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Author Topic: The Walking Dead tap dances onto AMC for Season 4  (Read 44379 times)
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Bullwinkle
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« Reply #1240 on: February 13, 2014, 04:49:08 PM »

While I agree with Hep's counter arguments, I think Zin makes a valid complaint.  Not having a destination or stated goal can make the show feel aimless.  And while that certainly may be "realistic" in a survivalist setting, it's not necessarily compelling.  Generally, I feel they can get away with that for only a couple of episodes before they have to find something to do.

It is a little worrying that we're going to have to see what each splinter group is up to before they can start writing them together believably.  Assuming there are only three of them (Rick & co., other prisoners, Carol), we still could be looking at six episodes before things start to gel again.  That's nearly the whole half season.
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« Reply #1241 on: February 13, 2014, 05:02:33 PM »

I get the feeling that some folks want that goal to be "find a cure" essentially.  This is a very bleak show and I doubt that kind of ultimate resolution is in the cards.  Short term goals are the only reasonable ones they can have, given the world they live in.

But I think that if there is a primary, long term goal to be found in the show, it's that everyone is attempting to achieve (whether knowingly or unknowingly) the establishment of a community of some sort.  The prison, the farm, the RV camp...all of them were attempts to find safety and comfort through a community.  

Whether or not that's enough of a goal is up to the viewer.  Personally, I find it perfectly fitting for this kind of show.  
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« Reply #1242 on: February 13, 2014, 07:39:49 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 13, 2014, 05:02:33 PM

I get the feeling that some folks want that goal to be "find a cure" essentially.  This is a very bleak show and I doubt that kind of ultimate resolution is in the cards.  Short term goals are the only reasonable ones they can have, given the world they live in.

But I think that if there is a primary, long term goal to be found in the show, it's that everyone is attempting to achieve (whether knowingly or unknowingly) the establishment of a community of some sort.  The prison, the farm, the RV camp...all of them were attempts to find safety and comfort through a community.  

Whether or not that's enough of a goal is up to the viewer.  Personally, I find it perfectly fitting for this kind of show.  

I don't think anyone is looking for "find a cure" as a goal, just "get to X" or "we need to find a Y or so and so will die" or something to give episodes a certain thrust instead of just "survive" which leads to aimlessness.  "Clearing out the prison to establish it as a home" is a good example of one.  "Live in the prison" is not.  Even "live in the prison while the Governor is out there maybe doing something" is not. 

An overarching goal is not necessary, but a multi-episode one is fairly important. The writers are usually good at getting the show on track, but the show sometimes suffers until they do.  It doesn't take a lot to have a goal.  And sometimes it's refreshing to not have one, but spend too long doing that, and the viewers get restless.
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« Reply #1243 on: February 13, 2014, 07:48:14 PM »

But if you recall, multi episode goals did arise in the prison.  Two of the bigger ones were to find the person responsible for the deaths of the infected, and to find the medicine/survive long enough to get said medicine.

When they were on the farm, the goal was to find Carrol's daughter, amongst other things.

When they were in the RV club, the goal was to get to the CDC.

They're never going to let the show become the Seinfeld of horror in which nothing happens and the stories arise from the banality of that.  Every time they've achieved any kind of normalcy that results in anything resembling complacency, they've had a conflict arise that forced them to act. At the very least, that forces them back to the goal of survival and the search for the aforementioned community that represents their best bet for such.

I'm guessing that the goals presented are actually just seen as boring by some, hence my earlier assertion that nothing less than a cure (or something equally as huge...but incongruous to the tone of the show) is going to satisfy some.
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« Reply #1244 on: February 13, 2014, 09:03:28 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 13, 2014, 07:48:14 PM

But if you recall, multi episode goals did arise in the prison.  Two of the bigger ones were to find the person responsible for the deaths of the infected, and to find the medicine/survive long enough to get said medicine.

When they were on the farm, the goal was to find Carrol's daughter, amongst other things.

When they were in the RV club, the goal was to get to the CDC.

They're never going to let the show become the Seinfeld of horror in which nothing happens and the stories arise from the banality of that.  Every time they've achieved any kind of normalcy that results in anything resembling complacency, they've had a conflict arise that forced them to act. At the very least, that forces them back to the goal of survival and the search for the aforementioned community that represents their best bet for such.

I'm guessing that the goals presented are actually just seen as boring by some, hence my earlier assertion that nothing less than a cure (or something equally as huge...but incongruous to the tone of the show) is going to satisfy some.


If you'll recall, I said the writers are good at getting the show on track, but it's not true that they've never let the show fall into a period without a goal or only a vague one.  Or let a goal stretch too long with no active movement on it, which amounts to the same thing.

The show can dip into aimlessness at times.  As I've said, sometimes that works as it fits the world, but sometimes it takes a little longer than it should to get on track again.  I generally trust them to keep the show moving, but I can see it as a valid complaint, is what I'm saying.
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« Reply #1245 on: February 13, 2014, 09:06:14 PM »

The "goal" discussion is kind of interesting.  Honestly I just don't think this is *that* show, so if you're looking for specific goals or closure, you'll never find it.  The first season's CDC plotline was a huge departure from anything in the original story, and likely why there was a schism in the production/writing team.  

The comic book is coming close to 200 issues now, and this is just pretty much the way the story is written.  Things just keep happening, and Rick and Carl and whoever they happen to have around them find ways to survive it.  In that sense, yes it is repetitive, but that's pretty much how they've chosen to tell this particular story.  This season is arguably more faithful to the comic than the previous ones, YMMV.

Ultimately it hinges on how much you care about the characters and what happens to them.  If you don't like Rick or Carl or the actors who portray them, it's no surprise you're losing interest because it's really their story for the most part.  

One thing I am wondering about is how they will handle the passage of time in relation to how Carl (the actor) grows.  In the comic Carl still looks pretty much like he did in the beginning,
Spoiler for Hiden:
but missing an eye of course lol
but in the TV show he's growing up physically much faster than the amount of time that's passing in the show.  Always difficult to make those kinds of adjustments.
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« Reply #1246 on: February 13, 2014, 11:18:37 PM »

Quote from: rittchard on February 13, 2014, 09:06:14 PM



Ultimately it hinges on how much you care about the characters and what happens to them.  If you don't like Rick or Carl or the actors who portray them, it's no surprise you're losing interest because it's really their story for the most part.  



I think that is very true in my case, never liked Carl and Rick has sort of taken on a one dimensional state in more recent episodes.  I guess my overall point would be that I just fast forward past the zombie attacks as they all play out the same and watch the story elements unfold but the story isn't grabbing me now.  I don't hate the show but to compare it to another show without a real overall goal, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the difference is that I liked watching those characters unlike my feelings about the main focus characters in Walking Dead.
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« Reply #1247 on: February 14, 2014, 02:25:43 AM »

I'm assuming a show like Battlestar Galactica would be an example of something with an overall goal?  

However, I would counter that the goal in The Walking Dead is just as urgent and immediate as that found in BSG.  It may not be a specific destination, but the end result of surviving a catastrophe was the real goal.  Something I think we can agree both shows share.

However, if you simply don't like the characters, that's something I can understand.  I still enjoy the portrayals, but folks have different tastes.
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« Reply #1248 on: February 14, 2014, 07:32:18 PM »

I think in some ways it was a mistake for the producers to diverge so much from the original story in season 1 - it may have given viewers a much different perspective on the show in general.  It's not that I didn't like that direction (of our survivors somehow moving toward being a part of the "cure"), but it's simply a very different type of story.  Back then I thought they may take it in a totally different direction more like that Will Smith movie (I am Legend), and have either Rick's wife or her baby be critical to finding a cure.  But clearly for whatever reason they shifted back to the original comic book vision, which is much more of a bleak survival tale, and maybe more than that, an examination of the definition of humanity under these kinds of conditions.
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« Reply #1249 on: February 17, 2014, 03:02:49 AM »

Now that should have been last weeks show. Glad I kep with it.
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« Reply #1250 on: February 17, 2014, 04:41:13 PM »

Great episode. you got a nice catch-up with pretty much every character, and some great tense moments and good action as well. 
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« Reply #1251 on: February 17, 2014, 07:21:10 PM »

Fantastic episode.  I'm hoping they're heading where I think they're heading.  But until they get there, I'm enjoying the side stories. 

I'm glad they made the psycho kid a girl as opposed to the comic book version.  For some reason, it adds a bit more impact to her actions.
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« Reply #1252 on: February 17, 2014, 08:14:16 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 17, 2014, 07:21:10 PM

I'm glad they made the psycho kid a girl as opposed to the comic book version.  For some reason, it adds a bit more impact to her actions.

What was with the rabbits and her? They showed rabbits. They showed her draw a knife. Did she kill them? There wasn't any blood or screaming, so I wasn't sure what that was supposed to be.
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« Reply #1253 on: February 17, 2014, 08:20:56 PM »

Quote from: Lee on February 17, 2014, 08:14:16 PM

Quote from: hepcat on February 17, 2014, 07:21:10 PM

I'm glad they made the psycho kid a girl as opposed to the comic book version.  For some reason, it adds a bit more impact to her actions.

What was with the rabbits and her? They showed rabbits. They showed her draw a knife. Did she kill them? There wasn't any blood or screaming, so I wasn't sure what that was supposed to be.

Spoiler for Hiden:
She killed the rabbits. In an earlier scene where they show Daryl walking through that campsite, the camera pans past the log right before going to commercial, and they have a prolonged shot of blood and fur inside the log. You don't know what it is at that time, but you can make the connection later in the show when they jump back in time to show the girl with the rabbits.
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« Reply #1254 on: February 17, 2014, 08:30:03 PM »

Ah, ok thanks. They handled that a bit badly then. My cat killed a rabbit once, I can't unhear it.
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« Reply #1255 on: February 17, 2014, 10:35:42 PM »

I though she was gonna off that baby too  icon_eek
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« Reply #1256 on: February 18, 2014, 03:17:50 AM »

Quote from: Mystic95Z on February 17, 2014, 10:35:42 PM

I though she was gonna off that baby too  icon_eek
I was rooting for her. I'll bet that baby will think twice before it starts bawling when Lizzy's around.
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« Reply #1257 on: February 18, 2014, 06:14:05 PM »

Quote from: Ironrod on February 18, 2014, 03:17:50 AM

Quote from: Mystic95Z on February 17, 2014, 10:35:42 PM

I though she was gonna off that baby too  icon_eek
I was rooting for her. I'll bet that baby will think twice before it starts bawling when Lizzy's around.

Actually she should be careful.  Have you noticed how fat that baby is?  You don't get that fat on limited supplies of baby formula.  Clearly Judith is a zombie hybrid and eating brains whenever you aren't watching.  That's why she's always crying, she wants to eat more brains.

- - -

I liked the episode a lot but I feel like the shows I've been watching keep using that same "rewind from different perspective" technique so it didn't have the freshness it might otherwise have.

Oh yeah, question:

Spoiler for Hiden:
I thought they found the little girl's black shoe in the first sequence so assumed she was dead.  Did they ever address that or was that just a red herring?

Also great catch on the rabbits, I totally missed that.  I kept staring at the screen trying to figure out what the heck was in those logs.  Now I have to go back and rewatch the episode.
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« Reply #1258 on: February 19, 2014, 04:43:21 PM »

Quote from: rittchard on February 18, 2014, 06:14:05 PM

Quote from: Ironrod on February 18, 2014, 03:17:50 AM

Quote from: Mystic95Z on February 17, 2014, 10:35:42 PM

I though she was gonna off that baby too  icon_eek
I was rooting for her. I'll bet that baby will think twice before it starts bawling when Lizzy's around.

Actually she should be careful.  Have you noticed how fat that baby is?  You don't get that fat on limited supplies of baby formula.  Clearly Judith is a zombie hybrid and eating brains whenever you aren't watching.  That's why she's always crying, she wants to eat more brains.

- - -

I liked the episode a lot but I feel like the shows I've been watching keep using that same "rewind from different perspective" technique so it didn't have the freshness it might otherwise have.

Oh yeah, question:

Spoiler for Hiden:
I thought they found the little girl's black shoe in the first sequence so assumed she was dead.  Did they ever address that or was that just a red herring?

Also great catch on the rabbits, I totally missed that.  I kept staring at the screen trying to figure out what the heck was in those logs.  Now I have to go back and rewatch the episode.

Spoiler for Hiden:
The boot seems to have been a red herring.

Quote from: Lee on February 17, 2014, 08:30:03 PM

Ah, ok thanks. They handled that a bit badly then. My cat killed a rabbit once, I can't unhear it.

It sounds more like you handled it badly.

I agree with all that this was a fantastic episode (and everyone in it had a "goal," btw...wink).  I had a moment where I worried that Tyreese might be going through an Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge scenario and might wake up by those tracks having imagined everything that happened after.

The pre-credit narration/on-screen stuff was just about perfect, too.
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« Reply #1259 on: February 19, 2014, 06:07:57 PM »

I think his point is that rabbits scream when they're being murderized.  Loudly.
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« Reply #1260 on: February 19, 2014, 06:21:49 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on February 19, 2014, 06:07:57 PM

I think his point is that rabbits scream when they're being murderized.  Loudly.

Not clicking that link, the one time was enough. It sounds like a small child being tortured.

I understand why they did it quietly in the show, they are trying to set the picture of this troubled girl torturing animals. I just wasn't sure what was going on when they showed her drawing the knife, because killing animals takes a bit more effort than that and they tend to make noise (not learned from personal experience).

I figured Bullwinkle was just giving me crap.
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« Reply #1261 on: February 19, 2014, 06:41:21 PM »

Quote from: Lee on February 19, 2014, 06:21:49 PM

Quote from: hepcat on February 19, 2014, 06:07:57 PM

I think his point is that rabbits scream when they're being murderized.  Loudly.

Not clicking that link, the one time was enough. It sounds like a small child being tortured.

I understand why they did it quietly in the show, they are trying to set the picture of this troubled girl torturing animals. I just wasn't sure what was going on when they showed her drawing the knife, because killing animals takes a bit more effort than that and they tend to make noise (not learned from personal experience).

I figured Bullwinkle was just giving me crap.

Shoulda put a winkie in there.
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« Reply #1262 on: February 19, 2014, 07:19:34 PM »

Whoa...who do you think you are?  Anthony Weiner?
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« Reply #1263 on: March 03, 2014, 06:26:53 AM »

I picked a bad week to watch this in real time rather than zapping the ads, because that was one slow episode. I can only figure that they're fixing to kill off Beth pretty soon.
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« Reply #1264 on: March 03, 2014, 01:53:21 PM »

I thought it was a great look into Daryl's psyche.  They used Beth as a vehicle to explore what motivates Daryl and it helped to cement his character as a fan favorite, I'm sure.  I could listen to Daryl and Merle stories all day long.
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« Reply #1265 on: March 03, 2014, 05:23:06 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 03, 2014, 01:53:21 PM

I thought it was a great look into Daryl's psyche.  They used Beth as a vehicle to explore what motivates Daryl and it helped to cement his character as a fan favorite, I'm sure.  I could listen to Daryl and Merle stories all day long.

It was an interesting look into Daryl, that could have been 10 minutes long while intermingled with other story arcs. Like the Carl season opener, the writers want to do these deep episodes on a character, but I just don't find the characters deep enough to care about them enough to watch 40 minutes in one sitting of them telling me about them in long moody scenes.

TWD, for me, is a story about a really interesting environment with really boring characters. I can't say I care for any of them, whether it's because I am a snob, or the writers suck (probably the former) is the question.  icon_wink
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« Reply #1266 on: March 03, 2014, 05:40:04 PM »

There's at least a third option.   icon_wink
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« Reply #1267 on: March 03, 2014, 06:48:12 PM »

As I mentioned before, I think it all boils down to how you feel about the specific characters.  While I appreciated what they doing in last night's episode, I found myself pretty bored and constantly hoping the duo would bump into someone, anyone else.  I've never been much on the Daryl bandwagon (except when he's with Carol), and Beth doesn't do much for me either.  So correspondingly I found this to be the most boring episode of the entire season, maybe of the entire series.  Obviously this is a purely personal bias as I know there are a lot of Daryl fans out there.  That said, I still think the episode would have benefited from having at least 1 or 2 more characters in it, particularly at this junction of the season (right after introducing Sarge, etc).  Even the Rick/Carl ep many of you didn't like had a Michonne story in it, plus it was placed in an almost "interlude" type of position from a series standpoint. 
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« Reply #1268 on: March 03, 2014, 06:54:21 PM »

Conversely, I find Daryl's character to be the most complex and interesting.  He started off as a "good ol' boy" who I initially thought was just there as additional muscle for Merle.  But it was slowly revealed over time that he is likely the most altruistic character on the show...and he has no right to be, considering his past.  It's a fascinating study of nurture vs. nature in my opinion.  Whether or not the writers intended this, I cannot say.  But I like to think that because he's not changed substantially over the course of the show, just had his true self revealed over time, means they did.
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« Reply #1269 on: March 04, 2014, 01:50:28 PM »

Interestingly, I kind of agree with everyone.  Daryl is a fantastic, complex character, and it's always nice to see him struggle with who he was versus who he wants to be.  However, this was a mostly weak episode with one chewy piece of meat in it (the pre-dawn chat).  Actually, two, because I liked Daryl's Schindleresque breakdown, too.

They're trying to find a character for Beth by having her do off-type things (giving the finger, wanting the alcohol, the pleasantly self-destructive talk), but really these are just simmering bubbles in the stew that is her reaction to her father's death (now that sentence right there is bad writing).  I think we may see some interesting things with her if she survives long enough to get back with her sister, but I don't know that she will or that I care enough that she does.

They need to get these two on some kind of track.  Right now, they're the most ambly group (this alcohol quest felt unimportant, writery, and tacked on), and it makes for filler stuff that shouldn't be stretched out to an episode.
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« Reply #1270 on: March 04, 2014, 02:35:02 PM »

I'm really glad they didn't go the obvious route of having them fall into bed together.  That's way too "tv" for this show. 
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« Reply #1271 on: March 04, 2014, 03:10:52 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 04, 2014, 02:35:02 PM

I'm really glad they didn't go the obvious route of having them fall into bed together.  That's way too "tv" for this show. 

OTOH, in the next ep preview, there was a shot of them holding hands.
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« Reply #1272 on: March 04, 2014, 03:38:15 PM »

Do you have sex with everyone you hold hands with?   eek
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« Reply #1273 on: March 04, 2014, 03:55:08 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on March 04, 2014, 03:38:15 PM

Do you have sex with everyone you hold hands with?   eek

In the zombie apocalypse you do!
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« Reply #1274 on: March 04, 2014, 04:06:55 PM »

I really hope I don't survive a zombie apocalypse with my mother in that case.   tear
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« Reply #1275 on: March 04, 2014, 04:17:36 PM »

All joking aside it seemed pretty clear that it was not just a friendly hand clasp, but something more. Hop into bed clasp as it were!
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« Reply #1276 on: March 04, 2014, 04:37:23 PM »

I tend not to watch previews as too often I've felt they've spoiled the surprise of the story, so I didn't see the hand holding incident you speak of.  However, I will continue to believe this unseen incident is indication of a father/daughter style relationship instead of the raunchy alternative. 

But if it does come down to sexy time, I won't be crying foul.  I'll just be a little skeeved out considering the age difference.
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rittchard
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« Reply #1277 on: March 04, 2014, 05:55:47 PM »

eeeeek, he can't do Beth, he's saving himself for Carol!  Cougar time!!!

Although that's what this show is missing after season 1, a new love triangle  icon_lol
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« Reply #1278 on: March 05, 2014, 01:34:20 AM »

Daryl is one of my favorite characters on the show because he's not usually front and center dominating the screen time.  When he's in scenes I always think, "oh cool, it's Daryl", or "everything is going to be ok, Daryl is here".  But too much Daryl kind of diminishes that aura.  He's like a badass zombie killing spice, don't overuse him or we will get used to him.  Same with Michonne. 

I like how Beth actually commented in the episode about his champion level ZA hero status when she said he would most likely be the last man standing. 
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« Reply #1279 on: March 10, 2014, 04:30:25 PM »

last week dragged on too long, but this one wasn't long enough imo.  one, we open with a bit of a future scene with no intermediate explanation for why these two were back together.  it underlined the action scenes with Daryl later on as you already knew (beyond the normal ZA armor he's wearing) that everything ends ok.  except it doesn't and it breaks the peace and happiness they were building.  the standoff with the new group leaves you wondering where about this new direction is going:  towards Terminus or towards the lawlessness of the group Rick barely escaped from? 

great episode. I skipped the next ep highlights though as they've been getting more and more spoiler-filled. 
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