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Author Topic: Random Fighting Discussion  (Read 6919 times)
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Crux
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« on: December 23, 2004, 02:17:13 PM »

Just so we don't de-rail Drazz's thread.

Quote from: "vagabond"
There are 3 kinds of fights, one the shoolyard kind where at the first sign of any real harm the fight gets broken up and both sides know this. Two, one in which real harm must take place in order for the fight to end. Third, a fight for your life. The abilities and skills needed for these fights are not the same. That is one problem I have with formal martial arts is it treats them all the same.


See but you're wrong. Because as far as the fighters are concerned, how do you know which one it is going to be before you start? Kids have been killed in schoolyard fights (albiet rarely), just like sometimes grown men shove a few times and walk away. You threat them all the same because you never know for sure which it is going to be until it is over. Of course, how it turns out depends partly on what you do, which is why you a) walk away if at all possible, and b) if there is a fight you end it fast and end it hard so it can't turn into #3.

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I have been attacked by two people at once with knives. There is nothing you can tell me about actually fighting that I don't already know.


Didn't realize a single experience made you all-knowing about fighting. That attitude will get you trouble fast.

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I have never had a fight take longer than a minute, usually 15 seconds and it is over. I rarely have been scratched in all these engagements.


If a fight is going on longer than a minute, something is seriously wrong. It is technically possible if you've got two guys who are tough, know what they are doing and are fighting til one of them doesn't get up. But short of that, most fights are over very quickly. My point was, which perhaps I didn't make too clearly, two of those fights I had were against the same guy who had done his share of fighting before, and outside of training, I'd never fought for real. I walked away without a scratch.

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I am not a big guy and have never been in a fight with anybody smaller than I. Matter of fact, my worst nightmare is not a huge guy coming after me, it is somebody just a little bigger, a little faster, a little stronger.


Then you're smart. Huge guys have lots of vulnerabilities. It is the person a lot faster than you that you have to worry about most, provided he isn't a LOT weaker than you.

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I have ended most fights of the first or second type by smashing the persons lips. Young men are very concerned by their looks and knowing they are going to look like they got pounded in the face for a month makes them want to stop fighting really fast. However, I was always making an effort to do as little damage as possible to end the situation. Hitting somebody in the solar plexus could kill them.


It is extremely difficult to kill someone by hitting them in the solar plexus. If you catch the chest over the heart you can throw the heart out of rhythm, but the solar plexus is below that. If you hit them so hard that you crack their sternum then it is possible, but it's pretty freaking hard to break a sternum with a punch. I've been kicked in the solar plexus before pretty hard in sparring, and I've kicked people there in sparring too. Still alive to talk about biggrin

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Partly why I talked about martial arts is because people are deluded into thinking they work like they do in the movies. A grown man punches another in the mouth and it explodes and your lips come apart. There isn't another punch after that. They don't punch each other ten times and then have a little scratch on their face after.


Ok, but very shortly after starting to learn martial arts people realize it is nothing like the movies. So are martial arts useless because of the popular misconception or because of your misconception? Do you think people who learn martial arts believe it is like the movies? I don't know how many movies you actually watch, but 99% of fight scenes in most movies are unrealistic, and that isn't limited to martial arts. Most boxing scenes in movies, street fight scenes in movies... in the movies people get right up after hits that would end a fight in real life. That doesn't mean that boxing is useless, or that street fighting is useless. It just means movies are unrealistic.

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Bruce Lee was 130 pounds soaking wet. Was he good at martial arts? Sure he was. Could he take on two guys twice his size at once in a real fight? Very doubtful and certainly not ten or a hundred at once. Anybody can be overpowered, even by those with no fighting skills at all.


So you apparantly took on two guys with knives, lived to talk about it, and you're saying that someone who devoted his whole life to training for fighting couldn't beat two unarmed guys bigger than him? Is this the point where we realize you're talking out of your ass?

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You can be trained for war but that is not the same as fighting when the guy in your foxhole's head comes apart. Only 30 percent of men in war even fire their weapons at all. They were all highly trained and screened beforehand. It is the difference between having veterans and green troops. This is something you cannot duplicate in martial arts nor can you know how you will respond beforehand.


Except it all comes down to the extent of training doesn't it. Some people are naturally wired for fighting, be it fisticuffs, guns, swords.. whatever. They take to it naturally, and so long as they have the physical abilities to match their will they excel at it. But if you're going to tell me that practicing fighting makes you useless then again you're talking out of your ass.

Because you seem to forget what martial arts are. It is structured fighting, evolved over hundreds of years originated by people who were fighting for their lives. It is people who took street fighting in some form, threw out the crap and turned it into a systematic, tested way of fighting. Sure a lot of the bullshit martial arts schools out there these days are a far cry from that. But what it comes down to is technique and training.

If you plucked some random guy on the street who had never played tennis before in his life, I would bet my life that Roger Federer would beat him in a match. Heck, I would bet my life that *I* could beat him in a match. Why? Because I've learned the technique of tennis and played it practically my entire life. I've trained at it. When a ball comes over the net I know what to do.

Fighting is little different, it just takes more will. Given equal physical ability, someone who is taught how to fight with proven techniques and trains will be better than someone who teaches themselves. Now again experience counts for a lot, but the whole point of any kind of contact sparring is to bridge the gap between training and real fighting. I've been kicked in the chest, punched in the face, kicked in the balls... all in sparring. I've been hit harder and more often in sparring than in any real fight I've been in. Why? To prepare you for the real thing. That's what it is all about.

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I could know for certain a person was good at martial arts prior to fighting and it wouldn't affect how I treated the fight one iota. It's irrelevant.


Then you're an idiot. If I know for certain I'm fighting a boxer vs a tae kwon do guy, vs a grappling guy then it changes things a lot. If you are so arrogant you think you can 100% hit someone or do whatever you want to them no matter what they know, then good luck with your fighting because it'll probably get you killed some day.[/quote]
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dbt1949
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2004, 02:36:42 PM »

I've always found the best kind of fighting is to run away.Preferably where I can find some more ammo or another fully armed gun.
I've only been in a couple of hand to hand fights and then it was using rifles and bayonets,so I'm a long ways from an expert on hand to hand fighting.
I still think running away is best if you can. :wink:
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Ye Olde Farte
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2004, 02:58:32 PM »

See but you're wrong. Because as far as the fighters are concerned, how do you know which one it is going to be before you start? Kids have been killed in schoolyard fights (albiet rarely), just like sometimes grown men shove a few times and walk away. You threat them all the same because you never know for sure which it is going to be until it is over. Of course, how it turns out depends partly on what you do, which is why you a) walk away if at all possible, and b) if there is a fight you end it fast and end it hard so it can't turn into #3. <<<<

This is psychotic, if you treated them all the same everybody would be dead. If I am fighting for my life I kill you in 2 seconds, end of story, no time to talk about it or think about it later. I can tell the difference, before hand.
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vagabond
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2004, 03:01:36 PM »

Then you're an idiot. If I know for certain I'm fighting a boxer vs a tae kwon do guy, vs a grappling guy then it changes things a lot. If you are so arrogant you think you can 100% hit someone or do whatever you want to them no matter what they know, then good luck with your fighting because it'll probably get you killed some day.[/quote]<<<<<

You are the one that thinks his skills are so good it will work 100 percent. I said it was irrelevant to be nice. In actuality I would worry less about somebody with martial arts training because they are far more likely to be overconfident. You are and in my opinion you have used far too much force in previous engagements. This is what martial arts got you. I don't even have to see you and I know for a fact I could beat you just because of your attitude. You are not discussing, you are rambling about nothing.
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vagabond
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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2004, 03:13:50 PM »

If you plucked some random guy on the street who had never played tennis before in his life, I would bet my life that Roger Federer would beat him in a match. Heck, I would bet my life that *I* could beat him in a match. Why? Because I've learned the technique of tennis and played it practically my entire life. I've trained at it. When a ball comes over the net I know what to do. <<<<<

You are hilarious. If I am fighting for my life and I gouge your eyes out of your head nobody is going to mind. If however, after the tennis match I jump the net and do it, the white shirts would come and get me. Your analogy is absurd. You have trained to fight but you don't know anything about fighing. It's like somebody reading every book they can find on how to play the guitar but never actually picked a guitar up. Then act like they are an expert. You sorely need to read Sun Tzu's art of war for a start and you need to take a chill.
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warning
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2004, 03:15:52 PM »

Quote from: "vagabond"
You are a nutbag.

You are on very thin ice vagabond.  You have been warned before about trolling and making personal attacks.
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Booner
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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2004, 03:17:57 PM »

There's only one way to settle this.....
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vagabond
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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2004, 03:21:57 PM »

Quote from: "warning"
Quote from: "vagabond"
You are a nutbag.

You are on very thin ice vagabond.  You have been warned before about trolling and making personal attacks.


Give me a break I wasn't even done editing yet. I have had more than a few talks with Ron about you moderators and your overly itchy trigger fingers too. It is going to get you unmoderating really fast. That was borderline at worst before I edited.
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2004, 03:23:08 PM »

Vagabond - learn how to use that "quote" button just below the subject line... those <<<< at the end of the OP's text aren't noticeable enough - it makes it look like the first paragraph of each of your posts is your own.
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Clanwolfer
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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2004, 03:27:36 PM »

Quote from: "Booner"
There's only one way to settle this.....


A race.... around the world.  Go!
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vagabond
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« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2004, 03:32:55 PM »

Quote from: "Laner"
Vagabond - learn how to use that "quote" button just below the subject line... those <<<< at the end of the OP's text aren't noticeable enough - it makes it look like the first paragraph of each of your posts is your own.


Yeah well I usually do, but sometimes there are multiple quotes or just really long ones and it is much easier and faster to just cut and paste the part I want to respond to. Sorry for the confusion.
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2004, 03:36:46 PM »

Quote from: "vagabond"
Quote from: "warning"
Quote from: "vagabond"
You are a nutbag.

You are on very thin ice vagabond.  You have been warned before about trolling and making personal attacks.


Give me a break I wasn't even done editing yet. I have had more than a few talks with Ron about you moderators and your overly itchy trigger fingers too. It is going to get you unmoderating really fast. That was borderline at worst before I edited.

When you hit the "submit" button your post becomes public.  If you choose to go back later and edit your post (and I'm thankful you did) that's another matter.  It still doesn't change the fact that you called someone a nutbag.  We don't allow personal insults here.  It's in the forum rules you agree to when you post here.

As for whether I need to be "unmoderating" - you can contact the chief and complain that you think you've been treated unfairly by me.
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whiteboyskim
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2004, 03:40:38 PM »

Quote from: "warning"
As for whether I need to be "unmoderating" - you can contact the chief and complain that you think you've been treated unfairly by me.


Can I complain to him that you have an unfair advantage over me in the trading forums since you participate in the PIFF? biggrin
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2004, 03:45:17 PM »

Quote from: "whiteboyskim"
Quote from: "warning"
As for whether I need to be "unmoderating" - you can contact the chief and complain that you think you've been treated unfairly by me.


Can I complain to him that you have an unfair advantage over me in the trading forums since you participate in the PIFF? biggrin

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vagabond
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2004, 03:47:40 PM »

As for whether I need to be "unmoderating" - you can contact the chief and complain that you think you've been treated unfairly by me.<<<<

Already been done. There is no doubt you treated me unfairly. I sent him your attack where you call me a troll from gone gold. Which I would consider a personal attack from you, particularly since you don't even know me and are mistaken. I told him before there was no chance I would get removed because of anything I actually said. But, because of people like you who moderate based on personal grudges, either real or in your case imagined, or just because you don't like what I said, despite the fact it doesn't actually violate any rule. You just did this without any doubt whatsoever.
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vagabond
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2004, 04:17:39 PM »

Well, Ron will either do the right thing or he won't. I have no fear that none but a very small minority might actually and truly think I have been some sort of problem on the boards and not a good contributor. So form your own opinion if I am suddenly missing. If I have to put up with being harrasssed by the moderators again, I will remove myself.
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Crux
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2004, 04:50:22 PM »

Quote from: "vagabond"
This is psychotic, if you treated them all the same everybody would be dead. If I am fighting for my life I kill you in 2 seconds, end of story, no time to talk about it or think about it later. I can tell the difference, before hand.


It isn't psychotic. It is the reason why sane people who know what they are doing don't walk around getting in fights. If a fight isn't serious enough for someone to be injured or killed, then it isn't worth fighting over.

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You are the one that thinks his skills are so good it will work 100 percent.

 
Please quote me where I said anything even remotely close to that. I'm here all day.

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In actuality I would worry less about somebody with martial arts training because they are far more likely to be overconfident.


Again talking about things you know nothing about. Someone who has *real* martial arts training knows the true dangers of picking random fights. The simple truth is, you never know what the other guy knows. You never know how good he is. Some random joe you pick a fight with in the street or in a bar could be twice as good as you and you could end up dead. Even when you've no intention to hurt someone seriously it is possible by freak accidents for people to die. So, you avoid fights at all costs and if you do get stuck in one, you're wary as all holy hell.

 
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You are and in my opinion you have used far too much force in previous engagements. This is what martial arts got you.


Now you're just being amusing. I've never broken a bone or seriously injured someone in my entire life. Why? Because I have control, something which is emphasized over and over again in training. I've never started a fight in my life, and I've never lost a fight in my life. At the same time I've never seriously hurt anyone in my life. That's what martial arts has gotten me.

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I don't even have to see you and I know for a fact I could beat you just because of your attitude. You are not discussing, you are rambling about nothing.


Riiight. We'll never know if could beat me or not because we'll never fight. Why? because I don't see myself as mr 'streetfighter'. I avoid fights. My attitude is you're someone who has no clue what he's talking about and is trying to sound impressive and tough on the internet. Congratulations, you are a winnar!

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You are hilarious. If I am fighting for my life and I gouge your eyes out of your head nobody is going to mind. If however, after the tennis match I jump the net and do it, the white shirts would come and get me. Your analogy is absurd. You have trained to fight but you don't know anything about fighing. It's like somebody reading every book they can find on how to play the guitar but never actually picked a guitar up. Then act like they are an expert. You sorely need to read Sun Tzu's art of war for a start and you need to take a chill.


And this is more random crap. You obviously don't have the faintest clue what my analogy was. I compared fighting to playing a tennis match for illuminate the effect of training. Again, martial arts comes from hundreds of years of people fighting, learning how best to do it and systematically eliminating the bad techniques. So, when someone goes to a good martial arts school, they are trained in fighting techniques. Then real fighting situations are simulated as realistically as possible without anyone getting seriously hurt. All of this is done so that said person can defend themselves as best as possible should a real situation arise.

Now, if you want to pretend that people don't get better at things by practicing them then that's great. But your guitar example shows you have no clue whatsoever. Learning martial arts isn't like reading books on playing the guitar. It is like being taught how to play the guitar by an expert. What I find absolutely hilarious is that you follow up your example of 'reading books not meaning you can play the guitar' by telling me to read a book!

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Then you're an idiot.


Lastly I do have to apologize for this comment. However true or untrue it might be it was uncalled for.
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th'FOOL
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2004, 05:49:10 PM »

Picking fights in a thread about fighting, who'da thunk it?  nod  unibrow
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2004, 06:04:02 PM »

Well,have we all been banned yet? :?
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Ye Olde Farte
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« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2004, 06:58:47 PM »

Quote from: "th'FOOL"
Picking fights in a thread about fighting, who'da thunk it?  nod  unibrow


Keyboard Commando at his best smile
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Two Sheds
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« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2004, 07:10:34 PM »

From the other thread:
Quote
Only 30 percent of men in war even fire their weapons at all.


This is untrue. The methods used to come up with this figure have been called into question and, I believe, debunked since this little "fact" was introduced. Read With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa by Eugene B. Sledge for more info.

Just wanted to point that out. Carry on.
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« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2004, 09:45:47 PM »

I have had several jobs that involved violent physical interaction.  I have "fought" a considerable amount.  I have also studied several martial arts, although I am much more intermediate than expert in any.  I am a dabbler smile  I take what I find useful and then move on, mostly.  I would like to find an art that is focused on as much grace as effectiveness, which was always my previous priority.  

That aside,  here are my thoughts on the matter.  I am mixing and matching quotes from various people, so my apologizes in advance for any confusion:

Quote from: "Two Sheds"
From the other thread:
Quote
Only 30 percent of men in war even fire their weapons at all.


This is untrue. The methods used to come up with this figure have been called into question and, I believe, debunked since this little "fact" was introduced. Read With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa by Eugene B. Sledge for more info.

Just wanted to point that out. Carry on.


Well, for World War II the numbers were more like 20% but with changes in training by Vietnam it was up to 95%.  For the authoritative study of this, read On Killing : The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.

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If I am fighting for my life I kill you in 2 seconds, end of story, no time to talk about it or think about it later. I can tell the difference, before hand.


Well again I take issue with that to a certain degree.  While *you* might,  you would have achieved this ability by years of study and preparation, either by conscious decision or unwitting environmental conditioning.  The vast majority of people could not.   Not even to save their own lives.

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In actuality I would worry less about somebody with martial arts training because they are far more likely to be overconfident.


Well, I would say that someone who had *some* training who attempted to utilize it would most likely be beaten, depending on the skill of the combatants.   If you are having to think about what comes next or how a kata fits into the current fight, it isn't going to work out against someone with experience.  Also, the type of skill would be important as well.  I have seen guys that were great one-on-one TKD fighters get into serious trouble in a group melee.

All in all, people with real skills avoid fights or have the fight brought to them.  I have seen a couple of instances where the people who were trained were predators but those were anti-social people with obvious personality disorders, much more the exception than the norm.

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You sorely need to read Sun Tzu's art of war for a start and you need to take a chill.
 

Wow.  I never knew that Sun Tzu was a requirement. slywink   Really, the point is well taken but you don't know the experience on which his opinion was formed.  Someone fighting in prison is going to have a different outlook than someone with a couple of fights in high school and some TKD lessons.

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Quote
Then you're an idiot. If I know for certain I'm fighting a boxer vs a tae kwon do guy, vs a grappling guy then it changes things a lot. If you are so arrogant you think you can 100% hit someone or do whatever you want to them no matter what they know, then good luck with your fighting because it'll probably get you killed some day.
<<<<<

You are the one that thinks his skills are so good it will work 100 percent.
 

It matters greatly if you know someone's skills in advance.  Any clues that you can garner are priceless.  Someone who is using a kicking style is different and should be handled differently than someone who is a puncher or a grappler.

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Bruce Lee was 130 pounds soaking wet. Was he good at martial arts? Sure he was. Could he take on two guys twice his size at once in a real fight? Very doubtful and certainly not ten or a hundred at once. Anybody can be overpowered, even by those with no fighting skills at all.
 

This makes everything the author said previously that was correct blind luck. smile

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Except it all comes down to the extent of training doesn't it. Some people are naturally wired for fighting, be it fisticuffs, guns, swords.. whatever. They take to it naturally, and so long as they have the physical abilities to match their will they excel at it. But if you're going to tell me that practicing fighting makes you useless then again you're talking out of your ass.


Experience is the "tires" of fighting: its how training "the engine" gets its power to the road "the situation".  A scrimmage isn't a game under hot lights with the crowds roaring, though, either.  Sorry for whipsaw-changing metaphors. smile  Experience allows one to better apply the skills that one has to the fight, knowing what to do when, and how to react to certain events.  Its not the end-all be-all, though.  Having a ton of experience is an advantage, like many others one could have or not have in any given situation.  Its great to be trained but if you are blinded by mace with no experience in blind-fighting, you could be a MMA master and it still save you. slywink

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It just means movies are unrealistic.


I tend to be a movie-fight snob.  The more the fight looks stylistic or realistic, the more I like them. smile  The two tend to be mutually exclusive.  Movie-like moments do happen, though.  I have seen people do some amazing things. smile

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« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2004, 11:28:14 PM »

My best advice about fighting would be: Keep your mouth shut and mind your own business.  That will prevent most fights.  A co-worker of mine was stabbed in a bar by violating this rule.  He didn't keep his mouth shut and he got a blade in a lung for his trouble.
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« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2004, 11:33:13 PM »

Quote from: "Rhinohelix"
I have had several jobs that involved violent physical interaction.  I have "fought" a considerable amount.  I have also studied several martial arts, although I am much more intermediate than expert in any.  I am a dabbler smile  I take what I find useful and then move on, mostly.


I think it is very important to try different styles. Unless you can go out and get honest-to-god ninja trained, none of the martial arts out there is truly complete in my opinion. They all have their strengths and weaknesses and if you can learn the strengths and then learn another style then you end up well-rounded.

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I would like to find an art that is focused on as much grace as effectiveness, which was always my previous priority.


Some of the kung-fu styles are extremely graceful, but sadly my experience with them is too limited to point you in the right direction. Of the styles I've personally tried, ITF Tae Kwon Do fit that bill the best. Sadly, the ITF has since dissolved, which is a tragedy in my eyes. ITF consistently had the highest standard in their schools that I've seen. Granted most of my experience with them was in Australia, but if you earned say a blue belt with them, you not only earned it but any other ITF school you went to the people there had earned it too.  Anyways, the reason I consider it graceful is because the style really evolved over time. They had sports physiologists analyze all the movements and tried maximize power efficiency. As a result, there is a lot of graceful use of gravity in the moves, not the forced head-always-level-at-all-times you see with more traditional styles. They tend to flow more from one stance to another. Of course I'm comparing this to traditional japanese karate and the older korean martial arts such as Tang Soo Do.

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Quote
If I am fighting for my life I kill you in 2 seconds, end of story, no time to talk about it or think about it later. I can tell the difference, before hand.


Well again I take issue with that to a certain degree.  While *you* might,  you would have achieved this ability by years of study and preparation, either by conscious decision or unwitting environmental conditioning.  The vast majority of people could not.   Not even to save their own lives.


In all frankness given the guy seems to be generally talking out his ass I'd be surprised if he could. The human body may be surprisingly frail but it takes some learning to kill someone that quickly and actually be able to pull it off against another person who is defending themselves. Sure he might actually know *how* to kill someone quickly but being able to execute is another matter altogether.

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Well, I would say that someone who had *some* training who attempted to utilize it would most likely be beaten, depending on the skill of the combatants.   If you are having to think about what comes next or how a kata fits into the current fight, it isn't going to work out against someone with experience.


That's an interesting point. It comes down to that old saying 'a little knowledge is dangerous'. One of the big gripes I have with most martial arts schools out there these days is they are far too soft on their students. They don't grind the technique into them the way it needs to be done in order for said technique to become instinctive. Because really that is what it all comes down to. Training to the point where your natural reaction has changed from what a 'normal' person would do into what a true practitioner would do. As a quick example, a side kick. in most martial arts the 'side kick' is a somewhat slower, very powerful kick where the heel is driven forward from basically the hip. Now the natural human reaction when someone kicks you is to jump back. Of course, if the distance is right and you step *forward* you can blunt the kick off and actually throw the person off-balance without them hurting you. Problem is, for most people, when you teach them that in order to implement it during a fight they have to think about it. That fraction of a section of decision-making while they consider whether or not to step forward is enough that they are screwed if they now attempt it. So, they either get kicked or give it up and block instead. But, if you train enough, you step forward without pause or hesitation, and suddenly the situation changes in your favor.

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All in all, people with real skills avoid fights or have the fight brought to them.  I have seen a couple of instances where the people who were trained were predators but those were anti-social people with obvious personality disorders, much more the exception than the norm.


Great call there. It takes a certain type of person to go looking for a fight. Most of those types of people have serious authority issues in my experience and don't ever last long in good martial arts schools. Not to say that is always the case, unfortunately.

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Bruce Lee was 130 pounds soaking wet. Was he good at martial arts? Sure he was. Could he take on two guys twice his size at once in a real fight? Very doubtful and certainly not ten or a hundred at once. Anybody can be overpowered, even by those with no fighting skills at all.
 

This makes everything the author said previously that was correct blind luck. smile


Glad I wasn't the only one who found that amusing biggrin

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Experience is the "tires" of fighting: its how training "the engine" gets its power to the road "the situation".  A scrimmage isn't a game under hot lights with the crowds roaring, though, either.  Sorry for whipsaw-changing metaphors. smile  Experience allows one to better apply the skills that one has to the fight, knowing what to do when, and how to react to certain events.  Its not the end-all be-all, though.  Having a ton of experience is an advantage, like many others one could have or not have in any given situation.  Its great to be trained but if you are blinded by mace with no experience in blind-fighting, you could be a MMA master and it still save you. slywink


The tires/engine analogy is a good one. I think two things control how well you can actually apply what you know in a pressure situation: one is experience, the other is 'will'. Will is a poor word for it though. As I said, some people are wired to fight. They thrive on it in some form or another. Others naturally shy away from it. The question is, when the fight or flight instinct kicks in, which do you tend to do? Fight or flee? If it is 'flee' and you are forced to fight you will likely do a poorer job of executing what you know than someone whose instinct is to 'fight'. Experience can moderate those influences greatly also...

Hell sometimes it comes down to your own mood even, or the situation. The roommate I had in college and I were both martial arts instructors. This was known by quite a few people as we had given self-defense classes to some of the sororities on campus. Anyways, one saturday night we're hanging out being dorks playing computer games. Some drunk kids from a nearby school and come by and as a group laid a hurting on someone we knew at a small party. Someone from the party came over to get us to help get things under control. We went, not to go pick a fight but just to stop it if things got stupid. Well, I was 3/4 asleep, really in a mellow and peaceful mood. Suddenly faced with this situation where we might be in a fight, adrenaline caught me all wrong. My teeth were chattering and it wasn't particularly cold. Had the shakes a little. I wasn't scared per se but that night I definitely wasn't in 'fight' mode biggrin Never felt like that before or since, but holy crap did that suck!

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It just means movies are unrealistic.


I tend to be a movie-fight snob.  The more the fight looks stylistic or realistic, the more I like them. smile  The two tend to be mutually exclusive.  Movie-like moments do happen, though.  I have seen people do some amazing things. smile

Rhino
[/quote]

True enough. Not all moves are unrealistic, just the majority of them. And when you have two martial artists who know their stuff it can be pretty awesome to watch. Went to watch my roommate fight in a tournament south of atlanta one time and saw him almost knocked out by a jump spinning hook kick. Was freaking awesome, though he didn't think so at the time biggrin

Likewise in a classic comedy moment, my brother and his friends got in a fight with a bunch of chinese guys once outside a pizza hut. One guy from each group had said something stupid inside, and the chinese guys left. So a little bit later my brother and his friends leave, and the chinese guys come out of nowhere and attack them in the parking lot. So my brother is standing near the car, and this dude just runs right at him and leaps into the air doing a flying side-kick. My brother steps to the side and watched him fly right past him and land in the bushes biggrin Few things funnier than martial arts gone wrong.

EDIT: Fixing quote tags.
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mori
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« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2004, 11:37:52 PM »

I am also not a fan of martial arts training.  Young men get a little knowledge and they want to try their skilz out and proceed to get their faces rearranged.
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« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2004, 11:42:45 PM »

Quote from: "mori"
I am also not a fan of martial arts training.  Young men get a little knowledge and they want to try their skilz out and proceed to get their faces rearranged.


I've been a part of multiple schools in a lot of different places. Never once seen a single student come in beat up, nor as far as I know start a fight.
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mori
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« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2004, 11:58:59 PM »

I lost a post in there somewhere :?: .

My experience is different from yours then.
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« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2004, 12:17:50 AM »

I don't necessarily agree that fighting is a good thing because hell, who wants teeth knocked out or even a fatal blow? Unfortunately it DOES solve things when all else fails, or more accurately force. Its what I have to use to put my brothers in place when they don't listen to my parents and it works.

I just think that in an honorable fight, there should be limits. If the opponent is down and pretty much out for the count, no need to keep going from there.

The last fight I got into was because of road rage, I cut someone off and he got in front of me and slammed his brakes. We came to a full stop, I wasnt gonna do anything but he got out and started coming towards me so I got out. I didn't think he would but he surprised me and threw a punch and it connected with my jaw, I let him have it with a flurry of my own punches which pretty much ended it. I actually feel bad for the guy because he was probably in his late 30's not really in shape coming against me, early 20's athletic, he didn't have a chance. Even though he was the wrong one I feel bad when I think back to it because I broke his glasses and made his nose bleed pretty badly, he probably just had a bad day at work.
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« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2004, 12:34:06 AM »

Quote from: "mori"
I lost a post in there somewhere :?: .

My experience is different from yours then.


I'd seriously like to hear your experience then.
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mori
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« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2004, 01:05:05 AM »

Haven't you seen The Karate Kid Tongue

Seriously, I knew a few guys that went around picking fights because they felt like they were suddenly tough.  That was good until they met up with some people that knew what they were doing.  

Another guy picked a fight against myself and a friend.  He was a big into TKD and thought he could take both of us  :roll: .  

Just because they are into martial arts doesn't mean they follow "the code".
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« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2004, 09:12:36 PM »

What I'd like to know, is how the encounter with two knife wielding opponents turned out. I'd really like to hear the details on this one. Not that it can't be done, but it'd be one in a million. Unless you simply out ran them. biggrin
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« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2004, 09:52:03 PM »

Quote from: "DevoutSinner"
What I'd like to know, is how the encounter with two knife wielding opponents turned out. I'd really like to hear the details on this one. Not that it can't be done, but it'd be one in a million. Unless you simply out ran them. biggrin


No, he just brought a gun to a knife fight. smile
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« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2004, 10:01:51 PM »

Quote from: "DevoutSinner"
What I'd like to know, is how the encounter with two knife wielding opponents turned out. I'd really like to hear the details on this one. Not that it can't be done, but it'd be one in a million. Unless you simply out ran them. biggrin


You don't understand. He is Teh Streetfighter!
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« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2004, 10:30:14 PM »

Quote from: "DevoutSinner"
What I'd like to know, is how the encounter with two knife wielding opponents turned out. I'd really like to hear the details on this one. Not that it can't be done, but it'd be one in a million. Unless you simply out ran them. biggrin

The world is full of tough guys smile .
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« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2004, 11:50:54 PM »

What I'm waiting for, is for someone to claim to be able to kill someone with an upward palm strike to the beak. That's one of my fav's. :lol:


 To contribute to the thread, It's my personal opinion that (after over 20 years experience in MA), that training without doubt makes a difference. As long as it's the right kind of training. TKD or Karate point fighting is not nearly as applicable (or realistic) as Thai-boxing or Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. By the way, being a martial artist AND being a seasoned street fighter, are NOT mutually exclusive.
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« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2004, 12:08:15 AM »

Tell me more about this Thai-boxing and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.
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« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2004, 01:12:19 AM »

Quote from: "DevoutSinner"
What I'm waiting for, is for someone to claim to be able to kill someone with an upward palm strike to the beak. That's one of my fav's. :lol:


 To contribute to the thread, It's my personal opinion that (after over 20 years experience in MA), that training without doubt makes a difference. As long as it's the right kind of training. TKD or Karate point fighting is not nearly as applicable (or realistic) as Thai-boxing or Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. By the way, being a martial artist AND being a seasoned street fighter, are NOT mutually exclusive.

I totally agree with you.
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« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2004, 02:01:29 AM »

Although the poster was not implying that martial artists are good street fighters, I had to make a point that MA don't follow some sort of ethic concerning there knowledge of combat.  The true believers may have this but many do not.

I don't want to speak for the poster about Brazilian Jiu-jitsu or Thai-boxing but those disicplines are what will be the more useful in the type of fight what most of us will be faced with (street fight or bar brawl).  And it is about fighting, not some Asian mythos about bettering ourselves.
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« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2004, 05:35:44 AM »

For my money, I would recommend good ol-fashioned boxing.  You arent going to do a jumping spin-kick in a real fight, but having how to throw a good right jap drilled into you is definitely useful.  You would also be amazed at how much doing a speedbag, shadowboxing, and plain running and weightlifting help.

Having said that, martial arts are very fun.  But most people want to feel confident in a physical situation, and to me, boxing and/or exercise is probably the best way to get that.
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« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2004, 06:58:49 AM »

Quote from: "DevoutSinner"
What I'd like to know, is how the encounter with two knife wielding opponents turned out. I'd really like to hear the details on this one. Not that it can't be done, but it'd be one in a million. Unless you simply out ran them. biggrin


The two jumped me in the hallway of a hotel in order to rob me. They both had little pocket type knives and fortunately or perhaps unfortunately for how it turned out I happened to have a 6 inch buck combat knife I had just bought that day sticking in my pants. I also carried one of those heavy long handled combs. I would put that in my lefthand with the comb facing down my wrist and outward. I could use that to block knife blows like a shield and I could rake it across their face with a jab. I pulled out the knife and comb and both of them immediately decided that perhaps they had bitten off more than they could chew so they made a withdrawal one down the hallway we were in, one down an adjoining. As soon as I got to the crosshall pursueing the one that went that way, the one from the blindside I couldn't see threw a full trashbag at me, which luckily for him hit me just right and wrapped around my wrist and took my knife out of my hand. His friend took the loss of my knife as a good time to charge me and mostly out of desperation I threw a straight leg kick at his face. Despite the fact I had no formal martial arts training I pulled it off perfectly and nailed him right in the face my heel in his mouth and my toe in his eye. This wiped him down the hallway seriously injured and out of the battle. His friends fragile morale broke then and he ran for it.  I collected my knife and my glasses which I had thrown off and got grabbed by the cops coming out of the hotel. They arrested me for possession of a dangerous weapon. I knew who the two were because they used their names during the battle. They were well known to the cops. That and the fact I was in the navy and had no criminal record convinced them to let me go and drop the charges.

If I had not been a skilled fighter I would not have had any chance but I just as easily could have lost. My possession of the knife in my opinion ended up being worse for me. Yeah, it made them fall back and regroup but they regrouped into a better position from which they could better use their superior numbers. But, I didn't throw that kick because master whoever said a kick would be good now. My body reacted instinctively and used whatever had the best chance of success at that point. This martial arts can teach you. I never implied it was worthless. I said it was good, it's just not the end all of hand to hand combat. There are plenty of people who know it that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper sack. I was attacked other times with knives when I didn't have one. If I had the comb I would not consider myself at any disadvantage.
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