R&P Decision

[Cota]

This thread is great.  It's like Religion & Politics without the religion & politics!  

Ha.

We can't even be civil talking about how we'd be civil talking about religion and politics.

I don't know why anyone thinks they are owed anything here. I wouldn't even be comfortable asking for the things that were afforded us PC gamers already, let alone expect more. Wow.

-Cota

[UsulofDoom]

I feel such a loss with the way our site was ripped from our lives. I miss every thing about the Gone Gold forums. I looked forward daily to the P&R debates. PC by tital ,Value and going gold forum were daily views for me.

It is truly up to the owner of  console gold weather he wants the Gone Gold community to be a part of his site or not.  I know I used many a link on The gone gold site to purchase new software and hardware.

I just wish he would have the hart to put an announcement in the off-topic forum to point the loss sheep to a new home when it is found.

[Jeff]

[SuperHiro]

Sometimes reading through the R&P forum was like eating shit trying to find the tasty bits of corn.

[Laner]

No more a generalization than what you and others have said or implied, when comments are made that adding R & P would basically lead to the end of CG, or that somehow the R & P posters at GG were the "sewer" type posters before the split into an R & P forum there.

Wait a minute now, come on down off that cross.  While I can't speak for whiteboyskim (though I'll bet he would concur), when I agreed with his "sewer" comment, I meant the discussions and their tendency to get ugly with a quickness - not the people involved.

---

Bottom line to all this, which has been stated already ad nauseum:  This is not Gone Gold.  It will never be Gone Gold.  So don't try to make it Gone Gold.

[rrmorton]

As I consider what is and isn't fair game in Off Topic, the hypothetical reaction to Grievous Angel's hypothetical thread about Fox News and the FCC is nagging at me.

AgtFox wrote:

From my perspective as a mod, reporting the news is fair game (such as the Fox FCC fine or whatever), but if the continuing discussion in that thread delves into the political landscape of things, it will be closed.

I can totally understand locking the thread at the first sign of bickery unpleasantness, but if tempers aren't flaring, would there be a preemptive lockdown? Hard to know where the line gets drawn until I see things in action I guess.

[khomotso]

It seems really tactless to me, but on the range of lesser evils, this space seems the least among them:  for people looking elsewhere for their conversation fix, where would they be going?

Many thanks to CG for its warm hospitality and thoughtful consideration.

[Enough]

Sometimes reading through the R&P forum was like eating shit trying to find the tasty bits of corn.

I can clearly see now how the no-RP rule will ensure all abrasive and hurtful posts are avoided.

[Cota]

Sometimes reading through the R&P forum was like eating shit trying to find the tasty bits of corn.

There goes lunch!

-Cota

[Orinoco Womble]

I'm pretty shocked by how many people gladly accept being told not to discuss politics or religion. But then again, nobody votes or goes to church so I don't know why I'd find it surprising.

Do you play your gameboy in church or when you go to vote? I don't - may be that allows me to seperate my gaming from my politics/religion.

I haven't gladly accepted being told not to discuss politics and religion - I've accepted that I can't do it in this forum. When a GG R&P forum forms somewhere (as I'm sure it will), I'll post in both. If it doesn't form then I'll go elsewhere.

I don't think KD owes me anything (as some people seem to think he does). I'll take what I'm offered with sincere thanks, like the refugee I am.

Accept the decision and move on with your life. Anything else is churlish in my opinion...

[Zagreus]

as a long-time GG lurker I never visited the R&P forum. I was pleased when it was segregated from other discussion and I don't think the existance of an R&P section had any negative impact on the rest of the site.

[Blackadar]

I can't say I'm pleased with this decision.  It's not so much that there's not going to be a R&P forum but that broad topics are restricted as a policy.  It indicates to me that CG is not going to be home for very long for some of us.  If the policy is going to be that expressly restrictive, I don't see a whole lot of use hanging around because censorship tends to beget more censorship.  While it's perfectly within CGs rights to do so, it's not necessarily what I want to be a part of.

[Grifman]

No need for this to turn surly. We're capable of mature disagreement. (hinthint) People have unanimously granted that they respect the decision. We're just taking the opportunity to express our feelings on the issue.

I'm pretty shocked by how many people gladly accept being told not to discuss politics or religion. But then again, nobody votes or goes to church so I don't know why I'd find it surprising.

It's really not a matter of gladly accepting or not.  This is their forum, not mine.  They have a right to say what is proper content and what isn't.  If they were trying to restrict my speech in a public venue, I'd be all over that.  But a private internet BB?  Why should I be outraged, or not accepting?

Grifman

[PaulBot]

Whether or not R&P has it's own section is no big deal to me. I'm sure there will be plenty of it in the Off Topic area, and I have no problem with that.

Actually, no.  It will be locked on sight.  That's why people like jblank are upset.

I get it. R&P isn't allowed on CG. Hmmm..... oh well.... back to gaming!

[Fireball1244]

I'm a big fan of my Xbox and PS2 (while my Gamecube is very dusty and sorta sucky.) Lord knows, I love console games. But this decision makes me feel like console gaming is still the domain of kids, not adults.

Ouch.  That's quite the inaccurate (and maybe even inappropriate) generalization you've made.

No more a generalization than what you and others have said or implied, when comments are made that adding R & P would basically lead to the end of CG, or that somehow the R & P posters at GG were the "sewer" type posters before the split into an R & P forum there. Mature people can talk about any topic, without throwing Molotav cocktails. For the most part, thats what we had there at GG.

That is absolutely not what whiteboyskim was saying. He did not call posters who posted in R&P sewer type posters. And while I can't specifically claim any sort of clairvoyance, I know for a fact that he doesn't think that either, as I've known him for 20 years. He's about as good as people come, and to my knowledge would never say what you're trying to make his words say.

I know this has been addressed already, but I felt the need to speak up for Mr. Skim.

[rrmorton]

I'm pretty shocked by how many people gladly accept being told not to discuss politics or religion. But then again, nobody votes or goes to church so I don't know why I'd find it surprising.

Do you play your gameboy in church or when you go to vote? I don't - may be that allows me to seperate my gaming from my politics/religion.

I don't own a gameboy. Too kiddy.  :wink:

(Actually, I had one but it got stolen in a hotel in Rome which made me want to unleash Total War on their housekeeping staff.)

I haven't gladly accepted being told not to discuss politics and religion - I've accepted that I can't do it in this forum. When a GG R&P forum forms somewhere (as I'm sure it will), I'll post in both. If it doesn't form then I'll go elsewhere.

Me too, I guess. But I've been a one-forum man for close to five years now and the thought of dividing my time between two or more different forums is unappealing, though it may have to happen. Forums can be brutal timesinks so I'm loathe to participate in more than one. That's why I'd prefer one gaming-centric forum where I could discuss everything under the sun. I didn't know how good we had it over at GG (even with the separate R&P forum) until it was gone.

I don't think KD owes me anything (as some people seem to think he does). I'll take what I'm offered with sincere thanks, like the refugee I am.

If you're implying I'm one of the "some people", I already expressed my gratitude to Ron and staff in one of the other threads, likening these new digs, with this robust software and hyperactive support staff, to the Four Seasons resort. Obviously he doesn't owe me anything.

The only reason I've (respectfully) expressed my opinion on the subject of R&P was because Ron has actively invited input and comments on the matter from the GG immigrants.

Accept the decision and move on with your life. Anything else is churlish in my opinion...

God, is that irritating. As if anything I've said should indicate A) an unwillingness to accept the decision or B) the inability to move on with my life. This announcement was made, what, four or five hours ago? Yeah, boy, I'm really just stuck in a rut over here.

And wasn't there a laughy face at the end of my post you quoted? Churlish my hind-quarters.

[godhugh]

There was the great Mod Uprising which resulted, I feel, in the complete joke that was the GG moderation upon the forum's demise last week

Excuse me?   :cry:

Wow, and I thought Rich saying the site had "gone to hell" was a slap in the face to those of us who volunteered...

[RunningMn9]

There was the great Mod Uprising which resulted, I feel, in the complete joke that was the GG moderation upon the forum's demise last week

Excuse me?   :cry:

Wow, and I thought Rich saying the site had "gone to hell" was a slap in the face to those of us who volunteered...

I'm not even a GoneGold mod and I found that post from "Mr. Skim" annoyingly insulting.

And I had all sorts of warm fuzzy feelings towards the CG staff too.

[Exodor]

There was the great Mod Uprising which resulted, I feel, in the complete joke that was the GG moderation upon the forum's demise last week

Excuse me?   :cry:

Wow, and I thought Rich saying the site had "gone to hell" was a slap in the face to those of us who volunteered...

I'm not even a GoneGold mod and I found that post from "Mr. Skim" annoyingly insulting.

And I had all sorts of warm fuzzy feelings towards the CG staff too.

Yeah, that welcome mat lasted what, a whole three days?

As noted in another post, the membership of this forum has more then tripled over the past few days.  You'd think they'd be thankful for the increased traffic...   :roll:

[Mookee]

I don't think KD owes me anything (as some people seem to think he does). I'll take what I'm offered with sincere thanks, like the refugee I am.

The only reason I've (respectfully) expressed my opinion on the subject of R&P was because Ron has actively invited input and comments on the matter from the GG immigrants..

That seems to be getting lost in all this.  I think it's implied at this point that just about EVERYONE appreciates the warm welcome.  CG has been great.

However, the director of the site specifically asked this:

Things I want to ask:

2.) What do you want resserected out of Gone Gold?  What worked?  What didn't?

People are just offering their input and some people liked R&P.  What's wrong with people voicing their opinion when it was asked for by the person who runs this site?  Of course he doesn't owe anything to GG'ers, a lot of pro-R&Per's just offered their opinion when it was specifically asked for...

[Laner]

There was the great Mod Uprising which resulted, I feel, in the complete joke that was the GG moderation upon the forum's demise last week

Excuse me?   :cry:

Wow, and I thought Rich saying the site had "gone to hell" was a slap in the face to those of us who volunteered...

I'm not even a GoneGold mod and I found that post from "Mr. Skim" annoyingly insulting.

And I had all sorts of warm fuzzy feelings towards the CG staff too.

Yeah, that welcome mat lasted what, a whole three days?

As noted in another post, the membership of this forum has more then tripled over the past few days.  You'd think they'd be thankful for the increased traffic...   :roll:

I'm sure they are.  But that doesn't mean they have to be subject to the whinging of a few who expect this to be a duplicate of GG.  They took the idea of R&P under consideration, and turned it down.  I fail to see how continuing to discuss the issue any further is going to help.

[Smoove_B]

More important that having a forum to discuss R&P is having people willing and able  to moderate it.

It's not as simple as "opening up a new forum" here or anywhere else. As we all know, some people are rather passionate about their beliefs. And when people start pontificating over "which person has a better invisible person" or "why candidate X is a sneak", things can get ugly.

My only concern is that someone will interpret a posting / comment as religious or political in nature and it will result in all kinds of bans, based on this board's policy (which is fine - your house, your rules).

For example, I was hesitant to comment on a thread on Malthus - not because I think it's political or religious - but maybe someone does. Am I crossing the line by talking about Malthus or Quinn?

If I can talk about Quinn, can Running Man talk about his passion for L. Ron Hubbard? There are some fuzzy lines.

The one thing I liked about GG (and this might be what morton was making reference to) is that people could speak their mind on just about any topic.

It rounded us all out has human beings - not just some random poster that likes Deus Ex or Daggefall. I know more about some of the people from Gone Gold than I do about my own neighbors.

All because of the well rounded nature of the community forum.

That being said:

(1) I respect your decisions and your effort to accomodate
(2) I will do my best not to cross any lines, with respect to religion or politics.

[godhugh]

There was the great Mod Uprising which resulted, I feel, in the complete joke that was the GG moderation upon the forum's demise last week

Excuse me?   :cry:

Wow, and I thought Rich saying the site had "gone to hell" was a slap in the face to those of us who volunteered...

I'm not even a GoneGold mod and I found that post from "Mr. Skim" annoyingly insulting.

And I had all sorts of warm fuzzy feelings towards the CG staff too.

Yeah, that welcome mat lasted what, a whole three days?

As noted in another post, the membership of this forum has more then tripled over the past few days.  You'd think they'd be thankful for the increased traffic...   :roll:

I'm sure they are.  But that doesn't mean they have to be subject to the whinging of a few who expect this to be a duplicate of GG.  They took the idea of R&P under consideration, and turned it down.  I fail to see how continuing to discuss the issue any further is going to help.

I've moved on to the anger stage now...

What I posted, and what they responded too, has nothing to do with R&P or "whining". It has to do with the fact that CG staff is now insulting the GG mods, which is totally classless.

[Grifman]

There was the great Mod Uprising which resulted, I feel, in the complete joke that was the GG moderation upon the forum's demise last week

Excuse me?   :cry:

Wow, and I thought Rich saying the site had "gone to hell" was a slap in the face to those of us who volunteered...

I'm not even a GoneGold mod and I found that post from "Mr. Skim" annoyingly insulting.

And I had all sorts of warm fuzzy feelings towards the CG staff too.

Yeah, that welcome mat lasted what, a whole three days?

As noted in another post, the membership of this forum has more then tripled over the past few days.  You'd think they'd be thankful for the increased traffic...   :roll:

I'm sure they are.  But that doesn't mean they have to be subject to the whinging of a few who expect this to be a duplicate of GG.  They took the idea of R&P under consideration, and turned it down.  I fail to see how continuing to discuss the issue any further is going to help.

I've moved on to the anger stage now...

What I posted, and what they responded too, has nothing to do with R&P or "whining". It has to do with the fact that CG staff is now insulting the GG mods, which is totally classless.

Yes, that was a pretty cheap shot.  I thought ya'll did a great job given the diversity of people and opinions.  I mean, MSDuncan and EduardoX?  Or RM9 and myself?  The chasms were great, but the moderation I saw often helped us bridge those chasms in good spirits.

Grifman

[whiteboyskim]

There was the great Mod Uprising which resulted, I feel, in the complete joke that was the GG moderation upon the forum's demise last week

Excuse me?   :cry:

Wow, and I thought Rich saying the site had "gone to hell" was a slap in the face to those of us who volunteered...

I'm not even a GoneGold mod and I found that post from "Mr. Skim" annoyingly insulting.

And I had all sorts of warm fuzzy feelings towards the CG staff too.

Yeah, that welcome mat lasted what, a whole three days?

As noted in another post, the membership of this forum has more then tripled over the past few days.  You'd think they'd be thankful for the increased traffic...   :roll:

I'm sure they are.  But that doesn't mean they have to be subject to the whinging of a few who expect this to be a duplicate of GG.  They took the idea of R&P under consideration, and turned it down.  I fail to see how continuing to discuss the issue any further is going to help.

I've moved on to the anger stage now...

What I posted, and what they responded too, has nothing to do with R&P or "whining". It has to do with the fact that CG staff is now insulting the GG mods, which is totally classless.

Correction - and if you would re-read my post that is quoted above you would know this - it is I that was insulting the mod staff at Gone Gold. If you have a beef godhugh, I'm more than happy to take it up with you via e-mail. But as I noted and that has been quoted, that was how I personally felt and still do about a specific aspect of the site I called home for two years prior to registering in 2001.

[godhugh]

There was the great Mod Uprising which resulted, I feel, in the complete joke that was the GG moderation upon the forum's demise last week

Excuse me?   :cry:

Wow, and I thought Rich saying the site had "gone to hell" was a slap in the face to those of us who volunteered...

I'm not even a GoneGold mod and I found that post from "Mr. Skim" annoyingly insulting.

And I had all sorts of warm fuzzy feelings towards the CG staff too.

Yeah, that welcome mat lasted what, a whole three days?

As noted in another post, the membership of this forum has more then tripled over the past few days.  You'd think they'd be thankful for the increased traffic...   :roll:

I'm sure they are.  But that doesn't mean they have to be subject to the whinging of a few who expect this to be a duplicate of GG.  They took the idea of R&P under consideration, and turned it down.  I fail to see how continuing to discuss the issue any further is going to help.

I've moved on to the anger stage now...

What I posted, and what they responded too, has nothing to do with R&P or "whining". It has to do with the fact that CG staff is now insulting the GG mods, which is totally classless.

Correction - and if you would re-read my post that is quoted above you would know this - it is I that was insulting the mod staff at Gone Gold. If you have a beef godhugh, I'm more than happy to take it up with you via e-mail. But as I noted and that has been quoted, that was how I personally felt and still do about a specific aspect of the site I called home for two years prior to registering in 2001.

Yes, well, as I learned in the more then 2 years I was a moderator at GG when you make a post and "Console Gold Staff" is sitting under your name, you're representing Console Gold whether you want to or not.

But hey, if that's how you feel, then that's how you feel. I know not everyone agreed with the way GG was moderated (Derek Smart for one), but I like to think we helped the community in some small way.

Anyway, I just think it's pretty sad that you have to take cheap shots like that. Seems pretty pointless to me.

[Knightshade Dragon]

It has to do with the fact that CG staff is now insulting the GG mods, which is totally classless.

Ok stop.  Just stop right there.  Mitch made a comment and prefaced it that this was his own commentary.  While I recognize that he is staff, he did make this clear that he he didn't represent the staff in this.  Don't throw that blanket on all of us.

[Orinoco Womble]

If you're implying I'm one of the "some people", I already expressed my gratitude to Ron and staff in one of the other threads, likening these new digs, with this robust software and hyperactive support staff, to the Four Seasons resort. Obviously he doesn't owe me anything.

The only reason I've (respectfully) expressed my opinion on the subject of R&P was because Ron has actively invited input and comments on the matter from the GG immigrants.

Accept the decision and move on with your life. Anything else is churlish in my opinion...

God, is that irritating. As if anything I've said should indicate A) an unwillingness to accept the decision or B) the inability to move on with my life. This announcement was made, what, four or five hours ago? Yeah, boy, I'm really just stuck in a rut over here.

And wasn't there a laughy face at the end of my post you quoted? Churlish my hind-quarters.

Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you were - it was aimed at other people here. I can understand people making a pitch for what they want but if KD says "no", then I feel we should all accept it and move on.

However, we all have different speeds for that and the GG community almost certainly meant more to you then me (I was mostly a lurker). I apologize if my message came across as mean - it wasn't intended that way.

I've moved a lot over the years (including changing continents) and I've found that I make new friends everywhere I go and keep a lot of the old ones. I see this as another move...  :wink:


Yes I saw the smily face on your note - I forgot the one on mine. Sorry again  

[Knightshade Dragon]

Ok here's the situation. I want to re-clarify our stance. Nobody is censoring anyone here.  A question like "Hey did you vote today?" is fine.  Something like "Did you see that piece on global warming?" is fine.  Something like "Hey, I think Kerry is a baby killing psycho, and only a cock-swilling psycho would vote for him!" is not fine.  Each thread will be evaluated on an individual basis but we are not going to be dedicating a forum to it.  We are not going to be encouraging political discussion here because, as I've explained before, it doesn't fit what we do here.  We are a gaming site.  GONE GOLD was a gaming site.   You wanna talk about the latest debate?  Do so with a bit of caution in the off topic forum and label it CLEARLY with [P] Debate in Tempe.  The second I think we have gotten into some assinine immature non-productive bullshitery I'll lock the thread.

[tripwire]

"Hey, I think Kerry is a baby killing psycho, and only a cock-swilling psycho would vote for him!"

 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Thanks to you, I'll be wiping coffee off my screen for awhile!

[Peacedog]

There was the great Mod Uprising which resulted, I feel, in the complete joke that was the GG moderation upon the forum's demise last week,

Tell that to the National Association of Moderators and Administrators.  I've got two first team all NAMA selections (01, 02), and I'm a shooin this year I'm told (everyone will remember that awful injury I suffered in 03 that limited my performance, and thus I didn't make it).  Plus, I was MVP in 02.  

Leon is a hall of famer, baby.
   
 

[stiffler]

Leon is a hall of famer, baby.
 

"No offense, Buck, but if that is your good side you should have stuck to radio."

I never get sick of those commercials!

True.

[RunningMn9]

It has to do with the fact that CG staff is now insulting the GG mods, which is totally classless.

Ok stop.  Just stop right there.  Mitch made a comment and prefaced it that this was his own commentary.  While I recognize that he is staff, he did make this clear that he he didn't represent the staff in this.  Don't throw that blanket on all of us.

I think I've been very respectful of the CG staff, and very appreciative of what they've done to accomodate the hoardes.

So don't take this the wrong way.

I understand that wbs isn't speaking for you or CG - that's clear.  I have remarkable reading comprehension skills (despite what you hear ).

But his post was a seriously unwarranted cheap shot.  I tried to be PC yesterday in describing why this community isn't for me.  The people gravitating here are largely (but certainly not solely) the group that acting like complete ******** when the R&P forum split on GG.  That's not any community that I want to be a part of anymore.

WBS sealed the deal with that post (well, obviously my egress is not immediate ).

I say all that independently of how appreciative I am for the extent to which the CG staff has tried to accomodate.  It's more than I would have done.

[Knightshade Dragon]

But his post was a seriously unwarranted cheap shot. I tried to be PC yesterday in describing why this community isn't for me. The people gravitating here are largely (but certainly not solely) the group that acting like complete ******** when the R&P forum split on GG. That's not any community that I want to be a part of anymore.

Want to hear the most hilarious part?  I have no idea what you are talking about.  I didn't know that there was a big rift until long after it had happened.  All this mass gravitation towards here is largely imagined...

Its not that I'm out of touch, its just that our growth numbers don't show some sort of spike like you describe.

[rrmorton]

Orinoco Womble: thanks for that clarification and no hard feelings. And yeah, I had 14,000+ posts at Gone Gold so forgive me if I need multiple pages in a few of these transitional threads to get my bearings.

Ok here's the situation. I want to re-clarify our stance. Nobody is censoring anyone here.  A question like "Hey did you vote today?" is fine.  Something like "Did you see that piece on global warming?" is fine.  Something like "Hey, I think Kerry is a baby killing psycho, and only a cock-swilling psycho would vote for him!" is not fine.  Each thread will be evaluated on an individual basis but we are not going to be dedicating a forum to it.  We are not going to be encouraging political discussion here because, as I've explained before, it doesn't fit what we do here.  We are a gaming site.  GONE GOLD was a gaming site.   You wanna talk about the latest debate?  Do so with a bit of caution in the off topic forum and label it CLEARLY with [P] Debate in Tempe.  The second I think we have gotten into some assinine immature non-productive bullshitery I'll lock the thread.

Okay, now we're getting somewhere!

That sounds ideal! I was under the impression that we wouldn't even be able to discuss current events in Off Topic such as the presidential debates or the upcoming election.

That changes everything! Screw the special R&P forum. All I want is to be able to read or post the occasional news story or noteworthy current event. I far prefer to have those topics mixed in with the movie, DVD, music, pictures, etc threads.

Unless I'm missing something, this clarification changes everything. Thanks, Ron!

[Zerthimon]

doh, nevermind. Looks like I missed the good news before posting

[Knightshade Dragon]

Zerth...please don't just repeat your post...please READ the clarification THEN post.  

BTW, I remember you.  (and I get the reference fellow RPG'er)

[khomotso]

I confess to some puzzlement.  No, I don't mean that in a snarky way, I just mean to say that the clarification still leaves me a little confused.

AgtFox:  From my perspective as a mod, reporting the news is fair game (such as the Fox FCC fine or whatever), but if the continuing discussion in that thread delves into the political landscape of things, it will be closed.

I noted in another thread (I don't remember which one) where Ralph Wiggum asked a few questions that I would allow news of a politician dying (for instance), but that we talk more about the person than their political past or what they mean from a political point of view.

KD: Ok here's the situation. I want to re-clarify our stance. Nobody is censoring anyone here. A question like "Hey did you vote today?" is fine ... You wanna talk about the latest debate? Do so with a bit of caution in the off topic forum and label it CLEARLY with [P] Debate in Tempe. The second I think we have gotten into some assinine immature non-productive bullshitery I'll lock the thread.

Does this represent a shift in stance (from "Don't be political" to "Don't be non-productive")?  Or a difference of opinion between AgtFox and yourself?

I understand you're trying to be reasonable and accommodating, Ron, but this all seems fairly murky - the sort of murkiness in mod policy which can shoot itself in the foot.  The "political landscape" is not tolerated ... unless you label it clearly and be careful not to be asinine?  

Coupling a strong readiness to act decisively with some rather foggy criteria (along the lines of "Don't go overboard") sounds to me like a recipe for trouble.

[Knightshade Dragon]

Well...I have to admit, we are sailing into VERY uncharted water here.  Loren is dead on with my previous stance.  We locked and shot dead on sight any political threads of any sort.  That said, I recognize the needs to discuss current events and given the landscape those can turn political.  Give us some time on this...I wouldn't call it a change in policy as my decision hasn't changed (still no R&P forum, if you are looking for that, you are in the wrong forum) but I imagine we'll have a bit more tolerance than before...again, give us some time.

[Zerthimon]

Zerth...please don't just repeat your post...please READ the clarification THEN post.  

BTW, I remember you.  (and I get the reference fellow RPG'er)

doh, I missed your thread sorry. Ok that sounds MUCH better Ignore my rantings then