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Author Topic: Is WW3 inevitable?  (Read 2175 times)
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Raven
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« on: June 30, 2005, 07:30:43 PM »

China is becoming an economic powerhouse, due to free trade, and seem to be building up for a showdown over Taiwan.

Iran's new president is already whipping Muslims into a frenzy, and Russia is insanely offering to help develop their nuclear program.

NK is controlled by a nut, and their nuclear program is going strong.

Pakastan and India both have nukes, and hate each other.

I'm no longer sure that a major nuclear war can be avoided. Anyone who thinks that the US will take a direct WMD attack, and not respond by attacking China, NK, and Iran are fooling themselves.
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Andrew Mallon
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2005, 07:32:28 PM »

You're kind of a 'glass is half-empty' guy, aren't you? slywink
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Raven
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2005, 07:36:23 PM »

Exhibit One

Exhibit Two
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Daehawk
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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2005, 08:23:18 PM »

Wont be long before I can start my own Mad Max gang and take over this area.
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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2005, 08:26:51 PM »

I'm convinced that in the not too distant future China will be the dominant country, as the US is now.  However, I don't see any major war being necessary to accomplish that, look at how the Soviet Union became a nonfactor without us even having to fire one bullet at them.  It's all about economies.  

Indeed, it's in China's interests NOT to have a major war go down if they want to become a global superpower.  If a major war went down, their economic growth would be cut down before it could mature, whether they took Taiwan or not.

Small wars will always be with us, it's human nature.
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Doopri
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2005, 08:41:13 PM »

Ahmadinejad was quoted by the official Iranian news agency as saying. "The era of oppression, hegemonic regimes, tyranny and injustice has reached its end." - not really bad ideas - they actually sound kinda familiar...

and Russia was only going to give tehran legal nuclear material so Iran would have an incentive to not develop the duel use facilities that would be required if they werent gifted this stuff - so dont be afraid of that, be happy

and people have been saying the same exact stuff about china forever!  as long as no one "rocks the boat" on the taiwan issue, its a non-issue - and its in both sides interest to not rock the boat (look at their policy toward each other - very much status quo, with some "gamesmanship" rhetoric mixed in every now and then) -  as far as the military buildup goes, well chinas "war machine" is about 30 years out of date - so yea, it makes sense for them to have an increase in military spending during a time of vast economic growth

india and pakistan have actually been getting along better recently - actually its a pretty significant cooling if you remember how bad things were less than 10 years ago.

so cheer up, we have many real problems to worry bout without making up new enemies!
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LoneStarSpur
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2005, 09:01:36 PM »

Things are a damn sight better than they were 30, 40, 50 years ago.

I'm surprised that we made it through that.

The Soviets and Chinese hated one another and were constantly threatening to blow the crap out of each other.

Multiple shooting wars between Israel and Arabs.

Cuban Soviet-proxies all over Africa and Central and South America.

Hungary. Checheslovakia. War in Korea, Vietnam.

Emergency drills for us little kiddies here in the US just in case the Soviets decided to take us out (I still remember that...I'm sure hiding under my desk would have saved me...and don't look out the windows! The flash will blind you!)

Nah, there are certainly problems, but I ain't worried about my grandson getting heated up to 10,000 degrees.

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Raven
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2005, 09:48:59 PM »

Quote
and Russia was only going to give tehran legal nuclear material so Iran would have an incentive to not develop the duel use facilities that would be required if they werent gifted this stuff - so dont be afraid of that, be happy


And you would believe Iran, when they've already been caught red handed?

Does anyone seriously believe that Iran won't do everything possible to join the club.
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Sam Hell
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2005, 09:58:06 PM »

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If a major war went down, their economic growth would be cut down before it could mature


I thought that war was one of the best things to spark econnomics. WWII got us out of The Great Depression or at least played a role in it ending, didn't it?
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Doopri
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2005, 10:25:09 PM »

Raven - you dont need to trust iran, just science.

the material that would be shipped is non-weapons grade and used to essentially "power" the nuclear plant.  if you dont have that material, then you need to built something that can make it, and THIS is the technology that can also be used to enrich weapons grade stuff.

the idea is, give em the stuff thats harmless in and of itself so they dont need to build a facility that can give them material that can be used for their plants, yes but also to make the bad kind of stuff for bombs
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Doopri
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2005, 10:29:38 PM »

oh - and sam hell - it depends - us made out in wwii easily - we were pretty much on a healthy upswing and already out of depression, and then all that demand for war material helped put money in even more peoples pockets...  (keep in mind we also had severe rationing and price fixing too)

BUT - if youre actually "AT" war then no, no way in hell.  wwii absolutely devastated europe much of east asia china and japan economically - wars good when you arent the one getting all your stuff blown to hell smile  and more often than not, youre going to either bankrupt or inflate yourself to death.
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Big Jake
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2005, 11:19:39 PM »

We couldn't be lucky enough to have WW3.  Instead, the ongoing dismantling of the human soul that is our current existence will continue.
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2005, 12:29:13 AM »

Quote from: "Big Jake"
We couldn't be lucky enough to have WW3.  Instead, the ongoing dismantling of the human soul that is our current existence will continue.


Bleak much? :wink:
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2005, 01:26:50 AM »

While India and Pakistan hate each other, it seems both their leaders realize whipping nukes at each other isn't going to benefit either of them.  There are overtures for peace there, if you keep an eye out for them.  Given time, that problem will work itself out.

Iran, it seems to me, doesn't want the nuke for any 'evil' purpose; they have always been a country which wants to make it's own way in the world on it's own terms.  Unlike Iraq, Pakistan, Turkey, etc, Iran is a nationality much like being French or Italian.  They have their own culture rather than being (for the most part) a mix of disparate peoples.  So as far as Iran having the nuke, it becomes a way to enforce their sovereignty.  And in a post-GWB-Iraq-war era, the only way to enforce your sovereignty is with a nuclear weapon program.  GWB's real legacy is going to be the resumption of nuclear proliferation.

North Korea is being run by a nut.  I very much agree.  If there is any loose cannon in the world who is a serious threat to the world at large, it is in NK, not Iraq or even the middle east.

China is all set to topple the USA as the economic superpower, and I don't see anything GWB will do to reverse that.  China is taking industry and services from the USA, and the USA is doing nothing to stop the loss.  GWB is losing the economic war being waged; personally I think he wants it to happen because his involvement with the Carlyle Group (among others) and their investments in China.  

China is likely to annex Taiwan at some point, and there is nothing our bogged down military can do to prevent it.  So, it just happens.  We -could- give them nuclear weapons to protect their sovereignty, but a. China wouldn't be too happy (to put it mildly), and b. we officially throw away the concept of nuclear nonproliferation.  Are we willing to start WW3 over Taiwan?  It would be the 21st century version of the Cuban Missile Crisis.  (Hmm... one clever move would be to covertly arrange for Taiwan to purchase nuclear technology and materials from North Korea).

America needs to wake up from the rhetoric and realize that what is good for investors isn't good for America.  As long as we are still the most lucrative market on the planet, we need to leverage that to our benefit.  If things continue along GWB's path, there is only going to be haves and have nots in the USA, and have nots aren't much of a market force.

But all this may be a moot point if we fail to stop global warming and pollution.  Not having a world to live on makes politics seem kind of silly by comparison.
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TheOneWhoStoodUp
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2005, 02:47:19 AM »

Conventional warfare is dead.  The ONLY country that is really able to wage it on a large scale effectively is China.  Global terrorism?  Sure.  But that's no more a world war than it is a factor inducing social change (for good or ill isn't the debate - the only sure thing is that it  very rarely accomplishes the goals of the terrorist(s) - with the exception of two atomic bombs on Japan).

A World War, that is to say a war that challenges the economies, industries and population through warfare of the heavyweight nations, can only be started by China.  A massive army willing to execute orders of Stalinistic enforcement is the only thing that can light a match big enough to burn even the most deeply embedded kinds of warfare that are waged every day.

China's unique blend of capitalism and pseudo-communism makes it the only "traditionally" imperialistic state in the world.
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HankRaptor
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« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2005, 12:25:44 PM »

I blame Walmart for China's economic revolution.
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Raven
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« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2005, 01:00:46 PM »

Quote from: "HankRaptor"
I blame Walmart for China's economic revolution.


Along with outsourcing.
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whiteboyskim
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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2005, 01:04:34 PM »

Actually, it looks like a war of a different sort is already brewing.
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« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2005, 07:37:27 PM »

Quote from: "whiteboyskim"
Actually, it looks like a war of a different sort is already brewing.


Yeah, Cruise is an idiot who doesnt know what he's talking about.  L Ron died a raving lunatic, so obviously Scientology has all the answers.

[edit] This was great from The Onion-

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stiffler
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« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2005, 12:37:32 AM »

wbs, that link is comedy gold!

Quote
"Before I was a Scientologist, I never agreed with psychiatry," Cruise said. "And when I started studying the history of psychiatry, I understood more and more why I didn't believe in psychology. ... And I know that psychiatry is a pseudo science."


So says the man that practices a pseudo religion...
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corruptrelic
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« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2005, 02:13:08 AM »

You forgot to add Dubya stirring up world hatred against the U.S. and trying to be the world's police force.

No country "wants" war with the U.S., but Dubya wants war with them and the way he talks about other countries and leaders it's no wonder they hate us so much. Wish we could let this people know Dubya doesn't speak on behalf of all Americans.

So having said that, yeah with idiots like Bush in power, WWIII is inevitable. He's taken us to two wars so far, and if our military wasn't stretched so thinly you think he'd even heistate before invading and probably occupying another country?
When the world sees Bush invading the rest of the world (much like Nazi Germany) perhaps they'll team up and make a stand against us? And liberate the countries we are occupying.

That's some heavy sarcasm there but in all honesty, it takes people like Bush to take the world to World War 3. He's thirsty for blood and not only does he talk the talk, but he walks the walk. Negotations are a no go, you either do what he wants or you get bombed, invaded, and occupied.

China has never threatened America (not militarily anyway) and if they invade Tawain, whom they claim is part of their country, even if it's wrong how in the hell does that effect US?? Oh I forgot, Dubya would send young americans to put in the middle of it all to get killed.
If we didn't have a warmongering president, China would pose no threat at all to us.
Neither would any other country, even the so called "Axis of Evil" North Korea or Iran.
(Hell even Iraq didn't pose a threat to us.)

Pakistan and India go to war.. which woudn't be the first time, that's their business. Hopefully they settle their problems with negotiations but if war is a must, then that's really none of our business. What I hate is how Bush *thinks* it's our business, ie, they go to war, lets put some american troops in the middle of it all because what would a blood bath be without american bodies coming home in coffins?

Iran.. big deal. If they're neigbhors aren't threatened, why should we, thousands of miles away, be?
Why can we have weapons of mass destruction and others not have them? Just like Iraq had all those WMD, we had to attack them.. right? Oh I forgot they "moved" them over to Syria, another country we should be attacking! Or maybe they snuck some into Iran. Lets attack them too! And while we're at it lets go after Cuba since it's our job to force our way of life on other countries who have different government styles than our own, even if it means lots of dead Americans in the process.

And I love this one:

Quote
NK is controlled by a nut, and their nuclear program is going strong


Are you sure you aren't describing the United States?

I've pretty much come to the point of counting down the days until 2008 to get this nut out of office.
He's lied to the country and taken us to war based on those lies.
If that's not enough to think he's not fit to run office, then what is?
I really can't wait to get my vote in 3 years, as at this point just about ANYBODY would be better than Dubya.

To sum it up was watching MadTV earlier today and a lady got lost in the white house and met Bush and she said "I was just looking for the lady's room" and he said "Well you're absolutely in the wrong place" and she said "That makes two of us, buddy"
Classic!
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« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2005, 02:50:23 AM »

The sky is falling!  The sky is falling!

So, now the US is gonna start WW3?  Seriously, things were a LOT scarier back when we thought it was going to break out between us and USSR.  Bush overseeing the invasion of Iraq is not "Negotations are a no go, you either do what he wants or you get bombed, invaded, and occupied".  and this:  "If we didn't have a warmongering president, China would pose no threat at all to us." is a patently ludicrous statement as they have posed a threat to us for longer than I have been alive.

Don't believe the hype.  Bush is not Hitler, North Korea is run by AN INSANE PERSON that would be acting like a freak even if Mickey Mouse was in office, and whatever goes on in the middle east affects every country in this world thanks to our dependency on oil and it's byproducts.

And please don't take any of this as a pro-Bush diatribe- I think he's a subpar president, just like every president we've had for the last several decades.  We haven't had a real man of quality in that office in years.  Both republicans and democrats are more concerned with extending their power (for the most part) than actually doing the right thing.  The two-party system is killing this nation more than anything, IMHO.  We at least need more voices in the house and senate, and I don't mean just one or two.

Oh, never mind.  I don't even know why I responded to this thread, it's not like I'm going to convince anybody to stop buying into the bullshit of one side or another.  /rant off.
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« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2005, 08:53:23 AM »

I think WW3 is an exageration.

My take on Bush is that he viewed our armed forces as a way to make money, and now is finding out we actually had them there for a reason.  Not that he cares, in all likelyhood.

I just brought up China, NK and Iran to refute any claims that Iraq somehow puts America in a better position.  Armed forces were more of a threat to other countries when they arent deployed; even playing Risk or Civilization can tell you that.

As for Taiwan, I believe we have treaties to protect them in the event that China tries to annex them, much like we have treaties with South Korea and Japan.  Anyway, China has three years to coerce Taiwan to join them diplomatically.  I'm guessing their invasion timetable is pegged to when the White House decides to pull out of Iraq.
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Baron Of Hell
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« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2005, 10:29:48 PM »

Given enough time WW3 will happen. Everyone wants a nuke to keep the bad old americans from attacking them.  We consume with no regard to what it is doing to the earth. Then other countries try to do by the example america has set. But if everyone is america who gets the short stick? The world is consumed and war breaks out to feed the greed.  I see it as matter of space. Wants it runs out the fighting begins.
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Big Jake
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« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2005, 05:37:35 PM »

I would like to take this time to mention unreasoning hatred of "others" and the willingness to attack without forethought of consequences is a completely new development in the last three hundred years.  Cool
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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2005, 05:46:29 AM »

Quote from: "Andrew Mallon"
You're kind of a 'glass is half-empty' guy, aren't you? slywink


 Lol.
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