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Author Topic: Indy IV: thoughts, reviews, spoilers galore!!  (Read 20142 times)
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« Reply #200 on: June 16, 2008, 11:26:06 AM »

Quote from: Gratch on June 16, 2008, 03:26:23 AM

Quote from: wonderpug on June 13, 2008, 01:06:25 PM

Not as good as Raiders, but now it won't be unanimously voted the worst of the quadrilogy. 

Judging by the positive reaction from many of us that saw it, I think that would hardly be 'unanimous'.  I personally liked this one far better than Last Crusade.

I liked 4 better than Temple of Doom, but less than Last Crusade.
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« Reply #201 on: June 17, 2008, 03:25:25 PM »

Finally saw this on Sunday. I agree with most of the sentiments here, with the exception of the "omgz Spielberg/Lucas raped my childhood" posts.

Spoiler for Hiden:
the good:

The action - several Indy-worth action bits, like warehouse/rocket fight, the school chase and the jungle chase (with the exception of the monkey swinging. What were they thinking?)

The humor - it didn't take itself too seriously and was definitely in the "Last Crusade" mold. I am surprised that some people don't like "Last Crusade". I've always thought it was a solid number 2 (maybe even 1a) in the series.  It's extremely entertaining and it has held up very well (just watched a couple of weeks ago). I never liked "Temple of Doom" much and watching it recently, it felt so sloppy and really dragged at points.

The nostalgia - having Marion in the movie was great.

the bad:

The exposition - this has been mentioned.  If you go back and watch the older movies, you don't find a lot of scenes where there is just talking. If you remember the early scene with Indy and the govt reps at the school, Indy gets up on the chalkboard and draws up the lost ark story so we have a good idea of what he is talking about. Even in Temple of Doom (which I am not a big fan of), the story of the Thugee cult is interspersed within the dinner scene, so it doesn't drag.  However, several times in this movie, people are just sitting around talking. The scene in the diner where Mutt tells his life story was particularly bad, because he starts talking about "the Ox", almost like we should know who this character is.

The suspension of disbelief - there are plenty of fantastic things that happen in the Indiana Jones movies, but some of the events in this one were too much to not roll your eyes at. Falling out of a plane on a raft is one thing - you could conceive of it working. They even tried it on MythBusters.  Falling over three successive waterfalls in a row? You know they should be dead, if not from being crushed by the duck boat, then by crashing on the rocks. Mine car race - not likely, but at least a little believable. Surviving a nuclear blast? No way. They just went overboard.

The nostalgia - the other side of this is the things that were not done well. I like Marion when they first introduced her, but for the rest of the movie she just kind of hung out there with this weird grin on her face.  She should have been harder edged like the original Marion and warmed up slowly to Indy as the movie went on. I thought the Connery bit was awkward.  It almost implied that Connery himself were dead, instead of just the character.  And I agree that Denholm Elliot bit was poorly done.  Wouldn't it have been better if we saw the car crash into the statue from the statue's rear and then pan up to see it was Brody who saved Indy, even in death? Why cut his head off?

The crystal skull - that prop was huge and looked awful, especially being lugged around. I don't have a problem with an aliens plotline, but it could have been done a lot better.  I still don't understand that if the skeletons of 13 aliens have the power to take off in a spaceship, how exactly did they allow one of their heads to get stolen?


Overall, I enjoyed it, but it felt...clunky.  I went in with lowered expectations, but it was hard to really enjoy it, because you just have higher standards for Indiana Jones.
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« Reply #202 on: June 17, 2008, 11:25:25 PM »

Something I don't recall being mentioned in this thread, and it's bugged me since I left the theater on opening weekend...

Where were the puzzles? Sure, there was a single death-trap at the end, but where were the puzzles set out so a smart adventurer could make his way to the big treasure? All we got were "Exposition Mode" Indy, and "Survival Mode" Indy.
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« Reply #203 on: June 18, 2008, 01:23:55 AM »

Well, there was that disc that pivoted to reveal the entrance to first crystal skull.  Yeah, it did suck.
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« Reply #204 on: June 18, 2008, 02:05:20 AM »

Quote from: Razgon on June 16, 2008, 06:33:56 AM

The internet doesnt hate everything...if you have seen just a few of my posts, you'll know that I at least am a normally quite happy and positive person...but this movie? It just pisses me off for being so over the top, trying to be so much more than it can, and THAT is where it fails for me...

I actually like wonderpugs suggestions - they make perfect sense for me, and are a huge part of the reason for why I didnt like it(ed: The movie)

The other Indy movies aren't over the top?  Okay.  To me, it felt just like the other 3, which is a good thing.

As for Iron Man (Biyobi mentioned), it isn't any better than the Indy movie.  I liked them both for differing reasons and yet everyone shits on Indy.  Probably because nostalgia got the best of them.  For more on that, see the Star Wars prequels.
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« Reply #205 on: June 18, 2008, 02:17:32 AM »

Quote from: The Grue on June 18, 2008, 02:05:20 AM


As for Iron Man (Biyobi mentioned), it isn't any better than the Indy movie. 

.......

I...ya, can't even remotely agree with that. I can only see The Dark Knight topping Iron Man for me this summer, Indy didn't come even close (it probably won't make top 5 for me this summer).

I hadn't seen the Indy films in over a decade, so I re-watched them before #4. Raiders was great, Temple was worse than #4, and Last Crusade was light but fluffy. I had no nostalgia going into #4, since I didn't remember a thing about the movies before re-watching them, only that I think I saw them. No warm and fuzzy memories or anything.

Indy 4 started with promise, but the jungle scene, the waterfalls, not to mention the ending put it firmly in the 'what the hell were they thinking?' camp.
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« Reply #206 on: June 18, 2008, 02:25:26 AM »

Quote from: CrayolaSmoker on June 17, 2008, 11:25:25 PM

Something I don't recall being mentioned in this thread, and it's bugged me since I left the theater on opening weekend...

Where were the puzzles? Sure, there was a single death-trap at the end, but where were the puzzles set out so a smart adventurer could make his way to the big treasure? All we got were "Exposition Mode" Indy, and "Survival Mode" Indy.

You know, the friend I went with mentioned this after the movie, and I realized he was right. It was a bit like it had caught the Da Vinci Code bug. Makes me wonder how different this would of been 5 years ago before the Da Vinci Code came out. The one thing I really liked about the Da Vinci code that I felt they did right were the visual cues, things that were originally described in the book as narration.

And Grue, I also disagree on that. I mean, I saw the Chronicles of Narnia the day after I saw Indy and I thought even that was a much better movie. I felt like it trounced all over it in terms of a cinematic experience, to the point that I almost forgot about Indy,  so for me, until The Dark Knight, Ironman and The Chronicles of Narnia have been my favourite movies of the summer.
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« Reply #207 on: June 18, 2008, 04:11:46 AM »

Quote from: Jiffy on June 18, 2008, 02:17:32 AM


Indy 4 started with promise, but the jungle scene, the waterfalls, not to mention the ending put it firmly in the 'what the hell were they thinking?' camp.

I'm not one to let something like the fact that they wouldn't survive those waterfalls bother me.  If I can believe in aliens and arks of the covenant, I can believe they would survive a waterfall.
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« Reply #208 on: June 18, 2008, 01:36:41 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on June 18, 2008, 04:11:46 AM


I'm not one to let something like the fact that they wouldn't survive those waterfalls bother me.  If I can believe in aliens and arks of the covenant, I can believe they would survive a waterfall.

Exactly.  I don't see how that's any less believable than a magical box that kills anyone with their eyes open, a cup that heals any ailment and provides immortality, albeit limited, but immortaility nonetheless, or a dude that can pull out your beating heart and still keeping you alive long enough to burn you to death.

Yeah, the notions of surviving 3 waterfalls or a nuclear explosion are so farfetched compared to the above... Roll Eyes
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« Reply #209 on: June 18, 2008, 01:48:16 PM »

I didn't care so much that the waterfall survival wasn't believable (it wasn't), but why the hell was it in there?  It wasn't funny and it didn't build any suspense.  It was just one more thing that was there for no reason.  That's my problem with the waterfall.
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« Reply #210 on: June 18, 2008, 01:56:17 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on June 18, 2008, 01:36:41 PM

Quote from: The Grue on June 18, 2008, 04:11:46 AM


I'm not one to let something like the fact that they wouldn't survive those waterfalls bother me.  If I can believe in aliens and arks of the covenant, I can believe they would survive a waterfall.

 

Exactly.  I don't see how that's any less believable than a magical box that kills anyone with their eyes open, a cup that heals any ailment and provides immortality, albeit limited, but immortaility nonetheless, or a dude that can pull out your beating heart and still keeping you alive long enough to burn you to death.

Yeah, the notions of surviving 3 waterfalls or a nuclear explosion are so farfetched compared to the above... Roll Eyes

Because all of the things you mentioned are rooted in fantasy/bible-lore and a waterfall and a nuclear bomb are reality. We are ok with Mola Rahm (sp?) ripping someone's heart out because he is supposed to be some sort of shaman who is granted powers from Kali and the magic stones or whatever. The grail/ark have stories behind them. A nuclear bomb, however, is a nuclear bomb.  There is nothing provided in the story or history to make us believe that Indy has the power to survive a nuclear blast.
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« Reply #211 on: June 18, 2008, 03:16:06 PM »

Quote from: Teggy on June 18, 2008, 01:56:17 PM

Quote from: rickfc on June 18, 2008, 01:36:41 PM

Quote from: The Grue on June 18, 2008, 04:11:46 AM


I'm not one to let something like the fact that they wouldn't survive those waterfalls bother me.  If I can believe in aliens and arks of the covenant, I can believe they would survive a waterfall.

 

Exactly.  I don't see how that's any less believable than a magical box that kills anyone with their eyes open, a cup that heals any ailment and provides immortality, albeit limited, but immortaility nonetheless, or a dude that can pull out your beating heart and still keeping you alive long enough to burn you to death.

Yeah, the notions of surviving 3 waterfalls or a nuclear explosion are so farfetched compared to the above... Roll Eyes

Because all of the things you mentioned are rooted in fantasy/bible-lore and a waterfall and a nuclear bomb are reality. We are ok with Mola Rahm (sp?) ripping someone's heart out because he is supposed to be some sort of shaman who is granted powers from Kali and the magic stones or whatever. The grail/ark have stories behind them. A nuclear bomb, however, is a nuclear bomb.  There is nothing provided in the story or history to make us believe that Indy has the power to survive a nuclear blast.

maybe it's a side effect from drinking from the holy grail.
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« Reply #212 on: June 18, 2008, 03:29:45 PM »

Quote from: Teggy on June 18, 2008, 01:56:17 PM


Because all of the things you mentioned are rooted in fantasy/bible-lore and a waterfall and a nuclear bomb are reality. We are ok with Mola Rahm (sp?) ripping someone's heart out because he is supposed to be some sort of shaman who is granted powers from Kali and the magic stones or whatever. The grail/ark have stories behind them. A nuclear bomb, however, is a nuclear bomb.  There is nothing provided in the story or history to make us believe that Indy has the power to survive a nuclear blast.

Firstly, we're discussing believability.  IMO, just because there are stories about a mythical ark or cup, it does not make it any more believable than surviving a nuclear blast.  I'm sorry.  It just doesn't work that way.
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« Reply #213 on: June 18, 2008, 03:35:58 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on June 18, 2008, 03:29:45 PM

Firstly, we're discussing believability.  IMO, just because there are stories about a mythical ark or cup, it does not make it any more believable than surviving a nuclear blast.  I'm sorry.  It just doesn't work that way.

Sure it does.

Magic voodoo relic does things from magic voodoo power, so magic voodoo eye closing or whatever is a plausible defense in the film's world.

There's no magic voodoo behind the nuclear bomb in the movie, just like there's no magic voodoo behind the bullets fired from the guns.  Indy has the knowledge to combat hexes, curses, and other assorted oddities from ancient lore but he can't speak an incantation to stop bullets or nuclear explosions.
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« Reply #214 on: June 18, 2008, 03:55:37 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 18, 2008, 03:35:58 PM

Quote from: rickfc on June 18, 2008, 03:29:45 PM

Firstly, we're discussing believability.  IMO, just because there are stories about a mythical ark or cup, it does not make it any more believable than surviving a nuclear blast.  I'm sorry.  It just doesn't work that way.

Sure it does.

Magic voodoo relic does things from magic voodoo power, so magic voodoo eye closing or whatever is a plausible defense in the film's world.

There's no magic voodoo behind the nuclear bomb in the movie, just like there's no magic voodoo behind the bullets fired from the guns.  Indy has the knowledge to combat hexes, curses, and other assorted oddities from ancient lore but he can't speak an incantation to stop bullets or nuclear explosions.

Alright, so how about people getting shot at by soldiers at fairly close range and not being hit (especially when the targets are 60 year old men)?  This happens in movies all the time (Stormtroopers in Star Wars) and nobody is freaking out about it (well, I am sure some people are).  How about getting the shit kicked out of you and taking more abuse than any human really could and yet still winning (think big, burly German dude in Raiders).

I don't let those ones bother me, either, despite them not being based in other-wordly powers.  I actually thought the waterfall thing was funny because they were all happy about surviving the one, even though you knew from Ox's quote that there were going to be three.  As for the nuclear blast, it was just cool.
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« Reply #215 on: June 18, 2008, 04:00:28 PM »

That's just general movie bad aim and infinite ammo, and hero resilience.  You have to admit that shrugging off a ground zero nuclear explosion is quite a bit further down the suspension of disbelief spectrum compared to bad-guy Stormtrooper aim and Indy's ability to take a punch.
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« Reply #216 on: June 18, 2008, 07:55:12 PM »

Go read about what happens to ground zero when an atomic bomb is dropped on it. Temperatures of tens of MILLIONS of degrees, for starters. I don't know of any refrigerator that can insulate you from ten million degrees of heat. Fatal doses of radiation. Unimaginable shockwave forces, enough to completely destroy concrete buildings. Even if you assume this magic fridge could withstand the heat, and radiation, and even the force of the blast, the sheer distance he would have been thrown would have killed him instantly on impact.

I mean, you can't even *begin* to explain that away on any level. There's no god or magic power that can help with that one. You can't even bend the laws of physics to get away with it. The possibility of him surviving three waterfalls, OK, in reality not good, but I can at least wrap my brain around the idea that he got extremely lucky, as I can with many of Indy's past physical stunts. Luck cannot explain the nuke blast.
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« Reply #217 on: June 18, 2008, 08:27:03 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 18, 2008, 07:55:12 PM

I mean, you can't even *begin* to explain that away on any level.

Refrigerators are designed to make things colder.  They can bring a beer down to under 40 degrees even in 100 degree weather.  Indiana Jones didn't even have a beer.
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« Reply #218 on: June 18, 2008, 08:28:10 PM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 18, 2008, 03:35:58 PM

Quote from: rickfc on June 18, 2008, 03:29:45 PM

Firstly, we're discussing believability.  IMO, just because there are stories about a mythical ark or cup, it does not make it any more believable than surviving a nuclear blast.  I'm sorry.  It just doesn't work that way.

Sure it does.

Magic voodoo relic does things from magic voodoo power, so magic voodoo eye closing or whatever is a plausible defense in the film's world.

There's no magic voodoo behind the nuclear bomb in the movie, just like there's no magic voodoo behind the bullets fired from the guns.  Indy has the knowledge to combat hexes, curses, and other assorted oddities from ancient lore but he can't speak an incantation to stop bullets or nuclear explosions.

Exactly - certain things are accepted of the world that Indiana Jones lives in. Primarily these revolve around the truth of legends. It's the same as if I go to see Star Wars - I don't care that Darth Vader can strangle men without touching them because it is accepted that the force exists in that world.  But people die in the Indiana Jones world from typical things that could kill you in our world - bullets (all the movies), falls from great heights (Temple of Doom), propeller blades (Raiders), etc. These are the rules of the world that the previous movies have laid the groundwork for. So when the movie suddenly breaks those rules it has created, the audience member feels disoriented.
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« Reply #219 on: June 18, 2008, 11:08:04 PM »

And you guys don't buy that it's just a movie, huh?  I guess I don't get why stuff like that bothers you.  To each his own, though.  I like my attitude better because it means I enjoy most things.
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« Reply #220 on: June 18, 2008, 11:34:03 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on June 18, 2008, 11:08:04 PM

And you guys don't buy that it's just a movie, huh?  I guess I don't get why stuff like that bothers you.  To each his own, though.  I like my attitude better because it means I enjoy most things.

+1
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« Reply #221 on: June 18, 2008, 11:45:49 PM »

Quote from: rickfc on June 18, 2008, 11:34:03 PM

Quote from: The Grue on June 18, 2008, 11:08:04 PM

And you guys don't buy that it's just a movie, huh?  I guess I don't get why stuff like that bothers you.  To each his own, though.  I like my attitude better because it means I enjoy most things.

+1

++1.  If I picked apart the ridiculousness of 99% of movies I see, i wouldn't enjoy anything.

Quote
But people die in the Indiana Jones world from typical things that could kill you in our world - bullets (all the movies)

There were legions of Nazi's who suffered from "stormtrooper aim" in Last Crusade.  How were they any worse than the Russians in KotCS?

Quote
falls from great heights (Temple of Doom)

Um, they jumped out of a airplane on a liferaft in Temple of Doom and were fine.  Remember, only badguys have problems with heights.  slywink

Again, I'm certainly not trying to change anyone's mind about KotCS.  If you don't like it, you don't like it.  I just think it's silly to say that it was in greater violation of common sense and/or physics than any of the others.
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« Reply #222 on: June 19, 2008, 12:44:50 AM »

Quote from: Gratch on June 18, 2008, 11:45:49 PM

Um, they jumped out of a airplane on a liferaft in Temple of Doom and were fine.  Remember, only badguys have problems with heights.  slywink

Yeah, a parachute-like raft onto snow. Completely plausible smile 

Even if I give you the waterfall, the nuclear blast was just ridiculous. 
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« Reply #223 on: June 19, 2008, 12:46:55 AM »

Quote from: The Grue on June 18, 2008, 11:08:04 PM

And you guys don't buy that it's just a movie, huh?  I guess I don't get why stuff like that bothers you.  To each his own, though.  I like my attitude better because it means I enjoy most things.

Did you miss the part where I said I enjoyed the movie?  You guys are trying to paint anyone with criticisms of the movie as intolerant snobs.  Since when did Indiana Jones become a console war?
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« Reply #224 on: June 19, 2008, 12:56:13 AM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 19, 2008, 12:46:55 AM


Did you miss the part where I said I enjoyed the movie?  You guys are trying to paint anyone with criticisms of the movie as intolerant snobs.  Since when did Indiana Jones become a console war?

PS3 Fanboy!  Tongue
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« Reply #225 on: June 19, 2008, 12:57:15 AM »

Quote from: wonderpug on June 19, 2008, 12:46:55 AM

Quote from: The Grue on June 18, 2008, 11:08:04 PM

And you guys don't buy that it's just a movie, huh?  I guess I don't get why stuff like that bothers you.  To each his own, though.  I like my attitude better because it means I enjoy most things.

Did you miss the part where I said I enjoyed the movie?  You guys are trying to paint anyone with criticisms of the movie as intolerant snobs.  Since when did Indiana Jones become a console war?

I wasn't really singling you out or anything.  My beef isn't with people who criticize the new Indy movie, but more about people who nitpick movies in general.  I still maintain the attitude I had when I was a kid where I was happy to be having fun at the movies.  Do I think about realism in movies?  Sure.  I thought the same thing some did with regards to the waterfalls and the nuclear blast.  The difference is I didn't care.
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« Reply #226 on: June 19, 2008, 02:30:34 AM »

Quote
And you guys don't buy that it's just a movie, huh?  I guess I don't get why stuff like that bothers you.  To each his own, though.  I like my attitude better because it means I enjoy most things.

I just don't like my intelligence insulted. The attitude that it's "just a movie" is what keeps Hollywood churning out garbage week after week, with movie lovers having to sort through the trash to find the occasional gem. It bothers me because I love movies, and I want them to get better and better, not dumber and dumber just because the studios can get away with it.

This film struck a particular nerve because it was part of a beloved franchise. If it had been a one-shot deal with a character I really didn't care about, then I would have dismissed it as harmless fluff and went on about my business. Instead I felt literally betrayed. I felt like Lucas & Spielberg, two movie giants who I greatly respect and admire, took a steaming hot dump on my lap and then laughed hysterically as they took my money.


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« Reply #227 on: June 19, 2008, 03:29:43 AM »

Quote from: The Grue on June 18, 2008, 11:08:04 PM

And you guys don't buy that it's just a movie, huh?  I guess I don't get why stuff like that bothers you.  To each his own, though.  I like my attitude better because it means I enjoy most things.

I accept that it was a movie. A very, very bad one.
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« Reply #228 on: June 19, 2008, 05:38:17 AM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 19, 2008, 02:30:34 AM


This film struck a particular nerve because it was part of a beloved franchise. If it had been a one-shot deal with a character I really didn't care about, then I would have dismissed it as harmless fluff and went on about my business. Instead I felt literally betrayed. I felt like Lucas & Spielberg, two movie giants who I greatly respect and admire, took a steaming hot dump on my lap and then laughed hysterically as they took my money.

That's cool, but I felt the movie was no different than previous installments in this regard.  They all have unrealistic stuff.  It was all Indy moving from one danger scenario to another.  They all had some history woven in.  I am not sure how you can feel betrayed about a movie that followed the exact same formula as the previous installments.
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« Reply #229 on: June 19, 2008, 11:17:08 AM »

Quote
I am not sure how you can feel betrayed about a movie that followed the exact same formula as the previous installments.

It didn't follow the formula, that's my whole complaint. The formula has always been Indy seeking out a religious artifact (Temple of Doom veered from this slightly, but religion was still involved). Along the way he gets himself out of some crazy predicaments.

It was never about science fiction, psychic powers, being magically immortal against nuclear bombs, etc. I can see where people could argue that it follows the formula in terms of action, etc. but I think the tone was entirely wrong. I think they took the old Indy, which was grounded in a slightly exaggerated reality where gods existed, and put him in an over-exaggerated reality where gods are replaced by space aliens, and all semblance of religion is thrown out the window.
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« Reply #230 on: June 19, 2008, 12:54:24 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on June 19, 2008, 05:38:17 AM

That's cool, but I felt the movie was no different than previous installments in this regard.  They all have unrealistic stuff.  It was all Indy moving from one danger scenario to another.  They all had some history woven in.  I am not sure how you can feel betrayed about a movie that followed the exact same formula as the previous installments.

We're going in circles. 
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« Reply #231 on: June 19, 2008, 12:58:20 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 19, 2008, 11:17:08 AM

Quote
I am not sure how you can feel betrayed about a movie that followed the exact same formula as the previous installments.

It didn't follow the formula, that's my whole complaint. The formula has always been Indy seeking out a religious artifact (Temple of Doom veered from this slightly, but religion was still involved). Along the way he gets himself out of some crazy predicaments.

It was never about science fiction, psychic powers, being magically immortal against nuclear bombs, etc. I can see where people could argue that it follows the formula in terms of action, etc. but I think the tone was entirely wrong. I think they took the old Indy, which was grounded in a slightly exaggerated reality where gods existed, and put him in an over-exaggerated reality where gods are replaced by space aliens, and all semblance of religion is thrown out the window.

Alright, I see your point, but for me, I've always be interested in the idea of Gods actually being aliens.  I am not religious at all myself, though religion interests me.  One idea that was always entertaining was that ancient civilizations had visitors from aliens, which they then worshipped as gods, who helped them with technology,  So, for me, it isn't a stretch outside of the religious theme, either.
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« Reply #232 on: October 16, 2008, 12:22:23 AM »

I'm working through this movie right now.

It just keeps getting worse and worse. I blame EVERYONE involved.

First off, George Lucas.  I gave him a pass on the new star wars movies because they got better as they progressed (given, anything couldn't be worse than the first one) though he has drug his creation through the mud and I was never that big of a star wars fan beyond childhood.  Because of this movie, I'll punch him in the face if I ever see him.

Spielberg. He's George's puppet. Plain and simple. Grow a pair stephen and go back to the time when you cared about your movies

Harrison Ford: HOw could he not smell a crap script. Money talks.

Shia LeBouf: He's a great actor and should dodged this script like the poo poo it is. Money Talks.

Karen Allen: Oh you. Money talks.

Kate Blanchett: Oscar curse continues.
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« Reply #233 on: October 16, 2008, 01:41:14 AM »

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on October 16, 2008, 12:22:23 AM

Spielberg. He's George's puppet. Plain and simple. Grow a pair stephen and go back to the time when you cared about your movies

icon_lol  That's never been the case.  The Indy films have been a collaboration between them since day one.  Spielberg has had a *ton* of input into these films, including KotCS.  But it's more fashionable to blame Lucas these days so the internet seems to have decided he should take the fall for KotCS. 
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« Reply #234 on: October 16, 2008, 06:50:30 AM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on October 16, 2008, 01:41:14 AM

Quote from: SensuousLettuce on October 16, 2008, 12:22:23 AM

Spielberg. He's George's puppet. Plain and simple. Grow a pair stephen and go back to the time when you cared about your movies

icon_lol  That's never been the case.  The Indy films have been a collaboration between them since day one.  Spielberg has had a *ton* of input into these films, including KotCS.  But it's more fashionable to blame Lucas these days so the internet seems to have decided he should take the fall for KotCS. 

I agree, to a point.  However, most of the mainstream articles I've read have hinted rather strongly that the script was the one Lucas demanded and that Spielberg and Ford relented because they knew it was now or never for another Indy film.  They should have walked away, but that doesn't change Lucas' responsibility.

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« Reply #235 on: October 16, 2008, 01:13:59 PM »

Quote from: Sarkus on October 16, 2008, 06:50:30 AM

I agree, to a point.  However, most of the mainstream articles I've read have hinted rather strongly that the script was the one Lucas demanded and that Spielberg and Ford relented because they knew it was now or never for another Indy film.  They should have walked away, but that doesn't change Lucas' responsibility.

Depends on where your problem with the film lies.  If it's the entire concept- yep, that's pretty much Lucas but he also did the concept for the other three films so you kind of get the good with the bad.  In terms of concrete story stuff, Lucas's material was mainly the first half of the film.  Spielberg's influence on the script and story are most prominently felt in the second (and IMO much inferior half) of the film.  Further, the final shooting script was done by Spielberg's pet screenwriter, David Koepp.  I'll never understand what Spielberg sees in his work, but the shooting draft of KotCS shares many of the pitfalls that have plagued the other Koepp/Spielberg collaborations.  I generally far prefer Spielberg's Koepp-less output.  Koepp seems to be bring out the worst in Spielberg's tendencies.   

I can't recommend enough JW Rinzler's The Complete Making of Indiana Jones:  The Definitive Story Behind All Four Films.  It's an exhaustive look at the entire series and details, for the most part, who was responsible for what in each film. 
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« Reply #236 on: October 16, 2008, 02:33:50 PM »

I look at it this way:

I liked Star Wars.
Lucas fucked up my memories of Star Wars with the newer films.

I liked Indiana Jones.
Seems simple enough to blame him for fucking up again, no?

In the end, who knows who exactly did what where and why. All I know is that IJ5 was a TERRIBLE movie, one that isn't worthy of the IJ name.
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« Reply #237 on: October 16, 2008, 02:41:15 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on October 16, 2008, 02:33:50 PM

I look at it this way:

I liked Star Wars.
Lucas fucked up my memories of Star Wars with the newer films.

I liked Indiana Jones.
Seems simple enough to blame him for fucking up again, no?


But Lucas wrote and directed the new Star Wars movies so of course it makes sense to blame him.  He has absolute and total control of that franchise.  However that is not true of the Indy series.  It's been a collaboration between Spielberg and Lucas from day one and the same held true with KotCS.  Further, Steven Spielberg has final cut and was on the set every single day.  So if anyone should take the majority of the blame (or conversely praise if you liked the movie) for KotCS then it's him. 

Trying to absolve Steven Freakin' Spielberg of blame for a movie that he directed and portraying the most successful director of all time and now a corporate bigwig himself as some sort of straight out of film school patsy being manipulated by an evil overlord is ridiculous. 
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« Reply #238 on: October 16, 2008, 02:45:35 PM »

Quote from: Destructor on October 16, 2008, 02:33:50 PM

I look at it this way:

I liked Star Wars.
Lucas fucked up my memories of Star Wars with the newer films.

I liked Indiana Jones.
Seems simple enough to blame him for fucking up again, no?

In the end, who knows who exactly did what where and why. All I know is that IJ5 was a TERRIBLE movie, one that isn't worthy of the IJ name.

watch one of the recent South Parks and you can see that they both raped Indy equally  icon_twisted
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« Reply #239 on: October 17, 2008, 02:03:15 AM »

This is, by far, one of the worst movies I have ever seen. Ever.

The fact that it is an Indiana Jones movie makes it even worse than one of the worst movies I've ever seen.

There was one great scene at the end though: when the hat blows in and jr.s about to pick it up and IJ is like no way son. That's my hat.

I give it 0 stars.  I should smash the disks so no one else has to endure this copy.
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