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Author Topic: UFC 121: Lesnar vs. Velasquez  (Read 1168 times)
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ATB
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« on: October 19, 2010, 05:44:03 PM »

I always get excited when the heavies headline.

I personally think Cain Velasquez is overrated and that Lesnar is going to absolutely maul him.

The other huge fight is Shields v Kampmann.  I'm excited to see how Shields does in his UFC debut.
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Jumangi
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2010, 02:50:34 AM »

I don't. While I give credit to Lesner for taking the hits from Carwin he was seriously exposed as a weak striker technically. I believe if Cain has an opening he will finish Lesner and not gas himself out.
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pr0ner
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2010, 03:23:07 AM »

Quote from: Jumangi on October 20, 2010, 02:50:34 AM

I don't. While I give credit to Lesner for taking the hits from Carwin he was seriously exposed as a weak striker technically. I believe if Cain has an opening he will finish Lesner and not gas himself out.

First, it's Lesnar, not Lesner.

Second, Velasquez will not finish Lesnar.  No way.
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gellar
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2010, 03:59:11 AM »

Yeah I am pretty goddamn sure Lesnar is unbeatable at this point.  If Carwin wasn't able to knock him the fuck out, who the hell can?

The only way Lesnar gets taken out is the way Mir did it - supremely good/lucky jujitsu.  I can't seem him losing in a striking or wrestling battle.
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WarPig
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2010, 02:14:50 PM »

I have dreams of a lighter (still) heavyweight climbing on Lesnar's back and choking him out ala Cary Elwes to Andre the Giant in The Princess Bride.  Lesnar is a beast, but still kind of a pro-wrestling cocky prick, IMO.  I just don't like him, and I know there are those who agree with me.

There is also a fight between Tito Ortiz and Matt "The Hammer" Hamill.  Matt is deaf, but an amazing fighter despite not being able to hear his coaching.  Einsteinium coined the nickname "Deaf Jedi" for him.  I'm looking forward to that fight as well.
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2010, 03:43:15 PM »

Quote from: WarPig on October 20, 2010, 02:14:50 PM

I have dreams of a lighter (still) heavyweight climbing on Lesnar's back and choking him out ala Cary Elwes to Andre the Giant in The Princess Bride.  Lesnar is a beast, but still kind of a pro-wrestling cocky prick, IMO.  I just don't like him, and I know there are those who agree with me.

There is also a fight between Tito Ortiz and Matt "The Hammer" Hamill.  Matt is deaf, but an amazing fighter despite not being able to hear his coaching.  Einsteinium coined the nickname "Deaf Jedi" for him.  I'm looking forward to that fight as well.

True story: When I was in High School Matt Hammil lived in the next town over and our wrestling team went up against his several times. The very first time our guy wrestled him our guy was getting beaten so badly that he tried to run off of the mat to get away from him. Matt grabbed his foot as he was trying to run, drug him to the middle of the mat and pinned him. It was the funniest thing I have seen in all my years of amateur wrestling.

Needless to say our guy never wrestled Matt again. The guy was a beast.
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Abaddon
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« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2010, 06:30:23 AM »

I know it's crazy to say about a guy 235 lbs but Velasquez isnt big enough to beat Lesnar IMHO. I'm definitely not a fan of Lesnar but as already stated if Shane Carwin at 12-0 with all knockouts couldnt beat down Lesnar I really can't think of anyone in the UFC who can at this point. The simple fact is most knockouts occur when the head is quickly snapped from it's position causing an attack on the brain stem. Lesnars neck and shoulders are so thick it's going to take a significant force to knock him out in the traditional manner. IMHO Emelianenko has the best chance against Lensar based on his simply incredible ability as a fighter. I think Fedor has the skills to counter Lesnar's sheer size but I doubt we will ever see that fight.
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Kurt Stevens
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« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2010, 03:17:51 PM »

Quote from: Abaddon on October 21, 2010, 06:30:23 AM

I know it's crazy to say about a guy 235 lbs but Velasquez isnt big enough to beat Lesnar IMHO. I'm definitely not a fan of Lesnar but as already stated if Shane Carwin at 12-0 with all knockouts couldnt beat down Lesnar I really can't think of anyone in the UFC who can at this point. The simple fact is most knockouts occur when the head is quickly snapped from it's position causing an attack on the brain stem. Lesnars neck and shoulders are so thick it's going to take a significant force to knock him out in the traditional manner. IMHO Emelianenko has the best chance against Lensar based on his simply incredible ability as a fighter. I think Fedor has the skills to counter Lesnar's sheer size but I doubt we will ever see that fight.

I agree.  I don't think Lesnar gets knocked out by anyone in the UFC at this point.  I think the only chance would be a submission like Mir put on him.   I watched part of the weigh in and the size difference between Lesnar and Velasquez was huge. My fear is that if there is a Fedor/Lesnar fight that it may come to late in Fedor's career for him to beat him.  It may already be too late.
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Kurt Stevens
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2010, 04:24:20 AM »

And I was soooooooo wrong......   icon_biggrin
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pr0ner
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2010, 04:25:14 AM »

Holy crap!
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leo8877
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2010, 04:29:33 AM »

LOL did Lesnar lose?
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stimpy
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« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2010, 04:31:20 AM »

Yea.......but I must have missed the phantom punch that hurt him and knocked him down.

I kinda smell hype for a rematch.......
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theohall
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« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2010, 04:49:29 AM »

Quote from: pr0ner on October 20, 2010, 03:23:07 AM

Quote from: Jumangi on October 20, 2010, 02:50:34 AM

I don't. While I give credit to Lesner for taking the hits from Carwin he was seriously exposed as a weak striker technically. I believe if Cain has an opening he will finish Lesner and not gas himself out.

First, it's Lesnar, not Lesner.

Second, Velasquez will not finish Lesnar.  No way.

A sphincter says what?  smile
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theohall
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« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2010, 04:53:10 AM »

To be fair, I thought Lesnar would win also.  The most popular quote around the bar was...

Quote
Holy shit!
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Jumangi
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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2010, 05:03:54 AM »

Cain overrated?...Lesnar to big to be finished?  Yea....time to eat that crow.
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ATB
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2010, 11:55:24 AM »

This continues to show that I have absolutely no idea how to make picks in MMA.  icon_lol

Velasquez vs JDS is gonna be one heck of a fight.

Quote
.but I must have missed the phantom punch that hurt him and knocked him down.

It was actually a knee right after Velasquez swarmed him with about 5 straight shots.  Combo, then knee, then punch to the back of the head as Brock went down.
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ATB
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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2010, 05:57:03 PM »

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leo8877
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2010, 08:04:22 PM »

I guess there are more dangerous things from Mexico besides Montezuma's Revenge.
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Abaddon
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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2010, 11:20:04 PM »

Well I stand corrected as well. I seriously did not think Velasquez could pull this off especially in this fasion, a submission maybe but a stoppage due to blows.  icon_eek Not to take anything away from Velasquez's victory but I have not seen any of the video yet and have to say I'm wondering if perhaps Herb Dean stepped in a bit too soon? I know different folks can generate different amounts of power and sometimes a smaller person can strike harder then a larger person if they have better body mechanics but again without having seen the actual fight I can't seem to wrap my head around how Velasquez was able to do what Randy Coutre and especially Shane Carwin were unable to do. I know Carwin rocked lesnar with punches once or twice during their match up which is why Im wondering if maybe the Ref during the previous fight was a little more lenient giving Lesnar enough time to cover up, collect himself and recover. Have to say after Silva's fight with Chael Sonnen which when viewing the fight seemed a little hinky, and now this I can't help but wonder if Dana White's playing some subtle games here. Either way congrats to Cain Velasquez and I will reserve further comments/judgements till I see the actual fight. In the meantime I will just join the banquet of crow. Line forms on the right?
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disarm
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« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2010, 11:31:43 PM »

Quote from: Abaddon on October 24, 2010, 11:20:04 PM

Not to take anything away from Velasquez's victory but I have not seen any of the video yet and have to say I'm wondering if perhaps Herb Dean stepped in a bit too soon?

i haven't found any video of the complete fight yet, but i think these highlights show pretty well that Lesnar was in trouble when the fight was called...
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 11:34:34 PM by disarm » Logged

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ATB
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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2010, 11:48:26 PM »

There are sights that have the full fight. They usually have all full fights within 24 hrs.

This fight was up this morning.  Sometimes they get taken down so hurry!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 01:50:52 PM by ATB » Logged
ATB
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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2010, 11:49:27 PM »

It was definitely not an early stoppage.

Lesnar was doing nothing and did not respond to repeated commands from the ref to actively defend himself.

Also, Herb Dean is one of the best in the biz with regard to reffing...
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Kurt Stevens
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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2010, 12:04:20 AM »

Lesnar was in trouble when the fight was stopped.  He had stopped defending himself and had just covered up.  Plus he was bleeding from a pretty deep looking gash under his left eye.  If I remember correctly, there was still quite a bit of time left in the round.   Maybe if it had been closer to the bell they would have let it go a little longer.  Lesnar looked pretty off balance at times during the Carwin fight but I thought it was just due to the power and size of Carwin.  It appears that he really just needs a lot of work on his striking.
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« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2010, 02:31:16 AM »

Agreed. Not an early stoppage. I also think the Lesnar/Carwin fight should have been stopped in the first round several times. "Turtling up" is not intelligent defense. I understand the counter-argument is about Lesnar's ability to take damage, but the ref's job is to prevent serious injury and to ensure that both fighters are intelligently defending themselves at all times.

Other MMA leagues allow knees to the head when on the ground, so when you went down you got up like the mat was on fire. Part of the reason that you can't just turtle up is the trade-off made to ensure safety requires it.

Herb Dean made a good call, gave Lesnar several opportunities to mount an intelligent defense or take the offensive. I think his stoppage was at a good point.

Josh Rosenthal (Carwin/Lesnar fight ref) makes me worried for the sport. All we need is one serious injury or death and that may kill the sport as a whole. Which would be sad, IMHO.
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disarm
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« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2010, 02:47:40 AM »

Quote from: ATB on October 24, 2010, 11:48:26 PM

link removed

Has the full fight. They usually have all full fights within 24 hrs.

thanks for the link...definitely shows that Lesnar was given plenty of opportunity to recover but failed to pull himself back together.  there's no question that Velasquez deserved to win that fight.

FYI: if you're watching that video, you can skip straight to the midpoint for the beginning of the fight...first eleven minutes are nothing but fluff and introductions
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 04:02:23 PM by naednek » Logged

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Abaddon
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« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2010, 07:26:21 PM »

Thanks for the responses. Glad to hear it was a clean win. I agree Herb Dean is an awesome ref with Big John retired Herb Dean and Mario Yamasaki are the best ref's UFC has at the moment IMHO. Good friend of mine is a fill in ref for the UFC here locally and Rosenthal is at the bottom of the heap in my opinion not to mention word is he's an ass. So basically in Lesnar's past two fights he found himself in trouble due to blows, Im curious now if the Carwin/Lesnar fight would have gone differently had there been a different ref in the ring. Two similiar situations with two different refs and two different outcomes.... I know Dana White always says "Never let it go to the judges" and I agree but now it seems there's grounds for a good debate on how much of a fight comes down to good or bad ref-ing.
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Jumangi
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« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2010, 02:23:47 PM »

"Big John" McCarthy isn't retired anymore. In fact he worked a couple of the fights at UFC 121.
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