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Author Topic: Katrina: Bush and the administration were explicitly warned  (Read 2478 times)
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Farscry
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« on: March 02, 2006, 02:28:15 PM »

Let him try lying his way out of this one

I watched the video this morning and am angry beyond measure.  I thought the Katrina problem was just an example of incompetency on all sides.  Turns out Bush was blatantly and brazenly lying when he said that no one could have imagined the scope of this.   :evil:

Angry beyond measure.  I don't even know what else to say to rant about this.

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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2006, 02:31:46 PM »

Yeah, its pretty freaking bad.   I'm curious to how this will play out.  The Republican party has been taking quite a beating here lately.  


It kind of does my liberal heart proud that they are taking a sound thumping
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2006, 02:51:48 PM »

Yikes that is pretty damning.

Well we'll always have the war on terror right?   :oops:
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2006, 03:15:52 PM »

So he probably could have stopped the storm?

I don't understand - You, me, Bush, Gore, Mike Modano, Marcus Allen and Paula Abdul all knew what could happen in the days leading up to the storm.

Ray Nagen and the govt of LA is as much to blame as anyone in this, but it's not as trendy as blaming Bush.

I expect to be put in my place and told I don't understand.
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2006, 03:23:29 PM »

Quote
I watched the video this morning and am angry beyond measure. I thought the Katrina problem was just an example of incompetency on all sides. Turns out Bush was blatantly and brazenly lying when he said that no one could have imagined the scope of this.


You took the words right out of my mouth.  That's probably for the best -- I don't think I can discuss this topic in a calm or reasonable way at the moment.

I know this will probably get me shouted down as a "Bush hater," but I really, honestly, urgently *HATE* the fact that an American president can go on national television to cover his own ass by telling bald-faced lies to the American people, and *nothing* is going to happen about it.

-Autistic Angel
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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2006, 03:43:30 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
So he probably could have stopped the storm?

I don't understand - You, me, Bush, Gore, Mike Modano, Marcus Allen and Paula Abdul all knew what could happen in the days leading up to the storm.

Ray Nagen and the govt of LA is as much to blame as anyone in this, but it's not as trendy as blaming Bush.

I expect to be put in my place and told I don't understand.


Devil the problem is that our President has been lying to the American people for quite sometime and getting away with it.  If this has happened under President Clinton's watch then the Republican party would be trying to impeach him.


President Bush has been caught lying to the American people on several occasion and NOTHING has been done to him.  They tried to impeach President Clinton for getting a hummer in his office from a porky intern imagine if he lead us into a War in Iraq on the pretense that they had WMD or that he authorized the wiretapping of American citizens without the consent of the Courts?  Republicans would have crucified President Clinton, but fail to do that for  our current President.

We seriously need a serious third party to balance out the Democrats and Republicans, but thats a different discussion for another day
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2006, 04:01:52 PM »

Why does it always have to be the fault of the President?

Where does local gorvernment come into play?  They sure as hell could have said "Hey this storm looks like it may be really bad, get out of town"  or god forbid common sense.  Hey uh this storm out in the gulf looks bigger than anything in my lifetime maybe I should get out of town for a few days.

I think government at all levels screwed up.
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2006, 04:50:36 PM »

Heh.. ok... That wasnt the whole video it was bits and pieces... How long was this whole thing the guy did, was it 5 mins, was it an hour?

Where in that did he go: This will probably be a disaster of epic porportions....  

He said (more or less): There is a chance for a large loss of life, I am worried...  Which well can be said for anything that occurs.  I mean yes Bush was warned and yes he is an idiot, but you can not put the whole blame of what happened on 1 man, no matter how much you would like to.

If I had lived in new orleans, and I had seen "Hurricane coming, please evacuate or you may die."  I don't think I'd stick around to see if they were right.

So many things are wrong with on so many levels it's absolutely stupid to try and play the blame game.
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2006, 05:13:27 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
So he probably could have stopped the storm?

I don't understand - You, me, Bush, Gore, Mike Modano, Marcus Allen and Paula Abdul all knew what could happen in the days leading up to the storm.

Ray Nagen and the govt of LA is as much to blame as anyone in this, but it's not as trendy as blaming Bush.

I expect to be put in my place and told I don't understand.


Funny enough I'll be standing there next to you. While I haven't watched the video yet, I don't need to see it to know there were grossly incompetent failings across all levels. But let's please share some of the blame with Louisiana being the most corrupt hole in the union. slywink
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2006, 05:19:04 PM »

I think the problem is more that the video shows Bush being caught covering his ass: "Um.... geee... no one ever could have guessed it would be that bad ya know?"

Instead of that crap how about this: "We had good information the day before that this was going to be one of the worst storms ever.  We attempted to mobilize our federal and state resources to prevent as much damage and loss of life as possible.  In many important ways we failed.  We will be aggressively investigating the government's response and you can expect a report that outlines where we dropped the ball and our plan to ensure that we are better prepared next time."
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2006, 05:23:35 PM »

One of the guys on the video said "I think this is the Big One".

None of us (the people angry about this) are saying that the government caused the storm, or failed to stop it (how the f*** do you stop a hurricane?), or that the state and local governments were all perfect and wonderful and everything was the fault of the administration.

What we ARE saying is two things:

1)  The administration royally dropped the ball with federal disaster response.  On a level of high incompetence.  The state did too, as did the city.  With so much warning time, they (all government levels) should've been busing people out of the city in the days before the storm hit.

2)  The president has now been shown as blatantly lying when he said that no one could have predicted that this would be such a disaster.  Watch the video.  Yes, it's primarily snippets, and I'd love to see the full thing, but even the snippets show that the president and administration were made aware of just how severe this was likely going to be.


This isn't just some political debate to me.  This is the city I grew up in, where I still have a lot of family left.  My uncle and one of his sons are both in the NOPD, and another cousin of mine is an EMT, all of them were in that city throughout the disaster doing what they could to help out.  This was personal to me.  With their insight, I'm fully aware of the failures on all levels of government.

And for the president to brazenly lie to me and the rest of America to try to save face is more insulting than I can put to words.  I figured at the time that he really was just that ignorant of the situation beforehand (that's not a good thing either), but now I've seen that I gave him too much of a benefit of the doubt.
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Farscry
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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2006, 05:25:31 PM »

Quote from: "warning"
Instead of that crap how about this: "We had good information the day before that this was going to be one of the worst storms ever.  We attempted to mobilize our federal and state resources to prevent as much damage and loss of life as possible.  In many important ways we failed.  We will be aggressively investigating the government's response and you can expect a report that outlines where we dropped the ball and our plan to ensure that we are better prepared next time."


That I could have accepted.  Own up to the problem and making a concerted effort to fix.  Nagin and Blanco both need to do this as well.
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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2006, 10:14:58 PM »

Quote
how the f*** do you stop a hurricane?),


There was a government program many years ago, forgot what it was called though, that tried to do just that. They dropped something in the hurricanes that was supposed to slow it down but without getting any results, the program was dropped.
Did a quick search for it on yahoo but nothing came up. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

There are plenty of links with theories on stopping hurricanes which are always interesting to read, but it always comes down to "Actions speak louder than words".

I think Bush is more concerned about Iraq than he is his own country anyway.
Look at how long it took him to admit up to the intelligence being "wrong" while all that time after the war he kept trying to defend it with WMD lies. He finally caved in. I don't see him owning up to his failure to act in advance on Hurricane Katrina either.
What continues to bother me is how many billions upon billions of our tax dollars that we're wasting in Iraq when that money could have been helping out New Orleans or for that matter, helping out all the problems we've got here already.

Bush is a liar pure and simple, and IMO, doesn't deserve to be our president as he continues to prove through his actions (and lack of) again and again.
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« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2006, 02:15:28 AM »

Towards the end of the video, the meteorologist Max Mayfield says that he has no idea "if the levees will be topped or not."  That's a huge difference between the levees being breached.  Mayfield seems to indicate he's not sure if water will go over the levees.  He says nothing about the levees being breached.
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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2006, 02:43:24 AM »

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Towards the end of the video, the meteorologist Max Mayfield says that he has no idea "if the levees will be topped or not." That's a huge difference between the levees being breached. Mayfield seems to indicate he's not sure if water will go over the levees. He says nothing about the levees being breached.


Hey, that looks like fun!  Let me try:

During one of the briefings, Michael Brown talks in-depth about how the New Orleans' primary shelter is going to be the Superdome.  However, at no point does he say that it's going to be used to shelter *people.*  Therefore, when he said three days after Katrina that he was just learning about the humanitarian crisis there for the first time, we can't technically prove that he was lying.

Whee!

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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2006, 03:18:49 AM »

Quote
Bush is a liar pure and simple, and IMO, doesn't deserve to be our president as he continues to prove through his actions (and lack of) again and again.


Who does? Enlighten me. Who DESERVES the job?
I'm thinking the guy who won the election does deserve to be president. That's how this joint works.

We've all lived through presidents, senators, reps that we don't like (or even hate) but I'm all for letting the people decide.

Quote
I think Bush is more concerned about Iraq than he is his own country anyway.


Do you really belive this? I mean really? Would that mean that Clinton was more concerned with getting blown than this country? Kennedy is more concerned with getting drunk than his state?

I'm not a big fan of either of those guys, but I'm kinda under the assumption that they actually weren't trying to constantly screw up. That's the way they are. Kinda like Drew Bledsoe. I don't think he WANTS to suck, he just does. Anyway, I've lived through 2 of them (if you include Drew) and as for Teddy, I suck it up and deal with it. People keep throwing him back in office and like I said before, that's how it works.

Now don't get all 'unbreakable' on me!  :wink:
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« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2006, 07:31:10 AM »

When the going gets rough... the tough go on vacation!

Go Bush!

PS. the fact that they recently told investigators this information didnt exist, but now leak it to counter the claim that Bush isn't involved in the operation of the government... GOLDEN!

Oh, Rupert!  Hoisted by my own petard!
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« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2006, 01:19:26 PM »

Welcome back, break!
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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2006, 01:50:46 PM »

Quote from: "Devil"
Kinda like Drew Bledsoe. I don't think he WANTS to suck, he just does.


I have nothing to add to the political debate, but had to say that that quote is sheer genius.
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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2006, 02:12:32 PM »

Quote from: "Autistic Angel"
Quote
Towards the end of the video, the meteorologist Max Mayfield says that he has no idea "if the levees will be topped or not." That's a huge difference between the levees being breached. Mayfield seems to indicate he's not sure if water will go over the levees. He says nothing about the levees being breached.


Hey, that looks like fun!  Let me try:

During one of the briefings, Michael Brown talks in-depth about how the New Orleans' primary shelter is going to be the Superdome.  However, at no point does he say that it's going to be used to shelter *people.*  Therefore, when he said three days after Katrina that he was just learning about the humanitarian crisis there for the first time, we can't technically prove that he was lying.

Whee!

-Autistic Angel


The difference though is that the levies being breached is significantly different from the levies being overtopped. Overtopping would have resulted in localized flooding; breaches resulted in widespread devastation. Let me put it another way: overtopping would have resulted in a couple feet of water in certain areas that could be pumped out in a couple days, while breaches resulted in 6-8 feet of water standing for about 10 days. A couple feet of water over a 24 hour period can be fixed relatively quickly and home contents are mostly salvageable. OTOH, long standing water which reaches the ceiling of a house results in complete gutting and the the loss of 95% of the contents.

The Corps of Engineers is the most significant culprit for levy breaches.
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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2006, 02:57:54 PM »

Quote from: "Poleaxe"
The difference though is that the levies being breached is significantly different from the levies being overtopped. Overtopping would have resulted in localized flooding; breaches resulted in widespread devastation.

Quote from: "Poleaxe"
The Corps of Engineers is the most significant culprit for levy breaches.

This is absolutely true.

Though in no way does it excuse Bush for lying, which is a separate issue and what I posted the topic on.  slywink
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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2006, 03:08:14 PM »

Quote from: "Farscry_Redux"


Though in no way does it excuse Bush for lying, which is a separate issue and what I posted the topic on.  slywink


Bush says:"I don't think anyone expected the breaching of the levies." Mayfield talks about levies overtopping. This may seem like the definition of what 'is' is, but in my last post I was trying to show that there is a significant difference between the two.
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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2006, 08:17:07 PM »

Oh baby, can you smell it?  On the edge of your senses, closing in?  

IMPEACHMENT, mother fuckers, it's on it's way to save the day.
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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2006, 08:23:57 PM »

Why don't people start calling a duck a duck?

"President Bush doesn't care about black people."
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« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2006, 08:51:28 PM »

I'm just not that optimistic that he'll be impeached, LE.  frown  Though he sure as heck deserves it at this point.
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« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2006, 09:19:48 PM »

Impeached for what?  List any "high crimes and misdemeanors" and evidence to back it up.  Please be more specific than "BUSH LIED!  BUSH SUCKS!"
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« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2006, 09:33:55 PM »

Quote from: "Graham"
Impeached for what?  List any "high crimes and misdemeanors" and evidence to back it up.  Please be more specific than "BUSH LIED!  BUSH SUCKS!"


They tried to impeachment President Clinton for getting a hummer, so anything is possible
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« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2006, 09:35:08 PM »

Quote from: "tru1cy"
Quote from: "Graham"
Impeached for what?  List any "high crimes and misdemeanors" and evidence to back it up.  Please be more specific than "BUSH LIED!  BUSH SUCKS!"


They tried to impeachment President Clinton for getting a hummer, so anything is possible

Actually perjury.
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« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2006, 11:33:12 PM »

So in other words, it's ok for Bush to lie constantly, because he makes sure he is never under oath when he does it.

That makes sense.
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« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2006, 12:29:01 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
So in other words, it's ok for Bush to lie constantly, because he makes sure he is never under oath when he does it.

That makes sense.

You hit the nail on the head. Actually, Im pretty sure Bush can prove everything has done is legal because he probably has a secret order drawn up somewhere that says so.

Congress are a bunch of cowards who are too pussy to challenge this president on any of this. Congress could put this president's balls in a sling tomorrow. President can make order after order but its the congress that passes the budgets. All they have to do is cut the budget to some of his projects. Its really that simple. So why hasn't this happened??? HMMMM. Ever wonder about that?

(My opinion is WE DON'T MATTER)
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« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2006, 12:57:39 AM »

Food for thought...


AP FRIDAY NIGHT CLARIFICATION ON BUSH/KATRINA VIDEO
Fri Mar 03 2006 19:48:29 ET

Clarification: Katrina-Video story
ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON (AP) _ In a March 1 story, The Associated Press reported that federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees in New Orleans, citing confidential video footage of an Aug. 28 briefing among U.S. officials.

The Army Corps of Engineers considers a breach a hole developing in a levee rather than an overrun. The story should have made clear that Bush was warned about floodwaters overrunning the levees, rather than the levees breaking.

The day before the storm hit, Bush was told there were grave concerns that the levees could be overrun. It wasn't until the next morning, as the storm was hitting, that Michael Brown, then head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said Bush had inquired about reports of breaches. Bush did not participate in that briefing.
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« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2006, 01:43:17 AM »

It seems to me their preparations were insufficient for ANY eventuality, even if it had been a 'mere' overrunning of the levees.  They did nothing for FIVE days, Bush had a fun ol' time playing guitar, Cheney did whatever he does in his undisclosed location (eating babies?), and Princess Spamalot went shoe shopping.

Sounds like everyone was in vacation mode, and didnt feel anything important needed doing.  The fact that they just blamed everything on the state and local authorities was adding insult to injury.
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« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2006, 01:47:31 AM »

Quote from: "Scoop20906"
Congress are a bunch of cowards who are too pussy to challenge this president on any of this. Congress could put this president's balls in a sling tomorrow. President can make order after order but its the congress that passes the budgets. All they have to do is cut the budget to some of his projects. Its really that simple. So why hasn't this happened??? HMMMM. Ever wonder about that?

(My opinion is WE DON'T MATTER)


This is just my opinion, but it isnt that Congress is full of cowards.  Congress is full of people bought and paid for.  IMO, our nation has been usurped, and by an agenda which is not only inept and corrupt, but one which is looking to sell America to the highest bidder.

Does selling US Ports, the weakest link in entering this country, to a nation with ties to terrorism make ANY sense?  The only way it could possibly make any sense is if the White House is actively working against this country.  If anyone has a better explaination, feel free to suggest it- this just makes no sense otherwise.
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« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2006, 03:23:59 AM »

Quote from: "unbreakable"
So in other words, it's ok for Bush to lie constantly, because he makes sure he is never under oath when he does it.

That makes sense.


Specifics.  All you are doing is repeating talking points.
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« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2006, 04:05:54 AM »

Quote from: "Graham"
Impeached for what?  List any "high crimes and misdemeanors" and evidence to back it up.  Please be more specific than "BUSH LIED!  BUSH SUCKS!"
Fraud.  I think there's a couple kinds, but you'd have to ask a lawyer to get the specific mumbo jumbo.

But I guess you can file that under 'BUSH LIED.'  Proceed to keep the fingers in your ears, etc.

I am happy to see one of the noble 36% (and falling!) still reporting in, though.
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« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2006, 05:28:12 AM »

Quote from: "-Lord Ebonstone-"
Quote from: "Graham"
Impeached for what?  List any "high crimes and misdemeanors" and evidence to back it up.  Please be more specific than "BUSH LIED!  BUSH SUCKS!"
Fraud.  I think there's a couple kinds, but you'd have to ask a lawyer to get the specific mumbo jumbo.

But I guess you can file that under 'BUSH LIED.'  Proceed to keep the fingers in your ears, etc.

I am happy to see one of the noble 36% (and falling!) still reporting in, though.

That 36% was a bogus poll heavily weighted by a Democrat sample.  Any statistician who would take that poll seriously would be laughed off the planet.  Then again, what do you expect by a TV network that created false documents shortly before an election.
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« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2006, 06:37:32 AM »

Yes, we know.  The entire world is a conspiracy created just to hold back the moral champions in the Bush family.
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