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Question: Is it ok to kill rats with a BB gun?
Yes, kill away. - 24 (57.1%)
No, get the city to poison them. - 3 (7.1%)
Let the cat gang get them. - 11 (26.2%)
Do nothing. - 4 (9.5%)
Total Voters: 42

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Author Topic: Moral dilemma  (Read 4152 times)
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2008, 07:25:19 PM »

Quote from: kratz on October 13, 2008, 06:57:02 PM

A similar thing came up between my wife and I recently, where I was saying I kind of missed going bird hunting with my Dad.  She said that hunting was barbaric (my word, not hers), and I said 'But you eat meat.'

And so it goes.
I ask a similar question about people who eat cow or pig but can't fathom eating a dog.
We obviously have a very personal connection with dogs, but who's to say we wouldn't with a cow?
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« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2008, 07:28:33 PM »

Quote from: Eduardo X on October 13, 2008, 07:25:19 PM


I ask a similar question about people who eat cow or pig but can't fathom eating a dog.
We obviously have a very personal connection with dogs, but who's to say we wouldn't with a cow?

I love cows.  I also love the way they taste.  I would eat a dog, too.  See how twisted I am?  I would eat a dog, but can't squash a bug because I feel bad.  It's the whole thing about having someone else do it for me.  If I would have lived back in the old days, I would either have had to suck it up and kill stuff or just go vegetarian.
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2008, 07:30:28 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on October 13, 2008, 06:56:36 PM

Quote from: Isgrimnur on October 13, 2008, 06:49:16 PM

The morality of an atheist, I would say, is purer than that of a lot of religious people.  The atheist do right because they know it to be right.  

How do they know it to be right?  Where does that knowledge come from?

Let's take this to R&P...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 08:02:03 PM by Isgrimnur » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2008, 07:36:41 PM »

Quote from: Eduardo X on October 13, 2008, 07:25:19 PM

I ask a similar question about people who eat cow or pig but can't fathom eating a dog.
We obviously have a very personal connection with dogs, but who's to say we wouldn't with a cow?

Have you ever had a cow lick your face? Not good.
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« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2008, 08:06:47 PM »

Quote from: Suitably Ironic Moniker on October 13, 2008, 05:46:07 PM

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on October 13, 2008, 04:12:22 PM

Maybe since the question is one of a moral dilemma, this should be moved to R&P as folks have already unjustly brought the venom against Ed...



Athiests have morals too. The concept of morality is not inherently religious.
Atheism is as much of a religion as any other world view.
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« Reply #45 on: October 13, 2008, 08:13:16 PM »

Quote from: Laner on October 13, 2008, 08:06:47 PM

Quote from: Suitably Ironic Moniker on October 13, 2008, 05:46:07 PM


Athiests have morals too. The concept of morality is not inherently religious.
Atheism is as much of a religion as any other world view.

Quote
A religion is a set of tenets and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, or religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.

Quote
Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods,[1] or the rejection of theism.[2] It is also[3] defined more broadly as an absence of belief in deities, or nontheism.

That doesn't sound like the same thing to me.
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Lee
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« Reply #46 on: October 13, 2008, 08:16:11 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on October 13, 2008, 06:56:36 PM

How do they know it to be right?  Where does that knowledge come from?

Atheists are smart. We don't need a book or someones interpretation of a book to determine right and wrong. Otherwise we would think it's ok to stone a woman because she was raped. I know it's amazing but the prison system isn't full of atheists.
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Lee
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« Reply #47 on: October 13, 2008, 08:17:11 PM »

Quote from: Laner on October 13, 2008, 08:06:47 PM

Atheism is as much of a religion as any other world view.

Explain please?
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The Grue
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« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2008, 08:48:54 PM »

Quote from: Lee on October 13, 2008, 08:16:11 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on October 13, 2008, 06:56:36 PM

How do they know it to be right?  Where does that knowledge come from?

Atheists are smart. We don't need a book or someones interpretation of a book to determine right and wrong. Otherwise we would think it's ok to stone a woman because she was raped. I know it's amazing but the prison system isn't full of atheists.

Ah, but some people today still think this is okay, regardless of books or not.  By the way, I totally agree you can have morality without religion.
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« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2008, 09:01:19 PM »

Quote from: Eduardo X on October 13, 2008, 06:03:31 PM

I am vegan for my own reasons. I am not part of some vegan club. I happily eat honey. I know that soy is killing off the amazon quicker than any meat ever could. So, I CERTAINLY don't speak for "Vegans." I'm just somebody who calls himself one.

My issue with meat isn't so much about killing, just about having other people kill for you. I figure: if you don't have the stomach to do it yourself, why do you feel it's ok for somebody else to do it for you?

Oh, OK. It's like this: Life lives by consuming other living things. That's just how the world is set up. You can try to rationalize that away by eating only the lowest life forms, but you can't escape the basic concept -- one organism lives only if others die. Personally, I'm comfortable with being heir to 2 million years of omnivorous evolution. I have no problems with killing or eating meat. I appreciate that I don't have to do it myself; it's time-consuming and difficult. But I have enthusiastically killed, dressed, cooked, and eaten all manner of fish, fowl, and small mammals myself.

The leap from killing for food to killing vermin is easy to make.

I don't personally hunt or fish for pleasure anymore, or kill just for the pure joy of killing, because that is an atavistic indulgence in our overcrowded, mechanized world.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2008, 09:48:56 PM »

Here's one good reason why there isn't one group that speaks for vegans.
PETA should be ashamed. But, they don't know what that word means.
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« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2008, 10:11:14 PM »

Quote from: Lee on October 13, 2008, 08:16:11 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on October 13, 2008, 06:56:36 PM

How do they know it to be right?  Where does that knowledge come from?

Atheists are smart. We don't need a book or someones interpretation of a book to determine right and wrong. Otherwise we would think it's ok to stone a woman because she was raped. I know it's amazing but the prison system isn't full of atheists.

Ya, but that didn't answer the question.  No one is saying Atheist = dumb.  If you don't need a book to determine right or wrong, which is fine, where do you get it from?  Are atheists born with the knowledge?  Does every atheist determine their own 'morals'?
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« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2008, 10:37:54 PM »

Well - and I realize that it's a newsflash for some - most people develop their sense of right and wrong from the influence of their families. There are certainly some exceptions, but this is how it's done, by and large. I know, shocking!!!
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« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2008, 10:49:21 PM »

Kill the fuckers. Use a pellet gun. Poison them.  Trap them.  Don't get all touchy-feely with a disease carrying nasty rat. Kill'em all.
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Lee
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« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2008, 10:50:04 PM »

Quote from: Rowdy on October 13, 2008, 10:11:14 PM

Quote from: Lee on October 13, 2008, 08:16:11 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on October 13, 2008, 06:56:36 PM

How do they know it to be right?  Where does that knowledge come from?

Atheists are smart. We don't need a book or someones interpretation of a book to determine right and wrong. Otherwise we would think it's ok to stone a woman because she was raped. I know it's amazing but the prison system isn't full of atheists.

Ya, but that didn't answer the question.  No one is saying Atheist = dumb.  If you don't need a book to determine right or wrong, which is fine, where do you get it from?  Are atheists born with the knowledge?  Does every atheist determine their own 'morals'?

Society and the instinct of right of wrong is where people get it from. Knowing that I don't want to be treated a certain way and I probably shouldn't treat others that way is pretty basic instinct. I know Christians like to think that their religion dictates it, but if that was true then I would think it's a good thing to hate gay people and to think everyone who doesn't agree with me is evil.
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« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2008, 11:14:13 PM »

Quote
Well - and I realize that it's a newsflash for some - most people develop their sense of right and wrong from the influence of their families. There are certainly some exceptions, but this is how it's done, by and large. I know, shocking!!!

There's an obvious question to follow up to your oversimplification. Do you know what it is?


Quote from: Lee on October 13, 2008, 10:50:04 PM

Society and the instinct of right of wrong is where people get it from.

Right and wrong is an instinct?  I've never heard it defined as such.  So Evil and Good are instinct too? Or do good and evil not exist?

Quote
Knowing that I don't want to be treated a certain way and I probably shouldn't treat others that way is pretty basic instinct.

ORLY? I've never heard that as a cited instinct for any animal ever.  So animals know good and evil and proper behaivor as instinct?

Quote
I know Christians like to think that their religion dictates it, but if that was true then I would think it's a good thing to hate gay people and to think everyone who doesn't agree with me is evil.

Show me someplace in christian theology that says gays are to be hated and that Christian's believe that everyone who disagrees with them are evil.  It's a basic tenet of Christianity that all men are sinful...including Christians.  But we've been here before and the mob won't be swayed...

In any event, the bottom line is this: we know there is a right way and a wrong way- but what are we ultimately comparing that against? What's the baseline? There has to be one or else how do we know something is right or wrong in the first place?  If you say societal norm, then by what ruler is that norm judged? There's kernel right and a kernal wrong. Where do those come from?

Anyway, the thread has been totally derailed me thinks.
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« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2008, 11:15:46 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on October 13, 2008, 07:30:28 PM

Quote from: Rowdy on October 13, 2008, 06:56:36 PM

Quote from: Isgrimnur on October 13, 2008, 06:49:16 PM

The morality of an atheist, I would say, is purer than that of a lot of religious people.  The atheist do right because they know it to be right.  

How do they know it to be right?  Where does that knowledge come from?

Let's take this to R&P...

+10000  Totally derailed....
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« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2008, 11:34:57 PM »

You know after reading the OO mirror thread, this topic is way over my head.
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« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2008, 11:50:44 PM »

Quote from: Lee on October 13, 2008, 11:34:57 PM

You know after reading the OO mirror thread, this topic is way over my head.

It's really not. Morality is a fundamental for all humanity.  After some thought I get the instinct argument now though it's never been labeled an instinct in any of the reading I've done, but I would say it's the conscience as placed in us by the Creator. 

In any event, I'm personally not going to discuss this any further on the forums...
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« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2008, 01:01:18 AM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on October 13, 2008, 11:14:13 PM

Show me someplace in christian theology that says gays are to be hated
I think we should move this type of conversation to the thread they made in the "Religion / Politics" forum.

I have your answer there.
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« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2008, 02:33:58 AM »

Quote from: The Grue on October 13, 2008, 07:28:33 PM

Quote from: Eduardo X on October 13, 2008, 07:25:19 PM


I ask a similar question about people who eat cow or pig but can't fathom eating a dog.
We obviously have a very personal connection with dogs, but who's to say we wouldn't with a cow?

I love cows.  I also love the way they taste.  I would eat a dog, too.  See how twisted I am?  I would eat a dog, but can't squash a bug because I feel bad.  It's the whole thing about having someone else do it for me.  If I would have lived back in the old days, I would either have had to suck it up and kill stuff or just go vegetarian.

But in the old days you would of grown up in a different enviroment with completely different influences. You may have been knocking cows over with a hammer right next to me.

As far as the rats go, the BB gun is not going to be an effective weapon. A pellet gun would be a better alternative. Cats can take a few rats down but a good dog can kill many, many more.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2008, 04:13:53 AM »

My BB gun is also a pellet gun.
Also, the cats seem to have done their job as I haven't seen a rat in about 2 weeks.
Also, my dog doesn't know what to do when she catches something. It's the Sheltie in her, I guess.
Also, I'm not actually gonna kill anything.

Morality is pretty much an instinct. We are a social animal, and like any social animal, understand our place in a group. Without that group, we as humans are weak and vulnerable. Culture and society are the only things that have made humans evolve into the dominant species on the planet.
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« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2008, 05:12:49 AM »

Quote from: Lee on October 13, 2008, 08:16:11 PM


Atheists are smart. We don't need a book or someones interpretation of a book to determine right and wrong.

I imagined you saying that with a Roscoe P. Coletrane voice.

And I laughed my ass off.

Thanks!
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« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2008, 05:29:52 PM »

When did it become immoral to kill a fucking rat?  Rats can spread fleas. Rats could get rabies.  They could give that rabies to the feral flea-carrying cats, or to your dog. 
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« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2008, 07:27:08 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on October 13, 2008, 06:46:59 PM

Quote from: Eduardo X on October 13, 2008, 06:03:31 PM


My issue with meat isn't so much about killing, just about having other people kill for you. I figure: if you don't have the stomach to do it yourself, why do you feel it's ok for somebody else to do it for you?


This is something I struggle with all the time.  By the way, my comments to you, Ed, were just pointing out that there is a conflict there.  I have my own and you just outlined it.  I refuse to kill anything myself.  I let bugs do what they want.  I let mice and rats do what the want.  I always feel horrible when I hit something by accident in my car.  And yet, I eat meat.  I had a colleague who only ate what meat he killed himself and I totally respected him for that.  I myself couldn't do the killing, but I always admired how he was tough enough to do the deed himself and only eat what he killed.  I've tried going vegetarian and vegan, but I really miss the meat and so I am responsible for all kinds of animal killing, even though I can't bring myself to do it.

Just hope he doesn't develop a taste for human flesh and is pitted against you on the next promotion opportunity.
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« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2008, 07:43:29 PM »

Quote from: dmd on October 14, 2008, 05:29:52 PM

When did it become immoral to kill a fucking rat?  Rats can spread fleas. Rats could get rabies.  They could give that rabies to the feral flea-carrying cats, or to your dog. 

Most would agree with you, but the OP specifically mentioned being vegan, which implies the adoption of some code as it relates to a desire not to kill animals.  If you don't eat them because of that code, you can hardly kill them because they are inconvenient to live by.

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« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2008, 08:22:52 PM »

Quote from: Sarkus on October 14, 2008, 07:43:29 PM

Quote from: dmd on October 14, 2008, 05:29:52 PM

When did it become immoral to kill a fucking rat?  Rats can spread fleas. Rats could get rabies.  They could give that rabies to the feral flea-carrying cats, or to your dog. 

Most would agree with you, but the OP specifically mentioned being vegan, which implies the adoption of some code as it relates to a desire not to kill animals.  If you don't eat them because of that code, you can hardly kill them because they are inconvenient to live by.
It became unhealthy to live with mice, and so I killed them. I'm not happy about it, but it's better than having mice poop in our food.
It's a similar situation with the rats.
The reason I asked was because Jennifer thought it was wrong to use a BB gun to kill them, but fine to have the city come out and use poison.
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