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Author Topic: General Sanchez: U.S. can't win in Iraq  (Read 1124 times)
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corruptrelic
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« on: June 04, 2007, 10:42:16 PM »

Yet another general coming out against Bush's war of choice..

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The man who led coalition forces in Iraq during the first year of the occupation says the United States can forget about winning the war.

I think if we do the right things politically and economically with the right Iraqi leadership we could still salvage at least a stalemate, if you will not a stalemate but at least stave off defeat, retired Army Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez said in an interview.

Sanchez, in his first interview since he retired last year, is the highest-ranking former military leader yet to suggest the Bush administration fell short in Iraq. I am absolutely convinced that America has a crisis in leadership at this time, Sanchez said after a recent speech in San Antonio, Texas.

http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=Americas&month=June2007&file=World_News2007060421830.xml

When will our president start listening to the will of the Ameircan people?
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whiteboyskim
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« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2007, 11:26:52 PM »

Maybe when a new one is elected. slywink
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« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2007, 05:36:38 PM »

Bush is just going to tread water on getting anything meaningful done on anything, the same as he has for the past six years.

The saddest thing about the entire situation is how you realize the entire world today would be a completely different place if GWB had not been installed in the White House in 2000.
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ATB
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« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2007, 05:41:33 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on June 05, 2007, 05:36:38 PM


The saddest thing about the entire situation is how you realize the entire world today would be a completely different place if GWB had not been installed in the White House in 2000.

You mean voted in.

It would also be completely different if Clinton had done something about Al Queda instead of leaving it for future admins.

It would also be completely different if FDR had lived another 10 years.
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Eduardo X
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« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2007, 05:42:57 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 05, 2007, 05:41:33 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on June 05, 2007, 05:36:38 PM


The saddest thing about the entire situation is how you realize the entire world today would be a completely different place if GWB had not been installed in the White House in 2000.

You mean voted in.

It would also be completely different if Clinton had done something about Al Queda instead of leaving it for future admins.

It would also be completely different if FDR had lived another 10 years.
Or if Godzilla hadn't destroyed Japan's military infrastructure.
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whiteboyskim
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« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2007, 05:49:59 PM »

Quote from: Eduardo X on June 05, 2007, 05:42:57 PM

Quote from: ATB on June 05, 2007, 05:41:33 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on June 05, 2007, 05:36:38 PM


The saddest thing about the entire situation is how you realize the entire world today would be a completely different place if GWB had not been installed in the White House in 2000.

You mean voted in.

It would also be completely different if Clinton had done something about Al Queda instead of leaving it for future admins.

It would also be completely different if FDR had lived another 10 years.
Or if Godzilla hadn't destroyed Japan's military infrastructure.

Yeah, but that's the sort of intervention you only get once every blue moon.
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unbreakable
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« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2007, 06:39:10 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 05, 2007, 05:41:33 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on June 05, 2007, 05:36:38 PM


The saddest thing about the entire situation is how you realize the entire world today would be a completely different place if GWB had not been installed in the White House in 2000.

You mean voted in.

No, I stand by my statement.

Quote
It would also be completely different if Clinton had done something about Al Queda instead of leaving it for future admins.

Nice talking point.  Care to provide specifics on what should have been done differently?  Hindsight is a really great thing, but doesn't really provide anything relevant when discussing decisions which had been made for certain reasons.

Also, let's say Clinton did "do something about Al Queda".  How would that have prevented 9/11?  OBL didn't plan it, and it wasn't carried out by people in Afghanistan.  Or Iraq.

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It would also be completely different if FDR had lived another 10 years.

Nice defense of the worst president in US history.  Not just the worst president ever, but also the worst president ever at the worst time possible (GWB, not FDR.  It should be a crime to even mention the two in the same breath).

Can you imagine what having at least a somewhat competent president could have meant? 

Arafat died, so there could have finally been a resolution to the Israel/Palestinian issue. 

After 9/11, the ENTIRE WORLD would have done anything to pull together and fight for their collective common good.  That issue taken alone was an extremely unique point in human history, and likely to never come again.  It could have been a turning point, and instead was just passed up and used as a way to push the agenda of yet another authoritarian kleptocratic regime.

Lots of other missed opportunities as well, but perhaps you are not interested in having a meaningful discussion on the issue, so I'll leave off there.  If it's just one of those irreconcilable differences of opinions, I'd be perfectly happy to simply agree to disagree.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 06:56:36 PM by unbreakable » Logged
Eduardo X
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« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2007, 07:30:13 PM »

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After 9/11, the ENTIRE WORLD would have done anything to pull together and fight for their collective common good.  That issue taken alone was an extremely unique point in human history, and likely to never come again.  It could have been a turning point, and instead was just passed up and used as a way to push the agenda of yet another authoritarian kleptocratic regime.
I think that's BS. What kind of fight would it have been? Who would have invested in it with the US? Just because almost 3000 people from the US died doesn't mean the world was unified. Even when 200,000 died after the tsunami, the corruption and stupidity of the world was on the ground to stop help within days. 9/11 was no different.
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« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2007, 07:36:27 PM »

Quote from: Eduardo X on June 05, 2007, 07:30:13 PM

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After 9/11, the ENTIRE WORLD would have done anything to pull together and fight for their collective common good.  That issue taken alone was an extremely unique point in human history, and likely to never come again.  It could have been a turning point, and instead was just passed up and used as a way to push the agenda of yet another authoritarian kleptocratic regime.

I think that's BS. What kind of fight would it have been? Who would have invested in it with the US? Just because almost 3000 people from the US died doesn't mean the world was unified. Even when 200,000 died after the tsunami, the corruption and stupidity of the world was on the ground to stop help within days. 9/11 was no different.

Well, let's see.  France had headlines stating something to the effect that "we are all Americans".  There were diplomats from Iran offering condolences and support, and even average citizens there offering public support (but of course Iran's position is and always has been far different from what the Bushites portray).

Not to mention that GWB had the complete backing of just about everyone in this country as well.  He could have been America's president, but instead he just used the opportunity to plunder the country on an unprecedented level.

Having a leader at that time could have changed the world we live in today.  But, as is perfectly obvious with just Katrina and Iraq (to say nothing of 9/11 or how defeat was snatched from the jaws of victory in Afghanistan), GWB is no leader.  In fact, he is (and always has been) completely uninterested in being anything of the sort.

I don't even think it would have required a particularly skilled leader.  Simply someone offering to do the right thing would have sufficed.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 07:40:36 PM by unbreakable » Logged
Eduardo X
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2007, 07:38:54 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on June 05, 2007, 07:36:27 PM

Quote from: Eduardo X on June 05, 2007, 07:30:13 PM

Quote
After 9/11, the ENTIRE WORLD would have done anything to pull together and fight for their collective common good.  That issue taken alone was an extremely unique point in human history, and likely to never come again.  It could have been a turning point, and instead was just passed up and used as a way to push the agenda of yet another authoritarian kleptocratic regime.

I think that's BS. What kind of fight would it have been? Who would have invested in it with the US? Just because almost 3000 people from the US died doesn't mean the world was unified. Even when 200,000 died after the tsunami, the corruption and stupidity of the world was on the ground to stop help within days. 9/11 was no different.

Well, let's see.  France had headlines stating something to the effect that "we are all Americans".  There were diplomats from Iran offering condolences and support, and even average citizens there offering public support (but of course Iran's position is and always has been far different from what the Bushites portray).

Not to mention that GWB had the complete backing of just about everyone in this country as well.  He could have been America's president, but instead he just used the opportunity to plunder the country on an unprecidented level.

Having a leader at that time could have changed the world we live in today.  But, as is perfectly obvious with just Katrina and Iraq, GWB is no leader.  In fact, he is (and always has been) completely uninterested in being anything of the sort.
That doesn't mean actual support of US government policies or any sort of unity. People can say "I hope Castro gets better," but that doesn't mean they support his policies or would ever try to help a socialist Cuba remain socialist.
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« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2007, 07:54:51 PM »

Well that's what being a leader means: offering a solution rather than sound bites.  Sound bites have replaced leadership for the past six years, and it seems like most Americans can't even remember what it felt like to have a leader as president.

Also, if one were to use the opportunity to change the world post-9/11, it would mean breaking from America's historic policies, which have been pretty detrimental to the world at large in many cases (especially in Central/South America).  But rather than taking that challenge, GWB just shrugged and "stayed the course" with goals of creating an American empire.  Which had been, of course, the entire reason he was installed as president.


On a side note, can anyone be naive enough to not know that this Iraq situation has created a multi-generational (if not permanent) hatred of the US in the middle east?  You have people over there still angry about things which occurred over a thousand years ago.  How likely does anyone think it will be that Iraqis are going to just shrug off America killing off at least a half million civilians?  Is anyone there going to forget Abu Ghraib, or Fallujah, or Gitmo?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 08:02:41 PM by unbreakable » Logged
Autistic Angel
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« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2007, 09:29:19 PM »

Quote from: ATB
It would also be completely different if Clinton had done something about Al Queda instead of leaving it for future admins.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.htm

Quote from: Eduardo X
I think that's BS. What kind of fight would it have been? Who would have invested in it with the US? Just because almost 3000 people from the US died doesn't mean the world was unified. Even when 200,000 died after the tsunami, the corruption and stupidity of the world was on the ground to stop help within days. 9/11 was no different.

Following the 9/11 attacks, NATO invoked Article 5 which resolved that this unprovoked attack against the United States would be treated as an attack against every member nation.  This is the primary reason that American troops to this day are serving alongside soldiers from nations like France, Germany, Canada, Norway, the Netherlands, Romania, and Portugal -- all nations which have steered clear of the situtation in Iraq.

The decision to go to war in Afghanistan enjoyed *tremendous* global support in 2001 and 2002 because that nation was inextricably linked to the 9/11 attacks.  However, that support rapidly started to wane once the United States tried to divert that enthusiasm towards invading Iraq.  If the U.S. had devoted itself 100% towards securing Afghanistan rather than redirecting such a huge percentage of its military towards the Iraq War, it seems very likely to me that the situation there would be vastly improved over its current state.

If your house burns down on Christmas Eve and the entire neighborhood bands together to offer you financial and material support, their goodwill is likely to fade fast once you go out and use their cash to purchase yourself a fully loaded Hummer.  Choosing to exploit other people's kindness until it's withdrawn hardly proves that their kindness never existed.

-Autistic Angel
« Last Edit: June 05, 2007, 09:32:12 PM by Autistic Angel » Logged
ATB
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« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2007, 09:36:42 PM »

Quote from: unbreakable on June 05, 2007, 07:54:51 PM

Well that's what being a leader means: offering a solution rather than sound bites.  Sound bites have replaced leadership for the past six years, and it seems like most Americans can't even remember what it felt like to have a leader as president.

Yes yes. Bush invented the current political system and what works and doesn't.  He's the mastermind.

Quote
Also, if one were to use the opportunity to change the world post-9/11, it would mean breaking from America's historic policies, which have been pretty detrimental to the world at large in many cases (especially in Central/South America).  But rather than taking that challenge, GWB just shrugged and "stayed the course" with goals of creating an American empire.  Which had been, of course, the entire reason he was installed as president.

Yes yes. Bush could have erased 200 years of American IMperialism- especially the seeds of Middle Eastern hate clutivated in the 50s 60s and 70s.  Gosh if WWII couldn't do it, 9/11 certainly could!  If Al Gore had won the election we'd have world peace!  Or would you be bashing him too for the mistakes he made?


Quote
On a side note, can anyone be naive enough to not know that this Iraq situation has created a multi-generational (if not permanent) hatred of the US in the middle east? 


Yes yes. The Middle East loved us prior to GWB. He should have never masterminded the fall of the shah of Iran...in fact he should have never supported the shah thus causing everyone in Iran to hate us once the shah fell.

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You have people over there still angry about things which occurred over a thousand years ago. 


Yes yes. When GWB led the crusades. Won't he ever learn?

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How likely does anyone think it will be that Iraqis are going to just shrug off America killing off at least a half million civilians?  Is anyone there going to forget Abu Ghraib, or Fallujah, or Gitmo?

Uh?  I'm sure our soldiers kill 1000 babies a day and feast on their blood!

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unbreakable
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« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2007, 10:33:45 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 05, 2007, 09:36:42 PM

Quote from: unbreakable on June 05, 2007, 07:54:51 PM

Well that's what being a leader means: offering a solution rather than sound bites.  Sound bites have replaced leadership for the past six years, and it seems like most Americans can't even remember what it felt like to have a leader as president.

Yes yes. Bush invented the current political system and what works and doesn't.  He's the mastermind.

Not really.  When you sit around for six years and do nothing, you get bad results.  It doesn't take a mastermind to accomplish that.

Here is my Bush challenge, which has gone unanswered for years already: name one, single, solitary thing GWB has accomplished since taking office which is unquestionably a positive for all Americans.  Just one thing.  He has been in office six years.  It should be pretty easy, right?

Quote
Quote
Also, if one were to use the opportunity to change the world post-9/11, it would mean breaking from America's historic policies, which have been pretty detrimental to the world at large in many cases (especially in Central/South America).  But rather than taking that challenge, GWB just shrugged and "stayed the course" with goals of creating an American empire.  Which had been, of course, the entire reason he was installed as president.

Yes yes. Bush could have erased 200 years of American IMperialism- especially the seeds of Middle Eastern hate clutivated in the 50s 60s and 70s.  Gosh if WWII couldn't do it, 9/11 certainly could!  If Al Gore had won the election we'd have world peace!  Or would you be bashing him too for the mistakes he made?

No, Bush couldn't have, which is pretty much my point.  The opportunity was there, but we had the wrong man for the job in office at just the wrong time.  As I said, the world today would be a completely different place had the Bush junta not been allowed to seize power.

Quote
Quote
On a side note, can anyone be naive enough to not know that this Iraq situation has created a multi-generational (if not permanent) hatred of the US in the middle east? 


Yes yes. The Middle East loved us prior to GWB. He should have never masterminded the fall of the shah of Iran...in fact he should have never supported the shah thus causing everyone in Iran to hate us once the shah fell.

Now you have completely gone off on a tangent.  The bulk of anti-US terrorism was coming from Arabia and areas around it.  Look at the Snopes link AA posted- almost all of it ties back to Saudi Arabia... and the Bush family is all up ins with the Saudi royal family.  In fact, OBL's brother was GWB's first business partner.  Small world, huh?

But of course, I'm sure the fact that the Saudi royal family has invested over $1.5 billion with the Bush family has absolutely zero influence on Bush's foreign policy.  Thinking that would be absurd, of course.

Quote
Quote
You have people over there still angry about things which occurred over a thousand years ago. 


Yes yes. When GWB led the crusades. Won't he ever learn?

So then... you believe Iraq is going to have great love for America pretty soon?  All huggy kissy lovie dovie forgive and forget?

Quote
Quote
How likely does anyone think it will be that Iraqis are going to just shrug off America killing off at least a half million civilians?  Is anyone there going to forget Abu Ghraib, or Fallujah, or Gitmo?

Uh?  I'm sure our soldiers kill 1000 babies a day and feast on their blood!

So my assumption that you had no intention to meaningfully discuss this was what, 100% correct, or would that be 150% correct?
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« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2007, 10:54:37 PM »

What's convenient for you also, is that when the Democrats get the White House (which I sort of hope they do to break the gridlock) they can blame all their failures to do anything on GWB too!  Win win!
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Here is my Bush challenge, which has gone unanswered for years already: name one, single, solitary thing GWB has accomplished since taking office which is unquestionably a positive for all Americans.  Just one thing.

Name me one thing from any president that has proven unquestionably positive for all Americans.  What's convenient for you also, is that when the Democrats get the White House (which I sort of hope they do to break the gridlock) they can blame all their failures to do anything on GWB too!  Win win!

Quote
So my assumption that you had no intention to meaningfully discuss this was what, 100% correct, or would that be 150% correct?

Your extrapolations of GWB being the Kaiser Soze of American and World politics is ridiculous and I have responded in kind. Are you in the same tinfoil fallout shelter as Kobra?

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« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2007, 11:16:50 PM »

Quote from: ATB on June 05, 2007, 10:54:37 PM

What's convenient for you also, is that when the Democrats get the White House (which I sort of hope they do to break the gridlock) they can blame all their failures to do anything on GWB too!  Win win!
Quote
Here is my Bush challenge, which has gone unanswered for years already: name one, single, solitary thing GWB has accomplished since taking office which is unquestionably a positive for all Americans.  Just one thing.

Name me one thing from any president that has proven unquestionably positive for all Americans.  What's convenient for you also, is that when the Democrats get the White House (which I sort of hope they do to break the gridlock) they can blame all their failures to do anything on GWB too!  Win win!

Clinton left office with two balanced budgets, and a Social Security surplus.

Quote
Quote
So my assumption that you had no intention to meaningfully discuss this was what, 100% correct, or would that be 150% correct?

Your extrapolations of GWB being the Kaiser Soze of American and World politics is ridiculous and I have responded in kind. Are you in the same tinfoil fallout shelter as Kobra?

Nobody said he was, you are reading far too much into it.  I'm simply saying that he is doing nothing for America, and is simply permitting an unlimited amount of corruption.  That doesn't take being a mastermind, it simply takes apathy.
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Blackadar
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2007, 12:32:18 AM »

That General is just a...DIRTY SANCHEZ!!!



(And if you don't know what that is, look it up on wiki - but do NOT search for it on other websites.  Consider yourself warned.)
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« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2007, 01:16:09 AM »

Quote from: Blackadar on June 06, 2007, 12:32:18 AM

That General is just a...DIRTY SANCHEZ!!!



(And if you don't know what that is, look it up on wiki - but do NOT search for it on other websites.  Consider yourself warned.)

I was wondering when that joke would be made.  I wouldn't have given the warning though  icon_twisted
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« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2007, 03:16:23 AM »

When I was working at the dept of juvenile justice we had an officer Sanchez who all the juvenile punks called "Dirty Sanchez" but his english wasn't that great so he had no idea what they were talking about.
Finally when he figured it out he got so upset he ended up quitting. Was a decent guy too, that Dirty Sanchez fellow.

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« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2007, 09:43:19 PM »

Wow, it's something of a pile-on today as another retired general comes out and calls Bush's war a terribly-run blunder.
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« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2007, 10:42:47 PM »

Quote from: Fireball1244 on June 06, 2007, 09:43:19 PM


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