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Author Topic: So how's the War on Terra going, George?  (Read 20359 times)
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unbreakable
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« on: June 15, 2005, 06:39:59 PM »

Bin Laden alive and well, Taliban ally says

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - Osama bin Laden is alive and in good health, as is fugitive Taliban chief Mullah Mohammed Omar, a purported senior commander of the ousted militia said Wednesday in a television interview.
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th'FOOL
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2005, 07:40:17 PM »

troll much?
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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2005, 08:06:40 PM »

I'll feed the troll.

I'd say that the war on terror is going good.  If this was a war against Osama Bin  Laden then I would say that the war has been a draw but it's not.  The fact that there have not been any acts of terror against the U.S. since 9/11 pretty much speaks for itself.
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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2005, 08:10:47 PM »

Quote from: "MrZubbleWump"
I'll feed the troll.

I'd say that the war on terror is going good.  If this was a war against Osama Bin  Laden then I would say that the war has been a draw but it's not.  The fact that there have not been any acts of terror against the U.S. since 9/11 pretty much speaks for itself.



I don't want to get into a huge debate but I am not sure your standard is all that great for measuring the sucess.

Terrorist attacks around the globe have increased which would imply that the war on terror is not suceeding.
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MrZubbleWump
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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2005, 09:26:10 PM »

Quote
Terrorist attacks around the globe have increased which would imply that the war on terror is not suceeding.


As you said it's not worth debating.  I agree that if you look at Iraq then it appears that terrorism is on a rise. It can be argued that Iraq is a magnet for terrorism and that it is easier to fight hundreds of terrorists that are in one location rather than a few here and there spread all over the planet.   I'm not saying that it's the best way to fight a war on terrorism but it appears to have kept the U.S.  free from suicide bombers so far.

At any rate the fact that Osama is still alive has nothing to do with winning or losing the war on terrorism.
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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2005, 09:29:26 PM »

Quote from: "MrZubbleWump"
I'll feed the troll.

I'd say that the war on terror is going good.  If this was a war against Osama Bin  Laden then I would say that the war has been a draw but it's not.  The fact that there have not been any acts of terror against the U.S. since 9/11 pretty much speaks for itself.


Nonsense. Absolute, complete nonsense. There have been more terrorist attacks against US citizens since 9/11 than before -- it's just that we've conveniently relocated some choice targets to the Middle Eastern sphere.

The number of terrorist attacks worldwide has SKYROCKETED since 2001. Through the roof. The White House was so humiliated by the State Department's 2004 terrorism report that they forbade the Department from ever issuing another.

America is less respected, has less allies and is generally less safe than it was before Bush's Folly in Iraq. Bush's torture scandals (and yes, the authorizations for torture go up to the highest levels of the Administration) have destroyed America's moral authority. This country's international reputation has never been lower. And we're not one bit safer.

But hey, at least the government can now sneak and peek into anyone's home whenever they want without due process or even informing the person. That's what freedom's all about, right?
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2005, 09:45:24 PM »

Quote from: "th'FOOL"
troll much?


Seriously... if you really want a discussion, as opposed to just trying to rile people up, there's that *other* board, ya know...
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MrZubbleWump
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2005, 09:48:21 PM »

Quote
Nonsense. Absolute, complete nonsense. There have been more terrorist attacks against US citizens since 9/11 than before -- it's just that we've conveniently relocated some choice targets to the Middle Eastern sphere.

The number of terrorist attacks worldwide has SKYROCKETED since 2001. Through the roof. The White House was so humiliated by the State Department's 2004 terrorism report that they forbade the Department from ever issuing another.


I don't want to sound like the ugly American but why should I care about terrorism in another country besides the U.S?  I pay taxes to the U.S. gov't to provide security to this coutry (not another country).  What choice targets where conveniently moved to the Middle Easter sphere? Do you mean U.S. soldiers?  So you think we should have left the U.S. soldiers in the U.S. so that the terrorists could fight them in the U.S. and blow up U.S. citizens?  How exactly would that make you feel about winning the war on terrorism?
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2005, 09:56:47 PM »

Quote from: "Laner"
Quote from: "th'FOOL"
troll much?


Seriously... if you really want a discussion, as opposed to just trying to rile people up, there's that *other* board, ya know...


If I thought the thread was actually started to initiate discussion I would have gladly joined it.  As it is, the thread title and subsequent post is more guilty of what you are speaking of than my brief comment about it is.

I calls 'em how I sees 'em.
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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2005, 09:57:51 PM »

Wow!  He said they are doing great so they must be!  Because why would he lie?  

 :roll:

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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2005, 10:08:31 PM »

Quote from: "MrZubbleWump"
I don't want to sound like the ugly American but why should I care about terrorism in another country besides the U.S?


US citizens and US companies are often targets and/or collateral damage. And the spread of terrorism ANYWHERE increases its "acceptance" and thus the chance of it being used basically everywhere. Plus, all human life is of equal intrinsic value, be it American, Argentinian or Armenian. We in this nation used to be the leading champion for human rights around the world, fighting what was literally a good fight. Not so much anymore.

Quote
I pay taxes to the U.S. gov't to provide security to this coutry (not another country).  


Ah. Isolationism. Yeah. That's worked so well everytime we've tried it.

Quote
What choice targets where conveniently moved to the Middle Easter sphere? Do you mean U.S. soldiers?


Yes. US Soldiers in Iraq, where we have no business being, and US civilians in the same arena, are the present targets of anti-US terrorist attacks.

Quote
So you think we should have left the U.S. soldiers in the U.S. so that the terrorists could fight them in the U.S. and blow up U.S. citizens?


That's just an incredibly stupid proposition. We should have kept our army, and our entire foreign policy establishment, focused on actual terrorist threats, and not dropped most of them into the meaningless, pointless quagmire that is Iraq. There are about a hundred things we could have used the foreign policy clout that we've now lost and the military might that we've now squandered that would actually have made our nation truly more secure. But the imbeciles running our country in the ground decided it was better to go after a big, splashy, meaningless "bad guy" who we could visibly knock down rather than fight the true, less visible, less poll-bumping fights that actually need to be fought.

Quote
How exactly would that make you feel about winning the war on terrorism?


The whole notion of a "war on terrorism" is asinine. Terrorism isn't a group, it isn't a collective, it isn't a country. It's an illegitimate military tactic (you know, like torture). Fighting a "war on terrorism" is as stupid as fighting a "war on strategic bombing raids."

What we need to have been fighting is a careful, focused assault on those specific networks which pose a true threat to the Western world. You do that by first toppling their puppet government -- the Taliban. Good job on that, unfortunately we've completely screwed up the postgame. We also need to be securing and destroying the world's nuclear stockpiles. Bush has totally ignored that threat. But mostly we need to be building a strong, unified Western front, and Bush has made it impossible to do that.

Do you know we now claim the right to swoop in anywhere in the world, grab anyone we want, hold them for as long as we like and never charge them with anything or even let them speak to counsel? What gives us that right?

The pointless War on Iraq, and now the torture revelations, have been such staggeringly huge mistakes. We now have more enemies in the Middle East than we ever did before 2001. Bush has recruited an entire new generation of terrorists who hate the Western world, and the uprise in terrorist attacks shows what the Bush doctrines have wrought.

We had a real moment in September 2001 to rally the world to a great purpose. We just didn't have the real leadership necessary to do it, and now we're worse off than we were before.
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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2005, 10:45:03 PM »

Quote
I don't want to sound like the ugly American but why should I care about terrorism in another country besides the U.S?


You don't sound like an ugly American. You sound like an ugly human.

I'm feel sad for you, truly I do.

 :cry:
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« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2005, 12:49:12 AM »

The thread starter sounds almost happy that OBL hasn't been caught.
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« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2005, 12:58:26 AM »

Quote
Quote:
I don't want to sound like the ugly American but why should I care about terrorism in another country besides the U.S?


You don't sound like an ugly American. You sound like an ugly human.

I'm feel sad for you, truly I do.

 


Ouch.  Are you serious?  You feel sad for me?  You don't know me. I don't know you.  So, how do you feel sad for someone when all that you know about them is based up one sentence? Often people will say silly things to other people like "I will pray for you etc." and what they really mean is that "I'm better than you and I want you to know it". I hope you are not doing that  :roll:

I did forget that this is probably a dominant liberal board.  That's why you are attacking what I say and not the Osama quote.  My posts have been attempting to explain that the war on terror has nothing to do with Osama while it has everything to do with terror.  The fact that terrorism has not occured on U.S. soil since 911 is a remarkable thing and does suggest that something is working.  Obviously I feel sorry for the loss of innocent life on this planet wherever it occurs but that's not what I was talking about.  The war on terror in this country is about protecting this country and it's citizens from terrorism not protecting Iraqi, Israel ior even Irish citizens from terrorism.

I'm not debating whether or not we should be in Iraq.  I'm not debating that terrorism is evil or good.  I'm simply saying that Osama Bin Laden has nothing to do with winning/losing the war on terrror.
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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2005, 01:30:56 AM »

Quote from: "Raven"
The thread starter sounds almost happy that OBL hasn't been caught.


Yes, I hate America.  You found me out.

OBL will never be captured.  Why would Bush capture and prosecute a family friend?  If you want to really make your head spin, consider the fact that the Hinkley family are longtime friends with the Bush's as well  :shock:

Quote from: "MrZubbleWump"
I'd say that the war on terror is going good. If this was a war against Osama Bin Laden then I would say that the war has been a draw but it's not. The fact that there have not been any acts of terror against the U.S. since 9/11 pretty much speaks for itself.


Another serving of Post Hoc, anyone?

If you want to see how little GWB cares about real terrorism, keep an eye on one of the the Bush family terrorists, Luis Posada Carilles.  If they truly wanted to prosecute terrorists, the man responsible for blowing up an airplane and all 73 people on board would have been extradited to Venezuela already.

Quote from: "th'Fool"
If I thought the thread was actually started to initiate discussion I would have gladly joined it. As it is, the thread title and subsequent post is more guilty of what you are speaking of than my brief comment about it is.


Yes, get your Ad Hominem in early and often.

Quote from: "Fireball1244"
Yes. US Soldiers in Iraq, where we have no business being, and US civilians in the same arena, are the present targets of anti-US terrorist attacks.


Bush just got busted cooking the books on environmental data.  Apparently they have no qualms about cooking the books on troop fatality data, either.  The dead and injured may possible be on par with Vietnam.

But pointing that out that 7000+ soldiers are dead, and refusing to drink the kool aid, just means we hate America  
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« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2005, 01:35:22 AM »

I didn't say you hate America. I did say your post sounded like you were happy about OBL not being caught.
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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2005, 01:41:16 AM »

Quote from: "Raven"
I didn't say you hate America. I did say your post sounded like you were happy about OBL not being caught.


That is too stupid to respond to in any meaningful way.
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« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2005, 01:48:46 AM »

I pretty much think that about every opinion you have  finger

Here's the title of the thread:

Quote
So how's the War on Terra going, George?


Well, you certainly don't seem unhappy about it. More smug than anything else.
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« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2005, 01:50:41 AM »

Quote from: "Raven"
I pretty much think that about every opinion you have  finger


So consider that before hitting 'Submit'.

Funny how you and th'Fool have nothing to add besides personal attacks.  But that is pretty much par for the course if you are defending Bush.

Quote
Well, you certainly don't seem unhappy about it. More smug than anything else.


Well, considering you dont see a difference between the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, I wouldnt expect you to understand.
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« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2005, 02:01:50 AM »

Okay, here's my personal opinion, and yes, I lean to the left on many things.

First, terrorism has been a major issue in the world for years.  America has done nothing about it until we were attacked.  This, in my opinion, was a mistake.

We wait until we're attacked then go, basically, "OH NOES, TERROR IS TEH BAD!!!1!!!ONE11!!".  The rest of the world basically went, "Yeah.  Sucks to be you.  Welcome to our world."

Yeah, at that point, we could have done something to really make a difference.  Instead, we chose to target our own citizens (Freedom Act) and invade other countries.  Now, as there were distinct ties between the Taliban and Al'Qaida, invading Afghanistan made sense.  

Then came the charges that there were ties between Saddam and Al'Qaida (false).  Then the claims that Saddam had NBC weapons (or WMDs, for the Bushes out there.  By the way, that's something that always confused me.  When Bush was governor of Texas, he was an articulate speaker...now, he can't even say 'nuclear'.  Explain that one for me?  Anyway, also false).  So we invade Iraq basically because Saddam is a Bad Person...which is true, but we're the one who put him there.  Like Marcos, like Noriega...and that's not Bush's fault, that's America's.  *shrug*

We never should have gone in to Iraq.  However, now that we're there, we need to do the job right and get out...and we're not, not really.  There's a lot of problems with the way the 'war' has been run (and honestly, the War on Terror is no less a sham than the War on Drugs).  

Personally, I'm a fan of the concept of using small forces for problems.  Got a guy leading a terrorist group?  Know where he is?  Fine.  Send in black ops and shoot his ass dead.  Keep the armies for 'bigger' issues instead of being the World's Police, when it isn't needed or wanted as such.

As far as the world itself is concerned, we need to get our own shit in order before we try telling any other country how to run its business, and right now, our house is a freaking mess.  

By the way, in case you didn't catch it, this is an opinion.  Saying that I'm wrong isn't going to make me magically change my mind.  I'm willing to listen to reasoned arguments, though. smile

And none of this is meant personally to anyone else.
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« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2005, 02:04:29 AM »

...and this is the reason why we considered not having religion and politics threads.  Feels like Deja Vu all over again.
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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2005, 02:15:35 AM »

True.
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« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2005, 02:34:56 AM »

Quote
I don't want to sound like the ugly American but why should I care about terrorism in another country besides the U.S? I pay taxes to the U.S. gov't to provide security to this coutry (not another country). What choice targets where conveniently moved to the Middle Easter sphere? Do you mean U.S. soldiers? So you think we should have left the U.S. soldiers in the U.S. so that the terrorists could fight them in the U.S. and blow up U.S. citizens? How exactly would that make you feel about winning the war on terrorism?


That's a good try, MrZubbleWump, but I already wrote a bunch of posts that parodied some of the cold-hearted, selfish, ethnocentric, and bigoted ways conservatives view the world, including the way they'll rationalize the incredible loss of life by equating it to having to pay taxes.  I appreciate the way you condense Bush's foreign policy down into, "Let's get the terrorists so busy killing our troops overseas that they forget to kill our civilians," but the people on this board are already on to you.

For future reference, I think you're going a little bit over the top when you (as your conservative caricature) suggest that you're happy about offering up the lives of our troops and dooming a country full of innocent people to a full-on terrorist onslaught.  It's true that I have my problems with the conservative worldview, but even *I* wouldn't go quite that far.

Try reigning it in a little bit, and don't forget to use the words "liberty," "freedom," "patriotism," "democracy," and "September 11th" at least three times in every post.  It helps create the illusion that you actually believe in what you're saying, no matter how heartless or short-sighted it might be.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2005, 02:42:48 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Raven"
I pretty much think that about every opinion you have  finger


So consider that before hitting 'Submit'.

Funny how you and th'Fool have nothing to add besides personal attacks.  But that is pretty much par for the course if you are defending Bush.

Quote
Well, you certainly don't seem unhappy about it. More smug than anything else.


Well, considering you dont see a difference between the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, I wouldnt expect you to understand.


I'm not sure what post I've made that makes you draw these conclusions.

I wasn't defending Bush, I was simply pointing out that your reaction to OBL sounded smug.
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« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2005, 02:51:52 AM »

Quote from: "Raven"
I'm not sure what post I've made that makes you draw these conclusions.

I wasn't defending Bush, I was simply pointing out that your reaction to OBL sounded smug.


Ad Hominem
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« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2005, 02:52:33 AM »

Quote from: "Graham"
...and this is the reason why we considered not having religion and politics threads.  Feels like Deja Vu all over again.


Aside from two posters who cannot separate discussing an issue from attacking a person, it seems fine to me.

And as far as personal attacks against me go, Ive weathered far worse.  This is downright civil by comparison.
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« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2005, 02:56:35 AM »

Quote
th'Fool wrote:
If I thought the thread was actually started to initiate discussion I would have gladly joined it. As it is, the thread title and subsequent post is more guilty of what you are speaking of than my brief comment about it is.  


Yes, get your Ad Hominem in early and often.


Then please, enlighten me as to why you started this thread to begin with.  All I see is a smug self-righteousness  I don't believe that you have the open-mindedness to actually engage in an honest discourse with someone who's opinion differs from yours.  By all means, prove me wrong, it'll be a pleasant change of pace.
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« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2005, 02:58:09 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
OBL will never be captured.  Why would Bush capture and prosecute a family friend?  If you want to really make your head spin, consider the fact that the Hinkley family are longtime friends with the Bush's as well  :shock:




Quote from: "unbreakable"
Funny how you and th'Fool have nothing to add besides personal attacks. But that is pretty much par for the course if you are defending Bush.




meet

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« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2005, 02:58:24 AM »

Quote from: "th'FOOL"
Then please, enlighten me as to why you started this thread to begin with.  All I see is a smug self-righteousness  I don't believe that you have the open-mindedness to actually engage in an honest discourse with someone who's opinion differs from yours.  By all means, prove me wrong, it'll be a pleasant change of pace.


Ad Hominem
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« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2005, 02:58:28 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Raven"
I'm not sure what post I've made that makes you draw these conclusions.

I wasn't defending Bush, I was simply pointing out that your reaction to OBL sounded smug.


Ad Hominem


But that doesn't apply, because I'm not disputing that OBL is still free.
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« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2005, 02:59:39 AM »

Quote from: "Raven"
But that doesn't apply, because I'm not disputing that OBL is still free.


Exactly.  You werent pointing out anything aside from your opinion that "I sounded smug".  Thus, Ad Hominem.
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« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2005, 03:02:25 AM »

Quote from: "whiteboyskim"
{picure of pot}
meet
{picture of kettle}


Hmmm.. perhaps you should quote my attacks on them in leiu of a discussion of relevant information.

Yet another Ad Hominem.  Try again, guys, or at least throw in a straw man or something.  Mix it up, you are using the same play every down.
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« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2005, 03:02:54 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "th'FOOL"
Then please, enlighten me as to why you started this thread to begin with.  All I see is a smug self-righteousness  I don't believe that you have the open-mindedness to actually engage in an honest discourse with someone who's opinion differs from yours.  By all means, prove me wrong, it'll be a pleasant change of pace.


Ad Hominem


Yes, I know what Ad Hominem means, thank you, now please quit spamming the thread with it.  Let's just do away with formalities and use 'sticks and stones' from now one, ok?

Unbreakable, do you ever, for a minute of your life, ever think that sometime, just sometimes, you may be wrong?  Or maybe not even completely right?  Seriously, man, why DO you start these threads?
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« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2005, 03:05:22 AM »

Quote from: "th'FOOL"
Yes, I know what Ad Hominem means, thank you, now please quit spamming the thread with it. Let's just do away with formalities and use 'sticks and stones' from now one, ok?

Yes, you obviously know what Ad Hominem is.  Your every post seems to use it.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

Quote
Unbreakable, do you ever, for a minute of your life, ever think that sometime, just sometimes, you may be wrong?  Or maybe not even completely right?  Seriously, man, why DO you start these threads?


Yes, and in fact I question my accuracy probably far more than most people.  However, I dont back down when I know Im correct.  Perhaps if you guys attempted refuting what I said rather than using solely personal attacks, there would be something to discuss with you.
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« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2005, 03:08:49 AM »

edit- never mind.
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« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2005, 03:10:31 AM »

Quote from: "th'FOOL"
WHY DO YOU START THESE THREADS?????????

Just answer the friggin question!


For the same reason you post in them.

I wasnt aware that my motives were on trial here.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
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« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2005, 03:11:41 AM »

Quote from: "th'FOOL"
Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "th'FOOL"
Then please, enlighten me as to why you started this thread to begin with.  All I see is a smug self-righteousness  I don't believe that you have the open-mindedness to actually engage in an honest discourse with someone who's opinion differs from yours.  By all means, prove me wrong, it'll be a pleasant change of pace.


Ad Hominem


Yes, I know what Ad Hominem means, thank you, now please quit spamming the thread with it.  Let's just do away with formalities and use 'sticks and stones' from now one, ok?

Unbreakable, do you ever, for a minute of your life, ever think that sometime, just sometimes, you may be wrong?  Or maybe not even completely right?  Seriously, man, why DO you start these threads?


Take a step back and re-read your own post. Then re-read his thread title and original post. Then understand that he's laughing at you getting riled up and "failing" to respond to his "questions" in a proper argumentative manner. It's always about the "seriousness of the charge" regardless of whether something is true or not. Throw back facts at him of the sometimes collosal failings of past presidents (on both sides) and does it matter one bit? Nope. Because GW is the man on the clock now and he did something unbreakable didn't like and dammit it all to hell, the world and the internet is going to know all about it, by golly. Even from Taliban sources which, seriously dude, shouldn't even be quoted on general principle. At least find corroborating evidence on a BBC site at least. slywink
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Raven
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« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2005, 03:13:20 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Raven"
But that doesn't apply, because I'm not disputing that OBL is still free.


Exactly.  You werent pointing out anything aside from your opinion that "I sounded smug".  Thus, Ad Hominem.


Let's look at the definition:

Quote
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.


I wasn't rejecting your claim, so the comparison is bogus.

It's also interesting that you keep bringing up Ad Hominem attacks, when your very first reply in this thread was:

Quote
Ah, immigration. It's building up to be the non-issue of 2005, replacing abortion possibly.


I think you've just been owned  biggrin
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« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2005, 03:14:02 AM »

When you start a thread with a title like this, offering no actual opinion except for your smug play on words in the title and throw an article quote on the table like this, yes, I think your motives are indeed in question.

If you had quoted the article, offered up your opinion afterwards, and asked what everybody else thinks, then THAT is opening up a discussion.

The way you did it came off as very trollish to me and I said as much.
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Mike Dunn
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« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2005, 03:18:55 AM »

Ah, now come the justifications of why it wasnt "really" a personal attack, it was my fault.

One would think a person associated with CG would at least have enough respect for the board to behave in a proper manner within.

Do you guys flame everyone who posts a link to an article without 'asking' for comments?  One would think it's presence in a forum kind of implies a request for comments, wouldnt one?

At any rate, discussing why you are using fallacies is just further detracting from a discussion of the topic, which is what you were seeking all along.
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