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Author Topic: So how's the War on Terra going, George?  (Read 20055 times)
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unbreakable
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« Reply #120 on: June 19, 2005, 02:49:27 PM »

Quote from: "MrZubbleWump"
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So SHE thinks he is lying about Iraq?


I don't know. I know that I don't trust someone who repeatedly commits adultery. You apparently have high standards for this man but if he is an adulterer then I have no respect for him or his integrity. Which takes us back to your original question about him ("do you think he is lying"). My answer is "yes" he certainly is capable of lying.


Everyone is capable of lying.  That doesn't mean they do.  Just because someone is a habitual liar doesn't mean every single word they say is false.

As for "having high standards for this man", I said he is telling the truth about Iraq.  The UK government, and later our own, attempted to say he was receiving money from Oil for Food.  He successfully defended himself from the accusations, and sued successfully for libel.  Meaning he wasnt involved, he was telling the truth, and was able to demonstrate so.  His marital fidelity had very little to do with any of that, Im guessing.  I never suggesting he receive a sainthood.  Who he is fucking is none of my business, nor a subject for my concern.

If he is such a liar, what he says should be quite easy to disprove.  Perhaps someone should try.

GWB, Dick Cheney, and many others have been caught lying.  Does this now mean they are cheating on their wives?

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Which has little to do with the rebuilding which was supposed to have been done by the US.


Again you are changing the subject. The point is that the Iraqi govt now has the power to choose it's future, it's laws, who it does business with etc.  The quote that I gave you proves that they are exercising that power and changing what they (not you) don't like about previous contracts.


What Iraqi government?  They dont even have a constitution; it is, at best, an interim government, and at worst it's a puppet.
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The French werent OCCUPYING a foreign country, the British were.


Who asked the colonists to be here? Was it the Indians? All of the colonies were flying British flags.

So it WASNT a foreign country?  Or are you saying that America was the UK?  Did we dig that ocean after the war ended?

It was a British colony which had declared it's independence.  That isnt the same situation as a military occupation of a foreign nation.  Did Saddam invite the US troops over there?  Did the French troops get invited to the USA?
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Devil
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« Reply #121 on: June 19, 2005, 04:06:44 PM »

See!

I go away for a while and Mr.ZW comes in, kicks ass, slaps unbreakable around, and proves my point!!

It all works out int the end.

 biggrin

(now give me a pic!)
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MrZubbleWump
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« Reply #122 on: June 19, 2005, 09:30:43 PM »

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Everyone is capable of lying. That doesn't mean they do. Just because someone is a habitual liar doesn't mean every single word they say is false.


Everybody lies even me.  There are times however when we need to be certain that we are being honest to our word.  Those times are when we say something under oath in court, or when we exchange our vows to the most important person in our life.  This guy has broken his word to his wife and that means that he is also capable of lying under oath.  He's probably innocent of the charges that were placed against him but I think it's odd that he now is accusing high ranking officials of the same wrong doing (sounds like tit for tat to me).

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Did Saddam invite the US troops over there? Did the French troops get invited to the USA?


No Saddam did not invite us but many Iraqi's did.  Comparing those people to Ben Franklin is probably a stretch but they still did promote the invasion. If in this analogy the British represent Saddam's gov't then those same Iraqi's that promoted the invasion represent the colonists and the U.S. therefore represents the French.

I don't really care if you like the analogy or not but the U.S. does not have a history of setting up colonies and that seems to be what you are suggesting the U.S. is doing. I'm not sure what reason GW and friends would have for wanting to occupy Iraq any longer than necessary.  There's no doubt that the Iraq war has hurt GW big time and he would like to get out of it as soon as possible.
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« Reply #123 on: June 20, 2005, 04:13:30 AM »

Quote from: "MrZubbleWump"
Quote
Everyone is capable of lying. That doesn't mean they do. Just because someone is a habitual liar doesn't mean every single word they say is false.


Everybody lies even me.  There are times however when we need to be certain that we are being honest to our word.  Those times are when we say something under oath in court, or when we exchange our vows to the most important person in our life.  This guy has broken his word to his wife and that means that he is also capable of lying under oath.  He's probably innocent of the charges that were placed against him but I think it's odd that he now is accusing high ranking officials of the same wrong doing (sounds like tit for tat to me).


There is no 'probably'.  His detractors had every chance in the world of proving him wrong, and failed to do so.  He did so on the floor of parliment, in court, and testified under oath before the US Congress.  Thus far, nobody (including yourself) has been able to prove a single thing he said wrong.  So there is no 'probably'; had there been anything false in what he was saying, wouldnt a reasonable person expect it to have come out by now?  Unlike yourself and many others, a majority of the world does not regard the truth as ultimately unknowable.  But it's actually just a pretext for denying unpleasant truths anyway, since you accept so many other things as fact with far less evidence.

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Did Saddam invite the US troops over there? Did the French troops get invited to the USA?


No Saddam did not invite us but many Iraqi's did.

Many Americans invited terrorists into the country.  That is hardly a measure of worthiness.

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Comparing those people to Ben Franklin is probably a stretch but they still did promote the invasion. If in this analogy the British represent Saddam's gov't then those same Iraqi's that promoted the invasion represent the colonists and the U.S. therefore represents the French.

I don't really care if you like the analogy or not but the U.S. does not have a history of setting up colonies and that seems to be what you are suggesting the U.S. is doing.


And what points to otherwise?  The undisclosed timeline, the failure to set milestones for progress, the claims of Iraq being a 'democratic beach head' for the region (which completely ignores the fact that Turkey is a democracy)?

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I'm not sure what reason GW and friends would have for wanting to occupy Iraq any longer than necessary.  There's no doubt that the Iraq war has hurt GW big time and he would like to get out of it as soon as possible.


You still need to read Baghdad Year Zero.  It explains exactly why GW and friends want to be in Iraq as long as po$$ible.  Perhaps you can find some ad hominems against Harper's or Naomi Klein to explain why it doesnt need to be considered.
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Meisterbrew
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« Reply #124 on: June 20, 2005, 12:18:16 PM »

Take it how you wana view it..


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MrZubbleWump
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« Reply #125 on: June 20, 2005, 04:36:33 PM »

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There is no 'probably'. His detractors had every chance in the world of proving him wrong, and failed to do so. He did so on the floor of parliment, in court, and testified under oath before the US Congress. Thus far, nobody (including yourself) has been able to prove a single thing he said wrong.


Let's go back to your original question "Do you think he is lying?". I told you "yes". I told you my reasoning is that he is not trustworthy and I provided my evidence (his infidelity). In my opinion (and that was what you were asking for) the fact that he has testified under oath is meaningless when his word/honor have no value to him.  As I said before, if he would lie and betray his own wife why should I believe him when he stands before Congress or Parliment?  

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And what points to otherwise? The undisclosed timeline, the failure to set milestones for progress, the claims of Iraq being a 'democratic beach head' for the region (which completely ignores the fact that Turkey is a democracy)?


It's not hard to understand that giving a specific date will only inspire the insurgents/terrorists to hide and wait for us to leave. I'm not sure what milestones for progress you are interested in but we have already seen elections held to a deadline. I'm not sure where the 'democratic beach head" quote is from but Bush has applauded Turkey as being an example of democracy in the Middle East.

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It explains exactly why GW and friends want to be in Iraq as long as po$$ible.


Check the date of "Baghdad Year Zero".  It was written in Sept. 2004 long before the elections took place. It contains alot of  hear say and back door meetings that can't be verified or challenged. It can't say anything about the current political/economic situation in Iraq since it was written so long ago and much has changed. I saw nothing in the report that suggests that GW would prefer to damage his political situation further in order to better his personal financial situation.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #126 on: June 20, 2005, 10:27:37 PM »

Quote from: "MrZubbleWump"
Quote
There is no 'probably'. His detractors had every chance in the world of proving him wrong, and failed to do so. He did so on the floor of parliment, in court, and testified under oath before the US Congress. Thus far, nobody (including yourself) has been able to prove a single thing he said wrong.


Let's go back to your original question "Do you think he is lying?". I told you "yes". I told you my reasoning is that he is not trustworthy and I provided my evidence (his infidelity).

That is an excuse, not evidence.
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In my opinion (and that was what you were asking for) the fact that he has testified under oath is meaningless when his word/honor have no value to him.  As I said before, if he would lie and betray his own wife why should I believe him when he stands before Congress or Parliment?  


I see.  Im dealing with a True Believer here, and there is absolutely no possibility of you believing anything which contradicts your 'opinion'.

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And what points to otherwise? The undisclosed timeline, the failure to set milestones for progress, the claims of Iraq being a 'democratic beach head' for the region (which completely ignores the fact that Turkey is a democracy)?


It's not hard to understand that giving a specific date will only inspire the insurgents/terrorists to hide and wait for us to leave. I'm not sure what milestones for progress you are interested in but we have already seen elections held to a deadline. I'm not sure where the 'democratic beach head" quote is from but Bush has applauded Turkey as being an example of democracy in the Middle East.


How about milestones?  The Bush administration hasnt even said what conditions need to be met for them to withdraw.  In other words, we are there until they tell America it's time to leave.  That would work good in a dictatorship, but it isnt the way our military works, and it isnt the way our government is supposed to work.

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It explains exactly why GW and friends want to be in Iraq as long as po$$ible.


Check the date of "Baghdad Year Zero".  It was written in Sept. 2004 long before the elections took place. It contains alot of  hear say and back door meetings that can't be verified or challenged. It can't say anything about the current political/economic situation in Iraq since it was written so long ago and much has changed. I saw nothing in the report that suggests that GW would prefer to damage his political situation further in order to better his personal financial situation.


I knew you would find a dodge.  This is what's called the 'we just dont know' defense.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #127 on: June 20, 2005, 10:31:41 PM »

This is a work in progress.

Right Wing Discussion Template

[ ] Clinton got a blow job
  • The (
  • source
  • writer
  • publisher) is a liberal
[ ] The ([ ] source [ ]writer [ ] publisher)'s sister's babysitter's neighbor's ex-girlfriend's college roommate is a liberal
  • We just don't know
[ ] This is just Bush hating
[ ] Why do you hate America?
[ ] We are fighting a War on Terra
  • (
  • Victory [ ] Job growth [ ] The Bush Boom) is just around the corner
[ ] Dan Rather
[ ] Bill Clinton would have done it too
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Gwar21
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« Reply #128 on: June 21, 2005, 12:02:44 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
This is a work in progress.

Right Wing Discussion Template

[ ] Clinton got a blow job
  • The (
  • source
  • writer
  • publisher) is a liberal
[ ] The ([ ] source [ ]writer [ ] publisher)'s sister's babysitter's neighbor's ex-girlfriend's college roommate is a liberal
  • We just don't know
[ ] This is just Bush hating
[ ] Why do you hate America?
[ ] We are fighting a War on Terra
  • (
  • Victory [ ] Job growth [ ] The Bush Boom) is just around the corner
[ ] Dan Rather
[ ] Bill Clinton would have done it too


Well, you're fair, nice, and unbiased.  No wonder everyone loves you and enjoys having "discussions" with you.
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Devil
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« Reply #129 on: June 21, 2005, 12:31:09 AM »

TeeHee!!
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El Guapo
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« Reply #130 on: June 21, 2005, 07:54:50 AM »

Quote
Quote
It explains exactly why GW and friends want to be in Iraq as long as po$$ible.


Check the date of "Baghdad Year Zero".  It was written in Sept. 2004 long before the elections took place. It contains alot of  hear say and back door meetings that can't be verified or challenged. It can't say anything about the current political/economic situation in Iraq since it was written so long ago and much has changed. I saw nothing in the report that suggests that GW would prefer to damage his political situation further in order to better his personal financial situation.


Quote
I knew you would find a dodge.  This is what's called the 'we just dont know' defense.


Ok, I should point out that attacking a source is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in an argument.  If MZW, arguing that Bush didn't lie about WMD in Iraq, pulled out a memorandum of support written by George W. Bush, you would quite reasonably dismiss it as biased (and therefore give little if any weight to its contents).  On a similar (though less extreme) note, he's arguing that Baghdad Year Zero is outdated and off point.  You might not find this convincing, but it's not a dodge.  Feel free to refute his points about Baghdad Year Zero.[/quote]
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« Reply #131 on: June 21, 2005, 07:56:22 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
This is a work in progress.

Right Wing Discussion Template

[ ] Clinton got a blow job
  • The (
  • source
  • writer
  • publisher) is a liberal
[ ] The ([ ] source [ ]writer [ ] publisher)'s sister's babysitter's neighbor's ex-girlfriend's college roommate is a liberal
  • We just don't know
[ ] This is just Bush hating
[ ] Why do you hate America?
[ ] We are fighting a War on Terra
  • (
  • Victory [ ] Job growth [ ] The Bush Boom) is just around the corner
[ ] Dan Rather
[ ] Bill Clinton would have done it too


AD HOMINEM!  I WIN 50 ARGUMENT POINTS!!!
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unbreakable
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« Reply #132 on: June 21, 2005, 11:40:02 AM »

Quote from: "El Guapo"
Ok, I should point out that attacking a source is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in an argument.  If MZW, arguing that Bush didn't lie about WMD in Iraq, pulled out a memorandum of support written by George W. Bush, you would quite reasonably dismiss it as biased (and therefore give little if any weight to its contents).


No, no it really isnt a resonable thing to do.  You take each contention and weigh it based upon it's own merits.  The reason you can't attack the source is because people opposed to a certain issue are going to raise points the supporters of that issue do not want to address.  So if you are only going by what the supporters or opposition say, you are getting half the story.

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On a similar (though less extreme) note, he's arguing that Baghdad Year Zero is outdated and off point.  You might not find this convincing, but it's not a dodge.  Feel free to refute his points about Baghdad Year Zero.

Well, it being 'out of date' only makes it more relevant.  Given that what it said was going to happen was what came to pass, the passage of time has only proven it correct.

It wasnt a report of breaking news, it was an explaination of what is going on over there, and why.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #133 on: June 21, 2005, 11:45:48 AM »

Quote from: "Gwar21"
Well, you're fair, nice, and unbiased.  No wonder everyone loves you and enjoys having "discussions" with you.

Given that most points people raise in defense of various right-wing agendas tend to be the same things, Im only trying to help them out.

One of my 'things to do' is to hunt and peck thru the list of fallacies, it should remind me of some 'points' raised by either talk show hosts or forum posters.

I personally find it sad to see people defending the use of fallacies, since the only purpose of using a fallacy is to curcumvent rational discussion (either intentionally or unintentionally).  But oh well.  I just have to content myself with pointing the fallacies out.
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Devil
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« Reply #134 on: June 21, 2005, 12:12:26 PM »

Once again - unbreakable tells us how it should be!

Thanks for pointing everything out to us idiots.

The Great Enlightener!

How does one person get so intelligent?
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« Reply #135 on: June 21, 2005, 12:49:49 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Once again - unbreakable tells us how it should be!


More like 'how it is'.

Quote
Thanks for pointing everything out to us idiots.

The Great Enlightener!

How does one person get so intelligent?


It's genetics, so I guess you are just out of luck  frown

You're welcome, btw.
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« Reply #136 on: June 21, 2005, 12:57:13 PM »

No pic to go with that?

Maybe you're not as smart as I thought...
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« Reply #137 on: June 21, 2005, 01:10:03 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
No pic to go with that?

Maybe you're not as smart as I thought...


Considering your contributions to the discussion have been nil, Im wondering what your point is.
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Devil
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« Reply #138 on: June 21, 2005, 01:21:14 PM »

MY contributions?!!?

I laid out the course of this thread many days ago and have been right on the money to this point.

My contributions have drawn more attention in here than any of your insightful comments.

You should be thanking me for drawing in the attention that you so desperately crave.

I'm the life of the party in here!!  Tongue

You're the one who isn't contributing...

Now post a pic!!
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« Reply #139 on: June 21, 2005, 01:32:01 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
You should be thanking me for drawing in the attention that you so desperately crave.


Ive found that people usually mask their real wants by accusing others of wanting or trying to get those exact things.

It must suck, wearing your insecurities on your sleeve like you do.
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« Reply #140 on: June 21, 2005, 01:34:17 PM »

I smell a lock coming...keep it civil and leave the personal attacks at home.  If you can't discuss like adults I'll have to seperate you. smile
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unbreakable
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« Reply #141 on: June 21, 2005, 01:37:07 PM »

How about a recap?

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:19 am
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unbreakable should move the soap box to the stage on open mike night at The Chuckle Hut!


Devil's nice fact-based, intellectual debut in this thread.

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:35 pm
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Another knee slapper!! Where do you guys get this stuff, much less pass it off as cold, hard facts.

Thanks for shedding some light on the situation - a couple of guys on the net always have access to more info the the Govt, especially a conservative president. Don't know what I was thinking...


"everyone discriminates against conservatives"

Want more cheese with your WAAAAAAAAAHHH?

[edit]  Ooohh... thanks, I need to add that to the template!

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:00 pm
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Hey, Devil? Instead of poking at his statement, how about showing us some facts (preferably -not- from the US Government) showing that Saddam -was- a threat?  


Show you some facts?!? Where am I going to get facts? Who the hell am I?

Go google "Saddam+wmd+proof", read everything you come back with from both sides and tell me there's a definitive answer. There isn't. Oh, I'm sure you'd like to think there is, I know you hope there is, but I'm going to say that you and I will never know the truth about this shit (or most other things like this) because WE simply don't have all the information. I'm going to say that everyone in congress, dems, republicans, EVERYONE has more info than we'll ever know.

I have enough faith in people (W, Clinton, Hillary, Gore, Kerry, Kennedy, Cheney, whoever is president) that I think whoever is in charge, is actually trying to do the right thing.

This is why I spend a lot less time in the other forum. The pissing contests and know-it-alls seemed to take over the place. I'm not accusing anyone of anything but I'm smart enough to know that NONE of us could actually run this country so maybe we shouldn't act like we could.


Thanks for forcing your laissez faire worldview on the rest of us.  Show us the way, we are not worthy!

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:25 pm
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and this thread isn't a pissing contest?  


THAT is my point.


In your opinion, that is.  Some people were trying to have a discussion, however.  You may want to ask yourself what exactly you were bringing to the discussion?  It certainly wasn't facts, but according to you, only the president and a select cabal have access to the facts.

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:44 pm
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Do you really think your right? I mean, do you REALLY think that what's rattling around in that head of yours is the ultimate truth?

If you do, then I'm sure that there's nothing I can say to sway you and that's fine.

Have fun!  


Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:49 pm
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You'll see what you want to see.


Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 6:06 pm
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...and you haven't understood anything I've written - I DON'T FEEL THE NEED TO BE RIGHT!!!!

I'm not preaching to anyone, hating anyone or starting a crusade on a gaming web site to show how smart I am and how I'm changing the world by bashing a prseident that I hate.

I'm fine with MY opinion and MY vote. I'm not looking to prove anything.

I've done nothing to contradict your side of this argument and I think that's what you have a problem with. You need to show us what you know.

So bring it! Give me everything - Here you go:

We had every reason to go into Iraq because they had WMDs and blood for oil and Gittmo is great! I'm right!! Al Franken sucks!!

Fire away!


I think it's too bad we all can't be in the reality-based community.  
/shrug

and on and on.

Devil is just a troll, and not even a good one.  A good troll doesnt feel the need to evangelize, as he does by whining about how futile any kind of discussion is.
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« Reply #142 on: June 21, 2005, 01:58:16 PM »

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Ive found that people usually mask their real wants by accusing others of wanting or trying to get those exact things.


This doesn't even make sense...


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Devil is just a troll, and not even a good one. A good troll doesnt feel the need to evangelize, as he does by whining about how futile any kind of discussion is.


I'm the troll!!!

That's funny - I come to a game site and the majority of my posts are related to gaming.  You, on the other hand feel the need to crusade against the goevermnet in a gaming site.

I'm making light of your sad state of being.

I agree with KD - This thread should have been locked at inception!
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« Reply #143 on: June 21, 2005, 02:15:55 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Quote
Ive found that people usually mask their real wants by accusing others of wanting or trying to get those exact things.


This doesn't even make sense...


Of course it does.  Maybe you arent capable of understanding...

Quote
Quote
Devil is just a troll, and not even a good one. A good troll doesnt feel the need to evangelize, as he does by whining about how futile any kind of discussion is.


I'm the troll!!!

That's funny - I come to a game site and the majority of my posts are related to gaming.  You, on the other hand feel the need to crusade against the goevermnet in a gaming site.

I'm making light of your sad state of being.

I agree with KD - This thread should have been locked at inception!


1. This is an 'off-topic' forum, where we discuss things other than gaming
2. you are not a moderator, thus it is not your place to say whether a discussion should be here or not, or how another poster should behave
3. none of your posts had anything to do with the topic of the thread

KD mentioned locking the tread because of personal attacks, not because of the subject.  But getting the thread locked, and thus any discussing of the subject, are really what you are after.
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MrZubbleWump
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« Reply #144 on: June 21, 2005, 02:20:07 PM »

I just want to point out that Osamma has still not been found.

GW is all about greed.  Nothing is done by his administration unless it is for profit.

Cheeney is not human.

9/11 never happened or did it?

Al Gore invented this thread.

There are aliens at Rosswell.

My dog is better than your dog.

I know I am but what are you?
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« Reply #145 on: June 21, 2005, 02:25:50 PM »

Quote
Maybe you arent capable of understanding...


I'm too dumb to discuss anything on your level.

...or at least that's what you'd like to think.

I've played you like a drum through this whole foolish subject and exposed you for the fraud you are without even getting into your little political rant.

Maybe you're not as smart as you think you are...but I'll bet you tell me otherwise and be convinced you're right as usual!!  :lol:


Now be a good caddie and post my pic!!
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« Reply #146 on: June 21, 2005, 02:33:24 PM »

I found this latest revelation, that supposedly the CIA has an 'excellent' idea of where OBL is, to be funny.

I have an 'excellent idea' of where he is too- on the planet earth.  In fact, I can say with 100% certainty that OBL has NOT left the planet.  Can I be head of the CIA now?

This one is a gem-
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He cited the difficulty of ''dealing with sanctuaries in sovereign states; you're dealing with a problem of our sense of international obligation, fair play."


So let me get this straight.  We invaded Iraq, against the opinions of the world community, destroyed their government and any kind of social structures (like, say, water filtration plants or police headquarters), etc., but someone sending 20 special forces guys into a foreign country to grab (or kill, "Dead or Alive", remember?) one fucking guy doesnt jive with "our sense of international obligation, fair play"?  Too funny.

Anyway, I think this passage in 'Baghdad Year Zero' pretty much explains why we are still in Iraq-

Quote
Iraq was to the neocons what Afghanistan was to the Taliban: the one place on Earth where they could force everyone to live by the most literal, unyielding interpretation of their sacred texts. One would think that the bloody results of this experiment would inspire a crisis of faith: in the country where they had absolute free reign, where there was no local government to blame, where economic reforms were introduced at their most shocking and most perfect, they created, instead of a model free market, a failed state no right-thinking investor would touch. And yet the Green Zone neocons and their masters in Washington are no more likely to reexamine their core beliefs than the Taliban mullahs were inclined to search their souls when their Islamic state slid into a debauched Hades of opium and sex slavery. When facts threaten true believers, they simply close their eyes and pray harder.


Thanks to the info coming out of the UK (aka the Downing Street Minutes), the picture is being shown very clearly how even the Bush administration knew (but didnt care) that Iraq had very little to do with fighting a 'War on Terror'.
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MrZubbleWump
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« Reply #147 on: June 21, 2005, 02:46:38 PM »

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Anyway, I think this passage in 'Baghdad Year Zero' pretty much explains why we are still in Iraq-


Maybe you can explain in your own words why we are still in Iraq. Wait no need to do that here you go

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If the USA were to leave tomorrow, all Iraqi government officials would be dead within a week.


So which is it? Is the U.S. still in Iraq because the administration is too blind to see the truth for what it is or is it because the administration knows that pulling out now would be a disaster for everyone?

I expect you to not anwer and just change the subject.
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« Reply #148 on: June 21, 2005, 02:51:56 PM »

I'm not going to contribute to the pro/con argument.  What I will do is tell you that you are not hearing the whole story from either side.  I have friends in my old squadron in and out of Iraq who paint a very different picture.  The media twists it.  The government twists it.  Other countries twist it.  Everyone involved twists it until it doesn't even look like the same picture.   The media can't sell newspapers talking about the stability in some parts of the region, they can only sell death, so we hear about the bombings.  They can't sell newspapers talking about the schools being built and little Iraqi girls getting to get an education that they otherwise would never get, instead they talk about having a 'good idea' about blah blah blah.  

All the citing of media here doesn't sway me one way or the other.  They are businesses out to make money...it is NOT in their best interest to report anything accurately or fairly.  (And lets not pretend there is a such thing as journalistic integrity any longer)
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« Reply #149 on: June 21, 2005, 03:02:23 PM »

Y'know, I was reading up on the 'Downing Street Memos' and came across something very odd, to say the least:

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Smith told AP he protected the identity of the source he had obtained the documents from by typing copies of them on plain paper and destroying the originals.

The AP obtained copies of six of the memos (the other two have circulated widely). A senior British official who reviewed the copies said their content appeared authentic. He spoke on condition of anonymity because of the secret nature of the material.


(full article)

Ok, so this guy re-typed the memo and destroyed the originals?  And a 'senior British official'  vouched for their authenticity, but chooses to remain anonymous?  I smell shennanigans.
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« Reply #150 on: June 21, 2005, 03:03:36 PM »

Quote from: "MrZubbleWump"
So which is it? Is the U.S. still in Iraq because the administration is too blind to see the truth for what it is or is it because the administration knows that pulling out now would be a disaster for everyone?

I expect you to not anwer and just change the subject.


Of course you would expect me to do so, since that is first and foremost in your mind.  But not in mine, I can answer questions without using fallacies.

The US is in Iraq because many people seek to make much money (the majority of it in the form of accumulating more government debt).  They arent pulling out because to do so would be to admit defeat, and true believers cannot admit defeat, even in the face of evidence to the contrary.  It also means not making money, which they are whether we 'succeed' in Iraq or not.  In fact, they make more money when we don't succeed, because they just get to stay there longer, and the money spigot stays open.

KD- Im not belittling any good that is being done there, but doing a small bit of good doesnt negate doing a great deal of harm.  Sure, those schools are up and running now, but what about the towns which arent bending knee to the current government?  They get the Fajula treatment.  There is a civil war going on there, but our government is telling us they are anti-American terrorists.

The way things are being run at the top doesnt have the best interests of the Iraqis at heart, in the same way our leaders dont have America's best interests at heart.  It's nice that people in this country can buy playstations and flat screen tv's and watch Oprah and drive SUVs, but that doesnt really help the country's future prospects of high debt and a low rate of good jobs.

Unemployment is still over 40% in Iraq; so unless a bunch of Iraqis tell me everything is fine and dandy over there, Im going to have to keep being pessimistic.  Likewise, until I get another real job, and my underemployed friends do as well, Im going to have to be pessimistic about how great the US economy is doing.
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« Reply #151 on: June 21, 2005, 03:13:41 PM »

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...until I get another real job, and my underemployed friends do as well, Im going to have to be pessimistic about how great the US economy is doing.


This says a lot about why you feel the way you do.

Until YOU get a job, the economy sucks?

I don't agree with anything you say or your tactics, but I wish you the best in your search.
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« Reply #152 on: June 21, 2005, 03:16:32 PM »

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KD- Im not belittling any good that is being done there, but doing a small bit of good doesnt negate doing a great deal of harm. Sure, those schools are up and running now, but what about the towns which arent bending knee to the current government? They get the Fajula treatment.


I'm not going to argue that there isn't a whole lot of 'invisible hand' going on (for those who have played Black and White, its less the nice pink glowy hand and more the smoking black claw), but my point is that there is a whole lot more good going on than people realize.  The military did what it does best...there is a cancer on the hand?  Lets take it off at the shoulder so it doesn't spread.  Unfortunately, we get a lot of bleeding and screaming with it.  If the military had its way, we'd be done by now but it'd be a military police state.  There would be no freedom.  Thankfully somebody has the best interests at heart, even if it isn't their primary concern ($) and are trying the 'give a man a fishing pole' method.  

Personally?  I'm a warhawk, I'd crush the hell out of that country and rebuild it from the sand.  I'd be a poor choice for a political leader...
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« Reply #153 on: June 21, 2005, 03:27:58 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Personally?  I'm a warhawk, I'd crush the hell out of that country and rebuild it from the sand.  I'd be a poor choice for a political leader...


Is that any relation to the Dae or Spar variety?
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« Reply #154 on: June 21, 2005, 03:30:31 PM »

Honestly, your 'police state' idea would have been the best way to go.  Rummy's 'war on the cheap' just lead us into the problems there now.

I have a Croatian friend, and many of his countrymen are of the opinion that the war over there was orchestrated just by those profiteering from it.  Their country didnt have debt, didnt have much unemployment, and it didnt cost a lot of money to live there.  After the war, money had to be spent to rebuild, many people who were involved in promoting the war got very wealthy, and it's hard to make a living there now.  And the country is now carrying a debt with whoever (Worldbank or IMF).

Is it a conspiracy?  I dont know, but it certainly looks suspicious that people involved with Nixon/Reagan/Bush keep overthrowing governments and installing dictators who later become our next 'evil emminent threat'.  Saddam, Noriega, OBL, Pinocet, and many more all had ties to the Bush family.  

Likewise, Nixon/Reagan/Bush people always usher in some huge plundering of public funds.  S&L scandals, Iran-Contra, the tons of Haliburton 'misconduct', and in a year or so the tons of companies are going to dump their mismanaged pension funds and get a nice bailout from the US government (just like United Airlines).  It's essentially Enron accounting meets the public sector, except it's been going on longer than Enron.
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« Reply #155 on: June 21, 2005, 03:51:57 PM »

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and true believers cannot admit defeat


Republicans don't have real jobs either.  Can you provide me with some evidence to back your statement up?  I'm sure there is a memo somewhere that quotes GW as saying we are in Iraq because "I wil not admit defeat".  

Quote
Likewise, until I get another real job, and my underemployed friends do as well, Im going to have to be pessimistic about how great the US economy is doing.


So it doesnt matter how the economy is actually doing it's all about you isnt it? All those people buing playstations, flat screen TV's, driving SUV's are obviously doing well so it won't be about them will it? I'm sorry that you don't have a good job but to let that blind you from the truth is exactly what you are accusing GW of doing.  Maybe you should not blame the economy on your career but other factors. The demand for your career choice, your location and available jobs in your area, your education/experience level are some things that I would evaluate.

Ten years ago network admins where in high demand.  Today because of the internet crash they are a dime a dozen.  The best economy in the world is still going to leave those people with few job choices.
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« Reply #156 on: June 21, 2005, 06:28:49 PM »

Quote from: "MrZubbleWump"
Quote
and true believers cannot admit defeat


Republicans don't have real jobs either.  Can you provide me with some evidence to back your statement up?


I never said Republicans dont have real jobs.

Quote
I'm sure there is a memo somewhere that quotes GW as saying we are in Iraq because "I wil not admit defeat".  


And Im sure there is a memo somewhere that quotes Torquemada saying "I will not admit defeat".

BTW, I didnt say GWB wasnt withdrawing from Iraq because he couldnt admit defeat.  We are there at least until he leaves office for the simple matter of it being so gosh darned lucrative.

Quote
Quote
Likewise, until I get another real job, and my underemployed friends do as well, Im going to have to be pessimistic about how great the US economy is doing.


So it doesnt matter how the economy is actually doing it's all about you isnt it?


When you are talking about subjective opinions, how could it possibly be about anyone other than myself?  Why would I believe the economy is doing well if I am very qualified, but still cannot find work?

An interesting sidenote- I am not 'technically' unemployed, because my unemployment benefits ran out a year and a half ago.  And now that Im making a shitty amount of money doing menial labor, statistically Im a happy smiling member of the workforce.  Gotta love that Bush Boom.

Quote
All those people buing playstations, flat screen TV's, driving SUV's are obviously doing well so it won't be about them will it? I'm sorry that you don't have a good job but to let that blind you from the truth is exactly what you are accusing GW of doing.  Maybe you should not blame the economy on your career but other factors. The demand for your career choice, your location and available jobs in your area, your education/experience level are some things that I would evaluate.


1. What people choose to squander their funds on has little to do with the economic health of the nation.
2. People being employed does not 'disprove' unemployment.
3. There is nothing 'wrong' with my demographics, aside from the fact that the government supports outsourcing my entire job sector to foreign countries, or gladly allows record numbers of work visas for foreigners to come here and undercut the job market.

Quote
Ten years ago network admins where in high demand.  Today because of the internet crash they are a dime a dozen.  The best economy in the world is still going to leave those people with few job choices.


The entire US tech sector was sold out with the full backing of our government.  I would be happy to post a ton of info on this if you want to start a thread on tech outsourcing.
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« Reply #157 on: June 21, 2005, 06:56:07 PM »

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1. What people choose to squander their funds on has little to do with the economic health of the nation.


Wrong.  This is a cornerstone of economics.  Whenever you are discussing the economic health of a nation, you must always consider what the population of said nation is buying and how much.  Spending money and purchasing goods is what drives an economy, what keeps companies providing goods and services in business, what keeps those companies hiring.
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« Reply #158 on: June 21, 2005, 07:09:54 PM »

Quote from: "th'FOOL"
Quote
1. What people choose to squander their funds on has little to do with the economic health of the nation.


Wrong.  This is a cornerstone of economics.  Whenever you are discussing the economic health of a nation, you must always consider what the population of said nation is buying and how much.  Spending money and purchasing goods is what drives an economy, what keeps companies providing goods and services in business, what keeps those companies hiring.


Assuming, of course, that said population has money to spend.

How is the console market doing in Africa?

And when talking about the 'health' of an economy, frivolous expenses have little to do with actual health.  Indices of such would be stable jobs, a healthy balance of import and export for goods and services, health care, etc.  Consumerism is low on the totem pole regarding 'health', since consumerism is what people do with surplus funds.
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« Reply #159 on: June 21, 2005, 07:17:59 PM »

and the goalposts continue to move....
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