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Author Topic: The record book is Peyton's Place!  (Read 6474 times)
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Jeff
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« on: November 25, 2004, 11:49:46 PM »

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/7928427

um, wow.

5 straight games with at least 4 TD passes.  41 TD passes in 11 games.  He's on pace to throw 60 TD passes for the season  :shock:
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Daehawk
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« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2004, 12:59:06 AM »

Never liked him..he always choked against FLorida when he was at Tennessee
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Big Jake
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« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2004, 12:50:21 AM »

Daehawk, have you seen him in the NFL playoffs?  That 41-0 playoff loss to the colts (137 yds, 2 pics) isn't exactly pretty.
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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2004, 04:35:17 AM »

Playoffs:

2-4, 10td, 6int, 246ypg

Don't think he'll be seeing Houston, Chicago and Detroit in the playoffs.
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« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2004, 05:33:25 AM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Playoffs:

2-4, 10td, 6int, 246ypg

Don't think he'll be seeing Houston, Chicago and Detroit in the playoffs.

Exactly.
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GungHo
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« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2004, 06:44:56 AM »

OH good grief yall....

Dude is flat-out good; hell those #s say he's great.

It couldnt possibly be that his TEAM wasn't as good as the TEAM he was playing is it??  

And here I was thinking we'd started to move beyond the 'The QB is solely responsible for all wins and losses' mentality.
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Jeff
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« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2004, 03:38:02 PM »

Quote from: "GungHo"
OH good grief yall....

Dude is flat-out good; hell those #s say he's great.

It couldnt possibly be that his TEAM wasn't as good as the TEAM he was playing is it??  

And here I was thinking we'd started to move beyond the 'The QB is solely responsible for all wins and losses' mentality.


Yeah, the implication that Manning isn't really a good QB was so silly I wasn't even going to respond.

If I were drafting an NFL team from scratch, and had first pick, that pick would be Peyton Manning.
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Devil
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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2004, 05:34:22 PM »

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If I were drafting an NFL team from scratch, and had first pick, that pick would be Peyton Manning.


You might want to draft 3 great WRs and an All-Pro RB to go with him too. Don't plan on playing in the Super Bowl either.

First pick in a fantasy league, sure.

I'd be drafting a shutdown corner, linebacker or maybe even a left guard.

I'm not saying the guy sucks or anything but I'm a big fan of winning.  smile
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Daehawk
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« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2004, 05:49:40 PM »

No I have'nt seen him in the playoffs..Like I said I dont like him or the Colts so I dontwatch them. Growing up I was a Steelers fan and now that Im grown Im a Titans fan.
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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2004, 06:36:57 PM »

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If I were drafting an NFL team from scratch, and had first pick, that pick would be Peyton Manning.


Oh dear god, please qualify that!  You do mean 'from current players', correct?  If you are indicating, knowing what you do now, that you would draft Peyton in front of Marino, Elway, or Montana, you need to check yourself into rehab.
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Jeff
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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2004, 06:53:43 PM »

Yeah, current players (what would've indicated I was referring to an all-time team?)

So, um, what QB's would you draft higher? (forget that fantasy stuff, I'm talking about assembling a real NFL team).

McNabb? Culpepper? Maybe. Personally, I'd take Manning over them.

And to say that Manning is better because he has a good RB, and WR's, well... duh. That's true of any QB. To say that he has better stats against bad defenses... well, duh. That's also true of any QB.

The guy has thrown 41 TD passes in 11 games. the all-time record is 48 in 16 games. He's completed 67% of his passes for 3 years running. he's thrown 4 or more TD's in 5 games in a row (an all time record).  His rating last year was 99.0, and this year it's a mind-numbing 127.00 (would easily shatter the all time mark)

and you guys are knocking him around? WTF does a guy have to do to impress you?

Btw, Marino never won a Superbowl either.  Manning will.

edit: Marino's postseason record was 8-10.  Would anyone seriously argue he wasn't one of the 3 greatest QB's of all time?

Lifetime numbers, just as a point of curiousity:

Joe Montana:
3409  5391  63.2 40551   7.5 273 139  TD's per game: 1.42

Peyton Manning:
2342  3707  63.2 27845   7.5 202 117 TD's per game: 1.92

I'm not arguing that Manning is better than Montana, but I think he's an excellent QB, and this shows he has similar numbers.
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Devil
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2004, 11:11:56 PM »

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Btw, Marino never won a Superbowl either. Manning will.


That's a bold statement. He better do it this year because that Colts team is looking to get a whole lot lighter on offense with the FAs they have. We'll see what happens next year with no Edge, Harrison or both. I think they are both free agents after this year and Mr. October's salary doesn't allow them much room. A little upgrade on the other side of the ball might help too.

Unless Manning get's traded, I don't see any reason think he's on the road to winning it all any time soon.

Without even looking too hard I found 3 guys with better career TD/INT ratios than Manning: Brady, McNabb and Favre


Guess he throws a lot of picks too. :wink:
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GungHo
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« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2004, 02:02:58 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Quote
Btw, Marino never won a Superbowl either. Manning will.


That's a bold statement. He better do it this year because that Colts team is looking to get a whole lot lighter on offense with the FAs they have. We'll see what happens next year with no Edge, Harrison or both. I think they are both free agents after this year and Mr. October's salary doesn't allow them much room. A little upgrade on the other side of the ball might help too.

Unless Manning get's traded, I don't see any reason think he's on the road to winning it all any time soon.

Without even looking too hard I found 3 guys with better career TD/INT ratios than Manning: Brady, McNabb and Favre


Guess he throws a lot of picks too. :wink:


Emmitt Smith's TD/INT ratio is better than any of 'em AND he's won more SBs.

Guess that settles that.   Tongue
(EDIT: forgot the Tongue... smile )
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Jancelot
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« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2004, 02:49:49 PM »

Although it's a tough call, personally I think Peyton Manning is the best player in the NFL and I'm not a Colts fan either.  He's not only QB but also basically an on-the-fly offensive coordinater.  I feel he's in a position much like Vick in that he brings so much to a mediocre team that he takes them to a competitive level.  Unfortunately it never fairs well for him in the post-season, but for his quality of character and talent I always root for him.
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Lewpats
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« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2004, 04:37:54 PM »

Manning is another of those players who says winning is why he plays the game but then he goes and asks for a salary which criples his team.  I hate that.  
I will not say he is a bad player he is good but with his salary unless the Colts do a great job drafting defense his team will never win a championship.  My prediction this year is a loss outdoors in the playoffs again.
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JLu
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« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2004, 06:57:10 PM »

Until Manning wins it all, he's just another Marino.  

Cannot compare Manning with Montana.  Heck you cannot do it with Tom Brady, and he's actually won that big game twice.

Nothing against Manning; he's fun to watch, but I wouldn't consider him the best QB in the league now, nevermind ever.  Putting up the most TDs in a season in history doesn't matter when his team won't make it to the Super Bowl once again this year.
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Jeff
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« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2004, 07:01:44 PM »

Sorry, JLu, I disagree. Attributing the fortunes of an entire team to one player is flawed logic, IMHO.  By that logic, Terry Bradshaw is the greatest QB ever.

"Just another Marino" ? heh, was that supposed to be a slam? smile
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Scott
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« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2004, 07:06:38 PM »

Let's see how Manning does when he plays some real defenses in the next few weeks, like Baltimore.  I've also never seen Manning play in the rain.  Manning puts up great numbers in domes and great weather.  When he comes to NE or any other outdoor arenas in bad weather, he doesn't do so well.

It is hard to impossible to compare numbers and stats in the league.  No one has the weapons Manning does, or that offensive line.  Quite a few of the QBs in the league could put up crazy stats.  Look at what happened to Culpepper without Moss.  Culpepper was on the same pace Manning was, and dropped without Moss.  Take Harrison away from Manning, start doubling the other receivers, and Manning's stats will drop fast.

How can you compare a QB like Brady to Manning as well?  Did people see the game Brady played yesterday?  Pretty hard to throw the ball well in the mud and downpours.  Favre, Brady, and a bunch of other QBs play in some pretty extreme conditions, so there stats won't be as good.

Anyway, what ulitmately matters and impresses in this league is winning, and winning the Superbowl.  Montana is the greatest because of his trophies, and his clutch performances in the big games.  Marino is great in the record books, but ultimately a loser.

Manning puts up great stats when surrounded by great talent in great football conditions, with little pressure on him or in fairly meaningless games.  Until he puts up great numbers, or even wins a significant game, he isn't one of the all time greats, or should even be mentioned as such.

I like Manning's commercial though, where he roots for the insurance guys smile.
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Jeff
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« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2004, 07:30:27 PM »

My original post here wasn't meant to suggest Manning is the greatest QB of all time.

I think Montana has that title, and I think I'd rank Elway second. Elway was amazing in the clutch, and in big games. I think he holds the record for most comeback drives at the end of a game.

No way in hell I'd ever call Marino a "loser" though. Superbowl wins are a team achievement. He did the best he could, and that just happens to be posting the best numbers in history.  I find it difficult to snuff off his incredible ability, and numbers. He was rarely sacked due to a lightning quick release.
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Scott
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« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2004, 07:33:24 PM »

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No way in hell I'd ever call Marino a "loser" though.

Yes, that is a bit strong.  Marino was pretty good, but his numbers certainly weren't great in team games.

People get stuck.  Either Manning is great, and they are his numbers, and then his fault when he doesn't make it to the Superbowl, or it is his team that does it all.  If it is his team, then his numbers are as much a reflection of the team then anything else.  Put Trent Green on that team, and I think you'll see numbers that are pretty damn close.   In fact,  Indy probably wins more with Trent Green, as then they can grab a few more defensive players to help that crappy defense.
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« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2004, 07:36:38 PM »

To get back to Jeff Jones' original point; Mannings statistics -are- absolutely amazing this year.  No one can argue that point with any credibility.  So as a result, we start arguing the other stuff  smile
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« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2004, 07:44:53 PM »

manning is to marino as brady is to montana.
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Big Jake
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« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2004, 07:59:35 PM »

Hey Jlu,
Quote
Mannings statistics -are- absolutely amazing this year. No one can argue that point with any credibility


Cough*Barry Bonds Offensive Stats*Cough
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« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2004, 08:41:37 PM »

Quote from: "Big Jake"
Hey Jlu,
Quote
Mannings statistics -are- absolutely amazing this year. No one can argue that point with any credibility


Cough*Barry Bonds Offensive Stats*Cough

Yeah, but Manning isn't hitting the roids to make the long bombs.  biggrin :wink:
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« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2004, 10:04:32 PM »

Quote from: "JLu"
Until Manning wins it all, he's just another Marino.


"Just another Marino"?!?

Dan Marino is arguably the greatest QB to ever play professional football.  There are *maybe* 4 or 5 QBs that you could bring to the debate without getting laughed at (hint:  Elway, Montana, Unitas spring to mind).

In my mind, it's between Marino and Elway, then Montana and Unitas.  But I can at least comprehend someone arguing one of the other three to the top.

But to call Manning "just another Marino" is insane.  Peyton Manning, regardless of what he does this season - isn't Dan Marino yet.  He might be better, he might be worse.  Manning is just now getting to his prime.  Let's wait a few years before comparing him to someone with the stature of Marino (who will most likely be a first ballot HOF'er).
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« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2004, 10:16:14 PM »

Don't quite get the Bonds reference.  I just agreed that Manning is indeed having an incredible year.

I see there being two types of QBs.  Those who lead their team to a Superbowl victory -- which is the only thing that matters in the NFL -- and those who do not.  Manning being just another Marino was not so much meant as a slam; just the comparison is going to be made because he as of yet has not won that big game.  And he arguably has more weapons around him than Marino did.

I admit that I have a total overwhelming loathing of Marino which I cannot explain; but I'm not going to try to bait anyone who may like him.
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Jeff
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« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2004, 10:59:33 PM »

Barry Sanders. No superbowl wins.  Sometimes, great players just don't have enough around them to win it all, or they have bad luck on the way... or in Marino's case, got there, and went up against the other great QB of all time.

No superbowl wins doesn't mean they are a lesser player, IMO. Rating someone by Superbowl wins puts someone like Terry Bradshaw in an undeserved lofty position. He was surrounded by gobs of talent ... WR's, backs, offensive line, and one of the best defenses ever assembled on a gridiron. Manning or Marino would've won at least 4 titles playing on that team.
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« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2004, 01:52:05 AM »

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Superbowl wins are a team achievement.


I LOVE this argument!!

Superbowls are team wins but games in October against the Jags rest in the hands of only one man! This is funny.

Beat the Lions and Manning dominated the game and singlehandedly! Lose to the Pats and it's a team game again!

They/he are/is 3-3 on the road. He should leave the team at home half the time.
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Jeff
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« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2004, 02:03:49 AM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Quote
Superbowl wins are a team achievement.


I LOVE this argument!!

Superbowls are team wins but games in October against the Jags rest in the hands of only one man!


mmm, those words you put in my mouth are yummy! slywink

What exactly are you arguing about Manning? that he's just mediocre? All I ever said in this thread is that he's a great QB, having an excellent season.  

Of course ALL games (October or January) are a team achievement. Who said different?

Ok so Manning has Edgerine James and Marvin Harrison. Woot! Montana had Roger Craig, Dwight Clark and Jerry friggin' Rice in his prime.

Best I can tell is that you're saying Manning is nothing special, and only throws 300 yds and 4 TD's a game because he's playing bad defenses (?) I really don't get your point here.
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Devil
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« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2004, 03:21:48 AM »

It's not you, Jeff. I have this argument with RM9 almost weekly.  :wink:

Manning wins games, the team loses them.  :wink:

The Indy defense let up an average of 17.5ppg in all of their wins. Only 5 teams in the league average less offense than that per game, which leads me to believe that all but 5 teams should have won those games anyway. They may not have won them by 59 points, they may have had to make last minute drives, but they would have won them.  

There is no doubt he's a good QB but what I'm saying is that there are a few guys in the league right now who have done more with far less to work with.

The purely hypothetical, all things being equal I would take other QBs ahead of Manning if I needed to win a game.

Records be damned!!! :wink:
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« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2004, 03:22:17 AM »

Elway carrer Superbowl Stats:

2-3 Record
76/152 passing for 1128 yds
3 TD's 8 INT's

Awesome!

In all fairness, he did run 21 times for 86 yards and 4 TD's.

Manning is having a great year.  He might win a Superbowl or two like Elway eventually did or he might be "another Marino."

Trent Dilfer won a Superbowl.  Does that mean he is a better QB than Dan Marino or Jim Kelly were?

Hell, I guess I might as well say it: Eli Manning sucks.

Oh yeah, Joe Montana owns.
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« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2004, 03:35:23 AM »

Devil's just jealous Jeff because he wishes Brady were half as good slywink

Quote
There is no doubt he's a good QB but what I'm saying is that there are a few guys in the league right now who have done more with far less to work with.


I mean stuff like this is just nonsensical. The point Jeff made originally is that *nobody* has done more at the QB position than Manning this year. Nobody. Let alone 'done more with less'. I am sure you somehow now think that Stokely and Wayne are top tier recievers better than Jerry Rice because Manning is moving the ball around and scoring a ton with both of them. But when Brady does the same thing he is a genius QB who is working with absolute crap.

The simple fact is, football games are won and lost by teams. Pick any player at any position in the NFL as the best player at that position and it might be true. It doesn't mean their *team* is going to win consistently. But given the stats Manning has put up this year it is pretty hard to argue with the fact that he is at this moment the best QB in the NFL, and quite possibly having the best year by any QB, ever. We'll know in a few more weeks. But it is patently obvious that the defensive is the limiting factor for that Colts team. Manning has taken a couple of unknown WRs and turned them into studs. His offensive line is dependable and gives good pass protection but they are not overpowering (ever watched Indy on 4th and inches? They get stopped a hell of a lot). There isn't a single QB playing in the NFL right now you could put in that offense who would put up numbers even close to what Manning has done, or carry that team to as many wins.

There's a reason he is getting paid so much freaking money - because people who judge football talent for a *living* realize he is the best QB out there and they want to keep him. I don't know why you hate the guy so much Devil, but I'm sure there is a good councilor in the yellow pages who can help you slywink Do you hate Marino too?
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« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2004, 03:52:07 AM »

Quote
But given the stats Manning has put up this year it is pretty hard to argue with the fact that he is at this moment the best QB in the NFL

It is very easy to argue against.  Manning has put a lot of those TDs and yards up against poor defenses while playing in domes.  Manning's entire offense is loaded with talent.  Stokely and Wayne are good and made much better by Harrison's presence.  Look what happened to the Vikings when Moss went down.  The Vikings great 2nd/3rd receivers disappeared, as did Culpeppers big stats.  Remember, Culpepper was on a better pace then Manning before Moss' injury.

Manning now has to play some better defenses.  Maybe Manning will have to play a game on the road in the rain or snow, like other QBs.  

Put Trent Green, Bulger, McNair, Culpepper or some of the other QBs in the league in the Indy offensive system, and you'll get big stats.  Maybe not as big as Manning, but certainly up there.  

Incredible offensive line + great receiver and solid secondary receivers + great RB + extremely pass friendly offensive system + dome play or fair weather play = big stats

All I know is that it wasn't the rest of Manning's team throwing those three interceptions to the Patriots last year.  It was Manning, against a pretty vanilla defense, who made the bad choices and cost the Colts the game.  

When Manning wins some important games, then we can say he is the best in the league, or argue about it.  While Manning continues to dominate the Bears, who cares?

Wins and championships by teams matter, who cares about single stats?  I guess the people that care are the fans of the teams that don't win the big game, and need something to grab on to.

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« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2004, 01:51:17 PM »

Just give me Favre, over anybody else that has ever played football!!!!No player has ever done more with less.  20 TDs a year for 11 years, throwing to the most mediocre WR crew spanning that time.
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« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2004, 02:10:26 PM »

Quote from: "Scott"
It was Manning, against a pretty vanilla defense, who made the bad choices and cost the Colts the game.


Err... you just called the Patriot's defense 'pretty vanilla'? And somehow the rest of what you said is supposed to be believable after that? biggrin
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« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2004, 02:55:41 PM »

Quote
There's a reason he is getting paid so much freaking money - because people who judge football talent for a *living* realize he is the best QB out there and they want to keep him. I don't know why you hate the guy so much Devil, but I'm sure there is a good councilor in the yellow pages who can help you  Do you hate Marino too?


I'll take these one at a time.

The whole 'people who judge football for a living' thing is only half right. Should we go over the list of mistakes, HORRIBLE MISTAKES, people who judge football for a living have made? :wink:

I, by no means hate the guy nor do I think he isn't the MVP of the league this year. He HAS TO BE! He's putting up silly numbers.

If my choice at QB is a guy who can lead me to a win, down by 4 with 2 minutes left and no timeouts or a guy who puts up 50 points on Detroit, I'll take the clutch guy every day.

He's a stat machine.

I hated Marino out of respect and there's the difference. Marino NEVER had a running game and he still scared the crap out of me.

If I'm a playoff team in the AFC, the Colts and Manning are the least of my worries.
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« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2004, 03:01:39 PM »

Quote from: "Buldrhm"
Just give me Favre, over anybody else that has ever played football!!!!No player has ever done more with less.  20 TDs a year for 11 years, throwing to the most mediocre WR crew spanning that time.


I'd say the Iggles WR corps over the last dozen years or so, is the most mediocre.  At least on a contending team. THose fools sucked.

D. Driver now and S. Sharpe back in the day, are/were very good WRs.  No, they arent Moss or Owens or RIce, but they'd be/have been the #1 WR on a number of teams.   But as great as Favre is, and he is great, he's still only won one SB and that wasnt until he got....wait for it.....a RB and a defense!  Holy crap!   What a co-winky-dink!  Same goes for my all-time favorite, Elway.  Amazing what a T. Davis in the backfield and a defense that can stop someone every once in awhile, will do for an All-World QB.


Football is, BY FAR, the most team-oriented game going.  You dont have to look any farther than the Patriots to know that's true.  THeyve got solid talent all-around, a damn good coach, and a great leader in Brady.  But there are few, if any, superstars on that team and yet they still managed to win 2 SBs(while somehow missing the playoffs in between...but I digress).

It doesnt help the perception that QBs win and lose games all by themselves in a vaccum, when the "experts" fall all over themselves to ram that idea down our throats.  But then they are trying to appeal to the widest audience and make the game(and more importantly themselves and their broadcast) more accessible to the masses.  SO they boil a complex team game down to individual matchups and then tell us WR 'A' or QB 'B' is *THE* reason why Team 'C' is the winner.  It's simple-minded, disingenious, and pretty much a lie.  BUt then it's also smart marketing.

To say there are a half-dozen other QBs in the league that could put up Payton's #s in the Indy offense is 1)stating the obvious and 2)not much of a counter-argument that Peyton isn't a good QB.   All that does is point out there are other good QBs in the league(already knew that..thanks).
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Scott
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« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2004, 04:05:46 PM »

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Err... you just called the Patriot's defense 'pretty vanilla'? And somehow the rest of what you said is supposed to be believable after that?

Actually, if you had watched the game, you would understand what I meant.  The Patriots didn't do anything fancy that game.  They rushed 3 and 4 men, with few blitzes.  There weren't many fancy schemes that day.  The Pats played the game pretty straight up, and Manning folded.  Law made some great plays, but Manning made some pretty bad rushed throws.  The Patriots were able to get decent pressure on him, but more often then not Manning got rattled.

I've seen the Patriots do some pretty crazy things, but in the AFC championship game they really didn't.  They played physical and hard, and rattled Manning.   The Pats offense also moved the ball fairly well, and put a bit of pressure on Manning to score.  Honestly, Brady could have done better and really put pressure on, but Brady threw a bad pick in the end zone.

The Patriots are a good defense, and can scheme with the best of them, but in a lot of cases, the Pats talent and the players knowledge of their assignments and football are what win.  Belechick is a great coach, but so are lots of others like Dungy.  

Until Manning doesn't get rattled (choke) in big games, he can't really be considered the best.
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« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2004, 04:40:35 PM »

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Err... you just called the Patriot's defense 'pretty vanilla'? And somehow the rest of what you said is supposed to be believable after that?

Actually, if you had watched the game, you would understand what I meant.  The Patriots didn't do anything fancy that game.  They rushed 3 and 4 men, with few blitzes.  There weren't many fancy schemes that day.  The Pats played the game pretty straight up, and Manning folded.  Law made some great plays, but Manning made some pretty bad rushed throws.  The Patriots were able to get decent pressure on him, but more often then not Manning got rattled.

I've seen the Patriots do some pretty crazy things, but in the AFC championship game they really didn't.  They played physical and hard, and rattled Manning.   The Pats offense also moved the ball fairly well, and put a bit of pressure on Manning to score.  Honestly, Brady could have done better and really put pressure on, but Brady threw a bad pick in the end zone.

The Patriots are a good defense, and can scheme with the best of them, but in a lot of cases, the Pats talent and the players knowledge of their assignments and football are what win.  Belechick is a great coach, but so are lots of others like Dungy.  

Until Manning doesn't get rattled (choke) in big games, he can't really be considered the best.


Well you hit the nail on the head as to why the Pats won that game and the Colts didnt.  The Pats defense is good enough to get pressure on the QB without having to blitz.  If your front four(or 3 plus a LB) are good enought to generate pressure on the opposing QB, and you have a decent offense, most times in the NFL, you win.  

You absolutely DON'T blitz the top-tier QBs in this league simply b/c they are too good, and theyll beat the blitz  So you hope your front 4 do the job, and drop 7 into coverage(usually giving you double coverage on almost every receiver in the pattern).  If they Pats had blitzed Manning, theyd have played into his hands by 1)admitting they were scared of him and 2)allowing guys like Harrison to end up in single coverage.  The Pat's coaches are damn good, and they know this stuff already.  THey also know theyve got some pretty good ballhawking players in their secondary.  So they get the best of both worlds; pressure with only 4 rushing the passer, and playmakers in the secondary who know theyve got backup if they decide to gamble and go for the INT.

Im not saying Manning didnt play well that game; he didnt.  But then neither did the rest of the Colts, and the Pats played a great game.  Hell they're the best team in the league, so thats not exactly unexpected.


Roger Staubach never did manage to beat the Steelers, but the dude is in the HOF.  Just b/c one team 'has your number'(and it wasnt even that, the STeelers were just better...just as the Pats are better than the Colts), doesnt mean you arent a great player.  To point to one game and say this is why this guy sucks, vs. a 7 year career body of work that says he doesnt, just doesnt hold water IMHO.

But then that's why sports are so much fun.   biggrin
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« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2004, 05:41:23 PM »

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To point to one game and say this is why this guy sucks, vs. a 7 year career body of work that says he doesnt, just doesnt hold water IMHO.

I don't think Manning sucks.  I think he is very good, just not the best at his position or a great player yet.  If Manning had played well that game, and still lost, it'd be different.  I just haven't seen Manning step up in pressure moments yet.  His career dating back to Tennessee has shown Manning to be great against lesser foes, and not able to beat the better teams in the big games.  When he starts elevating his game against the best, then I'll reconsider.
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