The 'EngineNo9 Kicked Us Out of the Other Thread' Buffy/Angel Discussion Thread

[CeeKay]

(to continue the discussion)

Season 5 has a pretty rough episode in it.

Spoiler for Hiden:

The Body

after that I don't think there is really anything too emotional.

[hepcat]

Great, then let's get down to it:

Breaking Bad...who's watching?

[PR_GMR]

EngineNo9 is so powerful. 

[EngineNo9]

EngineNo9 is so powerful. 

Not the first time I've heard that.   



(ok, yes it is...)

[Chaz]

Obviously you're not paying your girls enough.

[Gratch]

Just a quick plea to please be sure to tag spoilers.  This is a Joss Whedon show after all, so I'm reasonably confident not everyone is going to make it through to the end.  I just don't want to know who. 

I should be wrapping up Season 2 tonight...just have the final 2-part episode to go.  I find it amusing how so many of the episodes this season have basically taken a horror 'genre' and made an show out of it.  So far I've seen Poltergeist, Nightmare on Elm Street, Creature from the Black Lagoon...hell, even Bewitched makes an appearance.

[hepcat]

Obviously you're not paying your girls enough.

girls?

[Gratch]

Finished Season 2 yesterday, and while I saw that ending coming from a mile away, I still thought they handled it very well.  For some reason I thought the interaction between Spike and Buffy's mom was one of the funniest things I've ever seen.     Curious to see whether Angel

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comes back as good Angel or bad Angel.  I'm guessing he has to return, since he's still listed as a main character in the credits

Not crazy about how they started Season 3 though (through episode 2).  I get that everyone is

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pissed at Buffy for leaving, but having Xander go into uber-douchebag mode seems very much out of character.

.  I hope they don't just sweep it all under the rug after this episode and say "OK, everyone is hunky dory now!".

[Bullwinkle]

I'm so ready to watch this again.

I've been waiting for my daughter to be old enough, but that's at least five years off and probably more like eight.  Maybe we'll crack the DVDs open again over the holiday.

[CeeKay]

Not crazy about how they started Season 3 though (through episode 2).  I get that everyone is

Spoiler for Hiden:

pissed at Buffy for leaving, but having Xander go into uber-douchebag mode seems very much out of character.

.  I hope they don't just sweep it all under the rug after this episode and say "OK, everyone is hunky dory now!".

don't forget that

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Willow was put in danger because of Buffy refusing to finish off Angel  when she had multuiple chances.  all I can say is the way he is acting might make more sense the further you get into season 3.

[Gratch]

don't forget that

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Willow was put in danger because of Buffy refusing to finish off Angel  when she had multuiple chances.  all I can say is the way he is acting might make more sense the further you get into season 3.

True.  Figured more backstory would show up this season...just seemed rather jarring to start off that way.

While Charisma Carpenter is great eye candy, I don't find myself warming to Cordelia at all.  I thought it was pretty awkward how she just kinda jumped into the gang during season 2, and her basically useless character is quite annoying.  Why couldn't they have

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killed her and kept Jenny Calendar?

[CeeKay]

While Charisma Carpenter is great eye candy, I don't find myself warming to Cordelia at all.  I thought it was pretty awkward how she just kinda jumped into the gang during season 2, and her basically useless character is quite annoying.  Why couldn't they have

Spoiler for Hiden:

killed her and kept Jenny Calendar?

she gets a bigger role after season 3, which reminds me-  put Angel in your queue because it started running alongside season 4 and there were some crossover episodes.

[Chaz]

I think at the point where you're at, you're not really supposed to like Cordelia yet.  I wound up liking her a lot, but I'm not really sure where I turned the corner on her.  And yeah, Angel is definitely required viewing, though I don't know that it's necessary to interleave them like they're supposed to be.  It's probably easier with both shows being on Netflix now.  It was too much of a pain when I was watching them on DVD.

On where you're at in Buffy:

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Don't forget that they're still irrational teenagers.  Not only did Buffy start dating Angel, who nobody particularly liked, especially Xander who was into Buffy and really jealous of Angel, but then they were all proved right when the relationship directly led to Angel going all dark side which cause a whole heap of trouble including the death of Jenny.  Then, it took Buffy forever to finally take Angel out at the last second, which again caused a lot of trouble and put everyone at risk, and immediately afterward, she skips town, leaving the gang to cover for her absence.

So basically, I don't think it's totally irrational that Xander is pretty pissed.  He's still harboring feelings for her, and he's got some pretty strong conflicting emotions going on.  He's also never been the most rational dude anyway.

[Bullwinkle]

Spoiler for Hiden:

Jenny Calendar 

Cordelia does get better (before they go batshit crazy with her character in Angel, anyway), but I liked her more as a nemesis.  However, I don't think Charisma Carpenter is a good actress, really.

[hepcat]

I think that's a given.  She's eye candy, not talent. 

You want a combo of eye candy and talent?  Give Fred a shot in Angel.  Especially the last season.

[TiLT]

Just a quick plea to please be sure to tag spoilers.  This is a Joss Whedon show after all, so I'm reasonably confident not everyone is going to make it through to the end.  I just don't want to know who. 

Seems you're out of luck the way everyone keeps talking about who lives throughout the shows. I know some people don't really see that as spoilery, but if I hadn't already watched both shows to the very end I would have been very annoyed at reading stuff like that.

[Chaz]

Well, I don't think it's especially unfair when there's an entire series named after one character and every single DVD season has a cast shot featuring many of the main characters. 

[TiLT]

I may be more extreme than most in this regard, but I don't even look at DVD covers for seasons beyond the point where I'm currently watching in a series, precisely for that reason.

[Chaz]

While I understand the sentiment, at a certain point in the quest to not reveal any spoilers, you stop being able to discuss things at all.

[TiLT]

That doesn't really make any sense. It was perfectly possible to discuss seasons 1 and 2 of Buffy before the rest of the seasons were released, just as it's perfectly possible to discuss seasons 1 and 2 of Buffy today without bringing later seasons into the discussion (and use spoiler tags if something from later seasons is worth mentioning). But don't mind me, I'm not being spoiled here. I was just pointing out that several people in this discussion are disregarding Gratch's request to spoiler tag the fates of characters in the shows. I enjoyed Buffy and Angel a lot, so I get sympathetic with others who are about to do the same and hate to see their experience being lessened with unnecessary foreknowledge.

[Bullwinkle]

That would be akin to discussing Lost's first two seasons only, while still having the cumulative knowledge of the whole series at your disposal.  It's not exactly possible, nor is it ideal.  Not that I'd like to discuss Lost with you again.  

However, looking over the thread, it seems that people are being respectful.  At first, I wasn't sure what you were even talking about.  Is it my comment about Cordelia as a nemesis?  That was in the first season.  Is it the vague comment about the odd direction they took her character?  That was a purposefully vague comment.  Is there some other comment that I'm missing?


And Hep, you're dead-on right about Fred.  She had depths that were definitely not apparent when she first showed up.  Which I guess is what bugs me about Charisma Carpenter.  Joss has shown that he's good at finding attractive, talented actors for his shows.  She only seems to fit one of those.

[Gratch]

While I appreciate Tilt's concern, I think everyone has been fine with the discussion so far.  I basically already knew (well, am assuming) that all the main cast survives, as I've seen them mentioned in various spin-offs and have seen the occasional reference about the show over the years.  It's not fair to expect folks to stay completely, 100% spoiler-free when discussing a show that I am very late to the party on.  As longs as folks throw any major spoiler-y stuff in tags, it's all good.

I'm mostly just happy folks actually still want to chat about it.  Getting insight from those who know how everything ends up makes it a little more fun for those of us going through for the first time. 

[Gratch]

Almost midway through Season 3 (just finished the "Wish" episode).  While some of the episodes have been entertaining by themselves, I think this season has really suffered from a couple things (will just stick it all in spoilers)

Spoiler for Hiden:

1.  Not having a central villain.  There was an overarching theme of battling The Master in Season 1 and Angel in Season 2, and without having a main focal point, it just seems like things are kinda drifting.  Hoping that it gets a jolt now that Spike has turned up again, because it's been kinda blah so far.

2.  The whole Willow/Xander thing was laaaaaaaame.  It seemed completely awkward for Willow to go from pining after Xander, to finding someone else she really likes (Oz), then jumping back to Xander...same for Xander and Cordelia.  I'm not sure if it's the intent of the writers, but I find myself liking Xander less and less as the series progresses.  Dude just seems like a total douchebag.

3.  Faith is completely obnoxious - partly because of the way she is written (the tough-guy act), but mostly Eliza Dushku is such a god-awful actress.  Holy crap, she is bad.

4.  I'm guessing that the writers knew they were going to spinning Angel off to his own show at this point, as they really seem to be minimizing him.  I totally get why they have to (and he and Buffy's relationship has been very well written), but it sucks to lose such a cool character. 

Still, the writing has been very solid and it's been interesting to see how these characters are developing, even if I don't really like the direction they're taking it.  But who knows, maybe I'm just completely missing the boat and things will take big turns for the rest of the season.

I also find it amusing that they suddenly decided that it's OK for the characters to show some of the aftereffects of their battles.  They would all get the crap completely kicked out of them the first two seasons, but no one would ever show so much as a scratch.  All of a sudden, they all have black eyes, split lips, etc after big fights.   

[MonkeyFinger]

A not spoilery comment on your second point, but just in case:

Spoiler for Willow:

Not to worry, in the upcoming seasons Willow makes her choice.

[CeeKay]

on point one:

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I thought the Mayor was the central villain in season 3.

[Bullwinkle]

TO MF:

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As for your points, you're not enjoying some things that are fan favorites, so I'm a little worried. 

Non-spoilery spoiler:

Spoiler for Hiden:

I didn't realize Dushku was a bad actress until much later.  Faith was such a great character, so well written, it's hard to tell.  I wonder if things about her that seemed cool at the time come off dated now.

I don't remember ever having a problem with Xander, but it seems like he's been rubbing you the wrong way for a while.  I fear he's never going to work for you.

The Xander/Willow thing was a necessary moment so that she could realize it wasn't going to work.  It was lame, but I think it was meant to be.  Assuming I'm remembering correctly.

The writing should be able to pull you through the rough patches.  Just don't give up

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when they get to college next season.

  If the mayor isn't doing it for you (loved him, BTW), then good luck with

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Adam and that whole under-campus army thing.

[MonkeyFinger]

Non-spoilery spoiler:

Spoiler for Hiden:

If the mayor isn't doing it for you (loved him, BTW), then good luck with

Spoiler for Hiden:

Adam and that whole under-campus army thing.

Oh my gawd, I completely forgot about:

Spoiler for things best left unremembered:

"Adam and that whole under-campus army thing"

Thanks for bringing that all back. 

[Gratch]

A not spoilery comment on your second point, but just in case:

Spoiler for Willow:

Not to worry, in the upcoming seasons Willow makes her choice.

Yeah, I already knew about how Willow ends up...maybe that's part of the reason why all this nonsense seems kinds anticlimactic.

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I thought the Mayor was the central villain in season 3.

If so, they certainly aren't doing a very good job of making him terribly menacing.  He just seems like a goofball, rather than someone who poses an legitimate threat.  Same with the whole techno-vamp dude.  Then again, there's still a long way to go in this season, so that could easily change.  One other thought about villains: 

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While I loved seeing Spike come back (seriously, that dude needs waaaay more screen time), the whole mopey, drunk vampire thing was a bit over the top...even if it did provide one of the funniest moments so far when he was crying to Buffy's mom about Drusilla at the kitchen table.  Was very glad to see he got his shit together and back to the ol' ultraviolence at the end of that episode.  Hope that continues.

I don't remember ever having a problem with Xander, but it seems like he's been rubbing you the wrong way for a while.  I fear he's never going to work for you.

I actually think he's probably the best actor on the show and his character is very funny, just not crazy about the way he handles things with the womenfolk.  He's come off as kind of a sleaze for the last little while, but that could change.

Spoiler for Hiden:

I didn't realize Dushku was a bad actress until much later.  Faith was such a great character, so well written, it's hard to tell.  I wonder if things about her that seemed cool at the time come off dated now.

Spoiler for Hiden:

I think a lot will depend on what they choose to do with her.  It seems like they just kind of had her barge in without much of a reason ("Hey, let's throw in another chick who can kick ass!"), so she seems somewhat out of place.   I'll reserve judgement on her until I see what role she plays.  I'm biased against her as an actress from the get-go, which isn't helping my opinion much.  Will try to keep a more open mind. 

All that said, I'm still really enjoying the show.  Hell, I spent my entire Friday and Saturday nights doing nothing but watching it.

[Gratch]

BTW, is there anyone reading this thread - besides me - who hasn't already watched the show?  Maybe the overuse of these spoiler tags isn't totally necessary...

[MonkeyFinger]

I was wondering the same thing.

Reading this has me seriously considering going back through all seven seasons again. 

[Bullwinkle]

Spoiler for Hiden:

I didn't realize Dushku was a bad actress until much later.  Faith was such a great character, so well written, it's hard to tell.  I wonder if things about her that seemed cool at the time come off dated now.

Spoiler for Hiden:

I think a lot will depend on what they choose to do with her.  It seems like they just kind of had her barge in without much of a reason ("Hey, let's throw in another chick who can kick ass!"), so she seems somewhat out of place.   I'll reserve judgement on her until I see what role she plays.  I'm biased against her as an actress from the get-go, which isn't helping my opinion much.  Will try to keep a more open mind. 

Re: Dushku -

Spoiler for Hiden:

Having her barge in was all about character.  To make her completely different than Buffy.  She comes bursting onto the scene, not so much like a breath of fresh air as a tornado.  I would say hindsight is definitely hurting here, 'cause Faith was frickin' awesome and had us all wondering what the hell "five by five" meant.

[ravenvii]

On Willow:

Spoiler for Hiden:

I didn't realize that...

Spoiler for Hiden:

Spoilers can be put within another...

Spoiler for Hiden:

Spoiler tag, which can be put into yet another...

Spoiler for Hiden:

tag. Oh, and...

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Willow goes all lesbo later on, and

Spoiler for Hiden:

Xander continues to be a sort of a...

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douchebag, but comes on his own in...

Spoiler for Hiden:

season 7, if...

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I recall correctly, anyway.

Spoiler for Hiden:

8-) <--- I'm standing on a pyramid of spoilerness!

[Bullwinkle]

Spoiler for Hiden:

Kneel before Raven VIi's pyramid!

[Gratch]

I stand corrected on Faith.  She just got a lot more interesting after the whole murder subplot.

[Chaz]

That'll teach you to be a doubter. 

[Bullwinkle]

I stand corrected on Faith.  She just got a lot more interesting after the whole murder subplot.

So I guess the Spoilers thing doesn't apply to you?   

[Gratch]

I stand corrected on Faith.  She just got a lot more interesting after the whole murder subplot.

So I guess the Spoilers thing doesn't apply to you?   

Well, "murder" is pretty vague, especially in a show like this. 

Finished Season 3 last night...will have some thoughts later.

[Bullwinkle]

I stand corrected on Faith.  She just got a lot more interesting after the whole murder subplot.

So I guess the Spoilers thing doesn't apply to you?   

Well, "murder" is pretty vague, especially in a show like this. 

Finished Season 3 last night...will have some thoughts later.

I was just teasing, anyway.

[rittchard]

I just got carpal tunnel thanks to raven's spoiler pyramid.


Oh yeah, and long live Buffy!!!!

[Gratch]

Random Season 3 thoughts: 

Spoiler for Hiden:

While I thought it started off rather slow, I ended up really liking it.  Felt like things were just sort of coasting up until Faith murdered the dude and switched sides, then things got really interesting.  They did a very good job of taking a seemingly shallow, one dimensional character and turning her into something very complex.  I do still think that they should have put more of an emphasis on the mayor from the beginning, as he never really seemed to be very threatening until the season was almost done.   Was sad to see Angel go though.  Emo-ness aside, dude is a pretty bad-ass character.  The writing continues to be solid, and the characters are progressing in some very interesting ways. 

Random Season 4 thoughts: 

Spoiler for Hiden:

Between some long plane rides and cancelled meetings, I've been watching far more Buffy than I probably should.  Through Episode 9 on Season 4.  This one feels very different, and not just for the obvious (i.e. high school to college) reasons.  It feels a bit like they're steering less away from the occult angle, and more towards the "action" angle, as well as upping the yuk factor.  It's certainly still fun, but has taken on a decidedly different tonw.  Not sure how crazy I am about the whole "military initiative" thing, but I'll wait to see what they do with it.  Great to see Spike back, but Riley - while likeable enough - can't even hold a candle to Angel.  This season has seen some of the funniest writing so far - the "mini-demon" and "Buffy/Spike wedding" episodes had me absolutely rolling.  It also had the worst episode - by far - of the entire series, the "Beer" one where they turned into cavemen.  Wow, that was bad.  I was very surprised at Oz' exit.   It seemed very sudden...did Seth Green have another project he wanted out for?  I like that they've made Xander less of a jerk, and they whole Anya relationship cracks me up.  Figures that dude would hook up with a vengeance demon. 

Also watched the first episode of Angel.  Not thrilled about Cordelia, but will certainly give it a look.