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Author Topic: Hillary's legal mandate for health insurance- WTF?!?!?!?  (Read 9302 times)
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th'FOOL
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« on: September 19, 2007, 01:45:13 AM »

Let me preface this by saying I am currently insured via the company I have been contracting with for the past year, and I am currently paying $1000/ month for me, my wife, and two kids.  I have actually just decided to cancel said insurance becuase as a result of it, I cannot even afford to pay the copay on a doctor's visit to make having it worthwhile.  I have also had to jump through numerous hoops to get them to pay for half the shit we have had done on the plan.  In other words, it is a waste and a money-sink, and I would prefer to go pack to the 'pay-as-you-go' method that I operated under for years while freelancing.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070918/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_ap_interview_6


Quote
Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton said Tuesday that a mandate requiring every American to purchase health insurance was the only way to achieve universal health care
Quote
She said she could envision a day when "you have to show proof to your employer that you're insured as a part of the job interview like when your kid goes to school and has to show proof of vaccination," but said such details would be worked out through negotiations with Congress.

Ok, I need a job so I can get insurance, but I have to have insurance before I can get a job- WTF?  Where does this leave the self-employed?  Health Insurance is such a fucking scam these days, but hey, let's make it mandatory to send these scam artists more money.
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2007, 01:52:41 AM »

Genius!
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2007, 02:21:49 AM »

mitt passed it into law when he was gov of mass

i thought it was dumb then, i think its dumb now and hilary totally backing down from the healthcare she believed in (during clinton i act 1) is one of the main reasons i would never vote for her - spineless sell out

i want the young idealist not the blandly electable
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2007, 03:16:56 AM »

Quote from: Doopri on September 19, 2007, 02:21:49 AM

mitt passed it into law when he was gov of mass

i thought it was dumb then, i think its dumb now and hilary totally backing down from the healthcare she believed in (during clinton i act 1) is one of the main reasons i would never vote for her - spineless sell out

i want the young idealist not the blandly electable

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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2007, 03:32:51 AM »



und de insurance vil be MANDATORY!!!!
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2007, 04:15:10 AM »

Let me get this straight...her solution to provide health care insurance to people who don't have health care insurance is to force them to get health care insurance?

She then goes even further and wants you to have health care insurance as a pre-req to getting a job?

That's fucking brain damaged.  retard


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Brendan
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2007, 08:32:32 AM »

Here's where it would pay to actually read about the proposal rather than make judgments based on republican talking points.

If you have insurance you're happy with, you can keep it.  If you don't want to sign up with a private insurance company (and your company doesn't provide insurance), you get a medicare-like plan that offers care at least as good as that of members of congress.  Your health care stays the same regardless of loss of job or serious illness.  Premium payments are limited to a maximum percentage of your income.  Families receive a tax credit to help them pay for it.  Small business receive a tax credit to help them pay for it.  Much of the money comes on letting the bush tax cut on people making $250,000 or more annually lapse.

So, in short, if you've stopped paying for insurance because you have a thousand dollar premium, your premium will now be lower and capped at percentage of your income, you'll get a tax cut to help you offset more of it, if you get fired, your health care doesn't lapse, and you'll get the same dental plan that your senator gets.  Oh, and society benefits as a whole because people have fewer catastrophic illnesses because they're able to get preventative health care, which also ends up costing us less overall.

Yeah, totally awful.  What is she thinking?

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=3321
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2007, 11:31:57 AM »

Quote from: th'FOOL on September 19, 2007, 01:45:13 AM

...I am currently paying $1000/ month for me, my wife, and two kids. ..

Ouch.  Makes me realize how good (and cheap) my insurance is.
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« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2007, 11:40:04 AM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 19, 2007, 08:32:32 AM

Here's where it would pay to actually read about the proposal rather than make judgments based on republican talking points.

If you have insurance you're happy with, you can keep it.  If you don't want to sign up with a private insurance company (and your company doesn't provide insurance), you get a medicare-like plan that offers care at least as good as that of members of congress.  Your health care stays the same regardless of loss of job or serious illness.  Premium payments are limited to a maximum percentage of your income.  Families receive a tax credit to help them pay for it.  Small business receive a tax credit to help them pay for it.  Much of the money comes on letting the bush tax cut on people making $250,000 or more annually lapse.

So, in short, if you've stopped paying for insurance because you have a thousand dollar premium, your premium will now be lower and capped at percentage of your income, you'll get a tax cut to help you offset more of it, if you get fired, your health care doesn't lapse, and you'll get the same dental plan that your senator gets.  Oh, and society benefits as a whole because people have fewer catastrophic illnesses because they're able to get preventative health care, which also ends up costing us less overall.

Yeah, totally awful.  What is she thinking?

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=3321

Good summary for the folks with the knee-jerk reaction.

I pay over $600/mo for my wife and son (with no major medical problems, knock on wood) to insure since my small company doesn't extend health benefits to families.  With my $175 per month premium, it means I'm spending over $9,000 per year on insurance before I pay the first co-pay.  I welcome, nay demand, a reform to this system when simple, standard health care premiums cost more than my monthly mortgage payment.  So that Hillary is trying to make a proposal that actually might help is a welcome sight versus the others who stand with their thumbs up their ass while my take-home pay declines every year once health care and inflation is factored in. 
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2007, 11:54:29 AM »

I'll admit that I didn't read the link before reacting.  That's what I get. 

I definitely think there needs to be some serious reform for the health care in this country, and Brendan's summary sounds a lot more reasonable and useful. 
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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2007, 01:23:29 PM »

I wonder what our universal healthcare costs us Canadians per year.  Whatever the cost, I'm glad I don't live in a place where I'm forced to fend for myself.
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2007, 01:53:21 PM »

Quote from: EngineNo9 on September 19, 2007, 11:54:29 AM

I definitely think there needs to be some serious reform for the health care in this country, and Brendan's summary sounds a lot more reasonable and useful. 

Having worked in a medical related position (pharmacy tech) for, well, longer than I care to admit, I completely and totally agree - health care is absolutely broken in this country. If I was an illegal immigrant, I can just go to the hospital if something is wrong and they're FORCED to treat me, without ANY cost. Or if I'm on a state based insurance for the poor, I can do exactly the same thing.

However, if I'm one of the schmucks who actually works for a living and has health care, I'll be fighting with my insurance for the next six months making sure my multi-thousand dollar bills are properly paid for and that I don't go bankrupt because of them.

Anybody else see a problem with this picture? And don't even get me started on the costs of medications nowadays.
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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2007, 02:03:32 PM »

Quote from: Canuck on September 19, 2007, 01:23:29 PM

I wonder what our universal healthcare costs us Canadians per year.  Whatever the cost, I'm glad I don't live in a place where I'm forced to fend for myself.

+1. The only good thing that came out of the NDP. (or Saskatchewan for that matter slywink)
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2007, 02:30:23 PM »

I rant and rave endlessly about the need for a universal health care system in the US just like the rest of the modern fucking world.

That said, this plan of Hilary's is quite possibly even worse than the plan she put together when Bill was president.

The key to fixing the system is to eliminate the current system of insurance and set up a true universal health care system, not some half-assed "health insurance required" system.
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2007, 02:45:57 PM »

I think she is too concerned with the insurance industry.  There's no reason to have a middle man involved, especially one which has been milking most of the money from the system for decades.
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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2007, 02:58:50 PM »

leave it to brendan to take the wind out of a perfectly healthy knee jerk reaction  disgust
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« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2007, 03:02:51 PM »

Given that we spend far more money per capita on a system that provides barely adequate health care for only 4/5ths of our citizens, I would love a system that doesn't have insurance companies in the middle of it.  Pragmatically, however, this is a half-step that actually does a lot of good for the 47 million people without insurance and the remainder of the country that does have it.  There's so much money wrapped up in lobbying (and purchased politicians) that it would take an even more serious health care crisis to get the political capital together to circumvent the middleman. I'd rather do something now that will ensure that no one goes wanting.  The number of uninsured Americans has continued to climb under Bush, and that's an absolute embarassment to the country. 

Of course, we're dealing with a president who has repeatedly threatened to veto the expansion of the Children's Health Insurance Program, so moral obligations aren't exactly his forte.

I'm particularly sensitive to this issue due to a recent crisis of my own.  The total billed to my insurance company in the last three years as a result?  More than $150,000.  I can't even imagine how awful that would've been for someone with less/no insurance.
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« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2007, 03:10:56 PM »

Wow, I missed your first post in the thread.  Thanks Brendan.

Back when I was a consultant, I had to pay my own insurance.  It was pretty damn expensive, even considering I was getting a discount (the company I consulted through qualified me for discounts through one company).

Well, when the jobs dried up, so did my ability to pay insurance.  I tried keeping up the insurance and hoping to get another job or client or something, but that didn't work out.  Also... with all that money I paid on insurance, I could have been paying for other, more important, things (like food, rent, etc), and my unemployment wouldn't have been such a burden on my family.

It's always amazed me how people gleefully spending $2 billion per month, with zero accountability, can have the audacity to say the country can't afford a health insurance plan.
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« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2007, 03:12:50 PM »

Fool should be looking at HSA's.  (we've discussed the heck out of these things at OO)  Take your 1k/month or part of that and stick it -tax free- into a Health Savings Account.  You use that account to pay for medical expenses.  "But what if something bad happens", you ask?  Well my friend you actually have to have insurance with the HSA but it's high deductible insurance (Like 5k) so you use that.  It's cheap insurance.

"But how will I pay my 5k deductible"? 

You don't - unless you have a big emergency/cancer/serious stuff.  Then you use your HSA to cover the deductible.

Keep in mind the HSA is yours.  It transfers as a part of your estate if anything ever happens to you.  It is probably what you should be doing right now. slywink
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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2007, 03:23:11 PM »

The biggest problem with the proposal is the 100% reliance on insurance companies, who we already know are 90% responsible for the fucked up state of care in this country already. Forcing people to get insurance from a company that will do its damndest to avoid having to actually pay a claim is not true health care. You can call it COVERAGE, as long as you walk in knowing full well what that term actually means. Hillary's calling this a health care plan is disingenuous bullshit.

That said, the true devil is in the details.

* This is a brand new program that will require massive infrastructure and money to implement and support, and yet the phrase "tax credit" is used in multiple places. I'd really like to see some examples with numbers illustrating how this will work.
* Also overused is the phrase "reduced spending". It's true insurance companies hate spending money, but they do so by gouging the fuck out of the rest of us and not paying claims. I don't see insurance companies increasing their workload by 1,000% and accepting less money to boot.
* I am really, really curious about this phrase: "you have to show proof to your employer that you're insured as a part of the job interview". My initial suspicion is she threw that in there to combat fears of illegal immigrations getting benefits. But it does leave some crazy implications for middle class workers who get laid off and are forcibly raped by COBRA until they find new coverage. I REALLY want more details here.
* Most worrying of all is that this plan doesn't sound that different from Bush's own plan. Again, it all comes back to a Democrat acting like a Republican to fool Republicans into voting for them.
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2007, 03:26:25 PM »

Insurance Companies --> Big Lobby Group --> Money in Politicians Pocket = Hard working middle class gets screwed

In order to fix any problem the US needs to remove lobby groups from the picture. Until that time, we will get what the politicians are being paid to offer.

The reason our health care is not as good as it could be is because the number one function of medical facilities and insurance companies is to make money.
Your health care takes a back seat to that and always will as long as there is money to be made.
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2007, 04:15:51 PM »

I would suggest the government create a crown corporation that offered competitive rates for low-middle-income classes to reduce the cost of insurance. The rates insurance companies charge would be undercut by the new insurer and as a "government" initiative it should have the best interests at heart. It should be fair and competitive; the problem as I see it is that since your intermediate care isn't there your critical care is overused and drives up the cost to insurers, thusly driving up the rates passed on to consumers.

Once you have market stabilization the government insurer can be used to keep fair market rates and insure those who "fail" insurability in the private sector so that no one goes without basic coverage.

Or you can put in something like Canada's healthcare system, but the risk there is that the entire medical industry needs to overhaul its rates as the astronomical rates doctors are being paid would bankrupt your country faster than a Commander-in-chief hillbilly picking a fight in the middle-east.
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2007, 04:47:59 PM »

Quote from: Brendan
Given that we spend far more money per capita on a system that provides barely adequate health care for only 4/5ths of our citizens, I would love a system that doesn't have insurance companies in the middle of it.  Pragmatically, however, this is a half-step that actually does a lot of good for the 47 million people without insurance and the remainder of the country that does have it.  There's so much money wrapped up in lobbying (and purchased politicians) that it would take an even more serious health care crisis to get the political capital together to circumvent the middleman. I'd rather do something now that will ensure that no one goes wanting.  The number of uninsured Americans has continued to climb under Bush, and that's an absolute embarassment to the country.

We should study systems that work then: Italy, France, Japan, Sweden; take your pick. There are others in the top 10 in the world for average quality of health care. Ignore Canada, America, and the UK, all of which fall far lower.

Quote from: Brendan
I'm particularly sensitive to this issue due to a recent crisis of my own.  The total billed to my insurance company in the last three years as a result?  More than $150,000.  I can't even imagine how awful that would've been for someone with less/no insurance.

Universal Health Care is my pet topic of all pet topics. I've spent nearly half my life (started around 15, I turn 30 next month) fighting the medical insurance industry for coverage and treatments for conditions I have that require care and they love nothing more than to do all they can to deny it. I'm fucking sick of dealing with the "health insurance" industry.

I've BEEN that guy with less/no insurance. And the plan that Hilary proposes, were it in effect during the past ten years in particular for me, wouldn't have provided much help for me at all.
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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2007, 05:46:23 PM »

I think we're essentially in agreement.  I would love a plan like Sweden's, but it's not going to happen with the current crop of elected officials.  This plan (which is very similar to John Edwards' plan) is politically viable.

This plan leaves in place everyone's existing health care options, but also extends public insurance (the Federal Employees Health Benefit Plan) to every American, with no restrictions.  The only real risk is that private insurers will market their own plans to young and healthy people, leaving all the risk of covering old/sick people to the FEHBP.  Of course, the government plans are cheaper to administer than the private ones.  Ironic, huh?  Germany and a few other countries levy taxes on insurers with overly healthy pools to prevent that sort of gaming of the system, but I'm sure that won't fly here with the HMO lobby.

Here's the other thing that's important if you decide to keep your current plan:  the industry would not be allowed to price discriminate based on pre-existing conditions or demographic information.  They couldn't refuse you coverage or prevent you from renewing, even if you change your job.  That should assuage some of noun's concerns, I think.

Yes, the devil's in the details, and we'll need more of those before we can pass judgment.  But this is actually considerably different than El Presidente's plan, and more than a half-measure to get us to a world where people can, y'know, afford to go see the doctor.
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« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2007, 05:56:33 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 19, 2007, 05:46:23 PM

I think we're essentially in agreement.  I would love a plan like Sweden's, but it's not going to happen with the current crop of elected officials.  This plan (which is very similar to John Edwards' plan) is politically viable.

Yeah, we probably are, I'm just not happy with half-steps. icon_wink

I want to know exactly what the federal fall-back plan's coverage is like. I want to know if insurers will be required to provide coverage for medical treatments that are prescribed by doctors, rather than letting insurers play doctor and decide what you need rather than your physician (that's been the biggest headache in my ongoing fight for care).

The analogy to car insurance is a poor one. Think of all the times when cheap auto insurance (because a person can't afford better) leaves people in the lurch after an accident.

Long-term, honestly, the health insurance industry needs to be completely done away with and supplanted by a universal, much more efficient and effective system.
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« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2007, 06:05:25 PM »

As far as the cost goes, it's still only 1/10th of the cost of the Iraq war.  It saves a helluva lot more American lives, too.
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« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2007, 06:19:34 PM »

Quote from: Doopri on September 19, 2007, 02:21:49 AM

mitt passed it into law when he was gov of mass

But that was then.  This is, like, an entirely different week.
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« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2007, 07:49:55 PM »

Horrible idea, i pay 58 bucks a month right now for my health care coverage from my employer, and its damn good coverage too.   Ill be paying far more in taxes for a crappy plan from the government where billions of dollars will be wasted.   Well I wasnt voting for Comrade Hillary anyway, but this just reinforces how correct that choice is.
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« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2007, 08:09:52 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 19, 2007, 05:46:23 PM

Yes, the devil's in the details, and we'll need more of those before we can pass judgment.  But this is actually considerably different than El Presidente's plan, and more than a half-measure to get us to a world where people can, y'know, afford to go see the doctor.

I don't know. With all the compromises, this plan as currently written seems pretty toothless. Still, I'm sure she'll be forced to talk about it constantly over the next year so some more clues should be evident soon.
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« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2007, 08:14:04 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on September 19, 2007, 07:49:55 PM

Horrible idea, i pay 58 bucks a month right now for my health care coverage from my employer, and its damn good coverage too.

Sure wish I had access to damn good coverage, even for 2-3 times that price. Fortunately in the USA, we have a good free market health care system that provides choice: choose to go with whatever your employer provides, or choose to hope that you don't have any pre-existing conditions that need coverage. icon_evil
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« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2007, 08:14:45 PM »

Quote from: brettmcd on September 19, 2007, 07:49:55 PM

Horrible idea, i pay 58 bucks a month right now for my health care coverage from my employer, and its damn good coverage too.   Ill be paying far more in taxes for a crappy plan from the government where billions of dollars will be wasted.   Well I wasnt voting for Comrade Hillary anyway, but this just reinforces how correct that choice is.

You don't have to change your current health care.  And your taxes won't go up - unless you're telling us you make more than $250k a year.
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« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2007, 08:26:55 PM »

Oh, and "Comrade Hillary"?  Thanks for the flashback to 1994.
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« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2007, 08:58:38 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 19, 2007, 08:14:45 PM

  And your taxes won't go up -


That is the big question.  I know the plan calls for no raising of taxes, but I find it very hard to believe that this will be paid for by just rolling back the Bush tax cuts to the top 5%. 

Everybody is in favor of universal health care. The problem is nobody wants to pay for it.

Also I think Hillary realizes that without including the insurance companies in the plan it has zero chance of actually being implemented.  A lesson she learned back in the 90's during Bubba's time as President.
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« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2007, 09:09:16 PM »

Everyone that buys into the Hillary plan beware what you ask for.  The money to pay for the people without insurance that the government would cover has to come from somewhere; the government cant just print more so what does that mean?  The people working will be paying to foot the bill so that means higher taxes.

You choose to be a consultant or work independently then you choose to cover yourself insurance wise.  Temp agencies and contracting jobs do not provide good benefits.  I left a temp agency where I made more money but to cover my wife with health insurance was expensive so I went to a job with great benefits and took a paycut by $3/hour.  I have worked there ten years and make a pretty good amount of money now and have good benefits.

Universal health care is similar to what the military has.  Its decent health care for the active duty but dependents take a back seat and the appointments get canceled or delayed.  Hell I needed a cast on a broken hand in Okinawa Japan and it took 3 weeks to get it done, two weeks for the appointment and then they canceled it due to some emergency and rescheduled by the time I could get the cast I didn't need it; I had kept the splint on.


Kinda funny that people are behind this when they so like to bash the government for not being able to get anything right on these boards.
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« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2007, 10:00:23 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 19, 2007, 08:14:45 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on September 19, 2007, 07:49:55 PM

Horrible idea, i pay 58 bucks a month right now for my health care coverage from my employer, and its damn good coverage too.   Ill be paying far more in taxes for a crappy plan from the government where billions of dollars will be wasted.   Well I wasnt voting for Comrade Hillary anyway, but this just reinforces how correct that choice is.

You don't have to change your current health care.  And your taxes won't go up - unless you're telling us you make more than $250k a year.

Sure employers are really going to pay for their own coverage plans, spend more money and watch their competitors that decide to let the government take care of everything get by with paying less money.   Yep im really sure thats going to happen.   The government cant run the health care plans it already has with any type of efficiency, what makes anyone think they can handle such a huge plan?   

Also you are dreaming if you think that this can only be paid for by putting even more of a tax burden on people who you dont like just because they make more money then you.
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brettmcd
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« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2007, 10:01:07 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 19, 2007, 08:26:55 PM

Oh, and "Comrade Hillary"?  Thanks for the flashback to 1994.

Well when the title fits someone as well as it does her....
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Brendan
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« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2007, 10:42:10 PM »

"Even more of a tax burden"?  You must live in a pleasant parallel universe where the super-wealthy pay a reasonable amount of taxes.  In my world, people making 115k or more pay an average of 19 cents on the dollar in taxes, whereas people making less than eight thousand dollars pay 18 cents.  Man, it's rough to be rich.  I've seen your previous posts on taxes, so I'll assume there's no convincing you, but it has to be said for all the people who can reason through this.

Your other objections are similarly lame.  Large employers will be required to offer coverage to employees or contribute to the cost of coverage, so they can't just dump people onto the government plan.  Small business get a tax break for their contributions.  People with incredibly awesome health coverage will have those plans subject to taxation.

As for your quip about efficiency, guess what the best health care in the country's from?  Oh, huh, the VA.  Before you come up with some bullshit line about Walter Reed - let me preempt you.  Walter Reed had been privatized.

Any talking points left?

For those of you with honest opinions, I forgot to mention earlier:  Hillary's plan would also allow the federal government to negotiate lower drug prices, unlike the plan under our current executive, who's seemingly more interested in enriching big pharma.

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Blackadar
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« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2007, 11:45:55 PM »

Quote from: Farscry on September 19, 2007, 08:14:04 PM

Quote from: brettmcd on September 19, 2007, 07:49:55 PM

Horrible idea, i pay 58 bucks a month right now for my health care coverage from my employer, and its damn good coverage too.

Sure wish I had access to damn good coverage, even for 2-3 times that price. Fortunately in the USA, we have a good free market health care system that provides choice: choose to go with whatever your employer provides, or choose to hope that you don't have any pre-existing conditions that need coverage. icon_evil

Yup.  My father is a very healthy diabetic.  Before he turned 65, his insurance premiums were over $20,000/year for catastrophic coverage ($5,000 deductible).  As I said above, I pay more in premiums than I pay in mortgage payments per month simply because we choose not to have two parents working full-time.  In many respects, I'd be better off financially if I just dropped coverage and said, "fuck it, I'll declare bankruptcy if something really bad happens".  That's how broken our system is today.

I think the usual suspects are simply in "OMG!! HILLARY IZ PROPOZING TEH HEALTH KARE COVEREGEE AGAIN" mode without regard to any details of the plan.  As Hillary said - if you don't like it, propose something better.  I've yet to see any substantial proposals from most anyone on either side of the spectrum that might help the middle class deal with paying for health care. 
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denoginizer
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« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2007, 11:48:10 PM »

Quote from: Brendan on September 19, 2007, 10:42:10 PM

"Even more of a tax burden"?  You must live in a pleasant parallel universe where the super-wealthy pay a reasonable amount of taxes.  In my world, people making 115k or more pay an average of 19 cents on the dollar in taxes, whereas people making less than eight thousand dollars pay 18 cents.  Man, it's rough to be rich.  I've seen your previous posts on taxes, so I'll assume there's no convincing you, but it has to be said for all the people who can reason through this.

In fairness that Seattle Times article you quoted was from 2004 and quotes 2001 statistcs.  I'm not sure about you, but I fall in the 100-115k range and I paid more than 19% of my income in taxes in 2006. 
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Blackadar
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« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2007, 11:50:21 PM »

Quote from: denoginizer on September 19, 2007, 11:48:10 PM

Quote from: Brendan on September 19, 2007, 10:42:10 PM

"Even more of a tax burden"?  You must live in a pleasant parallel universe where the super-wealthy pay a reasonable amount of taxes.  In my world, people making 115k or more pay an average of 19 cents on the dollar in taxes, whereas people making less than eight thousand dollars pay 18 cents.  Man, it's rough to be rich.  I've seen your previous posts on taxes, so I'll assume there's no convincing you, but it has to be said for all the people who can reason through this.

In fairness that Seattle Times article you quoted was from 2004 and quotes 2001 statistcs.  I'm not sure about you, but I fall in the 100-115k range and I paid more than 19% of my income in taxes in 2006. 

Given Bush's tax cuts for the rich since that time, it very likely may be lower than 19% now.
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