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Author Topic: Terminator Discussion Group (massive spoilers herein)  (Read 1590 times)
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whiteboyskim
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« on: December 15, 2006, 03:25:43 PM »

Alright gang, since we've deviated from the point in the "Would You Rather Live Free or Die Hard" thread and brought up the finer points of "The Terminator" series I figure it'd be good to start up a thread devoted to just this series.

Now, there will be massive spoilage herein so if you've never seen any of the three films and don't want to know what happens then stay out because I'm not going to use the spoiler tag for literally every post.

That being said, I still think "Terminator 3" was underrated as a "Terminator" film. True, it didn't feel like it belonged to the same universe that Cameron's two originals did but having watched it again I still dig it. There's much more of a nihilistic feel to it that contradicts the sense of hope for a better future the second one had. Personally, I still think the original is one of the best films ever made and that final shot of Sarah Connor driving off into a cloudy future knowing the storm that will hit is just devastating.

So what does everyone else think of the series and it's various themes and philosophies?
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2006, 03:37:06 PM »

"nihilistic feel"? How about crappy action movie feel thrown together to milk the franchise?
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2006, 04:01:18 PM »

Quote from: coopasonic on December 15, 2006, 03:37:06 PM

"nihilistic feel"? How about crappy action movie feel thrown together to milk the franchise?

I guess you'll be avoiding the 4th movie then, and the TV show too.
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2006, 04:10:15 PM »

I'm certainly avoiding the TV series. Sarah Connor running guns in Latin America and trying to teach her son how to be a good leader strikes me as a darker version of Acapulco H.E.A.T. only with less Fabio.
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2006, 04:14:18 PM »

Quote from: coopasonic on December 15, 2006, 03:37:06 PM

"nihilistic feel"? How about crappy action movie feel thrown together to milk the franchise?

Ah, it wasn't that bad.  

The first Terminator blew me away.  Arnold was perfect, Michael Biehn was great in his role and a great flick made even better by Linda Hamilton's tits.  There was a great deal of humor ("fuck you, asshole") and the action was killer.  And every time you thought it was over, Ah-nold came back again.  Plus, there was a great deal of emotion in the film - Sarah Connor's picture on fire was a great scene, as was the closing "storm" scene.

I saw T2 opening night and it was my favorite movie for YEARS.  It was great to see how time had changed Sarah into this super-buff warrior.  The visual effects were light-years ahead of anything else and still hold up today.  But, again, it's the emotional moments that made the film - Sarah trying to be an assassin and then breaking down, the Father-Son bond between the Terminator and John Connor, the incredible nuke scene with Sarah hanging on the chain link fence, etc.  And the ending, unlike the first one, was more hopeful.  You knew at the end of the first movie that all hell was going to break loose.  You actually had hope at the end of the 2nd that it wouldn't.

Then came T3.  While it's certainly not as good as the first 2, it's not a bad movie.  The female terminator (Kristanna Loken) was not as good as Robert Patrick in T2 and the true emotional moments didn't work until the final scene.  It's missing the mastery of James Cameron, who is one of my all-time favorite directors.  However, it's that final scene in the bunker that redeemed the movie for me - John Connor, trapped with Kate Miller (Claire Danes), realizing that fate cannot be stopped and learning to accept it.  It's interesting how it entirely contradicts the T2 premise of "there's no fate but what we make".  Whether you agree with that premise or not, I think it's a neat scene.  The closing of that scene reminds me very much of the tone of the ending in the 1st movie, in which the storm is coming and there's a grim resolve to get through it.  Except that the storm had arrived.

I like all 3, with T2 being my favorite, T1 being 2nd and T3 being 3rd.  One of my top 5 trilogies of all time, behind LOTR, the Godfather and the first 3 Star Wars.
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2006, 04:22:01 PM »

I always felt the war was inevitable.  If there was no war, there would be no reason to send Biehn's character back in time to hook up with Sarah Connor to get her pregnant with John Connor which would cause the universe would collapse from the paradox  eek
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2006, 04:24:59 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on December 15, 2006, 04:22:01 PM

I always felt the war was inevitable.
No fate but what we make!

According to IMDB, T4 is due to start shooting early next year.  Is it already known what the setting/time will be for this one? 
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2006, 04:34:05 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on December 15, 2006, 04:24:59 PM

According to IMDB, T4 is due to start shooting early next year.  Is it already known what the setting/time will be for this one? 

Silly question; is Arnold going to take time off from being Governor to do this??  I see some conflicting things on his involvement doing a quick search online...
The movie I'll probably see.  The TV show I forsee giving about 20 minutes of the pilot before making up my mind.
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2006, 04:35:26 PM »

Quote from: Blackadar on December 15, 2006, 04:14:18 PM

However, it's that final scene in the bunker that redeemed the movie for me - John Connor, trapped with Kate Miller (Claire Danes), realizing that fate cannot be stopped and learning to accept it.  It's interesting how it entirely contradicts the T2 premise of "there's no fate but what we make".

That's the only good thing in the whole film.

T3 should have been entirely future based.  It should have shown the actual rise of the machines and the beginning of the war.

T4 should be Pt 2 of the actual war and end with Michael Biehn going through the time machine.

T5 should be the end of the war and the reemergence of humanity.

T6 should feature Tommy Machine Gunn as an up and coming Terminator Model who Arnie Knocks out in the street.

Ok I'm not serious about that last one...
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« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2006, 04:39:20 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on December 15, 2006, 04:24:59 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on December 15, 2006, 04:22:01 PM

I always felt the war was inevitable.
No fate but what we make!

According to IMDB, T4 is due to start shooting early next year.  Is it already known what the setting/time will be for this one? 

I think it's supposed to take place after Judgement Day.  I see Nick Stahl is listed as being in it so if that's accurate it'll almost have to.
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« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2006, 04:57:13 PM »

How much after though?  Do you think it'll be just less than a year since the end of T3, or farther in the future like the battle scenes they've shown in the past movies?
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« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2006, 04:58:14 PM »

What's the deal with the tv series? I haven't heard this one before.
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« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2006, 05:12:50 PM »

Quote from: dmd on December 15, 2006, 04:58:14 PM

What's the deal with the tv series? I haven't heard this one before.

It's called "The Sarah Connor Chronicles" and right now there's only speculation as to what it's going to cover. My guess would be the timeline between T2 and T3 consider Sarah was killed off-screen for T3. But there were no Terminators chasing them during that time as has been well established so who knows what it's going to be about.

I also maintain that T2 does not hold up as well as the original does.

/throws down the gauntlet
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2006, 05:24:30 PM »

Quote from: whiteboyskim on December 15, 2006, 05:12:50 PM

I also maintain that T2 does not hold up as well as the original does.


My opinion of T2 has been a bit of a rollercoaster.  I thought it was "OMFG, Amazing!!!" when I first saw it, a little while after that after CGI spectacles were a dime a dozen I wasn't very impressed anymore, but now I marvel at all of the great old fashioned stuntwork that we see so little of these days. 

Also, T2 is one of the few cases where I definitely prefer the theatrical version to the extended cut.  Extended cut puts me to sleep but the theatrical  version remains pretty tight.

Overall, I'd still put T2 ahead of the first if for no other reason than T2 feels less dated and more timeless.  Terminator 1 feels a little "Too 80s" at times to the point it takes me out of the movie. 
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2006, 05:56:49 PM »

T3 was disappointing. It was one pure action scene. The first movie was so great because there was, you know, an actual story. The second movie was great because the story was still interesting and the special effects were incredible. The third movie's story was simply a dumbed down rehash of T2.

But here's a question about T1 and T2. The psychiatrist in the first movie is the same psychiatrist in the second movie. In T1, it makes sense that he thought Reese was crazy. But then Arnold completely tears up the police station; all the cops' weapons can't stop him. So why in the second movie does the doctor still think Sarah Connor is delusional? Did he just forget how the terminator single handedly exterminated half of L.A.'s police force?
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2006, 06:00:31 PM »

No, because he wasn't there for the police station shoot-out in the first one. In the movie he walks to the front door then his beeper goes off. He looks down at it right as Arnold opens the door and walks past him into the station. The shrink leaves and never saw anything other than the station security camera pictures the cops show Sarah in T2. But he gets a good look at everything in T2 which is why he freaks out in T3 when he sees Arnold come out of the mortuary.
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2006, 07:04:16 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on December 15, 2006, 05:24:30 PM

Quote from: whiteboyskim on December 15, 2006, 05:12:50 PM

I also maintain that T2 does not hold up as well as the original does.


My opinion of T2 has been a bit of a rollercoaster.  I thought it was "OMFG, Amazing!!!" when I first saw it, a little while after that after CGI spectacles were a dime a dozen I wasn't very impressed anymore, but now I marvel at all of the great old fashioned stuntwork that we see so little of these days. 

Also, T2 is one of the few cases where I definitely prefer the theatrical version to the extended cut.  Extended cut puts me to sleep but the theatrical  version remains pretty tight.

Overall, I'd still put T2 ahead of the first if for no other reason than T2 feels less dated and more timeless.  Terminator 1 feels a little "Too 80s" at times to the point it takes me out of the movie. 

I'm going to have to say that T1 is still the best of the series with 2 a close second.  3 should be launched into the sun.
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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2006, 07:10:55 PM »

IMO, T1 blows the others out of the water, courtesy of being focussed (due to a limited budget) and being well cast (perhaps being GREATLY cast).  T2 is a great movie, but the Glossy-stupid difference between a $90 million film and it's $8 million predecessor was too apparent to me.  Not to mention the 'apparently, I learned high-level computer hacking techniques from gun-wielding Banditos'.  (C'mon guys, that was abysmally stupid.)  I saw about ten minutes of t3, and it has the same problems T2, only it wasn't even directed by a good action movie director like Cameron.  I learned of T4 all of 30 seconds ago when I started reading this thread, and I want to jab a hot poker into my brain that this is even being considered.  

As it is, this series has missed it's best conceivable 'gotcha' already - the original casting plan.  Imagine that discoteque scene being done with Arnold sitting at the bar, and Michael Beihn slaughtering people.  Watching Mike kick the crap out of Arnold would have been phenomenal.  Just my opinion.
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« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2006, 07:14:44 PM »

Quote from: Big Jake on December 15, 2006, 07:10:55 PM

As it is, this series has missed it's best conceivable 'gotcha' already - the original casting plan.  Imagine that discoteque scene being done with Arnold sitting at the bar, and Michael Beihn slaughtering people.  Watching Mike kick the crap out of Arnold would have been phenomenal.  Just my opinion.

Actually, Lance Henrikson was originally going to be the Terminator.
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« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2006, 07:57:22 PM »

I never thought T3 deserved all the flack it received.  It aped T2 somewhat - just insert Kristanna Loken for Robert Patrick, but it was a fun action flick.
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« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2006, 08:43:47 PM »

Quote from: whiteboyskim on December 15, 2006, 06:00:31 PM

No, because he wasn't there for the police station shoot-out in the first one. In the movie he walks to the front door then his beeper goes off. He looks down at it right as Arnold opens the door and walks past him into the station. The shrink leaves and never saw anything other than the station security camera pictures the cops show Sarah in T2. But he gets a good look at everything in T2 which is why he freaks out in T3 when he sees Arnold come out of the mortuary.

Really? My memory must be faulty. I thought the doctor cowered behind a desk in the police station while Arnold tore the place up. I guess I'll just have to watch it again.  icon_biggrin
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« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2006, 06:13:35 AM »

Am I the only one who wants to see a Terminator movie set entirely in the future?

I read a Terminator comic a long time ago (maybe someone knows the name) which showed that last, final assault which brought down Skynet.  THAT would be a killer movie.

But I agree, it seems James Cameron really had the Terminator "feel" down, and knew how to get that feel to film.
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« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2006, 06:16:48 AM »

Quote from: Ralph-Wiggum on December 15, 2006, 08:43:47 PM

Quote from: whiteboyskim on December 15, 2006, 06:00:31 PM

No, because he wasn't there for the police station shoot-out in the first one. In the movie he walks to the front door then his beeper goes off. He looks down at it right as Arnold opens the door and walks past him into the station. The shrink leaves and never saw anything other than the station security camera pictures the cops show Sarah in T2. But he gets a good look at everything in T2 which is why he freaks out in T3 when he sees Arnold come out of the mortuary.

Really? My memory must be faulty. I thought the doctor cowered behind a desk in the police station while Arnold tore the place up. I guess I'll just have to watch it again.  icon_biggrin

I believe they blamed it all on Michael Biehn.  And yes, that makes no sense, since he was already in police custody, but I think they mentioned it in T2.  It was kind of a "that's our official story, and we are sticking to it" moment on the police department's part.
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« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2006, 04:01:03 PM »

No they blamed the initial killings on Michael Biehn's character because when they interrogated him they didn't believe him. Hell, in 1984 (or ever, really) would you believe some guy who said a robot from the future that looked human was wiping out all Sarah Connor's in the LA area? In T2 they fully acknowledged that Arnold was the guy who wiped out the station courtesy of the security camera shots, which they quickly compared to the shots taken that day in the mall. After the police station massacre there are no other cops anywhere in The Terminator so I'm guessing they were less interested in Kyle and Sarah than they were in the big lug who just killed 20+ cops in one go.
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« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2006, 06:46:55 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on December 18, 2006, 06:13:35 AM

I read a Terminator comic a long time ago (maybe someone knows the name) which showed that last, final assault which brought down Skynet.  THAT would be a killer movie.

I think that was Terminator: Burning Earth.
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« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2006, 08:03:37 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on December 18, 2006, 06:13:35 AM

Am I the only one who wants to see a Terminator movie set entirely in the future?

Yes.
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