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Author Topic: So how's the War on Terra going, George?  (Read 20395 times)
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unbreakable
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« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2005, 03:26:13 AM »

For example, all of these are excellent fodder for discussion.  In fact, they could support an entire thread all by themselves-

Quote from: "Fireball1244"
There have been more terrorist attacks against US citizens since 9/11 than before -- it's just that we've conveniently relocated some choice targets to the Middle Eastern sphere.

The number of terrorist attacks worldwide has SKYROCKETED since 2001. Through the roof. The White House was so humiliated by the State Department's 2004 terrorism report that they forbade the Department from ever issuing another.

America is less respected, has less allies and is generally less safe than it was before Bush's Folly in Iraq. Bush's torture scandals (and yes, the authorizations for torture go up to the highest levels of the Administration) have destroyed America's moral authority. This country's international reputation has never been lower. And we're not one bit safer.


Quote from: "Fireball1244"
The whole notion of a "war on terrorism" is asinine. Terrorism isn't a group, it isn't a collective, it isn't a country. It's an illegitimate military tactic (you know, like torture). Fighting a "war on terrorism" is as stupid as fighting a "war on strategic bombing raids."

What we need to have been fighting is a careful, focused assault on those specific networks which pose a true threat to the Western world. You do that by first toppling their puppet government -- the Taliban. Good job on that, unfortunately we've completely screwed up the postgame. We also need to be securing and destroying the world's nuclear stockpiles. Bush has totally ignored that threat. But mostly we need to be building a strong, unified Western front, and Bush has made it impossible to do that.

Do you know we now claim the right to swoop in anywhere in the world, grab anyone we want, hold them for as long as we like and never charge them with anything or even let them speak to counsel? What gives us that right?


Quote from: "unbreakable"
If you want to see how little GWB cares about real terrorism, keep an eye on one of the the Bush family terrorists, Luis Posada Carilles.  If they truly wanted to prosecute terrorists, the man responsible for blowing up an airplane and all 73 people on board would have been extradited to Venezuela already.


Quote
Quote from: "Fireball1244"
Yes. US Soldiers in Iraq, where we have no business being, and US civilians in the same arena, are the present targets of anti-US terrorist attacks.


Bush just got busted cooking the books on environmental data.  Apparently they have no qualms about cooking the books on troop fatality data, either.  The dead and injured may possible be on par with Vietnam.
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th'FOOL
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« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2005, 03:28:37 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Do you guys flame everyone who posts a link to an article without 'asking' for comments?


No, I call out a troll when someone links to an article with a baited thread title.  That is ALL I was doing.
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Mike Dunn
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unbreakable
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« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2005, 03:33:27 AM »

Quote from: "th'FOOL"
Quote from: "unbreakable"
Do you guys flame everyone who posts a link to an article without 'asking' for comments?


No, I call out a troll when someone links to an article with a baited thread title.  That is ALL I was doing.


Ah, so that and your thousand follow-ups were just what, reinforcement?

th'Fool, do you ever, for a minute of your life, ever think that sometime, just sometimes, you may be wrong? Or maybe not even completely right? Seriously, man, why DO you post in these threads?
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th'FOOL
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« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2005, 03:40:41 AM »

Sigh.  Allright, this is pointless.  Have your little Bush-bashing (and NO I AM NOT DEFENDING, CONDONING, or otherwise fellating George W. Bush) circle-jerk, I'm not going to be baited by you any further.
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« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2005, 03:47:25 AM »

Quote
For example, all of these are excellent fodder for discussion. In fact, they could support an entire thread all by themselves- ....


Eh, I don't really think these are good fodder for discussion at all.  They're good fodder for loud, violent arguments between people who completely disagree and aren't going to come around to the other person's viewpoint in a million years.

And besides, these topics are so old...they're not interesting at all, because they've been discussed to death, if not here, than on other boards like OO.  Let it go, already.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2005, 03:53:43 AM »

First post- unbreakable, Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:39 pm

Second post- th'Fool, Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:40 pm (one minute later!)
Quote
troll much?


th'Fool- Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:56 pm
Quote
If I thought the thread was actually started to initiate discussion I would have gladly joined it. As it is, the thread title and subsequent post is more guilty of what you are speaking of than my brief comment about it is.

I calls 'em how I sees 'em.


Raven, Wed Jun 15, 2005 6:49 pm
Quote
The thread starter sounds almost happy that OBL hasn't been caught.


Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:30 pm
FIRST REPLY from me, SEVEN HOURS LATER

YOUR post was the obvious troll, and was dismissed in a similar manner as my response to Raven.

I did, however, address two actual points, mentioning the Bush-sheltered terrorist Luis Posada Carilles, and discussing how injury and death statistics were being cooked.

So you used TWO attacks against me in the seven hours between the creation of the thread, and my first reply.  Your first attack was ONE MINUTE after the thread was created.  As usual, the Ad Hominem is an excellent way to prevent discussion of topics you would rather people not discuss.  Good thing you arent a moderator.  Speaking of which, Im curious what they think of the behaviours of the various parties involved in the flamage.

Quote from: "th'FOOL"
Sigh.  Allright, this is pointless.  Have your little Bush-bashing (and NO I AM NOT DEFENDING, CONDONING, or otherwise fellating George W. Bush) circle-jerk, I'm not going to be baited by you any further.


Oh, of course.  My entire intent in creating the thread was to bait you

He enters with an Ad Hominem, and he leaves with one.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2005, 03:59:07 AM »

Quote from: "Gwar21"
Eh, I don't really think these are good fodder for discussion at all.  They're good fodder for loud, violent arguments between people who completely disagree and aren't going to come around to the other person's viewpoint in a million years.


Sure.  Many people would rather 'balance' facts with 'opinion'.  Which is exactly why discussions involving those ugly facts are suppressed.  Which is exactly why they are even more important.

Quote
And besides, these topics are so old...they're not interesting at all, because they've been discussed to death, if not here, than on other boards like OO.  Let it go, already.


I wouldnt go to OO if someone paid me.  Second, Im not a member of another board, nor do I feel the need to join another board.

If you don't feel adult enough to partake in the discussion, why do you feel the need to suppress people who wish to do so?
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unbreakable
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« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2005, 04:26:07 AM »

Can the adults get back to discussing things?

Quote from: "whiteboyskim"
At least find corroborating evidence on a BBC site at least. slywink


Ok, how about this?

Personally, it saddens me that a US President would attack a country, sell it to us with an orchestrated campaign of misinformation, and there is NO public outcry.  It isnt even that people never spoke out against it- there were TONS of people saying Bush was misleading people.  But the media was being muzzled, and any questioning of the President or his motives wer discouraged.

Is Bush planning on attacking anyone else?  I think it's important for us, as citizens, to know this.  What he did is clearly illegal.  There are laws created entirely for the purpose of preventing this kind of thing.  The case for attacking Iraq wasnt an intelligence failure, it was a campaign to take random bits of information, and build a seemingly convincing case on it.  Then they continued to beat the drum, and sing the same song, KNOWING it was contrary to fact.  There are also laws against giving false and/or misleading information to congress.

Some people think these things are important to the country.  If someone doesnt, why such hostility toward those who do?
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Fireball
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« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2005, 05:14:04 AM »

Quote from: "Zarkon"
So we invade Iraq basically because Saddam is a Bad Person...which is true, but we're the one who put him there.


Technically, the Soviet Union put him in power. Saddam's Iraq was originally a Soviet client state. However, when the Shah was deposed, we cajoled him with weapons and money to switch over to our side.

We also trained some of what would become Al Qaeda to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

You know, if we want to stop fighting monsters, we should probably stop giving them weapons.
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Raven
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« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2005, 05:32:57 AM »

Quote
YOUR post was the obvious troll, and was dismissed in a similar manner as my response to Raven.


The first troll, in the thread, was your title.

And, as I have already pointed out, I never disputed your first post, so the Ad Hominem accusation has no merit.
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SuperHiro
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« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2005, 05:54:52 AM »

I don't know what you guys are talking about, but this thread is hella awesome.  It's like condensed funny in a can.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2005, 07:08:22 AM »

Glad you like it.  Just dont spew Kim Chi at anyone, mkay?
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El Guapo
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« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2005, 07:57:38 AM »

ah, and once again a political thread on the internet comes to a conclusion, with the problem having been expeditiously resolved.  Like magic, isn't it?
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unbreakable
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« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2005, 08:50:06 AM »

I dunno, as I said before, if you remove all the comments dealing with two posters and all their ad hominem bullshit, it isnt too bad.  

It's a shame some people refuse to let others speak.  I like having a good, fact-based discussion.
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Zarkon
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« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2005, 01:05:00 PM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Can the adults get back to discussing things?

Quote from: "whiteboyskim"
At least find corroborating evidence on a BBC site at least. slywink


Ok, how about this?

Personally, it saddens me that a US President would attack a country, sell it to us with an orchestrated campaign of misinformation, and there is NO public outcry.  It isnt even that people never spoke out against it- there were TONS of people saying Bush was misleading people.  But the media was being muzzled, and any questioning of the President or his motives wer discouraged.


No public outcry?  You missed all the anti-war protests that came up when we invaded.  Oh.  What, you didn't hear about them?  Right.  That'd be because the media corporations expressly told their affiliates to NOT COVER said events.  I know that San Francisco had an especially large anti-war protest.

Quote from: "unbreakable"


Is Bush planning on attacking anyone else?  I think it's important for us, as citizens, to know this.  What he did is clearly illegal.  There are laws created entirely for the purpose of preventing this kind of thing.  The case for attacking Iraq wasnt an intelligence failure, it was a campaign to take random bits of information, and build a seemingly convincing case on it.  Then they continued to beat the drum, and sing the same song, KNOWING it was contrary to fact.  There are also laws against giving false and/or misleading information to congress.

Will he invade someone else?  Um.  If anyone, my guess is going to be Iran, which scares the hell out of me.
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Zarkon
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« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2005, 01:05:58 PM »

Quote from: "Fireball1244"
Quote from: "Zarkon"
So we invade Iraq basically because Saddam is a Bad Person...which is true, but we're the one who put him there.


Technically, the Soviet Union put him in power. Saddam's Iraq was originally a Soviet client state. However, when the Shah was deposed, we cajoled him with weapons and money to switch over to our side.

We also trained some of what would become Al Qaeda to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.

You know, if we want to stop fighting monsters, we should probably stop giving them weapons.


Okay, my bad on the Saddam being a US puppet.  However, the rest of what you said?  Yeah.  Right freaking on.  We've got a bad habit of putting people in power or helping them stay in power then it biting us in the ass later on.
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Devil
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« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2005, 01:19:13 PM »

Quote
I don't know what you guys are talking about, but this thread is hella awesome. It's like condensed funny in a can.


unbreakable should move the soap box to the stage on open mike night at The Chuckle Hut!
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« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2005, 02:37:28 PM »

Will Dubya invade another country? IMO the only reason he hasn't already is because of our troop levels. We've got so many our guys getting killed over in Iraq that we would be stretched too thin to move in on Iran (another country that threatens us in no way) or North Korea.

We can capture Saddam Hussein, who had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 and didn't want war with us in the first place, but we can't capture the real terrorist - bin laden. The posters who say terrorism has increased are absolutely right.
Americans are being killed every day, whether it's a suicide bombing or a road side bombing, or it's civilians being kidnapped and executed.. those are all forms of terrorism.
None of this existed under Hussein (who I'm in no way defending) and like the guy or not, we had no business going over there. Just because we don't agree with the way one guy runs his country doesn't give us the right to invade it and install our own puppet regime. If the threatened us then that's another story. But any person with a little intelligence knows Iraq posed no threat to the United States.

I woudn't say this is a liberal board at all, either. I'm a registered republican and I can tell you there are plenty of Republicans who are against the unjustified war going on in Iraq right now. (Look at my sig) Republicans, Democrats, and Independents stand united against Dubya's conquest of the world.
Let this guy put on a uniform and go on the front lines. Or send his daughters to serve in Iraq.
No, he'll sit in an air-conditioned mansion or rance with security all over the place spewing his hatred and threats against the rest of the world while he signs a paper sending young americans over seas to fight and die for unjust wars we should never be in in the first place.
He says Bin Laden sits in a cave and sends young people to die for him. Sounds like he needs to take a good look in the mirror.

Bottom line, and personally agree with it or not, Iraq was a war of Dubya's choice and Saddam posed no threat what so ever to the security of the United States, period.
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« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2005, 03:12:08 PM »

Quote
It's a shame some people refuse to let others speak. I like having a good, fact-based discussion.


unbreakable, I have as much of a problem with the Bush administration's policies as anyone, but even I would have to side with th'FOOL and Raven that this thread had little chance of ever producing a fact-based discussion...or even anything civil enough to qualify as a "discussion" at all.  Whether you intended it or not, the post that started this thread is exactly the sort of thing that conservatives will use to suggest that liberals are somehow taking pleasure from this *incredibly* destructive foreign policy.

Turn on any conservative pundit, commentator, or talkshow host for fifteen minutes.  Take your pick.  Now try another.  Notice anything?  One of the core principles at the heart of modern American Conservativism is the absolute and unquestioned belief that liberals are evil.

I'm going to say that again because it really bears repeating, unbreakable: the people you're trying to open a fact-based discussion with believe from the start that your political views are founded in a seething hatred for America and a pure, malicious desire to see it destroyed in as painful a way as possible.

Now go back and read your original post.  It's vague, it insults the way Bush speaks, it includes absolutely no new facts, and it cites Al Qaeda as a source of information for how the War on Terror is failing.  In your wildest dreams, what is the best thing you could possibly have expected to happen with people who were already assuming you want the war to fail?

Even if this forum were 100% liberal, this thread couldn't have produced anything constructive.

If you're at all interested in starting up an actual fact-based discussion with conservatives, here are some rules that you need to keep in mind:

1) Cite your facts, cite your source, and be *extremely* specific on your point of view.  Do you think it's a good thing or a bad thing that Osama Bin Laden is still on the loose?  Why?  How does it help or hurt America?  If you leave these sorts of questions unanswered and let people try to interpret your point of view, conservatives will start from the belief that you hate this country.

2) Assume your facts and your source will be called into question, and provide corroborating evidence from a different source whenever possible.  Remember that in the mind of a conservative, the only truthful journalist is one who's saying something good about Republicans and something bad about Democrats.  Our own government publishes reports on a regular basis that conflict with the Bush administration's rhetoric, like the World Terrorism Reports that Fireball1244 cited in his first post -- cite facts from as many different sorts of sources as possible.

3) Learn to read past personal insults.  Mentally edit them out of whatever you're reading.  Do not respond to them, and absolutely do *NOT* respond in kind.  Again: if you're trying to communicate with someone who assumes from the start that you're literally evil, you have to assume that attitude is going to be reflected in their attitude.  Keep the discussion focussed tightly on the facts, and don't say or even suggest anything that might reinforce their assumptions about you.

4) Check out a conservative viewpoint in advance.  Republicans are so reliant on the strategy of "staying on message" that you'll often find that they're all saying pretty much the same thing at exactly the same time.  The best possible way to prepare yourself for your detractors is to check out what Rush Limbaugh, Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly are all saying on the subject.

5) Check out conservative viewpoints on other similar topics in advance, too.  If you think conservative principles conflict with liberal principles, watch what happens when you try to apply two different conservative principles to the same topic.  Was Terri Schaivo about a culture of life, or about Big Government infinging on individual rights?  Is our incredible federal deficit necessary in a time of war, or does it demonstrate an incredible level of fiscal irresponsibility?  If America is supposed to be a Christian nation that cherishes life and the virtues of charity, why are we slashing federal programs with a proven record of helping the poorest Americans to justify a tax cut for the wealthiest 0.1% of Americans?  If you can identify a "strong conservative value," odds are pretty damn good that you can find a "good conservative policy" that is diametrically opposed.

6) Finally, the only reason you should ever attempt a debate like this is if you're trying to change your own mind.  If you're not prepared to hear the other side out and really consider their point of view, you're wasting your time.  You'd never waste your time trying to debate someone else into giving up their religious faith, so don't bother trying to convince someone else to give up their belief in a vast liberal media conspiracy.  Instead, spend your time looking for valid points from the opposition you hadn't considered before, and if you can't address them, be prepared to admit that you hadn't thought about the issue that way.  Your opposition may believe you're evil but don't ever make the mistake of thinking the same about them.

-Autistic Angel
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Raven
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« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2005, 04:26:59 PM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
I dunno, as I said before, if you remove all the comments dealing with two posters and all their ad hominem bullshit, it isnt too bad.  

It's a shame some people refuse to let others speak.  I like having a good, fact-based discussion.


Do you get paid every time you say ad hominem?

As I've already pointed out several times, I was not disputing the accuracy of your link, so the ad hominem accusation has absolutely no merit.

None
Zip
Zero
Nada

And even though my comment was absolutely not ad hominem, your first reply in my latest illegal immigration thread most certainly was, but you won't respond to that little fact, because it makes you a hypocrite.
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« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2005, 04:33:07 PM »

Quote from: "whiteboyskim"



meet


Still living in fantasy land, eh?  That's right, it's all a big conspiracy to trick you!  The government never lies!  Bush isn't buddies with the bin Ladens!  All those pictures on the 'net of them shaking hands, hugging, and kissing were photoshopped by us in order to trick you!  The missing WMDs in Iraq?  Yeah, that was us too.  We stole them all and hid them away to make you think Saddam never had them.

Damn...all of that work for nothing.  It appears you are just too damned smart for us.  :roll:

glyc
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« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2005, 05:27:16 PM »

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I'm simply saying that Osama Bin Laden has nothing to do with winning/losing the war on terrror.


I agree with that statement. I'm glad you made yourself a little more clear too. I thought you were saying, "I don't care about any other life except those that live in the USA."

Sorry.

Quote
Often people will say silly things to other people like "I will pray for you etc." and what they really mean is that "I'm better than you and I want you to know it". I hope you are not doing that.


I wouldn't do that. If that is how I came across, I apologize and hope you can accept that apology.
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« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2005, 07:35:11 PM »

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Bottom line, and personally agree with it or not, Iraq was a war of Dubya's choice and Saddam posed no threat what so ever to the security of the United States, period.


Another knee slapper!! Where do you guys get this stuff, much less pass it off as cold, hard facts.

Thanks for shedding some light on the situation - a couple of guys on the net always have access to more info the the Govt, especially a conservative president. Don't know what I was thinking...
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« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2005, 07:40:31 PM »

Hey, Devil?  Instead of poking at his statement, how about showing us some facts (preferably -not- from the US Government) showing that Saddam -was- a threat?  

Give us some evidence, and we might understand that.  Personally, I tend to agree with them.  While Saddam was a very bad 'world leader', guilty of many human rights crimes, et al....he posed no direct threat to the United States.  

Yes, Iraq had many terrorist camps, but so do most of the Middle Eastern countries.  Does that give us the right to turn them into the United States of The Middle East?  No.  Like I said, it's not the role of the military to take care of this stuff.  That's what the FBI, CIA, MI-6 (or 5, whichever), the Mossad and the other groups out there are for.
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« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2005, 07:53:23 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Quote
Bottom line, and personally agree with it or not, Iraq was a war of Dubya's choice and Saddam posed no threat what so ever to the security of the United States, period.


Another knee slapper!! Where do you guys get this stuff, much less pass it off as cold, hard facts.


Evidence to the contrary? The Bush Administration certainly hasn't been able to show that the war on Iraq was anything BUT a choice. Nor has there been one shred of evidence presented that indicates ANY sort of threat against the US from Saddam.

In fact, basically everything Bush and his cabal claimed prior to the needless invasion has since been shown to have been untrue: there was no link to al-Qaeda, there were no weapons of mass destruction. So, why, precisely, are we over there? What compelling national interest was there to throw away 1,700 American lives?
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« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2005, 10:00:29 PM »

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Hey, Devil? Instead of poking at his statement, how about showing us some facts (preferably -not- from the US Government) showing that Saddam -was- a threat?


Show you some facts?!? Where am I going to get facts? Who the hell am I?

Go google "Saddam+wmd+proof", read everything you come back with from both sides and tell me there's a definitive answer. There isn't. Oh, I'm sure you'd like to think there is, I know you hope there is, but I'm going to say that you and I will never know the truth about this shit (or most other things like this) because WE simply don't have all the information. I'm going to say that everyone in congress, dems, republicans, EVERYONE has more info than we'll ever know.

I have enough faith in people (W, Clinton, Hillary, Gore, Kerry, Kennedy, Cheney, whoever is president) that I think whoever is in charge, is actually trying to do the right thing.

This is why I spend a lot less time in the other forum. The pissing contests and know-it-alls seemed to take over the place. I'm not accusing anyone of anything but I'm smart enough to know that NONE of us could actually run this country so maybe we shouldn't act like we could.
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« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2005, 10:21:26 PM »

and this thread isn't a pissing contest?
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« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2005, 10:25:54 PM »

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and this thread isn't a pissing contest?


THAT is my point.
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Zarkon
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« Reply #68 on: June 16, 2005, 10:42:03 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"


I have enough faith in people (W, Clinton, Hillary, Gore, Kerry, Kennedy, Cheney, whoever is president) that I think whoever is in charge, is actually trying to do the right thing.

This is why I spend a lot less time in the other forum. The pissing contests and know-it-alls seemed to take over the place. I'm not accusing anyone of anything but I'm smart enough to know that NONE of us could actually run this country so maybe we shouldn't act like we could.


Okay, fair enough.  See, that's where we differ.  My faith in the Bush Presidency has plummeted since 9/11.  Why?  Preferential treatment in governmental contracts for Faith-based groups (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/08/17/MNGLC89C1I1.DTL and http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/12/politics/main532793.shtml, not to mention http://www.google.com/search?q=bush+faith-based+government+contract&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official)
is one of the main reasons.  The invasion of Iraq and the scandals involving it and Guatanamo Bay are another.  The fact that America's image has gone to hell in the past four years, the fact that more countries dislike the United States (and Bush in particular) than any time before, including our allies (France, German, Britian and Japan)...Bush literally scares the hell out of me.  The only person I'd want to see -less- than him is Joseph Lieberman.
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« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2005, 10:49:49 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
I'm going to say that everyone in congress, dems, republicans, EVERYONE has more info than we'll ever know.


The 9/11 Commission had access to the exact same facts the White House did, and they found not a single credible link between Iraq and 9/11.  However, recent information coming out of the UK claims that information was being 'fixed' around supporting an invasion of Iraq, meaning invading Iraq was a foregone conclusion, and had nothing to do with cause.

Quote
I have enough faith in people (W, Clinton, Hillary, Gore, Kerry, Kennedy, Cheney, whoever is president) that I think whoever is in charge, is actually trying to do the right thing.


Thats a pretty dangerous mindset.  Is there any other group of people you dont hold accountable for their actions?

Quote
I'm not accusing anyone of anything but I'm smart enough to know that NONE of us could actually run this country so maybe we shouldn't act like we could.


Hmm.  This is a democracy.  I would like to think that any of us could run the country, and likewise it is our obligation to keep our leaders in line.  People in power, abusing their power?  Im sure that never happens...
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« Reply #70 on: June 16, 2005, 11:44:23 PM »

Do you really think your right? I mean, do you REALLY think that what's rattling around in that head of yours is the ultimate truth?

If you do, then I'm sure that there's nothing I can say to sway you and that's fine.

Have fun!  smile
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« Reply #71 on: June 16, 2005, 11:48:16 PM »

Until there is evidence to the contrary, why wouldnt I believe Im right?  A lack of proof isnt proof of anything...

Has anyone posted a SINGLE supporting piece of anything showing that Iraq posed a threat to the USA?  If you can do so, you are way ahead of any evidence anybody in the world had.

Contrary to the Republican talking points, both France and Russia outright said there was NOTHING showing Saddam was a threat to anyone, much less possessed WMD.  Saddam didnt 'fool the world', nor did any past US Presidents think Saddam posed enough of a threat to warrant removing him.
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« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2005, 11:49:04 PM »

You'll see what you want to see.
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« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2005, 11:52:33 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
You'll see what you want to see.


So do you have anything to add, besides your opinion that everyone here is wrong, and you are right?
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« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2005, 12:06:47 AM »

...and you haven't understood anything I've written - I DON'T FEEL THE NEED TO BE RIGHT!!!!

I'm not preaching to anyone, hating anyone or starting a crusade on a gaming web site to show how smart I am and how I'm changing the world by bashing a prseident that I hate.

I'm fine with MY opinion and MY vote. I'm not looking to prove anything.

I've done nothing to contradict your side of this argument and I think that's what you have a problem with. You need to show us what you know.

So bring it! Give me everything - Here you go:

We had every reason to go into Iraq because they had WMDs and blood for oil and Gittmo is great! I'm right!! Al Franken sucks!!

Fire away!
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« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2005, 12:35:35 AM »

Quote from: "Devil"
I'm not preaching to anyone, hating anyone or starting a crusade on a gaming web site to show how smart I am and how I'm changing the world by bashing a prseident that I hate.


Well, since that is what you believe, I feel really, really sad for you.
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« Reply #76 on: June 17, 2005, 12:41:09 AM »

Sad away!

I feel great about myself!
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« Reply #77 on: June 17, 2005, 12:54:44 AM »

Quote from: "Devil"
...and you haven't understood anything I've written - I DON'T FEEL THE NEED TO BE RIGHT!!!!


And this, of course, explains it all.

But you obviously feel the need for something, because you keep posting when you clearly state you have nothing to add to the conversation.
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« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2005, 01:16:48 AM »

I really don't have anything to say - I just enjoy dragging this out with you. Watch - I'll do it again in another thread!

It's fun!!

We're the only two posting in here and I still haven't given you anything!

Your turn! biggrin
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« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2005, 01:37:41 AM »

Quote from: "Devil"
You'll see what you want to see.


So you claim. Yet you've no evidence of this, either.

It seems the only one not trying to have an actual conversation here is you. So why keep posting?
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