts:

1) He hasn't said how much they were drinking, he sat down and they ordered a round, not 15.
2) he never said they all were drinking, just he knew some underage kids were served
3) No one said they were drunk or planning on driving.
4) He didn't hear any conversations they had with the staff, perhaps they all had id's, or had been in enough to be proofed multiple times before.
5) He never mentioned what "stuff" he had gone through with some of them, did any of it leave a bitter taste in his mouth?
6) He said: They came up, ordered a round, got it.  He complained, the manager talked to the staff, accepted their answer and that was that.  So he called the cops.

There are a lot of variables we don't know.  However, if you have seen another crime and not reported it immediately, what does that say?  Say you see someone on their cell phone in a car, do you call in their license plate?  Or someone who runs a red light?  Or someone who eats the bulk food from the supermarket?  When a crime is committed, do you ignore it?  Have you ever bumped someones car, saw no damage and driven off?  Have you ever lifted a pack of gum and not turned yourself in for it?

Some say he has integrity, but the question is, how come this particular instance was it suddenly more important to call the cops and turn someone in than anything else he has seen?  What about if there was 3 hammered executives at the bar?  Did he watch to make sure none of them drove?  If you don't turn in anyone you know who has given their kid a beer, friend or not, it makes you a hypocrite.  I am not trying to dog on this guy, I am dogging on all of you who are throwing words into his mouth, claiming these kids were drunk drivers.  Claiming they were breaking laws and needed to be punished while ignoring the fact you may have downloaded music illegally and not paid for it.  "But its ok in that case".

Laws are made to protect people, this law was made because kids really shouldn't drink.  But the question remains, at what age are you not a kid anymore?  At 18, you aren't.  If it wasn't for the fact a bunch of bitter and angry old people decided that you are not mature enough to drink, but you are sure enough mature enough to vote for them back into office or enlist in the army, this wouldn't be a real problem.  Hang out at a bar around a military base, I bet you 18-20 year olds drink with regularity with a military ID.  Is it illegal?  Yes.  Does anyone really care?  No.  You fight for our country, you die for our country, you sure as hell better be able to go to a bar and have a drink.

In this case he _might_ be right.  But he isn't standing up for morals and integrity.  Too many unknown factors to decide.  Now if the kids are notorious for getting drunk and riving, he's a patron saint.  He's protecting the lives of all those around him.  But not once did he ever say he feared for others well beings.  He was mad because some underage kids got served.  He reported them and nothing was done, thats why he called the cops.  I don't know what it means, I wasn't there, i dont know the whole situation.  And neither were most of you.

*edited to spellcheck*
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 07:06:00 AM by Semaj » Logged

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Lee
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« Reply #75 on: April 06, 2008, 07:18:27 AM »

Excellent post Semaj, especially your 6 points. We really need to know a lot more than we do, but from some of the posts here I get the idea a lot of people are non-drinkers and think alcohol is the root of all evil so there is no excuse ever.

One correction, underage drinking is a huge no-no in the military. From what I hear while it does happen in the dorms sometimes, most of them are smart enough not to do on base or any where someone who would know them would see them (I would be legally bound to report them if I saw for instance). The ironic thing is that at a lot of overseas locations they can drink at 18, but when they come home to the States the law is 21 again. Just shows how silly the law is.
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« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2008, 07:21:34 AM »

I guess it really comes down to how a person views underage drinking in a business.  It's clear some people thiink it's a minor offense at worse.  As I noted in my earlier post, I'm looking at it from the business point of view, and I think the OP is as well.  From that perspective, he did what was right.  While I've never called to cops in similar situations (i.e. seeing someone commit a crime in a business), I have pointed it out to the managers on duty and I've also been a manager who has had such things reported to me.  Management should take it seriously, and be prepared to be able to back-up whatever decision they make.  As the OP points out, this is the career he is going to be pursuing and being anal about such things is a good fit for that career.  I'm not sure any of that means he has an equal responsiblity to report every minor crime he sees.  As I said, it all depends on how you view underage drinking.  

At the same time, I don't see how the drunk driving thing really factors in here.  The OP has never inidicated it was a factor, but obviously it is an example of what can happen when people drink.  And part of the reason we have drinking age laws is because younger people are less resposible in their drinking than older people are.  Whether those laws are fair or not is not really the issue.  I happen to think the drinking age should be lower, but that doesn't mean I'm going to look the other way if I see it being broken in a public place or in a way that appears threatening to others.

  



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Semaj
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« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2008, 09:20:11 AM »

Quote from: Lee on April 06, 2008, 07:18:27 AM

Excellent post Semaj, especially your 6 points. We really need to know a lot more than we do, but from some of the posts here I get the idea a lot of people are non-drinkers and think alcohol is the root of all evil so there is no excuse ever.

Some of my friends are in the military and they talked about how they would hit the bars and no one ever turned them away with a military ID.

I am a drinker and I think alcohol is the root of all evil... In moderation its fine, but in excess its probably one of the dumbest things you can submit yourself to.
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EddieA
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« Reply #78 on: April 06, 2008, 10:27:20 AM »

Whether or not they were going to drive, what people think the drinking age should be, and whether or not papasmurff has ever illegally downloaded music are irrelevant.  The restaurant was committing an illegal, reckless, and potentially dangerous act.  The issue is the restaurant's irresponsibility in not enforcing the law.
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« Reply #79 on: April 06, 2008, 10:32:19 AM »

Quote from: EddieA on April 06, 2008, 10:27:20 AM

The restaurant was committing an illegal, reckless, and potentially dangerous act.  The issue is the restaurant's irresponsibility in not enforcing the law.

Let's not be over dramatic. A 20 year old drinking is reckless and potentially dangerous? How so more than a 21 year old? Without making assumptions this time. The OP doesn't state he called the cops because he was scared they were going to drive.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2008, 10:39:07 AM by Lee » Logged
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