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Author Topic: Is any group safe for young children?  (Read 952 times)
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envy24
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« on: December 03, 2010, 04:26:44 PM »

I was in Boy Scouts for 7 years (11-18) and never had any issue with anything even remotely related to this http://www.cantonrep.com/news/x1145372052/Boy-Scout-leader-arrested-on-sex-related-charge I went to high school with the guy aledged in the misconduct. I always expected him to come out of the closet (not saying anything wrong with gays) but when they do shit like this it really bothers me. More and more young kids are being subject to this shit and it pisses me off. If you were a parent and had a son of age to be in Boy Scouts would you with all the recent "leaders" being accused of such acts place your son in Boy Scouts. I dont have any children yet but some day i will. and i cant see myself placing my child in a situation where something like this could. The only way i would place them in a troop is if i were to be a leader and be there at every meeting and camping trip. I had a blast in scouting and think its a shame that people that these kids are supposed to look to and up to for help and leadership can do this.
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Alefroth
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2010, 04:31:14 PM »

Would it be better if it was a heterosexual molesting your child?

Ale
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envy24
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2010, 04:34:06 PM »

no
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2010, 04:55:49 PM »

NAMBLA
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Shinjin
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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2010, 05:09:49 PM »

I was in scouting for a long time as well.  In a town that neighbors the one I grew up in, a boy scout leader was nailed for this.

My oldest boy was interested in cub scouts, so we let him join up this year.  Something that is a big change from when I was in scouts (~30 years ago) is part of the Bobcat badge (the first badge that any cub scout must earn).  Now one of the steps is the parent signing off on having a discussion with the child about child abuse - physical / emotional / sexual / etc.  Definitely not something from my childhood.  Either that or my parents just signed off on it without having any discussion with me.

On one level it seems like a good measure to make sure your child is aware of these things.  But the cynic in me just wonders if this is just put in there as CYA for the BSA.

Note:  I do intend to attend the meetings and do the group activities with him.  At least until he is older (assuming he sticks with it).
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rshetts2
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2010, 05:10:36 PM »

the answer to your question is no.  Your kids are not even safe on the streets of their own neighborhoods.  There are predators everywhere, in every walk of life.  You will find them in the clergy, in law enforcement, teaching our children at all levels including daycare.  That 3rd cousin just may be Uncle Pervie, you never know.  From that a bit too friendly scout master to Chuckles the clown there are dangers all around us. If you think that they are safe in your own home, think again.  A quick hop on the internet and your kid is on the electric highway to Predator town.   If fact the only way to protect your child is to wall them up in the basement and feed them through a chute.
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2010, 05:13:15 PM »

Quote from: rshetts2 on December 03, 2010, 05:10:36 PM

If fact the only way to protect your child is to wall them up in the basement and feed them through a chute.

Bonzai kiddie!
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envy24
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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2010, 05:22:59 PM »

Quote from: rshetts2 on December 03, 2010, 05:10:36 PM

the answer to your question is no.  Your kids are not even safe on the streets of their own neighborhoods.  There are predators everywhere, in every walk of life.  You will find them in the clergy, in law enforcement, teaching our children at all levels including daycare.  That 3rd cousin just may be Uncle Pervie, you never know.  From that a bit too friendly scout master to Chuckles the clown there are dangers all around us. If you think that they are safe in your own home, think again.  A quick hop on the internet and your kid is on the electric highway to Predator town.   If fact the only way to protect your child is to wall them up in the basement and feed them through a chute.

ill start building the chute right away
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CeeKay
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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2010, 05:27:05 PM »

Quote from: Isgrimnur on December 03, 2010, 05:13:15 PM

Quote from: rshetts2 on December 03, 2010, 05:10:36 PM

If fact the only way to protect your child is to wall them up in the basement and feed them through a chute.

Bonzai kiddie!

LOL
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joeyjazz
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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2010, 06:00:26 PM »

.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2010, 06:11:32 PM »

You can't blame every priest, every scout master or every teacher when one of them turns out to be a perv.......I am sure this stuff has existed for generations but it is just in the last 20 years that the media has reacted to it.

You can't live your life as a paranoid. It just won't work that way. You do your best, you do your homework, you avoid the really stupid situations and then you takes your chances with everything else.
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SkyLander
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2010, 06:18:59 PM »

I was a cub scout up to weblos, I didn't go into the full Boy Scouts. I had fun.

But in either case since watching Penn and Tellers Boy Scout episode, I doubt I will ever be involved with them again. Or involve any of my future children.
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envy24
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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2010, 06:33:30 PM »

I agree completely you should be involved (i dont have children yet) and i would gladly be a part of any troop. I was merely stating that its sad that this has become so common nowadays.
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joeyjazz
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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2010, 07:10:01 PM »

.
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Scuzz
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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2010, 07:19:39 PM »

Quote from: joeyjazz on December 03, 2010, 07:10:01 PM

Quote from: SkyLander on December 03, 2010, 06:18:59 PM

But in either case since watching Penn and Tellers Boy Scout episode, I doubt I will ever be involved with them again. Or involve any of my future children.

I'm on the fence about this one.  On the one hand, I'm completely at odds with the stated beliefs and policies of the BSA and would never feel good about giving them money or being a member again.  On the other, if you get in a good troop (like the ones I was in) none of those things are ever brought up or enforced and there are a TON of opportunities you can get through scouting that are very difficult to do otherwise. 

exactly.....you can pick your troop you know...some are better than others, more active, better leaders....
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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2010, 08:43:33 PM »

Quote from: WalkingFumble on December 03, 2010, 04:55:49 PM

NAMBLA

Had to look that up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Man/Boy_Love_Association

I find it hilariou that Jimmy Wales is looking intensely out of the monitor at you.
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Roguetad
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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2010, 08:57:11 PM »

As a kid I remember being dropped off for cub scouts with only the den leader as parental leadership on most occasions.  It was like that from cub scouts until I stopped doing boy scouts.  Pack meetings or troop meetings had other adults, but not many. 

Today I'm required to be with my son for all of his cub scout meetings.  We've only been doing cub scouts for about 2 months, but I've noticed a lot of CYA in place compared to when I did scouts. It's not a bad thing, it's just very different than the experience I had.  I liked scouts as a kid because it was a good break from my parents, and it allowed for some other coaching/mentoring with other adults.  Thankfully, I never had any bad experiences, it was all very positive.  A lot of the tiger cub book today is geared towards parent - scout combined activities.  I don't remember doing any of that stuff with my parents.  I was joking to my wife that this is my second time as a cub scout.   

 
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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2010, 09:00:10 PM »

Quote from: Roguetad on December 03, 2010, 08:57:11 PM

As a kid I remember being dropped off for cub scouts with only the den leader as parental leadership on most occasions.  It was like that from cub scouts until I stopped doing boy scouts.  Pack meetings or troop meetings had other adults, but not many. 

Today I'm required to be with my son for all of his cub scout meetings.  We've only been doing cub scouts for about 2 months, but I've noticed a lot of CYA in place compared to when I did scouts. It's not a bad thing, it's just very different than the experience I had.  I liked scouts as a kid because it was a good break from my parents, and it allowed for some other coaching/mentoring with other adults.  Thankfully, I never had any bad experiences, it was all very positive.  A lot of the tiger cub book today is geared towards parent - scout combined activities.  I don't remember doing any of that stuff with my parents.  I was joking to my wife that this is my second time as a cub scout.   

You left off the part where you offered to wear the uniform for her, you sicko.

slywink
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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2010, 09:08:13 PM »

While the Boy Scouts can be a very positive experience (my brother absolutely loved it and is currently the leader of his son's Cub Scout pack), my experience was somewhat different.  

Basically, as others have said, it all comes down to the leadership.   When I was in Boy Scouts, the adults tended to take a hands-off role (no pun intended) - for the first 30-40 minutes, all the boys would be in one room goofing off, playing, etc. while the adults would be in another room chatting amongst themselves.  

The problem was that there were a handful of older boys who would constantly bully some of the younger/weaker kids (including myself for the first year or so), and the adults were pretty much clueless about what was going on.  I don't think it was malice on their part, they just weren't involved as they should have been.  I'm glad to hear that they encourage more parental involvement these days.

As far as the impression that Boy Scouts/Catholics/etc. are rife with sexual predators... I will not defend those who actually commit these crimes, as they need to be outed and punished.  But I will also say that those organizations' stated conservative values tend to be at odds with the values of those who make the news (and everyone loves a good "look at those hypocrites" story), therefore they tend to be under greater scrutiny and subject to more media coverage when one of the jackasses like envy's schoolmate are found.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 09:26:10 PM by Laner » Logged
Scuzz
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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2010, 09:39:37 PM »

Times have changed with many groups. I think parents used to see some of these groups as ways of letting the kids learn to do things on their own. Kinda like sports was like that.

Now parents are encouraged to get involved in everything...scouts, schools, sports etc.

I see it as good and bad.


When I was in scouts (age 8-16 maybe) my mother was my den mother and the scout leader was an old military acquaintance of my father. There was older boys but we all looked up to them, because they were older. Scouting was all about camping trips.

Loved scouts until I got old enough to drive, drink and do drugs.
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Moliere
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« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2010, 11:02:41 PM »

Always be on the lookout for sexual predators.

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« Reply #21 on: December 03, 2010, 11:26:04 PM »

I have never heard of PETA having any child molesters, so they should be kid safe.
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« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2010, 11:38:06 PM »

Quote from: rshetts2 on December 03, 2010, 05:10:36 PM

If fact the only way to protect your child is to wall them up in the basement and feed them through a chute.

But what if the wall falls on them?  Or they choke on the food?  Or the food slides down the chute to fast and severs an artery?
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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2010, 12:43:45 AM »

Quote from: envy24 on December 03, 2010, 06:33:30 PM

I agree completely you should be involved (i dont have children yet) and i would gladly be a part of any troop. I was merely stating that its sad that this has become so common nowadays.

Is it really more common, though? Or do we just hear about it from the media more often?
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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2010, 12:47:44 AM »

Quote from: Moliere on December 03, 2010, 11:02:41 PM

Always be on the lookout for sexual predators.




that's just so great...i mean wrong....... icon_biggrin
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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2010, 12:48:49 AM »

Quote from: godhugh on December 04, 2010, 12:43:45 AM

Quote from: envy24 on December 03, 2010, 06:33:30 PM

I agree completely you should be involved (i dont have children yet) and i would gladly be a part of any troop. I was merely stating that its sad that this has become so common nowadays.

Is it really more common, though? Or do we just hear about it from the media more often?


this........used to be they just slipped out of town quietly.......
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godhugh
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« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2010, 01:08:35 AM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 04, 2010, 12:48:49 AM

Quote from: godhugh on December 04, 2010, 12:43:45 AM

Quote from: envy24 on December 03, 2010, 06:33:30 PM

I agree completely you should be involved (i dont have children yet) and i would gladly be a part of any troop. I was merely stating that its sad that this has become so common nowadays.

Is it really more common, though? Or do we just hear about it from the media more often?


this........used to be they just slipped out of town quietly.......

If anything, I'd say it's less common simply because so many more people are aware of it and watching out for warning signs.
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rshetts2
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« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2010, 01:16:20 AM »

Seriously, I doubt that the ratio is any bigger.  The thing is even though the ratio may be the same with larger populations there are, numerically. more of them.  Add in the fact that mass media and the internet expose us to these occurances no matter where they take place and youre hearing about far more occurances than what happens locally.  The bad thing is, it makes it seem like theres a predator around every corner, the good thing is it does make us more aware.  So while it is possible that awareness has made it less common, we hear about it a lot more.
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« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2010, 12:28:24 PM »

One thing you might not be aware of is the requirements that the sponsoring organization have. In the case of my scout troop (sponsored by a Methodist church), I not only have to take youth protection training, but I have to have clearance checks run to allow me to volunteer using the church facilities. The best way to be reassured, if you are nervous, is to get involved. You might also notice that the BSA also is much more aware of bullying than it was in the past.

You have to realize that the leaders don't want to have child molesters around either. It's not like I signed up to scratch a secret itch. I mean, ewww. And I don't want my reputation ruined by groundless accusations either.

Like I said, get involved. If you don't like one troop/pack, find another. You'll have fun, meet some great kids, make some great adult friends and probably take some trips that you never would have gone on otherwise.

   
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« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2010, 03:53:15 PM »

I loved BSA when I was a kid.   We had a "military" scout master.  Basically a bunch of boys running around the woods, throwing corn at the other troops at night, shooting arrows, canoing, and raising hell, being boys.

We did not want parents participating...    More parents = less fun, and most peoples parents were dipshit lamers...

We marched, did push ups, earned badges, rode horses.   Canoe races.   Tons of boys running around the woods for 3 weeks each summer, etc.


Anyways, my son came home and wanted to join cubscouts, had a brochure...  We signed up.

Parents all over the place...  And cut out pictures for a Food pyramid.  Did a couple camping trips, again, mothers and parents all over.

My son wanted to quit after a month or two.   He said: on the brochure it shows people shooting bows and arrows.  Not make food pyramids.


I laughed, and he quit...  It sure is not the Boyscouts I remember...



Boy Scouts was better when it was just "the boys" imo.
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« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2010, 04:04:19 PM »

Cub Scouts is kind of like training camp for Boy Scouts, which is when the 'no parents' effect kicks in.  Your description sounds like my memory of Boy Scouts, which was age 12+ I think.

I don't know any adult able to handle 15 8-year-old boys (the size of my son's den ) on an overnight camping trip, even with an assistant den leader.
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2010, 04:15:37 PM »

Quote from: Shinjin on December 07, 2010, 04:04:19 PM

Cub Scouts is kind of like training camp for Boy Scouts, which is when the 'no parents' effect kicks in.  Your description sounds like my memory of Boy Scouts, which was age 12+ I think.

I don't know any adult able to handle 15 8-year-old boys (the size of my son's den ) on an overnight camping trip, even with an assistant den leader.

True that.  I didnt do the cub scout thing.  Maybe he can try again at age 12ish..
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« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2010, 05:33:36 PM »

Quote from: Morgul on December 07, 2010, 04:15:37 PM

Quote from: Shinjin on December 07, 2010, 04:04:19 PM

Cub Scouts is kind of like training camp for Boy Scouts, which is when the 'no parents' effect kicks in.  Your description sounds like my memory of Boy Scouts, which was age 12+ I think.

I don't know any adult able to handle 15 8-year-old boys (the size of my son's den ) on an overnight camping trip, even with an assistant den leader.

True that.  I didnt do the cub scout thing.  Maybe he can try again at age 12ish..

I remember cub scouts as something done in a living room. No camping. Mothers involved. Pinewood derby type stuff. Crafts.

Boy Scouts at age 11 or 12 you then get camping, neighborhood events and we even did rehab work in the national forest. Scout camp in the mountains for a week every year. Belonging to an active Boy Scout troop is something I would think almost every boy would enjoy and learn from.
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« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2010, 12:13:07 AM »

Quote from: Scuzz on December 07, 2010, 05:33:36 PM

Quote from: Morgul on December 07, 2010, 04:15:37 PM

Quote from: Shinjin on December 07, 2010, 04:04:19 PM

Cub Scouts is kind of like training camp for Boy Scouts, which is when the 'no parents' effect kicks in.  Your description sounds like my memory of Boy Scouts, which was age 12+ I think.

I don't know any adult able to handle 15 8-year-old boys (the size of my son's den ) on an overnight camping trip, even with an assistant den leader.

True that.  I didnt do the cub scout thing.  Maybe he can try again at age 12ish..




I remember cub scouts as something done in a living room. No camping. Mothers involved. Pinewood derby type stuff. Crafts.

Boy Scouts at age 11 or 12 you then get camping, neighborhood events and we even did rehab work in the national forest. Scout camp in the mountains for a week every year. Belonging to an active Boy Scout troop is something I would think almost every boy would enjoy and learn from.


Correct. Cubbies is arts and crafts and parental involvement. Ideally, the activities are training for the more involved Scout stuff. When I was running my den, we made trailmix for and activity. Everyone brought in something and we mixed it up. I talked about nutrition, we went and played ship to shore and then had the trailmix as a snack. In Boy Scouts, it ramps up to them cooking their own meals.
Couple of weekends ago, we had dutch oven chicken parm, stew, apple cobbler and  "banana splits". 

Oh, yeah, archery and .22 rifles are real big in our troop too. icon_lol
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2010, 01:37:59 AM »

Quote from: Morgul on December 07, 2010, 03:53:15 PM

Anyways, my son came home and wanted to join cubscouts, had a brochure...  We signed up.

Parents all over the place...  And cut out pictures for a Food pyramid.  Did a couple camping trips, again, mothers and parents all over.

My son wanted to quit after a month or two.   He said: on the brochure it shows people shooting bows and arrows.  Not make food pyramids.

Lol!  We cut out pictures for a food pyramid at my son's last den meeting.  There were 6 boys and 4 adults working on the food pyramid.  It was pretty silly.  All the boys wanted to do was run around the school gym and play. 

I remember doing a lot more camping and going to the week long summer camps once I hit webelos.  Exactly as you described.  We did archery, hiked, canoed, swam in a river, practiced land navigation, raided the local boy scout summer camp across the river, learned about venomous animals and poisonous plants, and they even let us shoot bb guns at a cool outdoor bb gun rifle range.  For a 10-12 year old that stuff was awesome.  And that was all in webelos for me.  I had forgotten about the indoor den meetings being mostly arts and crafts until my son started cub scouts.  I think I purged those meetings from memory.  I hated the indoor den meetings as a kid.         
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« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2010, 02:54:30 AM »

To tell you the truth, the girl and I who were denleaders never followed the recommended activities because they were lame. It took a lot of work on our part, but we came up with things like mousetrap catapults, had the kids make huge spiders for Halloween lawn decorations out of trashbags and newspapers and stuff like that.
Food pyramids are ok and all, but our format was:

Pledge of allegiance

check books

Activity for the meeting

Game

Snack

Dismissal


Two things keep the parents involved. One, every week we had a snack and a drink and all the parents took turns. Two, our crafts were things like leatherwork, and other activities, like building tool caddies for father's day that required a parent's assistance. (I was always a little ambitious) Another philosophy we had was, if there was a younger sibling, they could participate too. If I had to make up extra kits for whatever we were doing that night, it was ok. It didn't hurt that Carol was very creative. In one meeting we made t-shirts using Japanese fishpainting techniques. 


If I haaaddd to work on food pyramids, I would have a copy of the zombie food pyramid handy too. nod icon_biggrin
 
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