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Author Topic: TSA perfects the "art" of zero tolerance.  (Read 4767 times)
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Caine
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« on: January 09, 2008, 09:10:44 PM »

we all know what kind of people are on the do not fly list, but what happens when someone obviously isn't that person?  well, we treat them as if they are until we can prove without a sliver of a doubt that it isn't them.  no exceptions, not even when the person in question is 5. 

link video

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Quote
A 5-year-old boy was detained as "security risk" because he had the same name of someone on the TSA "No-Fly" list. The TSA had to conduct a full search of their persons and belongings. When his mother went to pick him up and hug him and comfort him during the proceedings, she was told not to touch him because he was a national security risk. They also had to frisk her again to make sure the little Dillinger hadn't passed anything dangerous weapons or materials to his mother when she hugged him.

and to think, this happened in my hometown.  i guess they had to be sure he wasn't smuggling in any dangerous juiceboxes.  :rollseyes
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Lee
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2008, 09:23:14 PM »

Good, I am glad they did their jobs. These groups use kids quite often.
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 09:30:22 PM »

I feel less safe with the TSA than without them. 
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2008, 09:34:15 PM »

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2008, 09:23:14 PM

Good, I am glad they did their jobs. These groups use kids quite often.
You would feel the same way if it was your kid. Absolutely. For sure.
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« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2008, 09:39:38 PM »

The TSA barely improves airport security anyway. They only provide the illusion of security.

Someday there will be a 60 minutes special on just how insecure our airports actually still are. It's just a matter of time.
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Lee
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2008, 09:40:55 PM »

Quote from: Calvin on January 09, 2008, 09:34:15 PM

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2008, 09:23:14 PM

Good, I am glad they did their jobs. These groups use kids quite often.
You would feel the same way if it was your kid. Absolutely. For sure.

No, as a white guy I wouldn't, but profiling works. I have been picked out by the TSA because I am military, and the inconvenience was minor.

I have watched a few documentaries on the Palestinians, and the use kids to their advantage. Get to them while they are young and use them to your advantage basically. I wouldn't put it past AQ to do the same if it suited them. So I am sorry the family was inconvenienced, but in the end, tough shit.

The TSA is in a no win situation. If they are over protective they get crap, but if one incident gets by them, we would be saying they are worthless.
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« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2008, 09:45:40 PM »

Quote from: Calvin on January 09, 2008, 09:34:15 PM

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2008, 09:23:14 PM

Good, I am glad they did their jobs. These groups use kids quite often.
You would feel the same way if it was your kid. Absolutely. For sure.

lee doesn't have kids.  i don't think he believes in them. 

no fly lists are great and all for catching up with bad guys who look like everyone else, but for F's sake, use it as an extra source of stuff to watch out for, not the absolute source of good guy/bad guy info.  use a little sense here and think about the person who's in front of you.  that's not too hard is it?

oh, and they are worthless.  inquiries have already shown that dangerous materials get through screening.  it happens more than they would like to admit.  meanwhile, every person unfortunately sharing a name with a suspected fill-in-the-blank crime gets pulled out for extra attention. 
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2008, 09:51:34 PM »

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2008, 09:40:55 PM

The TSA is in a no win situation. If they are over protective they get crap, but if one incident gets by them, we would be saying they are worthless.

Well said.

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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2008, 10:50:58 PM »

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When his mother went to pick him up and hug him and comfort him during the proceedings, she was told not to touch him because he was a national security risk.

Goddamn that's sickening.
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2008, 10:55:14 PM »

First comment on the article says it all - the terrorists have won.
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Lee
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« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2008, 11:10:16 PM »

Quote from: noun on January 09, 2008, 10:55:14 PM

First comment on the article says it all - the terrorists have won.

Yep, since we can only bring bottled water on a flight and the occasional person goes through a hassle, they have won. If that is winning, then we really need to consider our lives a little more closely. We are bitching about inconveniences, nothing more.

If a 5 year old was on the do not fly list because he was a son of a major threat, but he was allowed on the flight and something did happen, what would be the result? The TSA has a list, they did their jobs, yeah it sucks that has to go on, but come on, really, the terrorists have won?
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2008, 11:13:04 PM »

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2008, 11:10:16 PM

Quote from: noun on January 09, 2008, 10:55:14 PM

First comment on the article says it all - the terrorists have won.

Yep, since we can only bring bottled water on a flight and the occasional person goes through a hassle, they have won. If that is winning, then we really need to consider our lives a little more closely. We are bitching about inconveniences, nothing more.

No. We are bitching because our nation has become IRRATIONAL due to FEAR. Anyone that thinks some crying 5 year old is a security risk is a fool.

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Mr. Fed
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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2008, 11:15:42 PM »

Well, he was named "Dillinger."  They were probably afraid that he'd use the plan to rob a bank with his moll.  Or rape someone with his 14 inch penis.

I knew a DA -- the most conservative, clean cut guy you ever say -- with the menacing Islamofascist name of "Steve Davis."  That name is on the list.  He plans on an extra two hours at airports.
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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2008, 11:20:06 PM »

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2008, 09:40:55 PM



The TSA is in a no win situation. If they are over protective they get crap, but if one incident gets by them, we would be saying they are worthless.

This may elicit sympathy, but it is not an argument justifying irrational behavior.  Detaining a five year old might hypothetically be rational if there were some hint that the child was accompanying suspected terrorists or there was something suspicious about the child.  That would go to the terrorists-use-children theory.  However, if you have a list of names of terror suspects, detaining a five-year-old because his name is similar to one on the list is irrational, unless the list describes the subject as being three feet high.  Presumably the list has some description of people ("Asian male," "elderly female," etc.)  If it doesn't it's a huge waste of time.
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2008, 11:22:00 PM »

Quote from: noun on January 09, 2008, 11:13:04 PM

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2008, 11:10:16 PM

Quote from: noun on January 09, 2008, 10:55:14 PM

First comment on the article says it all - the terrorists have won.

Yep, since we can only bring bottled water on a flight and the occasional person goes through a hassle, they have won. If that is winning, then we really need to consider our lives a little more closely. We are bitching about inconveniences, nothing more.

No. We are bitching because our nation has become IRRATIONAL due to FEAR. Anyone that thinks some crying 5 year old is a security risk is a fool.



I am a fool then, kids can be used. I watched a tape of Palestinian kids armed with rifles talking about the death of Israel. And even if the kid didn't know any better he could be used. I am not saying this is a great thing, I just can't generate any outrage over it. As I said, the one time something thought to be minor does get through that no one would have thought of, where will the outrage be?

I, and my coworker, were singled out by the TSA and giving a more thorough search because we were told to tell them we were active duty military on orders. I had to wait another 10-20 minutes and had to have my bags searched more thoroughly because of it. I find the story amusing, but I didn't over react about it. They are doing their jobs and if they didn't there would be even more outrage.
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« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2008, 11:25:06 PM »

The original list didn't have any descriptions associated with it.  They're working on a new list.

Sort of related, did you know you can't put spare lithium batteries in your checked bags any more?  Something to think about when packing.
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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2008, 11:28:09 PM »

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2008, 11:22:00 PM

I am a fool then

Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

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I watched a tape of Palestinian kids armed with rifles talking about the death of Israel.

This is relevant how?

Quote
I, and my coworker, were singled out by the TSA and giving a more thorough search because we were told to tell them we were active duty military on orders. I had to wait another 10-20 minutes and had to have my bags searched more thoroughly because of it. I find the story amusing, but I didn't over react about it.

I wonder how you'd react if they were searching your child and preventing you from comforting him.

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They are doing their jobs

What are you basing this on?
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Lee
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« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2008, 11:31:15 PM »

After watching the video (only read the article before), we don't have much information to go by. How long were they detained (they still made their flight)? The mother implies, with a smile, that her son was accused of bing a criminal, but it just sounds like his name was on the list so they searched him and his belongings. He wasn't accused of anything, just had to go through an extra search. This really is a non-story.

They followed their checklists is all, they did their jobs. If it was some reporter trying to test them and he was allowed through there would be the same outrage.
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« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2008, 11:37:08 PM »

Ah, the old "they didn't mind having their liberties irrationally violated, so why should you care?" argument.

I care because a 5 year old showing up on a no-fly list is a big indicator that something is broken. That they searched him anyway is a sign that no one plans on fixing it.
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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2008, 11:39:13 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Fed on January 09, 2008, 11:20:06 PM

Presumably the list has some description of people ("Asian male," "elderly female," etc.)  If it doesn't it's a huge waste of time.

I think it's instructive to remember the case of Alaska Senator Ted Stevens (R) and his wife, Catherine:

Quote
At a hearing of the Senate Commerce Committee, Hawley ran into inquiries from lawmakers with family members or friends who had encountered problems at airport checkpoints.

Among them was Sen. Ted Stevens, R-Alaska, who complained that his wife, Catherine, was being identified as "Cat" Stevens and frequently stopped due to confusion with the former name of the folk singer now known as Yusuf Islam, whose name is on the list.

Bruce Schneier, who uses his big brain to think about security, interviewed Kip Hawley of the TSA and does a good job of elaborating how ridiculous the security provided by the TSA actually is.
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Lee
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« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2008, 11:40:22 PM »

Quote from: noun on January 09, 2008, 11:28:09 PM

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2008, 11:22:00 PM

I am a fool then

Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

Or it's another sign I need to avoid internet forums.

Quote
Quote
I watched a tape of Palestinian kids armed with rifles talking about the death of Israel.

This is relevant how?

Terrorist using/brainwashing kids for their purpose.

Quote
Quote
I, and my coworker, were singled out by the TSA and giving a more thorough search because we were told to tell them we were active duty military on orders. I had to wait another 10-20 minutes and had to have my bags searched more thoroughly because of it. I find the story amusing, but I didn't over react about it.

I wonder how you'd react if they were searching your child and preventing you from comforting him.

As has been said, I don't have kid's so I can't comment. I need more information and the other side of things too. This could have been a 5 minute thing and the kid could have been 5' away from her and not at all upset. Was the research of the mother a 5 second thing just because they were following procedure?

Quote
Quote
They are doing their jobs

What are you basing this on?

Well I would assume when a name is flagged they have a checklist to go on. Saying "Oh, it's just a kid, the list must be wrong, let him through" would not be acceptable and would be a serious breach of security.
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« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2008, 11:42:12 PM »

Quote from: noun on January 09, 2008, 11:37:08 PM

Ah, the old "they didn't mind having their liberties irrationally violated, so why should you care?" argument.

I care because a 5 year old showing up on a no-fly list is a big indicator that something is broken. That they searched him anyway is a sign that no one plans on fixing it.

I am not saying things couldn't be refined, but in all honesty if national security inconveniences a few people a day, I just don't have a problem with it.
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« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2008, 11:43:14 PM »

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2008, 11:40:22 PM




Well I would assume when a name is flagged they have a checklist to go on. Saying "Oh, it's just a kid, the list must be wrong, let him through" would not be acceptable and would be a serious breach of security.

Our intelligence agents may have gathered intel that the terrorists will use children in general.  Perhaps they gathered it by watching TV about Palestinians and being outraged by it.

But are we to believe that they have gathered intel that specific five-year-olds named Dillinger will be used for terrorist attacks?

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« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2008, 11:45:14 PM »

Quote from: Mr. Fed on January 09, 2008, 11:43:14 PM

But are we to believe that they have gathered intel that specific five-year-olds named Dillinger will be used for terrorist attacks?

Did he look shifty?
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Lee
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« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2008, 11:45:20 PM »

As has been said, I doubt the list contains details. If their lists says a 6' tall man with a tattoo on his right arm, then no, this would not be acceptable. Refine the list, but until it is, they have to follow procedures.
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« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2008, 11:47:19 PM »

Quote from: Lee on January 09, 2008, 11:45:20 PM

As has been said, I doubt the list contains details. If their lists says a 6' tall man with a tattoo on his right arm, then no, this would not be acceptable. Refine the list, but until it is, they have to follow procedures.

You do know it's legal to fly without providing ID, right?  That's why this is a particularly particularly stupid system.  Any malefactor can buy a ticket under someone else's name.

edit:  linkage: http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1254.shtm

Quote
We encourage each adult traveler to keep his/her airline boarding pass and government-issued photo ID available until exiting the security checkpoint. The absence of proper identification will result in additional screening.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 11:49:37 PM by Brendan » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2008, 11:56:01 PM »

btw, 'dilinger' was not referencing his name. Mathew Gardner is his name.  the other one is apparently wanted in connection with some immigration issues. 

it's hard to infer any tone by the TSA people during the search, so i can't say whether this is just a case of "sorry ma'am, formality and regulation" or one where the agent let the power go to his head.  who knows, maybe they said it with a smile.

it is very hard to feel safe in this country when our safeguards are reliant on a lack of information. 

oh, and it's awesome that catherine stevens gets flagged for a muslim folk singer when she flies.  you just never know when one of those crafty terrorists will take a sex change and marry a senator just to pass security.   Roll Eyes

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« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2008, 12:05:48 AM »

Quote from: Kratz on January 09, 2008, 10:50:58 PM

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When his mother went to pick him up and hug him and comfort him during the proceedings, she was told not to touch him because he was a national security risk.

Goddamn that's sickening.

Frankly, if a TSA agent got in my way of comforting my kid, I'd fuck him up so badly they'd need dental records to identify the body. 

When it comes to folks who would somehow support this action by the TSA, it's simply obvious they live in fear and would trade their rights, and the rights of everyone around them, to calm their irrational fears.  I think it's a cowardly position, but then again I'm a "death or liberty" kind of guy and believe we should worry about a police state more than a faceless boogyman (teh terrorizists!!!!).
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« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2008, 12:06:40 AM »

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.

Find FEAR!!!  Kill it!!!  Arrest it!!  FEAR IT!!!!

It really pisses me off at how sissified our country has become.
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« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2008, 12:14:26 AM »

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

I don't feel any safer since 9/11 than I did before that date.

As far as I'm concerned, the terrorists have won as we're now looking for them in every dark corner (and every 5 year old) that walks around.
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« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2008, 12:19:00 AM »

what pisses me off more is seeing how this country rules based on avoiding the smallest occurrence of danger.  all it takes is a terrorist plan getting exposed where he sticks a bomb up his ass and before you know it, we'll all be bending over for cavity checks. 

hell, we've already
removed our shoes because of a "shoe bomb"
limited our liquids because of a "liquid bomb"
separated our electronics because of a "laptop bomb"
subjected ourselves to extra security because of our name

sure, you can claim it's all small beans, and unless it hits you personally, it's easy to see it that way.  but beware what crazy plot a terrorist cooks up after watching a bruce willis action movie.  "i know, we'll form c4 into sheets and disguise it as clothing." 
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« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2008, 12:22:00 AM »

I didn't know it was possible for me to both agree and disagree with both sides of an argument in one thread.  I think both sides are being just a hair extremist here.

gellar
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« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2008, 12:22:55 AM »

That's why I've said a million times, I don't care about the risks.  I just want my freedom back.

If I get killed in a terrorist attack, so be it.  But personally, I'm more concerned about dying in an auto accident or getting hit by lightning.  There's a far greater chance of that happening.
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« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2008, 12:34:43 AM »

When you have terrorists willing to die for their cause and who care nothing about taking the lives of innocents opperating in a free and open society there will always be conflicts.  Two weeks before 9/11 people would never have stood for 2 hour waits to get on planes.  Two weeks later everybody was wondering if two hours would be enough.  Now 6 years later, people are starting to complain about the TSA.  Sooner or later airport security will get lax enough to allow another incident to happen, and the cycle will start again. 

It is what it is.  Anyone who has ever tried to board a plane in Tel Aviv would think all of this talk is funny.  Let's hope we never have to go through 2 hour interviews to get on a plane here in the United States.   I wish we didn't need airport security at all.  And hopefully in the future technology will allow it to be less intrusive.  But let's not forget that at the end of the day it's the scumbags flying planes into buildings that are causing this, not the TSA. The TSA has a tough job. It's easy to pick one incident and criticize. 
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« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2008, 12:39:27 AM »

Quote from: denoginizer on January 10, 2008, 12:34:43 AM

Sooner or later airport security will get lax enough to allow another incident to happen, and the cycle will start again.

It's lax enough now. All it will take is the right individuals getting involved in whatever said plotted incident might be.
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« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2008, 12:45:50 AM »

To that end... I fly reasonably often and I *rarely* wait more than about 30 mins in a security line.  The typical wait time is more around 10.  The only time it really sucks is when I get behind the 'amateur' travelers who feel the need to ARGUE with TSA about what they can and can't carry on like the TSA schlep is the guy making the rules. 

So with that in mind, here are some messages I'd like to leave to my fellow travelers over the past few months:

1)  Look lady, I don't care that your shampoo cost $20 and you don't want to throw it away.  Rules are rules, they've been around a while now, and everyone has to follow them.  SHUT THE FUCK UP AND MOVE ALONG SO I CAN CATCH MY MISERABLE FLIGHT.

2)  Yes, you do have to take off your shoes.  No, no one cares that they are 'special kinds' that you bought so you don't have to take them off.  Apparently they aren't that fucking special, ARE THEY?

3)  You know the guy in the uniform who's been repeating himself over and over again the past 10 mins about how your jacket needs to be in a bin and your laptop needs to be out of it's bag?  That's not just for show.  Do it before you get to the front of the line, please.

4)  No, you CAN'T walk through the metal detector while on your cell phone, douchebag.

5)  Yes, shockingly, water is a liquid.

Now all that being said, I don't think our security measures (at least the ones I've personally experienced) are all that excessive.  On a flight back from Mexico a few months back, I literally walked right through security with nary a look.  Tossed my bags in the metal detector and walked on through.  No shoe check, no laptop out of bag, I was even still holding my coffee.  I dunno if I'm just paranoid, but I'd prefer our system to that one.

gellar
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« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2008, 12:57:53 AM »

Quote from: Lee
I am not saying this is a great thing...

Yeah, because what you're saying is this:

Quote from: Lee
...tough shit.


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« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2008, 01:06:41 AM »

Quote
If that is winning, then we really need to consider our lives a little more closely. We are bitching about inconveniences, nothing more.
inconveniences? its called being stripped of our rights. A person had their 5 year old put through a traumatic experience for the sake of appearances. pathetic

Quote
Quote from: Lee
...tough shit.
umm just what are you fighting for then? if it isn't to uphold the consititution, then why bother to put on a uniform?

Quote
No shoe check, no laptop out of bag, I was even still holding my coffee
and yet you somehow still lived.  Wow, with all those mexican planes blowing up,.. oh wait thats right....
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 01:10:39 AM by TC Weidner » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2008, 01:15:03 AM »

Quote from: TC Weidner on January 10, 2008, 01:06:41 AM

Quote
No shoe check, no laptop out of bag, I was even still holding my coffee
and yet you somehow still lived.  Wow, with all those mexican planes blowing up,.. oh wait thats right....

Actually they hand searched everyone's bags before we got onboard because we were going to the US slywink

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« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2008, 01:15:40 AM »

Quote from: TC Weidner on January 10, 2008, 01:06:41 AM

umm just what are you fighting for then? if it isn't to uphold the consititution, then why bother to put on a uniform?

No.  It's to protect ungrateful people such as yourself from watching a plane with your child on it crash into a building.

Again.  If someone's name is on a watch list then they need to be checked out.  Until the lists are made better and all they have to go by is a name then everyone with that name has to be checked.  No exceptions.  Why is that so hard to understand?
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