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Author Topic: Hi-Def War to end at CES 2008...?  (Read 15968 times)
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Kevin Grey
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« Reply #200 on: January 09, 2008, 06:26:54 PM »

C' mon guys.  This little pissing contest is silly. 
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« Reply #201 on: January 09, 2008, 06:29:45 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 09, 2008, 06:26:54 PM

C' mon guys.  This little pissing contest is silly. 
Kevin, with all due respect (and I think the love we share should be evidence of this), its not a pissing contest. I am stating facts, Purge finds it difficult to accept them without adding substantial modifiers to the misinformation he posted. It was a flawed, biased premise to begin with. Disagreeing with someone using factual evidence and anecdotes is not valid anymore? I truly do not understand.
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« Reply #202 on: January 09, 2008, 06:33:58 PM »

It's a tonal thing.  Discussion is great but badgering someone to admit that they are wrong is poor form.
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« Reply #203 on: January 09, 2008, 06:37:08 PM »

So you're saying that Sony has no financial interest in HDJ? Or that Sony's refusal to meet half-way on the standards set by the DVD consortium, or their repeated attempts to establish a standard by which to print money (Mini Disc, Memory Stick, Beta, etc.. etc.. ) isn't a patterned behaviour of a corporation gaining control of the industry? Lets look at price comparisons across memory sticks right now, shall we? Oh, how much is a 4GB chip go for on the different.... nevermind. Let's look at what I ACTUALLY SAID vs what you read:

Quote from: Purge on January 09, 2008, 02:48:15 PM

Sort of ... I was wrong that Sony was to blame for the whole deal. Toshiba ultimately pulled back, and then HP put forth a last ditch attempt to bridge the gap and Sony were the last to "walk away" from the bargaining table.

I didn't once say that Sony was wrong to walk away from the bargaining table in that admission; I was pointing out where I got the impression that Sony was the ones to kill the deal. They weren't. Back when this happened there wasn't the full disclosure that we now have, so my memory (and lack of reading up on it) is where I got the impression.

I needed to research this (thanks for pointing it out), and you just need to READ what people say and tone down your dormant Rage. Tongue

edit: note- this was written before KG's interjection; there is no backpedalling here.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 06:39:06 PM by Purge » Logged

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« Reply #204 on: January 09, 2008, 06:37:47 PM »

Ok then, there are a few dozen topics with an abundance of nonsensical non-sequiturs that I can keep myself occupied with. I can even alliterate while doing it, apparently.
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« Reply #205 on: January 09, 2008, 06:44:07 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 09, 2008, 06:33:58 PM

It's a tonal thing.  Discussion is great but badgering someone to admit that they are wrong is poor form.

I don't think it's a problem if the person in question insists on stirring the pot even if he's been proven wrong & writing non-facts as being factual.  Then I think it's OK to call him out on it.

Put down the shovel, Purgie.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 06:47:22 PM by depward » Logged

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« Reply #206 on: January 09, 2008, 07:03:59 PM »

Dep,

thanks for that; I was two pennies shy of being able to buy a coffee.

Spoiler for Non-facts:
Source
Quote from: wikipedia
Competition from HD DVD
The DVD Forum (which was chaired by Toshiba) was deeply split over whether to go with the more expensive blue lasers or not. In addition, the proposed Blu-ray Disc with its protective caddy was both expensive and physically different from DVD, posing several problems.[10] In March 2002, the forum voted to approve a proposal endorsed by Warner Bros. and other motion picture studios that involved compressing HD content onto dual-layer DVD-9 discs.[11][12] However, in spite of this decision, the DVD Forum's Steering Committee announced in April that it was pursuing its own blue-laser high-definition solution.[13] In August, Toshiba and NEC announced their competing standard Advanced Optical Disc.[14] It was finally adopted by the DVD forum and renamed HD DVD the next year,[15] after being voted down twice by Blu-ray Disc Association members, prompting the U.S. Department of Justice to make preliminary investigations into the situation.[16][17] Three new members had to be invited and the voting rules changed before the vote finally passed.[18][19]

In the mean time, Sony spun off Professional Disc for DATA from the Blu-ray Disc project. It was essentially Blu-ray Disc with higher-quality media and components. The devices were too expensive for the consumer mass market. Instead, it was aimed at the professional data storage space market as a replacement for their line of 5.25" MO drives. It was announced in October 2003, with the first devices shipping in December of the same year.[20][21]


[edit] Attempts to avoid a format war
The costs of a format war are large, both for consumers and for the industry. In an attempt to avoid starting one, the Blu-ray Disc Association and the DVD Forum attempted to negotiate a compromise in early 2005. One of the issues was that the Blu-ray Disc camp wanted to use a Java-based platform for interactivity (BD-J), while the DVD Forum was promoting Microsoft's "iHD" (which became HDi).[22] A much larger issue, though, was the physical formats of the discs themselves; the Blu-ray Disc member companies did not want to risk losing billions of dollars in royalties as they had done with standard DVD.[23] An agreement seemed close, but negotiations proceeded slowly.[24]

At the end of June 2005, Sun announced that the Blu-ray Disc Association had chosen the Java-based BD-J interactivity layer instead of Microsoft's HDi. This was based on a BDA board vote favouring BD-J 10 to 4, despite a technical committee previously favouring HDi by a vote of 7 to 5.[25] At the same time, Microsoft and Toshiba jointly announced that they would cooperate in developing high-definition DVD players.[26] In a top-level meeting in July, Microsoft's Bill Gates argued that the Blu-ray Disc standard had to change to "work more smoothly with personal computers". The Blu-ray Disc Association's representatives defended the technology.[27]

On August 22, 2005, the Blu-ray Disc Association and DVD Forum announced that the negotiations to unify their standards had failed.[28] Rumours surfaced that an "unnamed partner" had pressured Toshiba to stick with HD DVD—in spite of Blu-ray Disc's strong support among Hollywood studios and some analysts saying that HD DVD's days were numbered—but these rumours were denied by the parties involved; instead, the same reasons of physical format incompatibility were cited.[23][27] At the end of September, Microsoft and Intel jointly announced their support for HD DVD.[29]

Hewlett-Packard (HP) made a last attempt to broker a peace between Blu-ray Disc Association and Microsoft. The company demanded that the Blu-ray Disc Association adopt Microsoft's HDi instead of its own Java solution, and that Blu-ray Disc adopt a mandatory managed copy feature. If the demands weren't met, HP threatened to support HD DVD instead.[30] In a research report, Gartner analysts Van Baker, Laura Behrens and Mike McGuire wrote that if HP's proposal was accepted, Blu-ray Disc would become the winner of the format war.[31] However, the Blu-ray Disc group did not accept HP's proposal.[32]

Quote
The current 18 board members (as of December 2007) are:[5]

Apple Inc.
Dell
Hewlett Packard
Hitachi
LG Electronics
Mitsubishi Electric
Panasonic (Matsushita Electric)
Pioneer Corporation
Royal Philips Electronics
Samsung Electronics
Sharp Corporation
Sony Corporation
Sun Microsystems
TDK Corporation
Thomson
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney Motion Pictures Group / Buena Vista Home Entertainment
Warner Home Video Inc. (Exclusively as of January 4 2008)

In an association, what is the only bargaining chip a company can put on the line? Oh, yeah, their association TO said group. Clearly it hadn't kept them from coming back. According to the information above, it would seem that the operability in computers was MS's chief concern. Also, you can say what you want about closed-door pressure from MS; it isn't based on FACT (wikipedia reliability notwithstanding).

So any word on whether Paramount is dropping the other shoe?
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« Reply #207 on: January 09, 2008, 08:35:14 PM »

new line dropped them officially, effective immediately.  so, that means the eventual re-release of the LotR movies will be blu ray only. 

i do wonder about the validity of the paramount rumor and what universal has planned.  my guess is they will announce the swap soon too. 
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« Reply #208 on: January 09, 2008, 08:40:35 PM »

Quote from: Caine on January 09, 2008, 08:35:14 PM

i do wonder about the validity of the paramount rumor and what universal has planned.  my guess is they will announce the swap soon too. 

They may wait to see what Toshiba is going to do.  There is some speculation that Toshiba may go into talks about methods on how they can bow out gracefully (ie breaks on Bluray licensing fees).  If Toshiba officially throws in the towel then it would be that much easier for Paramount and Universal to break any contracts that they may have with HD-DVD.

If I were Sony, I would be negotiating to get use of the DVD name from Toshiba. I still think HD-DVD is a much more common sense name to consumers than Bluray.  So it might be advantageous if Bluray could be advertised with the DVD logo associated with it. 
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« Reply #209 on: January 09, 2008, 08:43:40 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 09, 2008, 08:40:35 PM

Quote from: Caine on January 09, 2008, 08:35:14 PM

i do wonder about the validity of the paramount rumor and what universal has planned.  my guess is they will announce the swap soon too. 

They may wait to see what Toshiba is going to do.  There is some speculation that Toshiba may go into talks about methods on how they can bow out gracefully (ie breaks on Bluray licensing fees).  If Toshiba officially throws in the towel then it would be that much easier for Paramount and Universal to break any contracts that they may have with HD-DVD.

If I were Sony, I would be negotiating to get use of the DVD name from Toshiba. I still think HD-DVD is a much more common sense name to consumers than Bluray.  So it might be advantageous if Bluray could be advertised with the DVD logo associated with it. 

Yeah, I'd have to agree.  Branding wise?  HD-DVD > Blu-ray
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« Reply #210 on: January 09, 2008, 09:03:39 PM »

label them as BR-DVD.  that would help a bit i think.

btw, have you seen the sd-hd comparison shots of lotr?  very nice. 
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« Reply #211 on: January 09, 2008, 09:12:13 PM »

Quote from: Caine on January 09, 2008, 09:03:39 PM

label them as BR-DVD.  that would help a bit i think.

btw, have you seen the sd-hd comparison shots of lotr?  very nice. 

I frequently incorrectly say BR-DVD when talking to people. I think its the best solution by far.
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« Reply #212 on: January 09, 2008, 09:46:27 PM »

Oooooh... Predator on Blu-Ray. drool

Nice, apparently Commando is too.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 02:21:39 AM by Simon » Logged
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« Reply #213 on: January 10, 2008, 01:22:13 AM »

Do older movies look that much better in HD? I'd imagine the modern HD cameras bring stuff more to life onscreen.

I've only seen "new" movies on BD-and-HD DVD's.
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« Reply #214 on: January 10, 2008, 01:26:27 AM »

Quote from: Purge on January 10, 2008, 01:22:13 AM

Do older movies look that much better in HD? I'd imagine the modern HD cameras bring stuff more to life onscreen.

I've only seen "new" movies on BD-and-HD DVD's.

Older movies can look every bit as good.  35mm and above film has a higher resolution than 1080p.  They are subject to deterioration though, so the end results often depend either on the shape of the original negative or how much effort the studio put into restoring the picture.  I watched the new Close Encounters and Blade Runner BDs last week and both were incredibly stunning and, frankly, they look better than some recent movies. 
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« Reply #215 on: January 10, 2008, 01:38:14 AM »

More from DigitalBits....he seems to think that Feb is when some new announcements will be made:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents
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« Reply #216 on: January 10, 2008, 03:36:00 AM »

Yeah, I knew that the 35mm film was "better" as it wasn't restricted to digital encoding, I thought since it was forced through the encoding process (and this was esp. true of non-animorphic) methods that you got something that benefitted from 480i's  "free antialiasing".

I didn't know how that would translate to going to HD; I guess if a studio puts enough money into it they can get some amazing results.

This gives me hope; I'll be getting the Blade Runner HD/BD as soon as I get my impatient hands on a high def player.

My gf is going to kill me on that day.  Mark my words.
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« Reply #217 on: January 10, 2008, 03:39:21 AM »

Variety article stating that Universal is no longer contractually obligated to HD-DVD buy doesn't have plans to move yet:

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117978760.html?categoryid=20&cs=1

Personally, I wish either Universal or Paramount would budge sooner rather than later.  I think that would be the lynchpin to completely end the war ASAP (ie retailers pulling HD-DVD hardware off the shelf, software into bargain bins).  As it is, I think the war is effectively over but that the status quo will linger for a a while yet.  Retailer response seems to be "well, we're leaning toward Blu-ray now but won't make any changes yet" and with Warners committed to their HD-DVD releases for the next several months, retailer shelf space isn't likely to change any time soon.  So to "normal" consumers (ie people who don't follow CES), the situation in stores today is the same as it was last week and that same level of consumer confusion remains. 
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« Reply #218 on: January 10, 2008, 03:57:09 AM »

Quote from: Purge on January 10, 2008, 03:36:00 AM

Yeah, I knew that the 35mm film was "better" as it wasn't restricted to digital encoding, I thought since it was forced through the encoding process (and this was esp. true of non-animorphic) methods that you got something that benefitted from 480i's  "free antialiasing".

I didn't know how that would translate to going to HD; I guess if a studio puts enough money into it they can get some amazing results.

This gives me hope; I'll be getting the Blade Runner HD/BD as soon as I get my impatient hands on a high def player.

My gf is going to kill me on that day.  Mark my words.

Wikipedia has a nice listing of the equivalent film resolution for different film stocks.  The most common in use today is the Super 35 format, which has the equivalent resolution of 1420x3390.
 
Quality depends on the encode.  When studios first started doing HD transfers about a decade ago the results could be a bit dodgy and were done at pretty low resolution.  Since then they moved on to 2K encodes (1080p equivalent) and now are doing 4K encodes.

Here's a great article about the work that Warner Bros. did making the new 4K master for Blade Runner:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/features/2624/blade-runner-how-great-hd-is-made.html
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« Reply #219 on: January 10, 2008, 04:02:25 AM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 10, 2008, 03:39:21 AM

Variety article stating that Universal is no longer contractually obligated to HD-DVD buy doesn't have plans to move yet:

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117978760.html?categoryid=20&cs=1

Personally, I wish either Universal or Paramount would budge sooner rather than later.  I think that would be the lynchpin to completely end the war ASAP (ie retailers pulling HD-DVD hardware off the shelf, software into bargain bins).  As it is, I think the war is effectively over but that the status quo will linger for a a while yet.  Retailer response seems to be "well, we're leaning toward Blu-ray now but won't make any changes yet" and with Warners committed to their HD-DVD releases for the next several months, retailer shelf space isn't likely to change any time soon.  So to "normal" consumers (ie people who don't follow CES), the situation in stores today is the same as it was last week and that same level of consumer confusion remains. 

I really cannot imagine any utility in waiting. Come on now Universal/Paramount. We know whats coming. It's done. It's over. Lets finish it.
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« Reply #220 on: January 10, 2008, 04:07:57 AM »

Quote from: Calvin on January 10, 2008, 04:02:25 AM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 10, 2008, 03:39:21 AM

Variety article stating that Universal is no longer contractually obligated to HD-DVD buy doesn't have plans to move yet:

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117978760.html?categoryid=20&cs=1

Personally, I wish either Universal or Paramount would budge sooner rather than later.  I think that would be the lynchpin to completely end the war ASAP (ie retailers pulling HD-DVD hardware off the shelf, software into bargain bins).  As it is, I think the war is effectively over but that the status quo will linger for a a while yet.  Retailer response seems to be "well, we're leaning toward Blu-ray now but won't make any changes yet" and with Warners committed to their HD-DVD releases for the next several months, retailer shelf space isn't likely to change any time soon.  So to "normal" consumers (ie people who don't follow CES), the situation in stores today is the same as it was last week and that same level of consumer confusion remains. 

I really cannot imagine any utility in waiting. Come on now Universal/Paramount. We know whats coming. It's done. It's over. Lets finish it.

The LA Times article linked from the Bits link makes a good point about some of the parties wanting to avoid a flood of returns post-Christmas.  It's kind of evil, but some of these parties may be waiting out the 30 day after Christmas return policy that most retailers use. 
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« Reply #221 on: January 10, 2008, 04:11:21 AM »

It would be classy if a mfgr would offer a trade-in incentive.

That would have been more likely in a war, not on the eve of the victory though.
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« Reply #222 on: January 10, 2008, 07:05:51 AM »

Quote from: Purge
This gives me hope; I'll be getting the Blade Runner HD/BD as soon as I get my impatient hands on a high def player.

You'll be impressed when you watch it. Happy even.

At least until your girlfriend gets to the killing anyway.
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« Reply #223 on: January 10, 2008, 12:37:38 PM »

Yeah... I'm already developing signs of death. slywink
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« Reply #224 on: January 10, 2008, 12:46:34 PM »

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 10, 2008, 04:07:57 AM

Quote from: Calvin on January 10, 2008, 04:02:25 AM

Quote from: Kevin Grey on January 10, 2008, 03:39:21 AM

Variety article stating that Universal is no longer contractually obligated to HD-DVD buy doesn't have plans to move yet:

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117978760.html?categoryid=20&cs=1

Personally, I wish either Universal or Paramount would budge sooner rather than later.  I think that would be the lynchpin to completely end the war ASAP (ie retailers pulling HD-DVD hardware off the shelf, software into bargain bins).  As it is, I think the war is effectively over but that the status quo will linger for a a while yet.  Retailer response seems to be "well, we're leaning toward Blu-ray now but won't make any changes yet" and with Warners committed to their HD-DVD releases for the next several months, retailer shelf space isn't likely to change any time soon.  So to "normal" consumers (ie people who don't follow CES), the situation in stores today is the same as it was last week and that same level of consumer confusion remains. 

I really cannot imagine any utility in waiting. Come on now Universal/Paramount. We know whats coming. It's done. It's over. Lets finish it.

The LA Times article linked from the Bits link makes a good point about some of the parties wanting to avoid a flood of returns post-Christmas.  It's kind of evil, but some of these parties may be waiting out the 30 day after Christmas return policy that most retailers use. 

No, thats apparentkly the factor I glossed over. That makes perfect sense.
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« Reply #225 on: January 10, 2008, 10:21:46 PM »

It's over. BluRay gets teh porn.

http://www.t3.com/news/blu-ray-porn?=35064
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« Reply #226 on: January 10, 2008, 10:45:22 PM »

So here's my next question: How does this effect Microsoft since the 360 has a HD-DVD drive?
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« Reply #227 on: January 10, 2008, 11:33:04 PM »

Quote from: noun on January 10, 2008, 10:45:22 PM

So here's my next question: How does this effect Microsoft since the 360 has a HD-DVD drive?

They've already said that they would consider doing a Blu-ray add-on if things swing definitively that way. MS is focusing on movie downloads right now though.

Link
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« Reply #228 on: January 10, 2008, 11:39:55 PM »

Quote from: noun on January 10, 2008, 10:45:22 PM

So here's my next question: How does this effect Microsoft since the 360 has a HD-DVD drive?

They will simply cut their losses, likely offer a blu ray addon, and continue to tie their hopes and dreams to the very far off digital download future.
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« Reply #229 on: January 11, 2008, 01:42:34 AM »

I hear landfills work well for unwanted things.
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« Reply #230 on: January 11, 2008, 03:59:19 AM »

I was going to ask about this.  yup, that's all that's needed....

Quote from: Jag on January 10, 2008, 10:21:46 PM

It's over. BluRay gets teh porn.

http://www.t3.com/news/blu-ray-porn?=35064
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« Reply #231 on: January 11, 2008, 01:49:13 PM »

Quote from: hitbyambulance on January 11, 2008, 03:59:19 AM

I was going to ask about this.  yup, that's all that's needed....

Quote from: Jag on January 10, 2008, 10:21:46 PM

It's over. BluRay gets teh porn.

http://www.t3.com/news/blu-ray-porn?=35064

Bomchicka-bow-wow!  Yep, Blu-Ray wins.
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« Reply #232 on: January 11, 2008, 03:24:18 PM »

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on January 11, 2008, 01:49:13 PM

Quote from: hitbyambulance on January 11, 2008, 03:59:19 AM

I was going to ask about this.  yup, that's all that's needed....

Quote from: Jag on January 10, 2008, 10:21:46 PM

It's over. BluRay gets teh porn.

http://www.t3.com/news/blu-ray-porn?=35064

Bomchicka-bow-wow!  Yep, Blu-Ray wins.

yeah, buy porn on Blu Ray to support single moms!  icon_twisted
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« Reply #233 on: January 11, 2008, 03:39:48 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on January 11, 2008, 03:24:18 PM

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on January 11, 2008, 01:49:13 PM

Quote from: hitbyambulance on January 11, 2008, 03:59:19 AM

I was going to ask about this.  yup, that's all that's needed....

Quote from: Jag on January 10, 2008, 10:21:46 PM

It's over. BluRay gets teh porn.

http://www.t3.com/news/blu-ray-porn?=35064

Bomchicka-bow-wow!  Yep, Blu-Ray wins.

yeah, buy porn on Blu Ray to support single moms!  icon_twisted

Speaking of which, yours called again. Please tell her that I'm spoken for, kthx. icon_twisted
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« Reply #234 on: January 11, 2008, 03:50:05 PM »

Quote from: whiteboyskim on January 11, 2008, 03:39:48 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on January 11, 2008, 03:24:18 PM

Quote from: Knightshade Dragon on January 11, 2008, 01:49:13 PM

Quote from: hitbyambulance on January 11, 2008, 03:59:19 AM

I was going to ask about this.  yup, that's all that's needed....

Quote from: Jag on January 10, 2008, 10:21:46 PM

It's over. BluRay gets teh porn.

http://www.t3.com/news/blu-ray-porn?=35064

Bomchicka-bow-wow!  Yep, Blu-Ray wins.

yeah, buy porn on Blu Ray to support single moms!  icon_twisted

Speaking of which, yours called again. Please tell her that I'm spoken for, kthx. icon_twisted

Only if you get yours to back off too.  I don't want her showing me any more pictures of you Furry phase  Tongue
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« Reply #235 on: January 11, 2008, 11:38:47 PM »

Quote from: Purge on January 10, 2008, 01:22:13 AM

Do older movies look that much better in HD? I'd imagine the modern HD cameras bring stuff more to life onscreen.

I've only seen "new" movies on BD-and-HD DVD's.

I just watched Good Fellas on Blu-ray last night and it definately looked good, but nowhere as great as today's movies.
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« Reply #236 on: January 12, 2008, 01:39:14 AM »

Quote from: Caine on January 09, 2008, 09:03:39 PM

btw, have you seen the sd-hd comparison shots of lotr?  very nice. 

SHOWMESHOWME!

LotR would be the reason I'd want an HD player. drool
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« Reply #237 on: January 12, 2008, 01:42:58 AM »

Quote from: Farscry on January 12, 2008, 01:39:14 AM

Quote from: Caine on January 09, 2008, 09:03:39 PM

btw, have you seen the sd-hd comparison shots of lotr?  very nice. 

SHOWMESHOWME!

LotR would be the reason I'd want an HD player. drool

Who loves ya?
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« Reply #238 on: January 12, 2008, 03:01:09 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on January 12, 2008, 01:42:58 AM

Quote from: Farscry on January 12, 2008, 01:39:14 AM

Quote from: Caine on January 09, 2008, 09:03:39 PM

btw, have you seen the sd-hd comparison shots of lotr?  very nice. 

SHOWMESHOWME!

LotR would be the reason I'd want an HD player. drool

Who loves ya?

Wow that's pretty amazing.
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TheMissingLink
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TML, for short.


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« Reply #239 on: January 12, 2008, 03:32:49 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on January 12, 2008, 01:42:58 AM

Quote from: Farscry on January 12, 2008, 01:39:14 AM

Quote from: Caine on January 09, 2008, 09:03:39 PM

btw, have you seen the sd-hd comparison shots of lotr?  very nice. 

SHOWMESHOWME!

LotR would be the reason I'd want an HD player. drool

Who loves ya?

Nice!  I'll definitely check that out when it comes out...
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