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Author Topic: Should a cartoon really cause so much violence and hate?  (Read 2037 times)
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depward
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« on: February 08, 2006, 08:03:17 AM »

I'm sure a majority of us have heard about the whole "cartoon" fiasco.  In case you haven't, here's an article about it.

This story has me emotionally tongue-tied.  On one hand, I think how a silly cartoon has incited this violence and hatred.  And it sickens me.  A country such as Denmark - a civil, essentially "non-powerful" or controlling, and peaceful country - can be targeted by hackers and can have their flags burned over a cartoon.  And these rioters - firing automatic rounds into pictures of Denmark's Prime Minister - have totaled nine deaths for rioting over a cartoon.

But then again, it's a cartoon that essentially insulted their religion and way of life, depicting their prophet in a bad light.  I could see how one can get angry over such an illustration.  But that angry?

This conflict really shows the great difference that the Western world has - tolerance.  And to think an Iranian newspaper is holding a contest for the best cartoon written about the Holocaust is just sickening.

The Dutch have already apologized.  They didn't mean to incite any sort of riot or anything of the sort.  Maybe they should have thought about it before printing the cartoon.  But does the Muslim world really have to get so upset over a cartoon?  Maybe being a citizen in the Western world blinds me and doesn't allow me to think about "if I were in their shoes", but to get so riled up over a cartoon, to me, is rediculous.

What does everyone else think?  I don't know, I find it a pretty interesting subject.
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gameoverman
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2006, 08:47:24 AM »

This is a complicated issue in my eyes:

1) ALOT of the most uh, vocal protesters are less than educated.  So reason and logic, ie "these cartoons were published in another country, what's it to you?", can't be expected to work.

2)Most of these people feel the rage that the downtrodden usually feel towards those that have so much more than them.  If I'm Joe Schmoe in Syria, yeah I'm probably gonna jump at any chance to vent out against the West(ie America), even via a proxy like the Europeans.  What else do I have to do with my time but join the crowd?

3)Their religion, like most people's religions, offers them something they otherwise would not have, at least in their eyes.  No one knows for sure if it's real, until you die and then you can't exactly come back and say if it's true or not can you, but they BELIEVE it's real.   So they hang on to it tightly, so tightly that they will be Uber defensive about it.  That's why the "they are just drawings, what the hell is your problem?" approach also won't work.

4)Leaders know this and will use this to stir the people up and get them to do what they want, score political points and what not.

5)This stuff goes on everywhere, even here.  Witness the rage, yes RAGE, people over here go into when fighting against Happy Holidays in favor of Merry Christmas.   The difference is that when you have NOTHING to lose, violence becomes just another option to choose from.

When you have alot to lose(possesions, home, luxuries, a steady job, peaceful, safe , unoccupied community, etc), random violence loses its charm.  Then you vent your rage in more polite ways and look in askance at those who would act without restraint.
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Daehawk
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2006, 02:25:05 PM »

Ill just keep quite this time on what I think of the aholes and thier excuse of a  religion.
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2006, 03:00:58 PM »

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The average person is a complete idiot.

And acts of stupidity like this only prove my statement.
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2006, 10:24:24 PM »

Ah, the opiate of the masses!

Anyway, this entire "crisis" was manufactured.

Quote
The conspirators used supremely inflammatory phony cartoons never published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands Posten to gin up a campaign of violence and intimidation against Denmark, the EU, and the West.

The instantaneous availability of Danish flags for burning in obscure outposts of the Muslim world suggests a great deal of advance planning.
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2006, 10:35:22 AM »

Quote from: "depward"

This conflict really shows the great difference that the Western world has - tolerance.


Tolerance? If you're serious about that, it'll include not to offend other religions by making fun of their prophet.

To muslims, it is bad to make drawing of their prophets or god, even a good beautiful drawing of their prophet is not allowed. These Danish drawings are even worse because they not only draw the prophet, but they also make fun of him.
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2006, 10:57:50 AM »

Quote from: "Destructor"
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The average person is a complete idiot.

And acts of stupidity like this only prove my statement.


 I could not agree more...

 There`s ALOT more fuss over this than there is over suicide bombers killing innocent people :shock: ...go figure.

 People suck :twisted: , well most of `em anyway :wink: .
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2006, 08:45:10 PM »

I have been pretty open minded about Muslims but this whole fiasco makes me wonder about it.

The poverty point makes sense to me though and there is the whole fact that the Muslim world feels like it is under attack from the West but seriously, Denmark?

Am I missing something about the Danes?
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lokiju
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2006, 09:40:34 PM »

Quote from: "Scoop20906"
I have been pretty open minded about Muslims but this whole fiasco makes me wonder about it.

The poverty point makes sense to me though and there is the whole fact that the Muslim world feels like it is under attack from the West but seriously, Denmark?

Am I missing something about the Danes?


They kicked Muslim ass in my Medieval Total War game.  Wonder if my 'savegame' somehow got distributed around the Middle East, thus inciting all this paranoia?
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2006, 09:48:56 PM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Ah, the opiate of the masses!

Anyway, this entire "crisis" was manufactured.

Quote
The conspirators used supremely inflammatory phony cartoons never published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands Posten to gin up a campaign of violence and intimidation against Denmark, the EU, and the West.

The instantaneous availability of Danish flags for burning in obscure outposts of the Muslim world suggests a great deal of advance planning.


This has been stated elsewhere in the news, and seems plausible to me.  

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a 3rd world war eventually, incited by more of these types of events.  Muslims vs Everyone else.  Time to roll out the Crusades again!

The sad thing is, the 95% of Muslims who just want peace are being dragged into this.
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2006, 09:54:53 PM »

Quote from: "depward"
This conflict really shows the great difference that the Western world has - tolerance.  And to think an Iranian newspaper is holding a contest for the best cartoon written about the Holocaust is just sickening.


I agree that the situation is horrible.  And while I'm not taking sides with extremist Muslims, our Western IN-tolerance is really what's causing friction within the Muslim community.  

They hate America, and all the allies we force into doing our bidding.  We have so many bases and such a large military presence throughout the world that we can be seen as nothing but bullish dictators IMHO.  

We have leaders assassinated because they don't further American goals.  We attack countries like Iraq (under false allegations) for oil and lining CEO pockets with blood money.

I can understand where the hatred is coming from.  I don't agree with the tactics, but I do see their side of things.
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2006, 10:16:22 PM »

I think it's the haves vs the have nots.

Tolerance or intolerance really have nothing to do with it, imo.  The rich and powerful want things to stay the way they are- so they stay rich and powerful.   The poor and weak want massive change, in ANY way they can get it, since they can't be any worse off.  

That's a scary prospect for those of us in the Western side of things.  Who knows how much worse off WE would be if things changed that radically?

The thing is, no matter how powerful the Western militaries are, the poor ALWAYS outnumber the rich by a large number.  If discontent spreads far enough, whole armies could change sides in favor of the people, who are after all their friends and relatives.

The fact that the West is in a race against others(China especially) for resources really adds drama to this.  We are not in a position to walk away and say "Screw those people, let'em rot.".   We NEED them.
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2006, 10:23:00 PM »

Quote from: "Victoria Raverna"
To muslims, it is bad to make drawing of their prophets or god, even a good beautiful drawing of their prophet is not allowed. These Danish drawings are even worse because they not only draw the prophet, but they also make fun of him.


The problem here is that MUSLIMS cannot make drawings of Mohammed.  Since the people who created the cartoons are not muslim, it doesn't matter.

Since they also believe people shouldnt drink alcohol, and that women need to wear veils, should we likewise follow their rules so we aren't offending them?  We do it when we are in their countries, but since THEY are in OUR countries, they need to be the ones showing respect for how we do things.
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2006, 11:28:54 PM »

Quote from: "Scoop20906"
The poverty point makes sense to me though and there is the whole fact that the Muslim world feels like it is under attack from the West but seriously, Denmark?

Am I missing something about the Danes?

There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.
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Victoria Raverna
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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2006, 07:30:20 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Victoria Raverna"
To muslims, it is bad to make drawing of their prophets or god, even a good beautiful drawing of their prophet is not allowed. These Danish drawings are even worse because they not only draw the prophet, but they also make fun of him.


The problem here is that MUSLIMS cannot make drawings of Mohammed.  Since the people who created the cartoons are not muslim, it doesn't matter.

Since they also believe people shouldnt drink alcohol, and that women need to wear veils, should we likewise follow their rules so we aren't offending them?  We do it when we are in their countries, but since THEY are in OUR countries, they need to be the ones showing respect for how we do things.


I think bible is full of bullshits. And since I'm not christian, is it okay for me to shit and pee on bible? And if I do that, the christians that are mad at me are just a bunch of intolerant morons?
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2006, 08:28:09 AM »

Quote from: "Victoria Raverna"
Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Victoria Raverna"
To muslims, it is bad to make drawing of their prophets or god, even a good beautiful drawing of their prophet is not allowed. These Danish drawings are even worse because they not only draw the prophet, but they also make fun of him.


The problem here is that MUSLIMS cannot make drawings of Mohammed.  Since the people who created the cartoons are not muslim, it doesn't matter.

Since they also believe people shouldnt drink alcohol, and that women need to wear veils, should we likewise follow their rules so we aren't offending them?  We do it when we are in their countries, but since THEY are in OUR countries, they need to be the ones showing respect for how we do things.


I think bible is full of bullshits. And since I'm not christian, is it okay for me to shit and pee on bible? And if I do that, the christians that are mad at me are just a bunch of intolerant morons?





I'm a pagan so it doesn't bother me a bit.Tasteless perhaps,just as the Danish cartoons but I don't think we're argueing about them being tasteful or not. :wink:
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2006, 08:33:14 AM »

Quote
I think bible is full of bullshits. And since I'm not christian, is it okay for me to shit and pee on bible? And if I do that, the christians that are mad at me are just a bunch of intolerant morons?


Meh.  I'm a Christian, but that is just a book.  You can rip it to shreds and it doesn't bother me in the least.  It doesn't change anything for me.  People get too bent out of shape over damned near nothing so quickly.  Honestly, I can't count the amount of cartoons that I've seen that slam one particular religion or another.  The fact that it is something to do with Muslims is what has everyone in an uproar.  People who are already in a frenzy just turned their attention to the path of least resistence.  Its all pretty sad when you think about it.  At the end of the day, people have been killed for a joke.  Pathetic.
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2006, 08:37:37 AM »

Quote from: "Victoria Raverna"
I think bible is full of bullshits. And since I'm not christian, is it okay for me to shit and pee on bible? And if I do that, the christians that are mad at me are just a bunch of intolerant morons?


1. yes, you have that right
2. Your example is also a straw man.  One's religious beliefs have nothing to do with other people's actions, and everything to do with how the person of faith handles themself.

Another point the cartoonists were making was regarding the fact that we are secular nations, not religious ones.  I hear now the protesting groups are starting to call for laws preventing drawings of Mohammed.  Yeah, that's gonna happen  :roll:

Sorry guys, but we don't pass laws protecting specific religions.  OR restricting them.  Our separation of church and state is meant to protect both religion and government from each other.

That's why you know peace was never a goal in Iraq.  If it were, one of the main goals would have been in setting up a secular government.  But people pushing for a Christian theocracy here would not, of course, be pushing for a secular government in another country.
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2006, 01:30:31 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Quote
I think bible is full of bullshits. And since I'm not christian, is it okay for me to shit and pee on bible? And if I do that, the christians that are mad at me are just a bunch of intolerant morons?


Meh.  I'm a Christian, but that is just a book.  You can rip it to shreds and it doesn't bother me in the least.  It doesn't change anything for me.  People get too bent out of shape over damned near nothing so quickly.  Honestly, I can't count the amount of cartoons that I've seen that slam one particular religion or another.  The fact that it is something to do with Muslims is what has everyone in an uproar.  People who are already in a frenzy just turned their attention to the path of least resistence.  Its all pretty sad when you think about it.  At the end of the day, people have been killed for a joke.  Pathetic.


First, if you shat and peed on the Bible in front of a Christian, I would hope they'd pray to God to forgive that person instead of attacking the embassy of the country you are from.

But that is beside the point here.  What's really going on, as stated above, is a violent uprising due to extremists posting fake pictures with accusations that the white man did it.  The original cartoon was run in September I believe.  It took them 6 months to get angry?  Nope, a couple of other countries recently reposted the cartoon, and conveniently, the extremists decided to use it to their advantage this time.

I don't blame the Muslim population for being mad, and getting involved in the mob mentality that even happens here in America.  But they are getting angry over false accusations.  They should be pissed at the extremists clerics, and kill all of them and their fold IMHO.
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2006, 04:08:54 PM »

I see it more as an issue of whether freedom of speech is culturally accepted.  In the developed world, it is one of the liberties that we enjoy on a daily basis.  In much of the developing world, it is not.  The exact reason why it was ok for that cartoon to appear in Denmark and other countries is the reason it is being protested.  While I understand the sensitivities surrounding blasphemous depictions of holy figures, I believe strongly that the only way that people in this world can every know freedom is through tolerance of freedom of speech.  As long as it is ok to stifle the voice of another, it is ok to stifle that person's beliefs.  I fully support the resistance on behalf of the Danish to apologize.  What we have is a clash of cultures, not necessarily an issue of religious sensitivity.  For the developed world to concede to those less tolerant that it is ok for them to live lives absent of one of our most precious freedoms and the hallmark of liberty is to admit ideological defeat.
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2006, 05:18:31 PM »

What's really irking me is how the US press won't even publish it.  Freedom of speech my ass, hiding behind "sensitivity" they won't put it out there.  Yet, so much press was quick to defend and publish pics of "Piss Christ".  So far, I've only heard of one paper in the US gutsy enough to publish the pics.  Kudos to that editor.
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2006, 05:26:08 PM »

Quote from: "Destructor"
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The average person is a complete idiot.

And acts of stupidity like this only prove my statement.


Here's more proof:
http://www.local6.com/news/6880241/detail.html
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2006, 07:10:07 PM »

Quote from: "Clay"
Quote from: "Destructor"
I've said it before and I'll say it again:

The average person is a complete idiot.

And acts of stupidity like this only prove my statement.


Here's more proof:
http://www.local6.com/news/6880241/detail.html


That freaking pancake is at $730!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  And there are spin-offs!  Jesus H. Christ.
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2006, 09:05:56 PM »

Quote from: "Victoria Raverna"
Quote from: "unbreakable"
Quote from: "Victoria Raverna"
To muslims, it is bad to make drawing of their prophets or god, even a good beautiful drawing of their prophet is not allowed. These Danish drawings are even worse because they not only draw the prophet, but they also make fun of him.


The problem here is that MUSLIMS cannot make drawings of Mohammed.  Since the people who created the cartoons are not muslim, it doesn't matter.

Since they also believe people shouldnt drink alcohol, and that women need to wear veils, should we likewise follow their rules so we aren't offending them?  We do it when we are in their countries, but since THEY are in OUR countries, they need to be the ones showing respect for how we do things.


I think bible is full of bullshits. And since I'm not christian, is it okay for me to shit and pee on bible? And if I do that, the christians that are mad at me are just a bunch of intolerant morons?


Why shouldn't you be able to desecrate a Bible? I'm a Christian, and while I'd think you're a blithering idiot, it wouldn't send me into a rage. Why should my beliefs dictate your behavior?

We have a right to free speech, and that includes the right to criticize and critique the beliefs of others, be they religious or secular.

Is it inappropriate to draw a political cartoon featuring the Virgin Mary or the Pope or Jesus as a critique of the altar boy scandal in Catholicism? Or are religions somehow supposedly be held immune from criticism?

But you know what? The content of the cartoon doesn't matter. The right to free speech supercedes the non-existant right to "not be offended." We have a RIGHT to say things that offend other people.

That's what the crowd rioting in the street hates -- they don't want us to be able to do, say or think anything that they don't this is proper. The attitude on display in these streets is the manifestation of everything that is evil about religious fundamentalism -- it is the greatest threat to human liberty in the history of the world.
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2006, 10:06:04 PM »

What about American flag burning within the United States.That would set a number of people off.
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2006, 10:10:41 PM »

Quote from: "dbt1949"
What about American flag burning within the United States.That would set a number of people off.


While I don't like our government, I would never burn the flag because of what it stands for.  It's a statement of freedom and goodness, so by burning it you are saying you disagree with the belief IMHO.  Too bad we've never had any leaders or a government that could hold a candle to the ideal.

Edit:  Unfortunately, to the masses, the flag represents each country's present governmental policies moreso than it's symbolism.
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2006, 10:39:02 PM »

Quote from: "dbt1949"
What about American flag burning within the United States.That would set a number of people off.


Yes, but it's still speech, and one has a fundamental right to burn the flag.
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2006, 12:08:00 AM »

While I would never burn a flag, I will defend to the death somebody's right to do it.
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2006, 01:06:39 AM »

The only thing I can be thankful for is that it's the Dutch this time.  I just can't imagine how bad these were published in a US paper.  Though I have to imagine there have been cartoons as inflammatory.  Maybe Unbreakable is right and the time was right?

I still find it rather strange that these cartoons are causing such contriversy, and yet whenever they are reported on during the news they are blurred like some Penthouse spread and the papers merely describe it.  I understand why but I still find it kinda strange.
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2006, 01:20:16 AM »

One thing I found amusing- Muslims were REPRINTING the cartoons for their propaganda campaign.

While the Dutch weren't violating any of their own religious beliefs, those reprinting the 'offenses' WERE, since it was THEIR religion barring these images.

Oh, the ironing.  (props to whoever said that recently, I forget who to credit).
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2006, 03:00:52 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
While I would never burn a flag, I will defend to the death somebody's right to do it.


You and I are on the same page here.  I got tore up pretty badly for that flag, and while it would burn me up inside, that person burning the flag is allowed to express their 'voice'.
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