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Author Topic: Thoughts on Flight 93 movie. [melancholy]  (Read 5978 times)
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2006, 09:10:29 PM »

Quote from: "Purge"
Quote from: "Eduardo X"
I think they were thinking a lot of what people like me, activists, think. "Our government is really messed up, and lots of people are dying because of their actions, so we need to do something."


And the compulsion to kill themselves? There would have to be significant personal trauma or political / religious programming to overcome your natural instinct for survival.

Ideology and  is a pretty strong conviction. Didn't you play Alpha Centauri and run up against the Christian Faction with their fanatics?
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« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2006, 12:01:15 AM »

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Now, before you go thinking I'm trolling or causing a ruckus, keep in mind this is how I feel. In no way do I expect to change anyone's mind; I just wanted to offer a different perspective.


That I can respect and agree with, and I should note that my own posts should be taken the same way.  I'm not trying to be inflammatory, I'm just upset and explaining why.
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Graham
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« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2006, 12:20:27 AM »

Quote from: "Eduardo X"
Ideology and  is a pretty strong conviction. Didn't you play Alpha Centauri and run up against the Christian Faction with their fanatics?


You are equating this to real life?
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« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2006, 02:01:50 AM »

wow, this is getting crazy.

my main point is I don't see making a movie out of it.  Sure it might be interesting to hear what the passengers were thinking/saying to their families, but do you really want to watch a whole movies about that?  maybe a 30 minute tv special..

put aside also the fact that it would offend someone.  Do you honestly think it would be a "good" movie?
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« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2006, 02:51:03 AM »

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I have no desire to see this movie.  It comes across as being in very poor taste, to me anyway.  I can understand a documentary on TLC or whatnot, but I go to the movies to be entertained.  This is not entertainment.  I actually hope this thing tanks big time.


 Schindler's List wasn't all that entertaining, unless of course you're a natzi, but that movie was made and it did about 100 million at the box office in the US. Not all movies need to be entertaining. Sometimes they just tell a story and this is a story about United Flight 93.
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« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2006, 11:34:45 AM »

Quote from: "weleavefossils"
wow, this is getting crazy.

my main point is I don't see making a movie out of it.  Sure it might be interesting to hear what the passengers were thinking/saying to their families, but do you really want to watch a whole movies about that?  maybe a 30 minute tv special..

put aside also the fact that it would offend someone.  Do you honestly think it would be a "good" movie?


Actually, yeah, I do think it can be a good movie. I've enjoyed the directors other work and I don't think the previews are bad. It won't be entertaining in the same way that action or comedy films are of course, but it will be "enlightening" in the same way films like Schindler's List are.

Note: I'm not saying the film will be as good as SL, just that it falls in the same style of movie (ie: make you think rather then make you laugh or go "awww" or whatever else movies go for).
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« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2006, 11:39:59 AM »

Quote from: "Purge"
Quote from: "Eduardo X"
I think they were thinking a lot of what people like me, activists, think. "Our government is really messed up, and lots of people are dying because of their actions, so we need to do something."


And the compulsion to kill themselves? There would have to be significant personal trauma or political / religious programming to overcome your natural instinct for survival.


I also don't believe that their thoughts were about the government.  At that point, they knew they were going to die if the terrorists kept flying the plane.  It's not hard to add up the events of that morning and come to that conclusion.  I'd say that once the passengers were told about the WTC and the Pentagon via their cell phones, they had only one option.  So they did the only natural thing - try to retake the plane in order to survive.
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« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2006, 03:58:53 PM »

NONONO... I was referring to the "terrorists". I should have explained myself. There was very little insight into the motivations of the people who killed themselves willingly for their cause. You'd be hard-pressed to show me reason why I should be responsible for killing thousands of people INCLUDING myself.

Why did they do it? I mean, on a personal level? What was their justification on an individual level? How did they quantify this act as being worthy of their OWN life?

What is Luke Skywalker and the "Rebellion" ? They're terrorists to the established regime. Are they better or worse than the empire? Ooo, dark forces brought about the empire. Dark shady characters with their own hidden agendas who can destroy an entire nation with the push of a button. Sure. Ok, we know the leader of the Empire was corrupt.

And we think Bush is.... honorable? Able-minded? Really in charge? I've got four words to the "destroy an entire nation" ... Weapons Of Mass Destruction. I don't blame the American population for Bush's 2 terms in office; it's not like you guys VOTED HIM IN or anything. I wouldn't trust an electronic voting system put in place by partisan groups in Bush's camp right after this Florida / Gore wins-no-wait-he-loses fiasco. On the US government and their actions both in and out of their own country, I have nothing but contempt.

Wasn't there a movie about this EXACT type of strike (Executive Decision, IIRC)... it made money; I don't see how (ultimately) the United '93 movie would be any worse of a premise; except it's more real because of the historical reference. You'd think they'd be ready for this type of attack.

As far as the people on the plane, I feel their pain and their loss. I commend the people who fought for control of the plane, they may have saved thousands of lives. I don't know that they are heroes; but they have my admiration for truly shaking the reins of thier own destiny; taking their lives in their own hands.

I will watch the movie. Am I going to see it in theatres? Not likely. The US citizen perspective has been played over and over and over; it is the only side that would fall into traditional hollywood "happy ending, or at least a worthwhile sacrifice" format that almost all movies have. (You know, patriotic flag waving showing that they died for the greatest nation and must surely be in heaven for their sacrifice). I know that sounds sarcastic, but there are few films out there that tell a story without an uplifting ending of either success or at least some moral displayed that would make Asop proud.

I am far more interested in the other perspective; seeing the other side helps give perspective on the truth vs. bias.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2006, 06:25:19 PM »

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NONONO... I was referring to the "terrorists".
Me too....
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« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2006, 06:28:44 PM »

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Quote from: "Eduardo X"
Ideology and  is a pretty strong conviction. Didn't you play Alpha Centauri and run up against the Christian Faction with their fanatics?


You are equating this to real life?

You don't see fanaticism and dogma happening in real life?
I think killing somebody is a pretty heavy handed action, and taking the step from killing to suicide-killing is not very far. Anybody, really, who joins the military is ready to die for their country. While the military and terrorism are obviously different, the devotion to an ideal or religion is still the same.
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« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2006, 06:56:54 PM »

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Quote from: "Graham"
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Ideology and  is a pretty strong conviction. Didn't you play Alpha Centauri and run up against the Christian Faction with their fanatics?


You are equating this to real life?

You don't see fanaticism and dogma happening in real life?
I think killing somebody is a pretty heavy handed action, and taking the step from killing to suicide-killing is not very far. Anybody, really, who joins the military is ready to die for their country. While the military and terrorism are obviously different, the devotion to an ideal or religion is still the same.


True. But as the illustrious General Patton once noted, the goal is not to die for your country but to make the other dumb bastard die for his country. Suicide bombers are an aberration to the general philosophy of warfare that's existed for thousands of years. Imagine what the US Navy thought when the first kamakazi planes slammed into US ships. Now it's so commonplace in the Middle East after decades of doing it but it remains nigh impossible to fathom the idea of someone killing themselves and anyone else in range all for their religious beliefs.

As for the movie, it's unsurprising to me that Hollywood in general thinks we need movies about this right now (and by "right now" I mean within 50 years of the event happening). Then again Pearl Harbor is the closest thing we have to 9/11 and "Tora, Tora, Tora" came out in 1970... a few years after the attack. If there were similar films that came before then they're escaping my mind right now.

Between this and "World Trade Center" I think it's still too soon to see everything again. As with most world-altering events, those of us who watched it live on TV are going to have a different perspective than our children or our grandchildren will. Maybe someday the movies will find their place but I don't see that being in the near future.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2006, 07:49:36 PM »

Yeah, Whitey, a movie like Saving Private Ryan, or even Jarhead, tells us a story we may not know.
I don't think too many people don't know about 9/11/01.
And while the immensity of the suicide-terrorism is hard to grasp, the way people so dogmatically and whole-heartedly believe in their causes, be it in Palestine, Iraq, or even in Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany (where it was not terrorism) is still very easy for me to understand. I hate to compare the two, but I feel it is the same type of conviction that Martin Luther King, Jr. had. It's a lack of fear regarding death that lets you do whatever it takes to obtain your desire, be it freedom or death and destruction. King said something along the lines of "If a person doesn't have a cause worth dying for, then that person's life isn't worth living." Some people take that philosophy to a twisted extreme.
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« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2006, 08:12:14 PM »

My point was not "what can Oliver Stone teach us?" but more of a "Old Hollywood would put some distance between the tragedy and the movie-of-the-week" versus current Hollywood which can't cash in on tragedy fast enough.

As for the suicide bomber's desire to sacrifice themselves for the cause I find it tough to believe that the leadership themselves would voluntarily go out in a blaze of glory. Why should they? They can talk the talk but then send off their minions (younger the better) to be martyrs for the cause. As such I have a tough time taking these asshats seriously. They are a threat to be sure, but eliminate the leaders (and by eliminate I mean execute) and things may sort themselves out.

That being said I realize now that I've written it out that it sounds pretty much like Western ideas about radical Islam since, oh, the Crusades. I guess that proves with myself as the example that the source of the problem will continue to elude us until someone comes up with a time machine and tells the instigators of the Crusades that seizing Jerusalem from the Muslims might not be the smartest move in the world. smile
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2006, 08:15:26 PM »

Quote from: "whiteboyskim"
My point was not "what can Oliver Stone teach us?" but more of a "Old Hollywood would put some distance between the tragedy and the movie-of-the-week" versus current Hollywood which can't cash in on tragedy fast enough.

As for the suicide bomber's desire to sacrifice themselves for the cause I find it tough to believe that the leadership themselves would voluntarily go out in a blaze of glory. Why should they? They can talk the talk but then send off their minions (younger the better) to be martyrs for the cause. As such I have a tough time taking these asshats seriously. They are a threat to be sure, but eliminate the leaders (and by eliminate I mean execute) and things may sort themselves out.

That may have worked at first, but I fear it is too late.
Things will sort themselves out in Palestine when the Israelis and the Palestinians stop pointing fingers at each other and point them at themselves.
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« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2006, 09:23:13 PM »

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They may have worked at first, but I fear it is too late.
Things will sort themselves out in Palestine when the Israelis and the Palestinians stop pointing fingers at each other and point them at themselves.


Now that I agree with. Call me an optimist but I continue to have hope that as the older hard liners fade out that the younger generation recognize the failings of old and come to a peaceful solution.
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« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2006, 10:53:18 PM »

I'm not trying to tell anyone their opinion is wrong or to not give their opinion, just to clear that up.  That's why I started with "I think...", to show this is just what I think, not what IS.

On the entertainment aspect, the thing is this:

There is no real footage of Titanic going down.  Therefore a movie about the sinking of Titanic holds one immediate source of possible entertainment value- showing me the sinking of a huge ship after it hits an iceberg.  It's something I've never seen before.

Now, in the case of the events of 9/11, there is no shortage of footage of the real events happening.  Nothing will ever be more impressive, more shocking, more surreal, etc than reality.   So any movies about that day are at an immediate disadvantage, since not only do we know what happened, we SAW what happened.

That's why I think the movie really has no chance at making much money.   It's redundant.  I think people will turn away from it because of that, more than because they take offense at it.
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« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2006, 03:15:03 PM »

Small sample size, but it's 100% on Rotten Tomatoes so far.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/united_93/
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« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2006, 03:49:54 PM »

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Small sample size, but it's 100% on Rotten Tomatoes so far.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/united_93/

Wow. I never would have guessed.
If you think about it, though, it's a really good story.
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« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2006, 06:47:50 PM »

Honestly, what critic is going to lambast a movie about American Heroes(tm)?
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« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2006, 11:51:31 AM »

More reviews are trickling in and U93 is currently at 92% with "The Cream of the Crop" at 100%. A couple money quotes...

Quote
"A few people made extraordinary use of those tormented minutes, and United 93 fully honors what was original and spontaneous and brave in their refusal to go quietly."

-- David Denby, NEW YORKER


Quote
"This is the best movie so far this year [and] I think itís the most important film."

-- Richard Roeper, EBERT & ROEPER


I'm still not sure if I'll see this in theatres or not, but I'll definitely be seeing it now that it appears to be very well made.
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« Reply #60 on: April 25, 2006, 11:56:46 AM »

Entertainment Weekly just had an article on the film and it made it sound like most of the families of those one the plane gave the director their blessing.
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« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2006, 02:39:01 PM »

I just came here to second that.  I was jhust watching MSNBC, and apparently he went to all the families of people on the flight, and talked with thema, dnt they all gave thier blessing for the movie.

Also.  i read in the newspaper yesterday that one of the air traffic controllers is actually one of the guys who was on that day.  Like the guy who was in chrage of having to decide wether to bring the planes down or not.

I havent posted in this thread in sometime.  It got way away from what it originally was, just like all threads.  So maybe I missed this.  But my question is now this.  With the recent court case going on, and the flight recording coming out.  Now we know that the passangers didnt actually put the plane down.  Like we had been told.  That the hijackers, realizing they werent going to be able to go through withthe plan put it down.  How is that going to play into this movie?  or we going to get the old version?  The passengers and hijackers fighting in the cockpit for control?  or are we going to get the real version with them just nose diving the plane?
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« Reply #62 on: April 26, 2006, 04:02:16 PM »

The movie isn't for entertainment purposes, it's patriotic drum-beating to stir up support for the "War on Terror".  I can just hear it now: "By Grabthor's Hammer, I will avenge you!"

Remember, if we change the story to reflect the reality that the terrorists ditched the plane, then the terrorists have already won!
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« Reply #63 on: April 26, 2006, 04:21:18 PM »

Quote from: "Farscry"
The movie isn't for entertainment purposes, it's patriotic drum-beating to stir up support for the "War on Terror".  I can just hear it now: "By Grabthor's Hammer, I will avenge you!"


I seriously doubt that.  The director (whose idea the whole film was in the first place) isn't even American.  And he's never shown any sort of patriotic, drum beating tendencies before (especially anyone who has seen his first film  "Bloody Sunday" can attest).  What basis do are you making this claim on?
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« Reply #64 on: April 26, 2006, 04:56:18 PM »

Ok, then I'll admit that it's my fault for not being more familiar with the filmmaker as far as my read into the intentions of the film.  The film just seems too much like something I'd see as a made-for-tv film on either the Fox news network or one of the big three networks.

I'm quite concerned about the fact that we're learning that our previously accepted theory about how the plane went down is actually false. If, as we're starting to learn, the plane was actually ditched by the terrorists and not the passengers, then the film is actually not truly depicting events as they happened, and the general public will unfortunately likely be more familiar with these events than what we find to be reality.

Now, taking this further: if the terrorists are actually the ones who ditched the planes, and the passengers failed to actually retake the plane, does that mean I'm saying they weren't heroes?  Absolutely not.  A hero isn't someone who succeeds, a hero is someone who gives it their all and tries.
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« Reply #65 on: April 26, 2006, 05:53:30 PM »

I agree, those people are still heroes.  Without thier effort that plane could have caused WAY more damage.  Not just physical, but psychological as well.

i was just wondering which version we are going to get.  The movie is supposed to be based on 'real time'.  The events happen AS they happened that day.  So, if its a real basis are they going to end it the right way?  Or maybe it just fades away at the end with a tribute to the people on board?

Them up and rioting trying to take the cockpit.  I know they use real audio from that day.  So maybe we see the plane, inside with the passengers, and we see them get up, and the screen goes blank, and we can hear the audio...and it fades soon too.  before we actually hear them say to ditch the plane.  And we come intoa seen of an american flag at 'ground zero'.
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« Reply #66 on: April 26, 2006, 11:03:40 PM »

Regarding the time scale, nearly 7,000 Americans died at Iwo Jima, and the film adaption of it was released in 1949, about four years later. Not comparing the two events, but it was the first "true story" movie about a large loss of life that came to mind that I knew was made quickly after the fact.

I haven't seen the trailer, so I can't comment on the merits of this film, but I think that 9/11 is a reasonable topic for consideration through artwork, including fictional movies and books, etc.  

I'll see this movie at some point in the next few weeks, I'm sure. If done right, the film should be absolutely wrenching to watch. That's not necessarily bad. There's more to film than entertainment.
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« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2006, 03:27:31 AM »

Quote from: "Farscry"
Ok, then I'll admit that it's my fault for not being more familiar with the filmmaker as far as my read into the intentions of the film.  The film just seems too much like something I'd see as a made-for-tv film on either the Fox news network or one of the big three networks.

I'm quite concerned about the fact that we're learning that our previously accepted theory about how the plane went down is actually false. If, as we're starting to learn, the plane was actually ditched by the terrorists and not the passengers, then the film is actually not truly depicting events as they happened, and the general public will unfortunately likely be more familiar with these events than what we find to be reality.

Now, taking this further: if the terrorists are actually the ones who ditched the planes, and the passengers failed to actually retake the plane, does that mean I'm saying they weren't heroes?  Absolutely not.  A hero isn't someone who succeeds, a hero is someone who gives it their all and tries.


I always thought that the passengers were trying to retake the plane in order to somehow safely land the damn thing themselves and in doing so caused the hijackers to ditch the plane when they knew they wouldn't be able to hold them back. If I had been on that plane, self preservation would have been my number one goal and doing whatever it takes to make that happen. I just can't see the passengers on there thinking that their only option was to wrest control of plane and ditch it in order to prevent further catastrophe on the ground.
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« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2006, 12:02:01 PM »

Berardinelli gives the film 4 out of 4 stars.

http://movie-reviews.colossus.net/movies/u/united93.html

While it's understandable that many people aren't going to want to see the movie (I'm not even sure if I do), I think we can put to rest the contention that the movie itself is poorly made. It's obviously very well done, regardless of what you think of the subject matter.
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« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2006, 01:44:53 PM »

Thanks for that last link there, godhugh.  Well-written review that actually responds to a lot of my complaints and worries regarding the film.  In fact, it alleviates most of my concerns.

However, the key sticking point for me is this disclaimer from within the review:

Quote
One should not confuse United 93 with a documentary. Although it uses the historical record as a basis for its story, the dramatization relies upon Greengrass' imagination for everything for which we do not have confirmation: conversations between passengers, facial expressions, and what happened during those final, confused moments.


Unfortunately, I expect that most of the people who see the film will see it as the True Story (tm), and thus anything that's revealed in the ongoing investigations into the truth of that day which contradicts the film will be tossed aside casually by the people who prefer the film's version of events.

Am I being anal retentive here?  Yes, I admit that.  I'm really pricklish when it comes to the truth and anything distorting it at all.  Truth, honor, and justice, and all that; I believe in that stuff a little too much for my own good, I suppose.
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« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2006, 08:09:09 PM »

After my initial revulsion, all these rave reviews are making me reconsider. I may see this at some point.
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« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2006, 12:41:11 PM »

(crossposted from OO)

One more review...

Roger Ebert's review is up:

**** out of ****

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060427/REVIEWS/60419006

Here's my favorite passage:

Quote
There has been much discussion of the movie's trailer, and no wonder. It pieces together moments from "United 93" to make it seem more conventional, more like a thriller. Dialogue that seems absolutely realistic in context sounds, in the trailer, like sound bites and punch lines. To watch the trailer is to sense the movie that Greengrass did not make. To watch "United 93" is to be confronted with the grim chaotic reality of that autumn day in 2001. The movie is deeply disturbing, and some people may have to leave the theater. But it would have been much more disturbing if Greengrass had made it in a conventional way. He does not exploit, he draws no conclusions, he points no fingers, he avoids "human interest" and "personal dramas" and just simply watches. The movie's point of view reminds me of the angels in "Wings of Desire." They see what people do and they are saddened, but they cannot intervene.
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« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2006, 04:15:42 PM »

Yes it is absolutely getting positive reviews.  Very interesting!  Still a rental for me.
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