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Author Topic: Updated 32 dead at Virginia tech shooting  (Read 5525 times)
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gameoverman
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« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2007, 06:50:58 PM »

The two things that stick out in my mind about this incident:

1.  With two pistols that guy managed that many kills?!?!   Jebus.   I guess he had some kind of unholy accuracy, because unless he's getting headshots on everyone, he's going to have to stop to reload many times.   Meaning people should have had time to escape and/or tackle him.   Wouldn't people be running away in panic, not to mention rushing him when they see he can't shoot anymore(especially if they can't run away)?   What happened to fight or flight?   TWO armed guys in Columbine couldn't manage half the kills this guy did all by himself, what factors made this possible?

2.  The 2 hour gap between killings with no warnings from the school.   I realize that they didn't know exactly what was going on, but c'mon!   This reminds me of one thing about Lost that pisses me off- no one ever tells anyone else when something important happens. I guess it happens in real life too.   

I gotta figure that getting an immediate 'heads up' warning out to as many people as you can, even if it's just a "two people have been shot on campus today, be aware" basic message, MUST be a priority.   I'm not saying shut down the school, even if I was in charge I don't think I would have gone that far, but with today's tech of cell phones and mass emails I can't believe a huge chunk of people couldn't have been informed and asked to spread the news early on.

How many lives could have been saved if those students were already edgy and alerted to weird shiat happening that day before the second round of gunfire started?    We'll never know.  Some might say "well, it would have been impossible to warn that many thousands of people", yeah so that means don't even try to warn any?  I don't get it.    I just don't understand the mentality of "I'll just sit on this information for a while, until I decide it's time to tell others",  as soon as you know something, SHARE IT, jeez!
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« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2007, 06:55:16 PM »

I don't know.  It's a horrible tragedy, and I don't want to second-guess the school officials until all the facts are in.  It's sometimes better to not put out any information than to put out inaccurate information.
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« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2007, 07:00:55 PM »

Quote from: gameoverman on April 17, 2007, 06:50:58 PM

1.  With two pistols that guy managed that many kills?!?!   Jebus.   I guess he had some kind of unholy accuracy, because unless he's getting headshots on everyone, he's going to have to stop to reload many times.   Meaning people should have had time to escape and/or tackle him.   Wouldn't people be running away in panic, not to mention rushing him when they see he can't shoot anymore(especially if they can't run away)?   What happened to fight or flight?   TWO armed guys in Columbine couldn't manage half the kills this guy did all by himself, what factors made this possible?
If the reports of a 9mm and .22 pistol are correct, it makes it even more odd to me.
But we really can't know what happened right now, as facts are still being collected.
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« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2007, 07:14:08 PM »

Quote from: Eduardo X on April 17, 2007, 07:00:55 PM

Quote from: gameoverman on April 17, 2007, 06:50:58 PM

1.  With two pistols that guy managed that many kills?!?!   Jebus.   I guess he had some kind of unholy accuracy, because unless he's getting headshots on everyone, he's going to have to stop to reload many times.   Meaning people should have had time to escape and/or tackle him.   Wouldn't people be running away in panic, not to mention rushing him when they see he can't shoot anymore(especially if they can't run away)?   What happened to fight or flight?   TWO armed guys in Columbine couldn't manage half the kills this guy did all by himself, what factors made this possible?
If the reports of a 9mm and .22 pistol are correct, it makes it even more odd to me.


Nothing odd about it at all, really.

I found this floating along in one of the internet tubes today:

Quote
A wise man told me this morning that a sheepdog without a gun is still a sheepdog at heart.

There were very few sheepdogs in the classroom or in positions of administrative power at the VA Tech.

This shooter had to reload several times, yet no one individual tried to stop him during these moments. No one even threw books or laptop computers at him to disrupt his plan. No one rushed him to knock him down or disarm him.

One sheepdog, god bless him, the 79 yr. old professor who had survived Auchsweitz (sp?), put his life before his students and blocked the door as this student/sociopath shot through the door inflicting lethal wounds to this brave man. His actions gave the extra moments for some of his students to escape through windows.

Another student, along with others, blocked a classroom door to keep the shooter from returning, but only after the professor had been shot point blank in the head and enough other students shot for the shooter to reload "several" times, according to the student who witnessed the event.

The first tool is the mind. Very few of the University community who fell victim contemplated that something bad could happen to them and how to react to survive if it did. It is sadly ironic in an envirionment where the brain is to be actively engaged the ability to think and immediately act is a skill discouraged.

I won't argue with you that had a student or professor had a CCW tool and the skill level to use it that the number of lives lost may have been fewer. However, even without a gun, there was much that could have been done to intervene but was not.

Some were like domestic turkeys in the rain, too dumb-founded to even "bleat and retreat" as SWWISE put it.

Take religion out of the schools, fine; but, at least learn from the theory of Darwinism that the most able to adapt (in this case think and act) are those that survive or those willing to take the actions for others to survive.

God bless that professor's soul whom acted so selflessly that his naive flock of students could have the critical moments to retreat.

-showmegal

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« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2007, 07:14:25 PM »

Quote from: gameoverman on April 17, 2007, 06:50:58 PM

The two things that stick out in my mind about this incident:

1.  With two pistols that guy managed that many kills?!?!   Jebus.   I guess he had some kind of unholy accuracy, because unless he's getting headshots on everyone, he's going to have to stop to reload many times.   Meaning people should have had time to escape and/or tackle him.   Wouldn't people be running away in panic, not to mention rushing him when they see he can't shoot anymore(especially if they can't run away)?   What happened to fight or flight?   TWO armed guys in Columbine couldn't manage half the kills this guy did all by himself, what factors made this possible?

As much as we would all like to think that we would be brave and try and tackle him and wrestle the pistols away, I think the reality is that most will be in such shock and fear that self preservation is more along the lines of dive onto the floor if anything. 

Evidently he chained off the entrance and exits to the building so people were pretty trapped.  And it wasn't an open space- in a second or third floor classroom when someone with a gun controls the entrance to the room there isn't anywhere to go.  It's really going to be like fish in a barrel when you have a room packed full of anywhere from 20-60 or more students. 

I don't know what the layout of Columbine was like but if it's like most High Schools I've been too, it's more expansive horizontally than vertically which allows for much more opportunities for people to escape and hide.  Especially if it's only one story since jumping out a window is a much more viable and safe option.  I'm very familiar with Norris Hall, however, and those same opportunities for escape just aren't there. 
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2007, 07:33:28 PM »


Quote
A wise man told me this morning that a sheepdog without a gun is still a sheepdog at heart.

There were very few sheepdogs in the classroom or in positions of administrative power at the VA Tech.

This shooter had to reload several times, yet no one individual tried to stop him during these moments. No one even threw books or laptop computers at him to disrupt his plan. No one rushed him to knock him down or disarm him.

One sheepdog, god bless him, the 79 yr. old professor who had survived Auchsweitz (sp?), put his life before his students and blocked the door as this student/sociopath shot through the door inflicting lethal wounds to this brave man. His actions gave the extra moments for some of his students to escape through windows.

Another student, along with others, blocked a classroom door to keep the shooter from returning, but only after the professor had been shot point blank in the head and enough other students shot for the shooter to reload "several" times, according to the student who witnessed the event.

The first tool is the mind. Very few of the University community who fell victim contemplated that something bad could happen to them and how to react to survive if it did. It is sadly ironic in an envirionment where the brain is to be actively engaged the ability to think and immediately act is a skill discouraged.

I won't argue with you that had a student or professor had a CCW tool and the skill level to use it that the number of lives lost may have been fewer. However, even without a gun, there was much that could have been done to intervene but was not.

Some were like domestic turkeys in the rain, too dumb-founded to even "bleat and retreat" as SWWISE put it.

Take religion out of the schools, fine; but, at least learn from the theory of Darwinism that the most able to adapt (in this case think and act) are those that survive or those willing to take the actions for others to survive.

God bless that professor's soul whom acted so selflessly that his naive flock of students could have the critical moments to retreat.

-showmegal
I wouldn't want to characterize the students as fish in a barrel. It can't be anything but terrifying to be shot at like this, and any reaction save joining in is totally justified and understandable.

But the actions of the professor are extremely brave, and I hope he's nationally recognized as a hero.
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« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2007, 08:46:58 PM »

I'm not blaming the victims, I'm just wondering about the psychology.

Remember after 9-11 everyone saying how such a thing wouldn't happen again because people would fight back now, since they know they'd just get killed anyways?   That didn't seem to happen here.   In fact the exact opposite happened apparently, people mostly just laid down and hoped for the best.

So, after Columbine, after 9-11, after the Amish school shooting/etc, psychologically nothing is different.   Lots of people will still sit or lay quietly, hoping that somehow they will be overlooked by the killer, even as the killer is shooting people one by one in the same room.   I find that interesting, that's all.

As far as not putting out inaccurate information, well you have two dead bodies for sure right?  So they can ACCURATELY notify everyone that they have two dead bodies in the dorms...and that everyone should be aware that this is an ongoing investigation(meaning of course, it might not be over).    And that's assuming that the bodies didn't show signs of anything, such as gunshots, that would suggest foul play.  If murder was suspected(as opposed to let's say a drug overdose), it's even more critical to let everyone know.

Then again, if damage control and public relations(maintaining your image) were the priority, I could understand the delay.   In that case, you'd want to assemble your team and go over possible strategies for the best spin before you say anything.   But I'm admittedly cynical, so I tend to think that way at first.
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« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2007, 09:01:47 PM »

Quote from: gameoverman on April 17, 2007, 08:46:58 PM

Remember after 9-11 everyone saying how such a thing wouldn't happen again because people would fight back now, since they know they'd just get killed anyways?   That didn't seem to happen here.   In fact the exact opposite happened apparently, people mostly just laid down and hoped for the best.

9/11 was different.  9/11 demonstrated that in a hostage situation on an airplane there really isn't any choice since you are going to die anyway.  Plane crashes your dead.  In something like what happened at Tech there is still a chance that you might survive for a variety of reasons so anything you can do do *not* be a target increases your chance of survival. 
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« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2007, 09:06:12 PM »

The Smoking Gun has a one-man play he wrote for his creative writing class.  Be warned - there's language in there.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

If I were a teacher, after reading this I wouldn't have just referred him to a school counselor, I would have insisted & forced him.

*Edit* And a second play:

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 09:08:57 PM by depward » Logged

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« Reply #89 on: April 17, 2007, 09:11:05 PM »

Quote from: depward on April 17, 2007, 09:06:12 PM

The Smoking Gun has a one-man play he wrote for his creative writing class.  Be warned - there's language in there.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

If I were a teacher, after reading this I wouldn't have just referred him to a school counselor, I would have insisted & forced him.

*Edit* And a second play:

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001

The warning signs are always there. I just wish people would start listening to them.
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« Reply #90 on: April 17, 2007, 09:15:12 PM »

Quote from: Samurai on April 17, 2007, 09:11:05 PM

Quote from: depward on April 17, 2007, 09:06:12 PM

The Smoking Gun has a one-man play he wrote for his creative writing class.  Be warned - there's language in there.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

If I were a teacher, after reading this I wouldn't have just referred him to a school counselor, I would have insisted & forced him.

*Edit* And a second play:

http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/mr-brownstone-title-page/20070417141309990001

The warning signs are always there. I just wish people would start listening to them.
He was referred to a school counselor or psychologist.
The AP story, if you still trust them after their beautiful quote from Bush's spokesperson.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 09:17:03 PM by Eduardo X » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2007, 12:22:02 AM »

There are two pretty amazing things about this ordeal. 

One is that, by way of comparison, two VT massacres happen every day in Iraq (more if you want to add in victims of crime; one estimate places the total deaths per day in Iraq around 500).

Another is really scary, and really sad: the victim's bodies are hardly even cold, and already the chickenhawks are beating their chests and saying how manly they would have been over there (I know nobody here is expressing that opinion, so please don't anyone take the statement the wrong way).

I have to agree, however- in hindsight there appears to have been a great many warning signs about how disturbed this guy was.  But that always seems to be the case: hindsight sees everything.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2007, 12:29:59 AM by unbreakable » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2007, 01:30:48 AM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 18, 2007, 12:22:02 AM

There are two pretty amazing things about this ordeal. 

One is that, by way of comparison, two VT massacres happen every day in Iraq (more if you want to add in victims of crime; one estimate places the total deaths per day in Iraq around 500).

Another is really scary, and really sad: the victim's bodies are hardly even cold, and already the chickenhawks are beating their chests and saying how manly they would have been over there (I know nobody here is expressing that opinion, so please don't anyone take the statement the wrong way).

I have to agree, however- in hindsight there appears to have been a great many warning signs about how disturbed this guy was.  But that always seems to be the case: hindsight sees everything.

Give me a break.     This post angers me so much that I'll stop here.
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« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2007, 05:18:24 AM »

Well I'll disconnect from the conversation as well, then.  I didn't join the discussion to piss anyone off.
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« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2007, 01:20:01 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on April 18, 2007, 05:18:24 AM

Well I'll disconnect from the conversation as well, then.  I didn't join the discussion to piss anyone off.

Ok I must have been in a foul mood last night.   I'm not as angered this morning.   I do disagree completely though.   How's that?  Tongue smile
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« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2007, 01:37:41 PM »

I'm not sure I understand the anger at the blog. It's a valid question. ANd it's valid to state that absent the circumstance we can claim to have done any number of things.

But it is interesting that no one attempted to intercede.

On a completely different note, I'm flabberghasted at the loss to humanity in this conflict.  I came to a realization after this that has eluded me even in the wake of 9/11.

Take for example that one prof who was considered one of the top five biomedical researchers in teh country.  He was working something to do with CP.  Perhaps hundreds or thousands of people are impacted by his death indirectly because of the research that's no longer being done him.

Then there's the Holocaust survivor. Recognized to the hilt in his profession. Also, there was the Professor who won award after award for his teaching.

All that wiped out in a flash.  Not to mention the students. All that potential gone.

The power of impact that even one person has is beyond comprehension. 
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« Reply #96 on: April 18, 2007, 01:41:09 PM »

Quote from: depward on April 17, 2007, 09:06:12 PM

The Smoking Gun has a one-man play he wrote for his creative writing class.  Be warned - there's language in there.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

Wow.  That is fucked up.
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« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2007, 01:49:45 PM »

We've boycotted news in this house until the media frenzy ends.. How many times do we have to see the same thing?  This nonsense has the same path: Shock, Awe, examination, blame, retribution..  Same cycle, different tragedy.. The gun control nuts will come out of the woodwork, the pro gun freaks will come out of the woodwork.  Laws will be passed, security tightened, and in the end, nothing will change other than money changing hands for nothing.  So why bother listing and watching the nonsense unfold?  We look like idiots..

Secondly, something is wrong when a fruitcake can walk into a store and walk out with 500 rounds of ammunition and a 9mm.  Spare me the second amendment arguments and our need for guns to protect us from an oppressive government. I am not simplistic enough to think our little handguns offer us anything more than a placebo when faced with a government that has unspeakable weapons and power.   Do you really think they'd give a shit about our handguns when they can just chem-spray us, or toss some viruses into a spinach patch and wipe us out?  Lets be realistic here, the guns are useless, and we're being manipulated to use them on ourselves like simpletons under the guise that we need them to fight tyranny.

Hundreds of people die everyday in Iraq, this event shouldn't be much more shocking than that.  Hundreds of years ago Vikings would roll up to a village and wipe out 50-60 people with axes and clubs.  That must have been shocking too.  If you seek reasons you won't find them, people do stupid shit and when you give people access to more powerful methods of taking life, the stupid shit they do is magnified.
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« Reply #98 on: April 18, 2007, 02:02:22 PM »

Why is this thread now about politics and gun control? For the love of jebus just let us think about the victims and the tragedy. Make use of the Post New Topic button.
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« Reply #99 on: April 18, 2007, 02:08:35 PM »

I'd say start a new thread about gun control, as it is a topic worthy of debate.
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« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2007, 02:32:03 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on April 17, 2007, 07:14:25 PM



As much as we would all like to think that we would be brave and try and tackle him and wrestle the pistols away, I think the reality is that most will be in such shock and fear that self preservation is more along the lines of dive onto the floor if anything. 




I don't think of it in terms of bravery or being a hero. It just surprises me that no one got scared enough to jump the guy. I understand that a maniac coming into your classroom shooting is going to be shocking, and I'm not surprised that the first reaction is to run away as far as possible (that would be my reaction as well). But at some point as you're trapped at the back of the classroom and some of your fellow clasmates are dying around you, and the guy is reloading... well I'm just surprised that no one turned on him out of fear at that point. Of course, maybe some did, we just haven't heard about it yet.
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« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2007, 02:39:42 PM »

Quote from: Poleaxe on April 18, 2007, 02:32:03 PM

I'm just surprised that no one turned on him out of fear at that point. Of course, maybe some did, we just haven't heard about it yet.

Very possible.  People seem to be treating it as fact that if just one or two people had the gumption to tackle the guy then it would have ended much sooner but there is absolutely no guarantee that it would have worked.  Some of the survivors have stated that they played dead and that strikes me as a much more likely for success than rushing him. 
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« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2007, 02:51:27 PM »

Quote from: Eduardo X on April 18, 2007, 02:08:35 PM

I'd say start a new thread about gun control, as it is a topic worthy of debate.

I say we don't. That won't be pretty. icon_lol
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« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2007, 03:31:32 PM »

Quote from: msduncan on April 18, 2007, 01:20:01 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on April 18, 2007, 05:18:24 AM

Well I'll disconnect from the conversation as well, then.  I didn't join the discussion to piss anyone off.

Ok I must have been in a foul mood last night.   I'm not as angered this morning.   I do disagree completely though.   How's that?  Tongue smile

In that case, do you mind if I ask what point you objected to?


Quote from: unbreakable on April 18, 2007, 12:22:02 AM

There are two pretty amazing things about this ordeal. 

One is that, by way of comparison, two VT massacres happen every day in Iraq (more if you want to add in victims of crime; one estimate places the total deaths per day in Iraq around 500).

Another is really scary, and really sad: the victim's bodies are hardly even cold, and already the chickenhawks are beating their chests and saying how manly they would have been over there (I know nobody here is expressing that opinion, so please don't anyone take the statement the wrong way).

I have to agree, however- in hindsight there appears to have been a great many warning signs about how disturbed this guy was.  But that always seems to be the case: hindsight sees everything.


There were three things I mentioned.  The first point was using one tragedy as a benchmark for another tragedy (VT compared to Iraq).  The second was disgust at some guy pounding his chest and proclaiming his powerful, manly virility to these internets from behind the warm, comfy safety of his keyboard.  And the third was simply regret that nobody did anything about this guy before he snapped.

You aren't disagreeing with all of that, are you?  At the least, the last one seems the least objectionable.
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« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2007, 01:21:08 AM »

And this just in via the BBC News:

Quote
Virginia gunman sent final video

The student who shot dead at least 30 people at Virginia Tech sent a package to the US TV network NBC News on the day of the shootings, police said.

The package contained "disturbing" photographs, video and writings, NBC said, posted from the college campus between the two rounds of killings.

Cho Seung-hui is shown pointing guns at the camera, and ranting angrily.

A total of 33 people, including the gunman himself, died in shootings at two locations on Monday.

"You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today," the 23-year-old gunman said angrily, in an excerpt shown on NBC Nightly News.

Jesus.

And according to the article, the package was sent during the 2 hour block between shootings.
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