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Author Topic: Lost finale is tonight!  (Read 3173 times)
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rittchard
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« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2008, 06:24:49 PM »

Quote from: disarm on June 02, 2008, 01:34:27 AM

Quote from: EddieA on June 02, 2008, 01:06:34 AM

Juliet identified Jin as the father based on the time of conception, not DNA, so she only knew the baby was conceived on the island.  With Jin and Michael both gone, though, I don't see any reason to start a paternity storyline.  As for Sun's pause, I think she was just uncertain of how to talk to someone who was once a friend, but is now a traitor and a murderer.

i really can't think of a single time that they even came close to suggesting that something happened between Sun and Michael.  the only other person they ever suggested as the father was that guy teaching her english that she had an affair with back in korea, but proving that she conceived on the island settled that matter in a way that seemed to convince Sun that Jin was the father.

It's funny because from season 1 (I think) I kept jokingly telling my friends that Michael was Sun's baby's father.  The "suggestion" came very early in the show when Michael sees Sun bathing and they share "a look" and the scene ends.  My friends hate it when I mention "a look" in the show because often enough they think it's just my imagination finding things where nothing exists.  Jin's excessive anger toward Michael in (I think the same episode) also goes to the thought that maybe more had transpired in the Michael/Sun "friendship" than was shown.  And in spite of all the shows dedicated to her saying the baby is Jin's, Sun ends each of her scenes with Jin with a wisftul "look" that implies she is still hiding/lying about something.  Her out of the blue comment to Michael in the finale just continues this bizarre thread, and frankly at this point, my theory is that it's just the actress herself playing it "soap opera style" to give people like me something to talk about.

- - -

Regarding the "alternate endings" - it wasn't much, just 2 different people in the coffin pan scene - Sawyer and Desmond. 
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Brendan
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« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2008, 06:46:43 PM »

Obligatory nerd thing:

So, once the episode started and they kept referencing "Jeremy Bentham", I knew that was a pseudonym for John Locke - Bentham was a British philsoopher influenced by Locke.  They were both rationalists.  Bentham's credited with utilitarianism, which essentially posits the principle that moral actions are those which maximize happiness.

More importantly, his stuffed body attends board meetings:

Quote
As requested in his will, his body was preserved and stored in a wooden cabinet, termed his "Auto-icon". Originally kept by his disciple Dr. Southwood Smith, it was acquired by University College London in 1850. The Auto-icon is kept on public display at the end of the South Cloisters in the main building of the College. For the 100th and 150th anniversaries of the college, the Auto-icon was brought to the meeting of the College Council, where he was listed as "present but not voting". Tradition holds that if the council's vote on any motion is tied, the auto-icon always breaks the tie by voting in favour of the motion.

The Auto-icon has always had a wax head, as Bentham's head was badly damaged in the preservation process. The real head was displayed in the same case for many years, but became the target of repeated pranks by King's College London students including being stolen on more than one occasion. It is now locked away securely.
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Moliere
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« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2008, 06:57:47 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on June 02, 2008, 06:46:43 PM

Obligatory nerd thing:

So, once the episode started and they kept referencing "Jeremy Bentham", I knew that was a pseudonym for John Locke - Bentham was a British philsoopher influenced by Locke.  They were both rationalists.  Bentham's credited with utilitarianism, which essentially posits the principle that moral actions are those which maximize happiness.


Thanks! I wondered what the name meant, but was too lazy to Google it.

Also, I would modify your definition of Utilitarianism to specify that its the group's happiness that is being maximized.
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« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2008, 07:03:01 PM »

Great point - it's not hedonism.  icon_smile
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gameoverman
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« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2008, 08:24:00 PM »

I loved this season so far, and this finale, but one thing bugs me:

I guessed that the Oceanic 6 were lying to protect the ones left behind BUT

As far as they knew everyone was blown up on that ship right?  Did I miss where someone told them "So and so and X number of people are still on that island"?

Someone faked the phony wreck, therefore NO survivors are ever expected to surface.  Therefore whoever faked that wreck has reason to prevent by any means necessary the reappearance of survivors-  okay, I get that.   But once the Oceanic 6 pop up and tell the truth, that reasoning is removed.   Now there is no reason to kill either the Oceanic 6 OR the ones left behind, if you are the guy who faked the whole thing.    Your secret is out, now it's all about trying to distance yourself from the fake as best you can.   In other words, the people who are dangerous to you now are your minions, the ones who actually carried out your orders.   They are the ones who can put you in jail if they ever cooperate with the authorities  So Jack's logic made no sense to me.

Lastly, a "things got real bad on the island" vague insinuation would not be enough to get me interested in going back, sorry.   That's the old style Lost approach.  For me to buy Jack being desperate to go back it needed to be INCREDIBLE.    Something like "Your dad is on the island, he told me to say XYZ to prove it",  XYZ being a message that would confirm his dad(alive or dead) had in fact talked to Locke, because it was something only Jack and his dad knew about.  That's just an example, but you know what I mean.

edit: I just realized that Sun knew who was where, so that's one thing to scratch off the list.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2008, 08:28:18 PM by gameoverman » Logged
YellowKing
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« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2008, 08:49:26 PM »

Quote
As far as they knew everyone was blown up on that ship right?  Did I miss where someone told them "So and so and X number of people are still on that island"?

They know Sawyer is on the island, at the very least. Kate obviously has an interest in rescuing him, and Jack promised Kate in the chopper that they would go back for him (obviously he meant after they got on the ship, but perhaps his love for Kate compels him to keep that promise even though the circumstances have grown decidedly more difficult). EDIT: Good call on Sun, yep she knows the location of Juliette, et al.

Quote
Someone faked the phony wreck, therefore NO survivors are ever expected to surface.  Therefore whoever faked that wreck has reason to prevent by any means necessary the reappearance of survivors-  okay, I get that.   But once the Oceanic 6 pop up and tell the truth, that reasoning is removed.   Now there is no reason to kill either the Oceanic 6 OR the ones left behind, if you are the guy who faked the whole thing.    Your secret is out, now it's all about trying to distance yourself from the fake as best you can.   In other words, the people who are dangerous to you now are your minions, the ones who actually carried out your orders.   They are the ones who can put you in jail if they ever cooperate with the authorities  So Jack's logic made no sense to me.

My feeling is that a person powerful enough to fake an airplane crash has little concern for the authorities or being put in jail.

Quote
Lastly, a "things got real bad on the island" vague insinuation would not be enough to get me interested in going back, sorry.   That's the old style Lost approach.  For me to buy Jack being desperate to go back it needed to be INCREDIBLE.    Something like "Your dad is on the island, he told me to say XYZ to prove it",  XYZ being a message that would confirm his dad(alive or dead) had in fact talked to Locke, because it was something only Jack and his dad knew about.  That's just an example, but you know what I mean.

Jack knows he made the wrong decision about leaving the island - he doesn't need Ben's confirmation. He had been trying to get back to the island via plane crash even before he talked to Ben. There's something else at work here - perhaps more of the Island's  "magic" that wouldn't allow Michael to die and seemed to shape Locke's destiny.

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rittchard
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« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2008, 09:17:44 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 04, 2008, 08:49:26 PM

Quote
Lastly, a "things got real bad on the island" vague insinuation would not be enough to get me interested in going back, sorry.   That's the old style Lost approach.  For me to buy Jack being desperate to go back it needed to be INCREDIBLE.    Something like "Your dad is on the island, he told me to say XYZ to prove it",  XYZ being a message that would confirm his dad(alive or dead) had in fact talked to Locke, because it was something only Jack and his dad knew about.  That's just an example, but you know what I mean.

Jack knows he made the wrong decision about leaving the island - he doesn't need Ben's confirmation. He had been trying to get back to the island via plane crash even before he talked to Ben. There's something else at work here - perhaps more of the Island's  "magic" that wouldn't allow Michael to die and seemed to shape Locke's destiny.

Well I think having creepy ghosts of dead people driving you insane would also be a motivator to go back smile

The interesting thing to me was just how long they (particularly Jack) fought/resisted the idea of going back (approx. 3 years).  I guess the idea is they are protecting whoever survived on the island by protecting the location and the knowledge of its existence.  Of course at this point we know they don't actually know how to get back, so possibly the other part of not trying to get back is having no idea how to go about it (aside from Jack's suicide attempts).  And why did it take Ben so long to make his move?  Was he teleported further forward in time?  I wasn't sure when his arrival was in terms of the overall timeline.
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morlac
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« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2008, 10:10:46 PM »

Regarding the concerns about the plane wreck:

Did they pull the plane up?  Or just send down a diver/submarine to confirm it was the correct one and had bodies in it?  I can't remember but if it's the later than the story the 6 spun would still allow for it not to be a 'faked' thing.  If that makes sense. retard
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gameoverman
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« Reply #48 on: June 05, 2008, 01:59:58 AM »

Some clarification on my questions:

My understanding of the finale is that Locke spoke to Jack and told him Jack must go back, not Ben.  Ben's contribution was merely to point out that they all had to return to be effective at whatever it is they hope to accomplish.  And Locke's message, his reason to go back, was "something bad happened on the island".

Yes Jack has been seeing things, but there is no reason for Jack to think going back to the island will fix that.   That's my point, I wished that we had been given more of an explanation of Jack's motive to go back.   In other words, what bad thing happened and how will Jack going back 'fix' it?   I understand why we, the audience, aren't given that info yet.  But shouldn't Jack, the character, have an inkling what going back will accomplish before he makes the decision to go back?

As to the guy covering up the airplane's location, Jack logic is the exact opposite of the stated goal.  Consider:

If the Oceanic 6 lie, this means the coverup can still work.  It makes sense for the bad guy to kill the ones left behind now.  Because he could kill them, place some of their bodies with the fake wreck, and no one will ever be the wiser.  The Oceanic 6 can't change their story since they have no evidence of what really happened.  The Oceanic 6 already know for a fact that the bad guys can find the island, since they already have at least once since the plane crashed.

If the Oceanic 6 tell the truth, then there is no reason for the ones left behind to be killed.  In fact, their chances improve since the authorities will certainly make a beeline for that island(or at least try).
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TiLT
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« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2008, 05:47:39 AM »

Jack had already decided, though he didn't want to admit it, that he wanted to stay on the island. This happened when he talked to Locke above the Orchid station.

Locke: "You KNOW, Jack! You know that you're here for a reason. You know it! And if you leave this place that knowledge is going to eat you alive, from the inside out. Until you decide to come back."

They then proceeded to talk about an upcoming miracle, and that if the miracle happened (moving the island), Jack would believe Locke. It turns out Jack didn't stay behind but instead left, and when the island disappeared later, he believed. He believed enough in what Locke had told him to convince everyone else to lie, as Locke had said to do.

In short, Jack didn't need much prodding to be convinced to go back. The mere appearance of Locke in civilization was probably all that was necessary. Jack is now likely to be Locke's latest disciple.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2008, 02:26:18 PM »

Quote from: morlac on June 04, 2008, 10:10:46 PM

Regarding the concerns about the plane wreck:

Did they pull the plane up?  Or just send down a diver/submarine to confirm it was the correct one and had bodies in it?  I can't remember but if it's the later than the story the 6 spun would still allow for it not to be a 'faked' thing.  If that makes sense. retard


I don't think they pulled it up.  I seem to remember them saying it was down too deep on one of the news casts.

I thought about it last night, and now I'm really curious where they're going to go with the next season.  are they just going to jump ahead 3 years and start doing flashbacks to show what happened to everyone during those 3 years?  In a way doing so would make senes, because the actors have been aging a lot quicker than time passed in the story.  I'm guessing they go back to find Sawyer hooked up with Juliet.....

February better get here quick!
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