Lost: The Final Season (spoilers not tagged)

[th'FOOL]

I read that thing but I don't buy that she was the smoke monster for a second. If she was, how come she could get stabbed and die later in the episode? Her body was found by the Losties centuries later, further proving that it wasn't just a trick.

Sure, if she was JUST the smoke monster. I'm of the belief that the true guardianship of the island requires a unity of light and dark. The reason why things have gone awry is because that guardianship was split, giving the opportunity for one or the other to gain dominance or possibly eliminate it's counterpart, which is BAD. You cannot have light without darkness....

[Vidiot]

Crazy idea...

What if the Kwon on the list was their child?

[hepcat]

You're missing THE point. The 'source' is a macguffin- it's like what was in Marcellus' briefcase in Pulp Fiction. We've already gotten what the characters consider to be a scientific reasoning for it, this is a different take. It's not like someone's going to pop open a copy of Hitchhiker's Guide and all of a sudden Stephen Fry is going to give us a full breakdown on what it really is. It is a magical/scientific anomaly that can't be explained away- that's the point. Besides, any explanation the writers come up with will pale in comparison to what everybody is conjecturing.

This ain't no Maltese Falcon, pal.  I guess I'm not as eager to accept table scraps from the writers on this show as you are.  You may be happy with the metaphysical half-answers they're trying to shove down our throats (and one's that aren't even taken seriously in first year philosophy classes at a community college, at that), but don't try to convince people that being vague is an intelligent writing tool...especially with a show like Lost.  Battlestar Galactica tried this crap too towards the end and got shredded for it by fans.  There's a threshold where "leaving it up to the viewer" is tantamount to "we don't know where to go, so we'll let you do the heavy lifting".

I'm not saying they aren't going to tighten it up and follow through on some of the earlier promises from the show's beginning (at that time, I took some of their statements in interviews as indicating they WEREN'T going to fall back on macguffins and other tricks), but I fear this is what's going to happen.

[th'FOOL]

This ain't no Maltese Falcon, pal.  I guess I'm not as eager to accept table scraps from the writers on this show as you are.  You may be happy with the metaphysical half-answers they're trying to shove down our throats (and one's that aren't even taken seriously in first year philosophy classes at a community college, at that), but don't try to convince people that being vague is an intelligent writing tool...especially with a show like Lost.  Battlestar Galactica tried this crap too towards the end and got shredded for it by fans.  There's a threshold where "leaving it up to the viewer" is tantamount to "we don't know where to go, so we'll let you do the heavy lifting".

What you see as crap, I see as perfectly legitimate plot devices in what is a character driven sci-fi/fantasy series. I actually LIKE not knowing all of the answers, because it makes for more interesting discussion and interpretation. I HATE being spoonfed, and it seems like that's what you want.

I was happy with The Force in Star Wars being described as "as an energy field created by all living things, that surrounds and penetrates living beings and binds the galaxy together", or basically 'magic'. You want someone to come along and tell us it was all midichlorians.

You're also forgetting that one of the central themes of Lost is faith vs. science. Every time you think they are leaning one way or another, they shift, and I think that's great- it allows the viewer to project into the show and decide for themselves.

[hepcat]

This ain't no Maltese Falcon, pal.  I guess I'm not as eager to accept table scraps from the writers on this show as you are.  You may be happy with the metaphysical half-answers they're trying to shove down our throats (and one's that aren't even taken seriously in first year philosophy classes at a community college, at that), but don't try to convince people that being vague is an intelligent writing tool...especially with a show like Lost.  Battlestar Galactica tried this crap too towards the end and got shredded for it by fans.  There's a threshold where "leaving it up to the viewer" is tantamount to "we don't know where to go, so we'll let you do the heavy lifting".

What you see as crap, I see as perfectly legitimate plot devices in what is a character driven sci-fi/fantasy series. I actually LIKE not knowing all of the answers, because it makes for more interesting discussion and interpretation. I HATE being spoonfed, and it seems like that's what you want.

I was happy with The Force in Star Wars being described as "as an energy field created by all living things, that surrounds and penetrates living beings and binds the galaxy together", or basically 'magic'. You want someone to come along and tell us it was all midichlorians.

You're also forgetting that one of the central themes of Lost is faith vs. science. Every time you think they are leaning one way or another, they shift, and I think that's great- it allows the viewer to project into the show and decide for themselves.

I don't want to be spoonfed, I want writers who know how to create an intelligent story that fosters intelligent discourse by giving us plot points that go beyond "it just is!".  The Force wasn't an essential plot point in the Star Wars movies and could exist in that state without affecting the film to any great degree.  The glowing sewer is an absolutely essential part of Lost and explains many of the main character's actions.  Not explaining that is lazy writing.

[Bullwinkle]

I love how intelligent discourse has boiled down to:

"You like midichlorians!"
"Yeah, well, you like Transformers 3!"

[hepcat]

I love how intelligent discourse has boiled down to:

"You like midichlorians!"
"Yeah, well, you like Transformers 3!"

I edited before I saw this because I didn't want to get into a "you are, no YOU are" argument.  

[th'FOOL]

How was The Force not an essential plot point of Star Wars?!?!?!  Seriously?

[Eel Snave]

I love that writeup.  Honestly, it solves the problems I had with the episode.

A lot of Lost is simply open to interpretation.  I have a feeling that the final episode is going to be MOTS, but I wouldn't like Lost if it answered all my questions.  It's not that kind of show and never has been.

[LoneStarSpur]

I read that thing but I don't buy that she was the smoke monster for a second. If she was, how come she could get stabbed and die later in the episode? Her body was found by the Losties centuries later, further proving that it wasn't just a trick.

Sure, if she was JUST the smoke monster. I'm of the belief that the true guardianship of the island requires a unity of light and dark. The reason why things have gone awry is because that guardianship was split, giving the opportunity for one or the other to gain dominance or possibly eliminate it's counterpart, which is BAD. You cannot have light without darkness....

Very interesting though. You might have it figured out.

I now think that Murdering Mother was indeed Smokey. MIB was able to kill her because she didn't say anything before he stabbed her (why that would make any difference I don't have the slightest idea), like the Dogan/Sawyer thing. Smokey now seems to have MIB's over-arching need to leave the island.

I don't know...in other ways it just doesn't make sense unless Smokey was something other than he is now before MIB went through the Shining Sewer.

One thing that worries me: everyone died during this change in guardianship. That doesn't bode well for all the Losties except for the new Guardian.

[hepcat]

How was The Force not an essential plot point of Star Wars?!?!?!  Seriously?

The Force was a power in Star Wars that was used as a tool by the characters.  Sure, it corrupted some characters...but money can do the same thing to a street gang member. 

The Golden Sewer in Lost exists as a power AND as a force that seemingly acts of its own accord...with rules that appear to change without explanation or reason at the drop of a hat.  In Star Wars, we know what the Force is capable of and what its rules are.  In Lost, we have essentially a deus ex machina that gives the writers license to use the excuse "it just is!" whenever something happens.

[th'FOOL]

A lot of Lost is simply open to interpretation.  I have a feeling that the final episode is going to be MOTS, but I wouldn't like Lost if it answered all my questions.  It's not that kind of show and never has been.

My point exactly. It wouldn't have lasted this long and we wouldn't be having these conversations if it did.

[hepcat]

A lot of Lost is simply open to interpretation.  I have a feeling that the final episode is going to be MOTS, but I wouldn't like Lost if it answered all my questions.  It's not that kind of show and never has been.

My point exactly. It wouldn't have lasted this long and we wouldn't be having these conversations if it did.

Having a conversation about lazy writing towards the end of a show is not justification for the show's existence.   

[th'FOOL]

How was The Force not an essential plot point of Star Wars?!?!?!  Seriously?

The Force was a power in Star Wars that was used as a tool by the characters.  The Golden Sewer in Lost exists as that AND as a force that seemingly acts of its own accord...with rules that appear to change without explanation or reason at the drop of a hat.  In Star Wars, we know what the Force is capable of and what its rules are.  In Lost, we have essentially a deus ex machina that gives the writers license to use the excuse "it just is!" whenever something happens.

No, The Force was depicted more as a natural phenomenon that could be used as a tool by those with the ability to do so. The fact that there was a light and dark side to it attests to the fact that it was open to interpretation. The main difference between that and the 'source' in Lost is that, in Lost, the 'source' is treated almost like a character itself, with motivations that aren't made clear and are open to interpretation. I'm of the opinion that the rules that govern it shift according to the interpretation of those who guard it, and there is plenty there to suggest this.

[th'FOOL]

A lot of Lost is simply open to interpretation.  I have a feeling that the final episode is going to be MOTS, but I wouldn't like Lost if it answered all my questions.  It's not that kind of show and never has been.

My point exactly. It wouldn't have lasted this long and we wouldn't be having these conversations if it did.

Having a conversation about lazy writing towards the end of a show is not justification for the show's existence.   

Let's just agree to disagree then, 'cause I don't subscribe to your newsletter at all.

[hepcat]

How was The Force not an essential plot point of Star Wars?!?!?!  Seriously?

The Force was a power in Star Wars that was used as a tool by the characters.  The Golden Sewer in Lost exists as that AND as a force that seemingly acts of its own accord...with rules that appear to change without explanation or reason at the drop of a hat.  In Star Wars, we know what the Force is capable of and what its rules are.  In Lost, we have essentially a deus ex machina that gives the writers license to use the excuse "it just is!" whenever something happens.

No, The Force was depicted more as a natural phenomenon that could be used as a tool by those with the ability to do so.

No?  Then why are "natural phenomenon" and "power" mutually exclusive?  

The fact that there was a light and dark side to it attests to the fact that it was open to interpretation.

In the same way money, power and sex are open to interpretation?  we all want them.  it's what we're willing to do in the pursuit of these things that determines their nature.  How is that vague?  being open to interpretation is not the issue, in any case.  at issue is forcing interpretation in a cheap manner, which is one of things that I'm accusing Lost of doing (at this time).

The main difference between that and the 'source' in Lost is that, in Lost, the 'source' is treated almost like a character itself, with motivations that aren't made clear and are open to interpretation. I'm of the opinion that the rules that govern it shift according to the interpretation of those who guard it, and there is plenty there to suggest this.

as i hinted at earlier, my reluctance to accept huge chunks of the plot entirely on the basis of faith is less a sign of my inability to understand the show insomuch as it is my opinion that the writers aren't quite sure how to wrap this one up.  If your defense of the show is simply "that's just how it is", I fear you're not going to be very successful in convincing me otherwise.    

Being confusing does not always equal being intelligent.

addendum:  i mentioned it before in passing, but i am willing to ride it out and would be more than happy to be proven wrong by the final episodes.  if they can fulfill some of the promises that I felt they made in the beginning of the series about having a satisfactory conclusion that didn't fall back on "it's just a dream" or "it's heaven/hell/limbo", I'll be satisfied and immediately admit I was mistaken.

[Roguetad]

This was a disappointing episode for me simply because it wasn't very good television.  It just wasn't up to par with some of the better Lost episodes that had me engaged for 60 minutes, eager for more.  I found it boring, even the glowy cave reveal, which made me laugh out loud because I was immediately reminded of a log flume or amusement park ride/attraction.

I was surprised to find myself empathizing with the brother, but it was hard not to after watching the portrayal of Jacob as a naive simpleton, mommy sick for affection.  Was that the best they could do with the Jacob background?    

The Adam and Eve reveal was corny and made me laugh as I watched it play out.  They really lashed together that scene and made it feel awkward and goofy.  

The explanation of the wheel device cracked me up too.  Huh?  Oh, you're special.  Now I get it.  I felt like one of the writers channelled into the character at that exact moment with a cockamamie explanation for the wheel, and then vanished after he was busted by the crazy mom, leaving only a pathetic "because I'm special" explanation for the knowledge.

[th'FOOL]

If your defense of the show is simply "that's just how it is", I fear you're not going to be very successful in convincing me otherwise.  

Nope, not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying I can accept that not everything has to be spelled out for me and I enjoy filling in the blanks myself. I'm saying that's part of what makes Lost so appealing to me. In my head, the underlying logic of why things are happening is starting to fall into place, and that most of the puzzle pieces are there if you choose to look at them right.

[Bullwinkle]

I read that thing but I don't buy that she was the smoke monster for a second. If she was, how come she could get stabbed and die later in the episode? Her body was found by the Losties centuries later, further proving that it wasn't just a trick.

Sure, if she was JUST the smoke monster. I'm of the belief that the true guardianship of the island requires a unity of light and dark. The reason why things have gone awry is because that guardianship was split, giving the opportunity for one or the other to gain dominance or possibly eliminate it's counterpart, which is BAD. You cannot have light without darkness....

Very interesting though. You might have it figured out.

I now think that Murdering Mother was indeed Smokey. MIB was able to kill her because she didn't say anything before he stabbed her (why that would make any difference I don't have the slightest idea), like the Dogan/Sawyer thing. Smokey now seems to have MIB's over-arching need to leave the island.

I don't know...in other ways it just doesn't make sense unless Smokey was something other than he is now before MIB went through the Shining Sewer.

One thing that worries me: everyone died during this change in guardianship. That doesn't bode well for all the Losties except for the new Guardian.

Maybe that is exactly what happened.  If the smoke monster was in balance inside of Mom (checked by her light side).  Then it's gone way out of balance in MiB.  It could be that when Allison Janney died, the smoke monster went back home to the golden uterus, waiting for someone to claim it.

Odd that she never said how to claim it.  But perhaps this is the thing Jacob just inherently knows how to do (like MiB did with pre-backgammon).  Or maybe he gained that knowledge when he took over the guardianship.  I get that his motivation could simply have been that he knew something bad would happen if he put his brother in there, and he wanted something bad to happen to him.  However, I find it hard to believe that it was part of Mom's plan to have him do it, without some less-subtle coaching or knowledge that he would know what to do when the time came.

[hepcat]

If your defense of the show is simply "that's just how it is", I fear you're not going to be very successful in convincing me otherwise.  

Nope, not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying I can accept that not everything has to be spelled out for me and I enjoy filling in the blanks myself. I'm saying that's part of what makes Lost so appealing to me. In my head, the underlying logic of why things are happening is starting to fall into place, and that most of the puzzle pieces are there if you choose to look at them right.

I can accept things that aren't spelled out for me quite easily..when it's presented to me in a way that suggests there's some thought and reasoning behind it.  I just believe that this show hasn't presented me with anything that alludes to this being the case so far this season.  at some point "filling in the blanks for yourself" turns into "i'm writing this show for them".  you feel that threshold hasn't been crossed...i feel they're currently walking across it and turning to close the door behind them.  i hope they don't, however.

[LoneStarSpur]

Was MM really Smokey or could she just summon him up like Jacob/Ben could?

Maybe Jacob actually summoned Smokey to fill in the well and kill all the 'bad people' and that's why Smokey MIB, who got his human-like qualities by MIB passing through the Shining Sewer while still (presumably) alive, wants to kill Jacob.

Hard to believe that in 10 days it will all be over.

Spoiler for Hiden:

Some mag quotes the writers as saying the finale will have you crying and going WFT?

[Isgrimnur]

WTF is "WFT"?

[LoneStarSpur]

WTF is "WFT"?

Dyslexia strikes again! 

[Ironrod]

This is the absolute best interpretation of "across the sea" I've found. Pretty much agree with it 100%:

ttp://darkufo.blogspot.com/2010/05/things-i-noticed-across-sea-by-vozzek69.html

Great write-up. Thanks for the link.

I always hate finding out just how much went right over my head. 

Now I kind of wish I hadn't erased this episode.

[Maggot]

Wow I did not notice this at all

[CeeKay]

This is the absolute best interpretation of "across the sea" I've found. Pretty much agree with it 100%:

ttp://darkufo.blogspot.com/2010/05/things-i-noticed-across-sea-by-vozzek69.html

Great write-up. Thanks for the link.

I always hate finding out just how much went right over my head. 

Now I kind of wish I hadn't erased this episode.

abracadabra!

[CeeKay]

Wow I did not notice this at all

they were filming on the coast of Louisiana? 

[Creepy_Smell]

I didn't really catch that the fake mom was smokey until the end and after reading other forums. If you watch the beginning, the fake mom offers her hand and help to the pregnant one, which is what fake locke/smokey does to people.

Think the EP would have done better earlier on then this late in the show.

[EddieA]

Wow I did not notice this at all

I still didn't notice it - What is it that we're supposed to be seeing?

[TiLT]

Wow I did not notice this at all

I still didn't notice it - What is it that we're supposed to be seeing?

That he seems to dissolve in the water. Notice how black the water becomes.

[LoneStarSpur]

Cool image. I wonder how Sawyer knew. Or did he just suspect or just get lucky?

[TiLT]

Cool image. I wonder how Sawyer knew. Or did he just suspect or just get lucky?

Sawyer? Knew what?

[LoneStarSpur]

Cool image. I wonder how Sawyer knew. Or did he just suspect or just get lucky?

Sawyer? Knew what?

Sawyer told Jack specifically to push Locke into the water. Did Sawyer know something would happen to slow Locke down enough to give them time to get on the sub without Locke?

[EddieA]

Smokey told Sawyer that he couldn't just fly across the water, so Sawyer probably figured the water would do something bad to him.

[morlac]

Just got around to watching it last night.  I thought it was pretty good but could have been half an episode with the rest set in present day.  I really liked the 'game' metaphor.  They are pushing and manuavering dark and light stones around the game board trying to gain an upper hand over the other.  Just like in the 'real' world.  I think the line that was something like this was very interesting.... Jacob said "but you just made up the rules" and BIB (boy in black) says "Well when you get a game you can make up your own rules".  Also notice that they have been playing  this game for a long time and it appears that nobody ever wins.  could somebody finally win the game in the final episode?

I'm not sure the Mom is smokey monster.  I think Smokey monster is the yang to the golden light.  Light/dark, ying/yang, destiney/free will, religion/science.  They go hand in hand, hell they 'live' in the same cave .  The 'light' and the 'dark' both seem to have a 'mind' and try and influence those around them.  Quotes like "it's what the island wants' are referring to the 'light'. 

[morlac]

I think we can chalk that one up to "mistake."

I'm leaning more towards 'plan?  we don't need a plan yet!' 

From that episode....

Kate asks "How long have the bodies been here?"

Jack responds with empasis, "Long" - - "Clothing takes /at least/ forty to fifty years to deteriorate like this."


No mistakes made. 

[tgb]

Hepcat, you never watched The Prisoner (the original), did you?  And if you did, what did you think of they way it ended?

[hepcat]

Hepcat, you never watched The Prisoner (the original), did you?  And if you did, what did you think of they way it ended?

I only watched a few, so i can't speak with any authority on the integrity of the show's vision.  I know it's highly regarded, but whether this is due to a sense of nostalgia, because it was doing something new and different at a time where new and different was considered daring, or because it truly was visionary, I can't say.

I would cite Twin Peaks as my precedent.  It was a fantastically fun show that was heading to a great conclusion...until they realized that they had become a hit show and were asked to do a second season.  They scrambled to get the show extended by taking a lot of the plot points that were going to be answered in the season 1 finale and purposely made them vague, metaphysical clap trap in order to keep the show going.  I'm not saying that Lost should have ended after season 1, but I am saying that sometimes you can write yourself into a hole from which you can't escape using anything but "magic" and "spiritualism".  I see these two tools of the trade as being VERY difficult to pull off without becoming ridiculous.

Lost could deftly avoid that situation in the upcoming final episodes.  I just fear that's where they're going after seeing this last episode.

p.s. Don't get me wrong, I adore Twin Peaks for the quirky characters and goofy/dark humor it displayed.  I even sought out and purchased both seasons on DVD. But I view its conclusion as being mostly a failure due to the aforementioned issues.  I also enjoy a lot of Lynch's movies...but sometimes I think he views personal context as universal.

[tgb]

I only bring it up because the finale was so open to interpretation and ambiguous that Patrick McGoohan literally had to go into hiding for several weeks after it aired.  I can only what the outcry would have been like had the Intratubes existed at the time.

[hepcat]

I only bring it up because the finale was so open to interpretation and ambiguous that Patrick McGoohan literally had to go into hiding for several weeks after it aired.  I can only what the outcry would have been like had the Intratubes existed at the time.

"The clothes were definitely older than 50 years, Katefan23!"