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Author Topic: Lance Armstrong to be charged with doping by USADA  (Read 3986 times)
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Roman
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« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2012, 06:46:36 PM »

his teammate here admits to doping and that it was accepted on the team:
http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/1268990--michael-barry-canadian-cyclist-admits-to-doping

I agree that there would be no 'hard evidance' showing results of tests - but the report does include testimony like I posted above and emails with statements etc.
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« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2012, 01:09:50 PM »

Quote from: ATB on October 10, 2012, 05:06:41 PM


I mean his brand will be secure because no matter what happens, most people will still believe he didn't cheat.

There's enough doubt out there about the bias of the USADA that he'll pretty much remain with his good name, depending on how you see it.



Well you blew that. Nike has dropped him and he's booted as chairman from Livestrong.
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« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2012, 01:31:13 PM »

It's funny how USADA is spinning this to make the cyclists the bad guys instead of condemning the sport itself.  Almost everybody was doping, so why go after Armstrong with such vitriol?  I say that as someone who is no fan of Armstrong.  I have yet to hear a single good thing about the guy from anybody who has met or dealt with him, but the amount of effort used to discredit him is insane.  Is USADA going to go after all the other cyclists who never tested negative with such force?  What a screwjob. 
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« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2012, 01:42:06 PM »

Quote from: McNutt on October 17, 2012, 01:31:13 PM

It's funny how USADA is spinning this to make the cyclists the bad guys instead of condemning the sport itself.  Almost everybody was doping, so why go after Armstrong with such vitriol?  I say that as someone who is no fan of Armstrong.  I have yet to hear a single good thing about the guy from anybody who has met or dealt with him, but the amount of effort used to discredit him is insane.  Is USADA going to go after all the other cyclists who never tested negative with such force?  What a screwjob. 

It is precisely the fact that everyone was, and probably still is, doping that makes them go hard after the cyclist. They *have* to set an example, and Armstrong is probably the best damn example out there.
Personally, I'd have banned someone like Riis from ever participating in any way as well, but thats just because I have a zero tolerance policy towards drugs.

In my opinion, the sport has become a joke - Its widely accepted that everyone drugs themselves before a race, and thats rather problemetic for someone wanting to be taken seriously as a competitive sport.

I hope they can get away from that, and show that once more Cycling is worthy of being a sport, but its going to take a long time and a lot of hard work to convince the public that they are running on their own fuel, so to speak.
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« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2012, 02:16:25 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on October 17, 2012, 01:42:06 PM

It is precisely the fact that everyone was, and probably still is, doping that makes them go hard after the cyclist. They *have* to set an example, and Armstrong is probably the best damn example out there.

I disagree.  Lance wasn't the problem, the sport was.  There were so many cyclists doping and not getting caught that the only way to succeed was to dope as well.  I'm not saying that's right, but it's the truth.  Armstrong didn't win simply because he cheated, but because he was better than everybody else even though they were cheating too. 

The sport and the testing failed, but instead of blaming the system they decided to destroy one man.  The sport was so bad that the only way to compete was to cheat.  USADA doesn't go after everybody and try to ban them, but instead focuses on one person as their golden prize.  What kind of influence did they use to get people to testify against him?  They're not trying to clean up a sport.  They're trying to hurt someone who beat them.  They failed and are going to exact vengeance.  F@ck USADA. 
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leo8877
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« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2012, 02:34:00 PM »

When Nike drops you, you know it's bad.
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rshetts2
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« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2012, 03:13:59 PM »

Quote from: ATB on October 17, 2012, 01:09:50 PM

Quote from: ATB on October 10, 2012, 05:06:41 PM


I mean his brand will be secure because no matter what happens, most people will still believe he didn't cheat.

There's enough doubt out there about the bias of the USADA that he'll pretty much remain with his good name, depending on how you see it.



Well you blew that. Nike has dropped him and he's booted as chairman from Livestrong.

Actually, he stepped down as chairman of Livestrong, he wasnt booted.  Clearly, this controversy has made his chairmanship detrimental to the charity and stepping down was the right choice but he hasnt been kicked to the curb either as he still remains on the charity's board and will be speaking at Livestrongs 15th anniversary gala on Friday. 

Regarding his titles, what are they going to do now cede them to the next guy in line and then investigate him for doping?  At least there are attorneys that can benefit from this because if the reports are true then they wont be able to find a legitimate cyclist to actually bestow those titles to.   In the end they may have been better served to recognize the competitive balance issues that the entire sport is responsible for, asterisk the titles and then get on with cleaning up the sport.  Instead they decided to bring down the most visible athlete in the sport, as vindictively as possible, in hopes of creating enough uproar to distract people from the real issue.  In the end, I believe this move will not help the sport but damage it possibly beyond repair.  After all when they have no tests that prove doping and 100's that refute it, if you believe doping was and is that pervasive, then where is the problem really?   Is it Armstrong or is it the sport in general?
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« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2012, 07:42:32 PM »

The Frenchies already said that there will be no winner for those years.
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« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2012, 08:47:18 PM »

If he was the most tested athlete ever, how the hell could he have duped the system for that long?  The entire testing process would have had to be corrupt from the mailroom to the top!
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« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2012, 11:12:19 PM »

Quote from: leo8877 on October 17, 2012, 08:47:18 PM

If he was the most tested athlete ever, how the hell could he have duped the system for that long?  The entire testing process would have had to be corrupt from the mailroom to the top!

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« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2012, 12:32:03 AM »

Quote from: Arclight on October 17, 2012, 11:12:19 PM

Quote from: leo8877 on October 17, 2012, 08:47:18 PM

If he was the most tested athlete ever, how the hell could he have duped the system for that long?  The entire testing process would have had to be corrupt from the mailroom to the top!

Everyone has a price. If you have the cash.

But the ENTIRE system, all at once? 
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« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2012, 12:37:26 AM »

Dd they have the test to find his particular method back then? If there was no reliable test, then it wouldn't matter how many times he was checked.
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PeteRock
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« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2012, 02:32:49 AM »

This article seems to talk a little about how Armstrong managed to dupe the world.

I can't remember the last time I was so disappointed by a person's character.   icon_frown
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« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2012, 02:03:00 PM »

Quote from: leo8877 on October 18, 2012, 12:32:03 AM

Quote from: Arclight on October 17, 2012, 11:12:19 PM

Quote from: leo8877 on October 17, 2012, 08:47:18 PM

If he was the most tested athlete ever, how the hell could he have duped the system for that long?  The entire testing process would have had to be corrupt from the mailroom to the top!

Everyone has a price. If you have the cash.

But the ENTIRE system, all at once? 

The mailroom guy isn't doing the test.  It only takes one guy.
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« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2012, 02:46:41 PM »

The real question about bicycle racing is does ANYBODY not use drugs, dope blood, etc.? I mean, if the tests are apparently so relatively easy to circumvent, and basically 100% of the people racing are doing it, what's the point? That's assuming Armstrong never failed a test because he is in fact a diabolical genius blood doper who managed to use umpteen tricks and subterfuge to get around it and taught everyone else in pro bike racing how to do the same.

Armstrong may well be in fact just that -- but retroactively taking away all of his tour victories and banning him doesn't alone clean up the sport.

Maybe they should just shut down the whole sport of professional bike racing entirely and try to get their ducks in a row about testing, instead of trying to basically fix the sport while it's in motion. If the sport has basically just become about "who can dope better," if there's simply no way to precisely test for that because people can get around it or fake it etc. so easily, then what's the point of continuing it in its current form? It's a joke. It's a farce. Shut it down, talk to some scientists and researchers, and see if there's a reasonable way to make the sport clean again. imho. from a non-biker.
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« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2012, 03:05:21 PM »

They are all cheaters. He was just better than everyone else at it.   If he did something criminal then let him be prosecuted, but I wish people would just leave dude alone. 
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« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2012, 03:06:24 PM »

If 100% of the racers are doping, doesn't that make it an even playing field and Lance still the winner?
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« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2012, 03:16:15 PM »

Quote from: Soulchilde on October 18, 2012, 03:05:21 PM

They are all cheaters. He was just better than everyone else at it.   If he did something criminal then let him be prosecuted, but I wish people would just leave dude alone. 

+1  It is just a silly witch hunt.  I can't see any practical value to it.



Quote from: Bullwinkle on October 18, 2012, 03:06:24 PM

If 100% of the racers are doping, doesn't that make it an even playing field and Lance still the winner?

That seems like a logical argument.
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« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2012, 03:26:42 PM »

So Nike drops Armstrong, but keeps Tiger Woods?  Oy.
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« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2012, 04:10:24 PM »

Quote from: Laner on October 18, 2012, 03:26:42 PM

So Nike drops Armstrong, but keeps Tiger Woods?  Oy.

Well, one of them violated the 'integrity' of the sport and nike is about sports. The other just cheated on his wife. They're not about wives.

It's how the world works.
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« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2012, 04:50:21 PM »

I imagine that the Trek executives are probably crying somewhere.  Lance was a huge reason why their road bikes were so popular, particularly the Madone line.  Afaik, Trek hasn't dropped him. 

Nevermind, I just checked and they dropped him yesterday.  His sponsors can't jump ship fast enough. 
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« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2012, 06:00:11 PM »

Quote from: farley2k on October 18, 2012, 03:16:15 PM

Quote from: Soulchilde on October 18, 2012, 03:05:21 PM

They are all cheaters. He was just better than everyone else at it.   If he did something criminal then let him be prosecuted, but I wish people would just leave dude alone. 

+1  It is just a silly witch hunt.  I can't see any practical value to it.



Quote from: Bullwinkle on October 18, 2012, 03:06:24 PM

If 100% of the racers are doping, doesn't that make it an even playing field and Lance still the winner?

That seems like a logical argument.


No because apparently doping affect different people differently. Some people get more of a benefit from it than others. I saw this in an article that I can't find now but if I can dig it up I'll post a link.
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« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2012, 06:10:48 PM »

You never see this shit in professional Chess Macramé.
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« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2012, 06:11:48 PM »

This took me longer to post than it did to find. 
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« Reply #64 on: November 18, 2012, 09:20:39 PM »

NPR recently put out a podcast on the USADA report and the doping allegations against Armstrong.  I'm still not sure about his guilt/innocence, but it's an interesting listen.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2012/11/16/165308529/episode-417-lance-armstrong-and-the-business-of-doping
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« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2012, 04:28:59 AM »

I am a big fan of Planet Money, but that wasn't a very thorough report. They act like doping is on the decline, but there is no reason to believe it is. I unfortunately missed this years Tour, but it seems quite normal for riders to get caught still. We really have no idea what is going on in cycling today as far as drug use, let's not pretend that the corruption left the sport with Lance.

Doping or not, I can't wait for 2013's Tour.
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« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2013, 12:26:56 AM »

confession incoming?
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« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2013, 03:23:00 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on January 15, 2013, 12:26:56 AM


We'll get to see Thursday.  What a crock this whole thing has become.  What happens to all the lawsuits for libel he won?
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« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2013, 04:16:25 AM »

What a self-made mess that he got himself in. I'd feel bad for the guy if he wasn't such a lying hypocrite. I would much rather have rooted on a drug-free athlete who doesn't always win than some cheater with zero integrity and 7 bogus jerseys.
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« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2013, 04:33:50 AM »

Quote from: Suitably Ironic Moniker on January 15, 2013, 04:16:25 AM

I would much rather have rooted on a drug-free athlete who doesn't ever win than some cheater with zero integrity and 7 bogus jerseys.

His name is Clyde Finaker and he works in the Walmart in Paramus.
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« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2013, 05:37:31 AM »

I got a couple Armstrong books from the library a few years back. My wife completed one and encouraged me to read the other.

I got through about three chapters and couldn't take anymore. The most self absorbed piece of crap put in print.

When rumors later started circulating about doping,I was totally convinced. Not surprised in the least with this.

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« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2013, 01:50:27 PM »

This morning it was saying on the news that Lance Armstrong had come clean in the interview he did with Oprah Winfrey,however the ticker bar is now saying that he "did not come clean in the manner she expected"
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« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2013, 02:50:10 PM »

Quote from: metallicorphan on January 15, 2013, 01:50:27 PM

This morning it was saying on the news that Lance Armstrong had come clean in the interview he did with Oprah Winfrey,however the ticker bar is now saying that he "did not come clean in the manner she expected"

I am guessing he is going to never say he did it exactly, just that everyone in cycling dopes implying that he did as well.

As a huge Tour de France fan, I really don't care anymore. I just assume they all dope, and I am ok with that, I guess.
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« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2013, 06:47:22 PM »

I would guess that anyone finishing in the top 10 of cycling events consistently is doping something.  Just the nature of the sport ala Nascar.
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« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2013, 06:53:04 PM »

Quote from: morlac on January 15, 2013, 06:47:22 PM

Just the nature of the sport ala Nascar.

?
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« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2013, 07:07:28 PM »

Quote from: ATB on January 15, 2013, 06:53:04 PM

Quote from: morlac on January 15, 2013, 06:47:22 PM

Just the nature of the sport ala Nascar.

?

http://nascar.about.com/od/teams/a/punishcheats.htm

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/vintage-speed/top-nascar-engineering-cheats
http://machinedesign.com/article/how-to-cheat-in-nascar-1023

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/shortcuts/2012/jul/15/scandalous-history-tour-de-france


Essentially, the best teams all cheat.  The sport has a long history of it.  Constant game off circumventing the latest rules/test.  
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« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2013, 12:14:32 AM »

Same could be said about all top level motorsport really.  F1 is all about it.  It's part of the game.

Then again these are mechanical devices we are talking about and not human beings.
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« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2013, 12:55:20 AM »

Quote from: gellar on January 16, 2013, 12:14:32 AM

Same could be said about all top level motorsport really.  F1 is all about it.  It's part of the game.

Then again these are mechanical devices we are talking about and not human beings.

I could dope, even in my cycling prime, and still struggle to do one mountain stage of the Tour.
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« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2013, 01:30:12 AM »

Quote from: Lee on January 16, 2013, 12:55:20 AM

Quote from: gellar on January 16, 2013, 12:14:32 AM

Same could be said about all top level motorsport really.  F1 is all about it.  It's part of the game.

Then again these are mechanical devices we are talking about and not human beings.

I could dope, even in my cycling prime, and still struggle to do one mountain stage of the Tour.

And?  I could break every F1 rule in the game and yet to field a car that would start or run, even if I was an engineer.  I'm not sure what your point is (but am genuinely curious).
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« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2013, 02:10:15 AM »

F1 is all about money. Rich teams win.

I am not defending cycling, it's a corrupt sport, but these guys are great athletes that do what even an amateur couldn't do with drugs. While I dislike doping in the sport, it's been at the point (for decades now) where doping is part of the sport to get the edge. Lance is worse than most because of is bitter denial, but that is only because he got away with it for so long and actually won. For me, as silly as it may be, I will still watch because of the spectacle, doping or not.

My point, in the end, is F1 isn't really a good comparison.
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