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Author Topic: Terry Francona's Cry For Help  (Read 2105 times)
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Devil
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« on: October 19, 2004, 02:20:06 AM »

From taking out Arroyo, to having Belhorn bunt instead of Reese (or playing instead if him), to ORTIZ STEALING(!!!!) it's Grady 2 at Fenway tonight.

I'm sure I'm even missing a few gems too.

God forbid they win this game and everyone forgets what this idiot did tonight.
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Tebunker
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2004, 02:24:09 AM »

Leave it up to Tito to put the Sawx in the worst Position... who the hell knows though... who the hell knows...


You know though, looking at the Ortiz steal... he was safe... Should've never happened to begin with, but he was safe.
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Devil
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2004, 02:47:16 AM »

Yeah - Ortiz was safe but that's no excuse. Even if he was called safe it's dumb.

He just trumped himself: It's clear Varitek can't catch Wakefield. 3 passed balls almost cost them the game. Varitek gets up in the bottom of the 13th, grounds out and then comes back out to catch Wake again!!!!

Could Reese be any worse than Belhorn? Could he? I mean really. If I was Pokey (or anyone but Belhorn) I'd take a bat to Francona.
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Devil
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2004, 03:04:35 AM »

Ortiz saves them two nights in a row. Surprised Terry didn't have him up there bunting!!!


They won in spite of Francona again!!
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2004, 03:14:19 AM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Ortiz saves them two nights in a row. Surprised Terry didn't have him up there bunting!!!


They won in spite of Francona again!!


Ortiz is the man!
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Tebunker
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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2004, 03:17:45 AM »

All I have to say is....











I BELIEVE
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« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2004, 03:22:10 AM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Ortiz saves them two nights in a row. Surprised Terry didn't have him up there bunting!!!


They won in spite of Francona again!!


:roll:

Was it just me, or did I see Nomar AND Drew Bledsoe in the Red Sox dugout whispering things to Francona all night long?

Nothing like blaming Francona for a Sox win! Maybe they'll lose if he does a good job tomorrow.

Seriously, he's no Joe Torre, we all know. But I don't think he deserves the unbridled spite you have towards these sports figures. Once he leaves Arroyo in too long you can hate him, but I think he's done a pretty good job the last couple games.
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Devil
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2004, 01:38:17 PM »

Koz - Are you the ultimate suck-up or just a Boston Yahoo?

If you live in the Boston area you are only allowed to point out the faults of other teams and not the ones in your home town?

You're not  going to get blind loyalty and hero worship from me.

As far as Francona goes - YES! win or lose, you can make good or bad moves.

If he pinch-hits Pokey for Ortiz in the 14th and he wins the game is it a good move because it worked out? If he pinch-runs Roberts for Nixon and he gets thrown out is it a bad move because it didn't work out?
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Koz
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« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2004, 02:07:57 PM »

Please, with the amount of vitriol you spew towards Boston teams I seriously question whether you're just not a New York (or NJ) fan in disguise. Well you aren't in disguise on one count.

I won't get blind loyalty, but I'll sure get blind hatred. You seem to have some irrational dislike of various local sports figures, and no matter what it is they do it's always something bad.

Francona is not a great manager (he's certainly no Torre), but he is pretty decent and is better than you give him credit for, IMO. He's made some terrible calls this season, sure, but not in the last two games.

Arroyo was taken out because he has to start a potential Game 7. Or do you want to see Lowe go up for that one? Wakefield sure seemed like he knew what he was doing. I'm surprised you aren't questioning Tito's decision to throw out Arroyo in the first place after how he got shelled a couple days ago.

Bellhorn is a professional baseball player, he should know how to bunt (and he should give some tips to Damon once he figures out how).

The Ortiz play was supposed to be a hit and run. Mientciewicz is a good contact hitter but he got the signals mixed up and so he didn't swing. AND Ortiz was safe. How is that Francona's fault?
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Devil
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« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2004, 02:54:29 PM »

You can question my allegience, which is fine, and typical of Boston sports fans who feel geographically tied and bound to who they must feel they have to root for.

Do I need to be a Bruins fan because I live 15 miles from the Fleet Center? Is that the rules? If I fly out to Arizona for a week do I have to become a D-Backs fan for the time that I'm out there? I'm a big boy and can make decisions on who I'll be rooting for based on things other than geography. This isn't the 40's where you only got the news on your home team on the radio or in the paper. I couldn't tell you how many times I've disagreed with the Devils organization and they are my favorite team in any sport. It's just that there isn't anyone out here that care about the Devils enough to have these conversations. I watch EVERY Devils game on TV. Where you live should have little impact on your rooting interests.

I don't really hate anyone in sports. I'd some to fail and others to succeed but I'm sure they're all decent enought people. I think hate might be a little strong.

You should be happy now. The 3 guys I want to see fail now are in SD, Buffalo and Chicago. They aren't in Boston so are they fair game now? Or Do I have to still root for Tony Clark now because he played for the Sox? What about Gordon? He still holds the Sox record for saves?

Back to the game:
I have no probelm with him bringing in Arroyo or Wakefield but I thought you could have saved someone by letting Arroyo go a bit longer. He's already in there and did pretty well. Why not leave him in?

Hit and run with a guy who barely plays and a guy who can't run? OK. Was he staying out of a double play? Trying to move ORTIZ from 1st to 3rd on a single? As for him being safe - Please. Since he was safe you want him running tonight? That's plain dumb.

What about Wake and Tek coming back for the 14th? I know he said he didn't want to have Belli coming in and getting hurt but what about the times he has one of them DH?

Belhorn should be able to bunt. Not Francona's fault, but couldn't you agree that it might have been time to bring Pokey in? How could he be worse?
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Koz
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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2004, 03:17:18 PM »

If anyone's worse at batting than Bellhorn, it's Pokey. No offense to the guy, I love his defense, but he can't swing the bat. No idea how good he is at bunting, but from watching Damon bunt, I doubt the Sox as a whole are any good. The whole Moneyball thing coming back to bite them in the ass (of which Francona is partly to blame, yes, but not the only culprit).

I would have put in Mirabelli probably. He has proven power off the bench and especially against the Yankees. I will admit I disagreed with that decision (or lack of).

The ESPN talking heads love to second guess Francona, and they had some rather weird suggestions.

First was subbing in Pokey for Bellhorn the entire game. As much as I don't like Bellhorn (nicknamed Blowhard), he's got more pop than Pokey. And I don't think the Red Sox will win any more of their games on pitching (unless Schilling returns from the grave).

Second was putting in Mirabelli in for Varitek. This could be viable, especially since Mirabelli has been on fire in Yankee Stadium (the only Sox player I'm sure). Varitek is the leader though, and I trust his defense much more than Mirabelli's (with the exception of Wakefield as pitcher).

The third was kind of silly: taking Damon out of the lead-off spot. OK, he's struggling, sure, but who else are you going to put there? Dave Roberts? I don't think so. They suggested Mueller, which is ridiculous because he's shown he only hits in the 8 or 9 spot. Remember when he was batting second earlier this year? He sucked. Damon is simply our only leadoff hitter and he needs to get something going.

I like having Cabrera in the second spot but I also kind of like having him down in the order with Mueller.

And am I the only one who has zero faith in Kevin Millar? He is the king of the infield popup. I know Mientciewicz isn't as good as Millar stat-wise, but he at least puts the bat on the ball, and he's about 8 billion times better a first baseman.

Think Schilling has it for tonight? If anyone could ignore a broken ankle and pitch a gem, it would be him. But with his Game 1 performance I'm not so sure. Still, I think he pitches well and the Sox win tonight, because how else can you setup yourself up for another heartbreaking loss? Who gets the Grady Little Goat Award this year?
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Devil
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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2004, 03:26:48 PM »

WOW!

I agree with EVERYTHING you said!  biggrin

I wouldn't move Damon. That's over the top.

Pokey for Belhorn has to be considered. If Pokey pulls an 0-4 is he really that much worse than what Belhorn's doing? At least you get some better defense.

LOVE the OC hitting second. Kudos to Terry for that one.

Like to see Schilling pull it out tonight like Pedro against the Indians in '99 but it's all gotta come down to the hitting. Manny needs to step it up, Millar Tek and Damon need to get something done. They need to jump all over them early and often. I can't handle another 73 hour game!
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Koz
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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2004, 03:47:56 PM »

I think it's a tossup about Pokey/Bellhorn. I personally can't stand Blowhard so I'd put Pokey in, but I also think Bellhorn could come up with a "where the hell did that come from?" performance.

Cabrera is a stud. While I don't have the disdain you have for Nomar, even I would have taken OC in a straight swap at this point. The fact we got Man-Cave-Itch and the roadrunner Roberts makes that trade even better. Even my dad (Nomar fan #1) thought the trade was a good one by the end.

Unfortunately Cabrera is a FA at season's end, and I think the Sox need to push to resign. I also think they NEED to resign Varitek. There are simply very few catchers of his caliber in existence.

And it seems that leaves Pedro the odd man out. I love Pedro, but I think his pride is going to cause his asking price to not fall very much from the $17 mil he gets now. He's only 32, yes, but he's not Schilling or Clemens... he's going to be done in the next five years I think. I still think Pedro is worth big bucks, but not more than the $12 mil Schilling is getting. And sadly I think some other club will be willing to pay him what he wants (and I do NOT think it will be the Yankees... they'll be busy buying Beltran).

I say the Sox go for a young, talented pitcher (or two). I like what I see from Arroyo, but they need to find another Santana (real easy to do I know).

Jeese, I didn't think I'd be talking so much about the Red Sox at this point. I think the fact that I can't fall back on the NHL season has a lot to do with it.

EDIT: I should also mention Thornton has 17 points in 11 games for his Swiss club. That's almost Neely-like!  :wink:
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Sam is the Man
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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2004, 04:25:32 PM »

Devil, just curious...who is it in SD that you want to see fail?
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Devil
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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2004, 04:27:53 PM »

LOVE Thornton, by the way. Likes to use his stick a little too much but he'd fit in well for on the Devils. I'm sure a little Grant Marshall for Thornton deal could be worked out. Save Harry and the Bruins a couple of bucks on salary too, so I'm sure they'll like that.  :wink:

Back to the Sox...

I'm tired of waiting for Blowhard to hit. He hasn't done it so it could be time for some speed and defense out there.

OC is a nice little player. Nomar is clearly better on paper but Drew puts up better numbers that Brady and we all know where that gets you. biggrin
Don't know if I'd keep him or not. Not for 4 years @ 8M if they think Hanley Ramirez is going to come up?

I don't know about Tek so much. If someone is willing to give him 10M, I'd think that you'd have to let him go and use MerryBelly until Shopak is ready. I'm sure he's great in the clubhouse but everyone says how good a game he calls and then they give up 19 runs and everyone blames the pitchers. Did he call a bad game? Can't throw many out and is a streaky hitter. Not that there are any good catchers out there, but I wouldn't over-pay.

Replace Pedro with Pavano if you can.

Would you let Manny go if you could get Beltran?
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2004, 05:26:44 PM »

Quote from: "Sam is the Man"
Devil, just curious...who is it in SD that you want to see fail?


I assume he's refering to Doug Flutie.



And hey Devil, how can they let Manny go?  They will still have to pay him, and since he became a model citizen this year, it doesn't hurt to pay him as much.  Also, I don't think the new ownership is willing to do long term contracts for anyone.
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Koz
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« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2004, 06:08:28 PM »

I don't know, I think Cabrera is worth it. He clearly knows what he's doing and can provide a good clutch hit (you can't teach that!). There's definitely a lot of quality shortstops in the league, but the there's a pretty big gap between the elite ones and the next level.

Varitek has, what the Jeter-lovers like to call, "intangibles". I like his defense, he's a switch-hitter, has some power, and at least has shown he can hit. You won't find many other catchers with that kind of versatility. Still, the Sox are lucky enough to have Mirabelli, who is good enough to start. I wouldn't pay Varitek an obscene amount, but I think Varitek himself would not mind being paid reasonably. His asshat agent Boras might think otherwise however.

As for Manny, I don't think they really have a choice. As good as he is, I doubt anyone could afford him. He was put on waivers last offseason after all. I think you can sign Beltran for less than the $20+ mil Manny's getting now. Also, Manny is simply a great player. Unlike so many other hitters of his generation, he is consistent every single year. You can always count on him having a good season. He has his Manny Moments, but I don't think he's any worse a fielder than Sheffield or Guerrero (sans throwing arm). Beltran is an amazing player no doubt, but I don't think the Sox really need him as much as they need pitching.

Speaking of pitching, if Pedro goes, along with Lowe (who will go), that's over $21 mil in salary. The Sox could spend the extra buck or two on OC and Tek and still have plenty for a good #2 man and whatever left for a #5 (with Schilling going 1, Arroyo/Wakefield going 3/4).
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Devil
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« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2004, 06:24:39 PM »

Yeah - It's Flutie in SD.

I think the Mets would jump on Manny in a second if he was left out there again. They almost did it last year.

I might give up on Manny if you could get Beltran in return.

The pitching will sort itself out. I really think they are going to go hard after Pavano if they let Pedro go and maybe even if they don't.
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2004, 10:49:16 PM »

I would only give up Manny for Beltran... Otherwise, they need to get Varitek back, and I wouldn't feel bad seeing Pedro Get overpaid somewhere else. He's a great No.2 but he will get No.1 money...

Otherwise I don't see too much shakeup. I think Mient-whatever and Cabrera will be back as well.



Oh, and am I the only Sox fan who feels that they play better on any other TV station other than Fox? Honestly....
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« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2004, 11:04:38 PM »

On some of the talk radio stuff I've been hearin stuff that they say is from org (but Im guessin all could just be rumor ya?) that they weren't even lookin to resign OC.  Names thrown out were like Larkin, Vizquel.  Sucks if this kinda stuff is true though I like many of you it seems like OC.  Plus I mean werent they raggin on Sox right round trade time that Cabrera was "old"?  Not to use ugly terms - but guys like Larkin and Vizquel could literally be his daddy smile  They're gettin old and Vizquel is HOF stuff but hes toward the end there I dont see him gettin better or even stayin steady before he starts to creep up on mediocre.  
Hmm and what else.  Im hopeful about tonight w/ Schilling.  Game 1 were some of my scariest moments as a Sox fan cause Im sittin there watchin him physically unable to pitch and thinkin shit that thing in Anaheim really could be something bad...  Im thinkin not this year but even next and Im all but cryin - didnt they make it seem like this could be REAL bad?  Francona for the past few days though hasnt been sayin things like "hes doin okay in the pen" or "hes makin progress" hes been callin him outstanding.  That and the fact that he would never in a million years be out there if this was something that they thought was gonna blow up on him - they have way too much money in this guy and way too many expectations to ruin it.  SOOO longwinded bottom line is (and yes we all know ANYTHING can happen) but Im lookin for him to be pretty damn good out there tonight.  Maybe not 100% but he and management def have the sentiment that he is good and up to par to make a do or die start.  So that gives me real high hopes cause even a Schilling at 90% or less is still better than 99% of pitchers out there smile
Which brings me to Lieber.   Twice they make this guy look like hes up for the Cy Young.  Hes NOT that much of a mystery - Sox have shown that pretty well hehehe.  So heres hopin they keep their heads on em and take smart swings cause they do have the potential to hit this guy.  So thats my speech hope ya made it to the end go Sox!  Yanks swept you in the 3 game mini-series time for you guys to sweep them in the 4 gamer that counts smile  Only 2 more smile
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