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Author Topic: Mom arranges for daughter to be raped  (Read 3363 times)
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Raven
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« on: June 04, 2005, 07:32:28 PM »

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=808689&page=1

I hope they throw the mother into a pool of hungry sharks.
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Knightshade Dragon
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2005, 08:02:50 PM »

:shock: That is by far one of the most horrible things I've read in a long time...just sick.
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« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2005, 08:42:41 PM »

Sometimes I hate people so, so much. What is wrong with us?
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disarm
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« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2005, 08:47:42 PM »

time to play devil's advocate for a minute just to be a little sceptical of the media's portrayal of news in general...

i am in no way saying that the mother's actions were right, but it doesn't  ever say in that article that the girls refused to participate.  the willingness of the girls is an issue never raised in that article and it is never said that the two guys forced them to do anything against their will.  that entire story could be considered true, and the same rape/sexual assault charges brought against everyone, even if the girls consented to everything that took place because of statutory rape laws.  when the alleged "victims" are below the age of consent, the law doesn't care if the girls willingly had sex or not...the accused gets charged with rape either way.  your gut reaction when reading that story is to picture a 13-year old girl forced to have sex with an older guy against her will while the mother watched from the corner...but that may not be the case at all.

does that make the mother's attitude toward her daughter and sex morally "right?"  it may not, but would you look at the story a little differently if you knew the two girls were willing participants and the mother was just facilitating her first time?

just a little food for thought...
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« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2005, 09:16:39 PM »

Yes, but you also have to think what sort of strange ideas that mom put into her daughter's head before presenting them with this situation.

If the girls had gone out and grabbed some boys around their age, then sure, it's their choice and a private matter.

But the mom grabbing some 18 year old boys to have sex with 13-14 yo girls is just plain wrong.
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gameoverman
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« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2005, 10:15:23 PM »

That article sure makes it sound like it was a Mom/daughter/friend consensual thing, they ALL met and exchanged numbers.

So yeah, these girls were underage, so legally it's a moot point, but otherwise there's nothing brutal or worthy of making this anywhere near a 'worst thing I've read' type story.  It's about on par with the 'moms who hire strippers for their underage sons' type of stories.

The real losers here are the idiots who played along with this- the two guys.  18 and 19, headed to PRISON, even if they get only a couple of years- you know they're gonna wind up being punked out.  I bet the mom and girls hooked up with them because they were 'cute', not because they were hardcore badasses.  So when they get locked up, that 'cute' is gonna be their downfall.
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corruptrelic
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« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2005, 10:28:04 PM »

I'm with disarm, while I agree the mother was wrong and it sounds like an unfortunate incident, it didn't say anything about the two men (who were only a few years older than the girls themselves) in anyway forcing themselves onto the girls.
For those of you with the wool over your eyes, we are in the 21st century. Has anyone been through a high school after they get out lately? I have to go by ours nearly every day after work and my GOD the girls are dressed to kill. Even though it's wrong I Find my eyes wondering over to the girls crossing the street and not paying attention to the traffic! Then I realize these girls are only about 14 or 15. (I'm 24)
Really, aside from the way they dress, it's no secret that a good number of teens are out there having sex anyway. If you haven't seen the movie "Thirteen" I'd definitely recommend it. It seems to portray the true life of a 13 year old girl when it comes to sex.

Having said all that, rape in all it's form is bad and should if anything, get life in prison. However, what happened here may not have been rape at all, right or wrong, by the time you reach the age 13 or 14 you can make up your own mind and should be able to tell right and wrong apart. If they chose the wrong path, they are just as much to blame as a couple of horny 18-19 year olds who were happy to do what apparently the mother, and possibly even the daughter and friend, wanted all along.
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2005, 10:30:57 PM »

Actually, chances are that one or both of the girls didn't like the situation so much.  See, someone had to report this to the cops and they don't go into detail about who did so.  Yes, it could have been the people next door at the hotel, but I'm willing to bet it was one of the participants.

Statutory rape isn't anything until someone reports it.  The problem with the report is that it doesn't go into enough detail about who brought the situation up to the police.
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2005, 11:28:15 PM »

Quote from: "disarm"
time to play devil's advocate for a minute just to be a little sceptical of the media's portrayal of news in general...

i am in no way saying that the mother's actions were right, but it doesn't  ever say in that article that the girls refused to participate.  the willingness of the girls is an issue never raised in that article and it is never said that the two guys forced them to do anything against their will.  that entire story could be considered true, and the same rape/sexual assault charges brought against everyone, even if the girls consented to everything that took place because of statutory rape laws.  when the alleged "victims" are below the age of consent, the law doesn't care if the girls willingly had sex or not...the accused gets charged with rape either way.  your gut reaction when reading that story is to picture a 13-year old girl forced to have sex with an older guy against her will while the mother watched from the corner...but that may not be the case at all.

does that make the mother's attitude toward her daughter and sex morally "right?"  it may not, but would you look at the story a little differently if you knew the two girls were willing participants and the mother was just facilitating her first time?

just a little food for thought...

I both agree and disagree.  It doesn't sound like there was force involved (but who knows?) but our legal system has stated that people who are the age of those two girls do not have the maturity to be able to fully consent to sex with an adult.

The lines have to be drawn somewhere.  What excuse do those two guys have?  "Well they looked at least 15..."  I find it hard to believe there are guys 18 and older who have not at least heard of statutory rape.
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Belgedin
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2005, 02:36:50 AM »

Quote
The real losers here are the idiots who played along with this- the two guys. 18 and 19, headed to PRISON, even if they get only a couple of years- you know they're gonna wind up being punked out. I bet the mom and girls hooked up with them because they were 'cute', not because they were hardcore badasses. So when they get locked up, that 'cute' is gonna be their downfall.


Sorry, I don't have any sympathy for someone willing to have sex with a child.

The two guys and the mother all deserve far more than what they'll get for this.
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Calvin
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2005, 02:49:10 AM »

Are you guys somehow missing the fucking point that the MOTHER ARRANGED OR AT LEAST SET THIS SHIT UP? A 13 and 14 year old girl and an 18 and 19 year old guy?

Who the fuck defends this and why? Oh good lord I am not reading this thread anymore.[/b]
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Rob_Merritt
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2005, 04:36:17 AM »

Reading form that one article, I don't think its that clear cut. This line gets me, "the girls had indicated to her that they had sex." So she wasn't there and when she returned, they had to tell her, she didn't figure it out on her own. The way it reads, it sounds liuke the girls were ok with it at the time. Yeah the law is the law and 13 is way too young but the details don't sound right. Is it possible the girls just said they had sex or maybe only one of them did? I need a lot more details before I want to throw away the key.
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disarm
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2005, 08:25:28 AM »

Quote from: "Rob_Merritt"
Reading form that one article, I don't think its that clear cut. This line gets me, "the girls had indicated to her that they had sex." So she wasn't there and when she returned, they had to tell her, she didn't figure it out on her own. The way it reads, it sounds liuke the girls were ok with it at the time. Yeah the law is the law and 13 is way too young but the details don't sound right. Is it possible the girls just said they had sex or maybe only one of them did? I need a lot more details before I want to throw away the key.

i'm glad to see that there is someone else that's not just going with the knee-jerk reaction to the headline.  like i said, i'm not defending the mothers actions...i just think there's a significant part of the story that we're not hearing...
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Raven
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2005, 09:04:30 AM »

Here's the point. Why didn't the mother contact the police, when she found out what happened. Oh, that's right. She was amused by it.
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Belgedin
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2005, 05:14:24 PM »

Quote
Reading form that one article, I don't think its that clear cut. This line gets me, "the girls had indicated to her that they had sex." So she wasn't there and when she returned, they had to tell her, she didn't figure it out on her own. The way it reads, it sounds liuke the girls were ok with it at the time. Yeah the law is the law and 13 is way too young but the details don't sound right. Is it possible the girls just said they had sex or maybe only one of them did? I need a lot more details before I want to throw away the key.


Yeah she didn't see because the whore was out buying them friggin alcohol.  Nice Alibi.
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Toe
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« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2005, 03:12:22 PM »

Quote from: "Belgedin"
Quote
Reading form that one article, I don't think its that clear cut. This line gets me, "the girls had indicated to her that they had sex." So she wasn't there and when she returned, they had to tell her, she didn't figure it out on her own. The way it reads, it sounds liuke the girls were ok with it at the time. Yeah the law is the law and 13 is way too young but the details don't sound right. Is it possible the girls just said they had sex or maybe only one of them did? I need a lot more details before I want to throw away the key.


Yeah she didn't see because the whore was out buying them friggin alcohol.  Nice Alibi.


I know, I can't frickin' believe this!!! Doesn't she know the girls are supposed to get drunk before they get it stuck up their butts?! Sheesh. :roll:
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deadzone
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2005, 04:53:29 PM »

I don't think that anybody disagrees that what the mom did is despicable.  I just find the whole thing strange and a little far-out I guess.  Doesn't seem like the young girls were against it, if I am reading the whole article right.  I find everyone's act in this situation pretty disgusting.  

Those two guys are going to be prison bitches soon.  It's a real shame they used the wrong heads.
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Dafones
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2005, 06:40:27 PM »

Quote
A Suffolk County, N.Y., mother has been charged with accessory to rape after allegedly standing by while two men sexually assaulted her 13-year-old daughter and the girl's 14-year-old friend in a hotel room because she believed it was time the teenager had sex. (Bold my own.)


Quote
The two men, Gilberto Gonzalez, 19, of Pleasantville, and Michael Berger, 18, of White Plains, where charged with second-degree rape and other sex crimes. (Bold my own.)


Quote
...and she did nothing to stop the two young men when they started kissing and fondling the girls on the beds in the hotel room. (Again, bold my own.)


I don't know if it is the slant of the article, but I never got the sense that the girls were all that willing - they were victims of sexual abuse, and not merely in a legal sense.
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Toe
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2005, 07:10:05 PM »

Quote from: "Dafones"
Quote
A Suffolk County, N.Y., mother has been charged with accessory to rape after allegedly standing by while two men sexually assaulted her 13-year-old daughter and the girl's 14-year-old friend in a hotel room because she believed it was time the teenager had sex. (Bold my own.)


Quote
The two men, Gilberto Gonzalez, 19, of Pleasantville, and Michael Berger, 18, of White Plains, where charged with second-degree rape and other sex crimes. (Bold my own.)


Quote
...and she did nothing to stop the two young men when they started kissing and fondling the girls on the beds in the hotel room. (Again, bold my own.)


I don't know if it is the slant of the article, but I never got the sense that the girls were all that willing - they were victims of sexual abuse, and not merely in a legal sense.


Well, the writer spun statutory rape into "sexual assault" and "other sex crimes" were probably things like "illegal contact with a minor", stuff like that. They were probably omitted because they did not sound menacing enough for the writers slant.  Note that it is second-degree rape. I am not sure what that is by definition of the law, but it does not sound as bad as 1st degree. To me, it implies consent, i.e. statutory rape (but I could be wrong.). As for the kissing and fondling, its called foreplay, which is normally engaged in prior to consensual sex.

To me, it sounded like they were willing and eager to be with the boys...oh, I am sorry, I meant "men".
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Belgedin
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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2005, 07:29:57 PM »

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To me, it sounded like they were willing and eager to be with the boys...oh, I am sorry, I meant "men".


Toe, apparently, has thing for little girls himself.  Congratulations, you're the "knight in shining armor" for a couple of perverts. Stand proud, jackass.
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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2005, 08:20:42 PM »

DANGER! CoC violation sensed! Shutdown imminent!
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« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2005, 08:32:30 PM »



Seriously.  Cool it guys.  Name-calling and personal slurs are not necessary.
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gameoverman
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« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2005, 10:22:30 PM »

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According to the indictments, the mother and two girls first met the men in an elevator at the City Center mall, and saw them again in a restaurant where they exchanged cell phone numbers.


Emphasis mine.  It doesn't say the MOM met the guys and the MOM exchanged numbers with them- which is part of what leads me to understand that the girls were a willing party to this and were part of the 'they' exchanging numbers.

Quote
They arranged to meet again in the Crowne Plaza Hotel room the woman had reserved for their shopping trip, where they could "get comfortable,"


Again, 'they', not 'the mother and the two men'.  Like I said in my earlier post, this incident was illegal so there's no arguing what happened was okay.  It's just that I don't see the girls being exploited here, the way some are spinning it.

In fact, reading the article again, it occurs to me the mom might even have thought these two guys WERE the girls' age.  After all, she had to buy alcohol for them, they(the guys) didn't supply it as guys usually do.  Maybe they were young looking and that's why the mom picked them for this mission.  

Of course, being young looking AND cute is going to make them even more popular in prison than in the mall.
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Toe
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« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2005, 11:02:00 AM »

Quote from: "Belgedin"
Quote
To me, it sounded like they were willing and eager to be with the boys...oh, I am sorry, I meant "men".


Toe, apparently, has thing for little girls himself.  Congratulations, you're the "knight in shining armor" for a couple of perverts. Stand proud, jackass.


Well, at least I am not a gullible moron who can't grasp the concept of media spin. Stand proud, dumbass.
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« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2005, 11:27:13 AM »

And we're locked.
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