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Author Topic: Gene Wilder-'Willy Wonka' remake was an Insult  (Read 2638 times)
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metallicorphan
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« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2013, 07:39:19 PM »

so,just for the record (and to go off topic again icon_biggrin )


Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory-wasn't keen on it
Alice In wonderland-quite liked it
Sweeney Todd-absolutely loved it

Quote from: Suitably Ironic Moniker on June 18, 2013, 07:37:30 PM

He needs to find or create source material equal to his talents. He should step out of his comfort zone, perhaps make a romantic comedy, or buddy cop film.

is this Depp or Burton we are talking about?


I just found out the other day BTW,that Helena Bonham Carter is in The Lone Ranger with Depp,LOL
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« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2013, 07:47:38 PM »

I'm guessing he's talking about Burton as Depp has always sought out roles that challenge him...

...well...he USED to do that a lot.  Lately...not so much.
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« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2013, 07:49:47 PM »

Hepcat, now you've made me go and make a Burton list!!! Obviously this is personal opinion, but I wanted to see if my analysis was correct. For sake of simplicity, I'm only listing feature-length movies Burton directed.

Title-Date-Depp Factor-Good/Sucked
Beetlejuice - 1988 - No Depp - Good
Batman - 1989 - No Depp - Good
Edward Scissorhands - 1990 - Depp - Good
Batman Returns - No Depp - 1992 - Sucked
Ed Wood - 1994 - Depp - Good
Mars Attacks! - 1996 - No Depp - Sucked
Sleepy Hollow - 1999 - Depp - Good
Planet of the Apes - 2001 - No Depp - Sucked
Big Fish - 2003 - No Depp - Good
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory - 2005 - Depp - Sucked
Corpse Bride - 2005 - Depp - Good
Sweeney Todd - 2007 - Depp - Good
Alice in Wonderland - 2010 - Depp - Sucked
Dark Shadows - 2012 - Depp - Sucked
Frankenweenie - 2012 - No Depp - Good

Movies without Johnny Depp that were good - 4
Movies with Johnny Depp that were good - 5
Movies without Johnny Depp that sucked - 3
Movies with Johnny Depp that sucked - 3

So it looks like Burton is equally adept at making a good movie or a sucky movie with or without Johnny Depp. However, the evidence states that Depp slightly weighs the outcome in favor of the movie being good vs sucking. Obviously if you were more favorable to Alice in Wonderland and Charlie & The Chocolate Factory then I was, then the influence is even more overwhelming.

Thus I begrudgingly take back my comment. However, I still argue that the "Depp Factor" may still be due to sheer volume of collaborations. I believe we need another 10-20 years of Burton films to be sure.

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« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2013, 07:58:03 PM »

Dark Shadows was horribly wasted.
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« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2013, 08:01:50 PM »

I quite liked Batman Returns,LOL(especially compared to 3 and 4)
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« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2013, 08:02:34 PM »

BR was good until the end when the penguins sprouted rocket launchers.
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« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2013, 08:11:52 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on June 18, 2013, 07:58:03 PM

Dark Shadows was horribly wasted.

Oh god yes.  What a huge pile of crap that was.  "I'm a werewolf, get over it." was like Burton waving his middle finger in the collective face of audiences everywhere.  Being lazy when writing a script is one thing...flaunting that laziness is another.

Looking over YK's list, I realized I like far more of his movies than I hate though.  Ed Wood is just genius, in my opinion.  But Big Fish, Sleepy Hallow, Mars Attacks...fun movies all, for me at least (Edward Scissorhands makes me tear up a bit every single damn time I watch it so I can't call it "fun"...but I do believe it's a great movie).
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« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2013, 08:14:09 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on June 18, 2013, 08:02:34 PM

BR was good until the end when the penguins sprouted rocket launchers.


Oh yeah,i forgot about that part

Dark Shadows gets premiered on Sky movies this Friday,i'll SKY+ it
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« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2013, 08:17:59 PM »

prepare for disappointment.
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« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2013, 10:02:01 PM »

Quote from: metallicorphan on June 18, 2013, 07:39:19 PM

Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory-wasn't keen on it
Alice In wonderland-quite liked it
Sweeney Todd-absolutely loved it

I must be a fan boy, for the above 3:
Loved
Liked
Absolutely loved, amazing movie
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« Reply #50 on: June 18, 2013, 10:12:21 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 18, 2013, 07:49:47 PM

Hepcat, now you've made me go and make a Burton list!!! Obviously this is personal opinion, but I wanted to see if my analysis was correct. For sake of simplicity, I'm only listing feature-length movies Burton directed.

Title-Date-Depp Factor-Good/Sucked


ahem

1985 Pee-Wee's Big Adventure  No Depp  Good
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« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2013, 12:42:45 AM »

I would go so far as "very good".   icon_wink

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« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2013, 03:13:06 AM »

Yeah, not sure how I missed Pee-Wee's Big Adventure. That's one of my favorite movies of all time! And I'm not being ironic when I say that movie is pure genius - I've seen it easily 20 or 30 times, if not more. There was a point in my youth when I could pretty much recite the entire film line by line.

That brings the Depp/No Depp score to even, no? Then I retract my retraction!  icon_biggrin

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« Reply #53 on: June 19, 2013, 04:27:15 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on June 18, 2013, 06:25:32 PM

the re-make definitely hit it out of the park for the Oompas.

Hated the Oompa Loompas in the remake.

Also, to answer a question mo had about Roald Dahl in the States: I would say he's pretty popular.  His stuff is always available, and kids still seem to read them a lot.  I know my daughter does, and some of her friends, too.

As for YK's list, mine would line up pretty closely with that, although I didn't hate Batman Returns, didn't love Sleepy Hollow and also liked Alice in Wonderland more than I expected.  I'd agree with Hep that Ed Wood is genius.  Probably his best film.

Also, um, Nightmare Before Christmas?
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« Reply #54 on: June 19, 2013, 05:04:02 AM »

Nightmare Before Christmas wasn't directed by Burton, he wrote it. Henry Selick (Coraline) directed it.
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« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2013, 05:46:36 AM »

Quote from: Suitably Ironic Moniker on June 19, 2013, 05:04:02 AM

Nightmare Before Christmas wasn't directed by Burton, he wrote it. Henry Selick (Coraline) directed it.

One of my favorite movies of all times.

I don't get all the new-CATCF hate, but then again, I never saw the original until recently. I guess its one of those "You ruined my childhood" things that I never understand. If you don't like it, just stay clear? It shouldn't ruin your childhood experiences,and you are most certainly (probably?) free to have your children watch the edition you want.

I'm a huge fan of Johnny Depp, and I think he did it splendidly. For all its fun and games, there is a huge undercurrent of danger in the movie. I also haven't read the original book though, so I'm unsure whether that was there as well? I'm actually unsure whether there is any truth to the whole Michael Jackson look-alike thing that Depp and Burton has been accused of, but it certainly adds another dimension to the movie.

I guess what I'm trying to add to the conversation, is that live and let live is a good rule to live by.
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« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2013, 06:29:42 AM »

I've fallen asleep through NBC twice, once in the theater.  I don't care for what I've seen, didn't change my mind when the ex-gf was working her way through Kingdom Hearts.

And I honestly don't care for much of Burton's stuff to the point where I attempt to avoid it when I see he's attached.  My enjoyment of his stuff stops at Beetlejuice and his Batmans.  Sleepy Hollow was meh.
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« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2013, 12:41:09 PM »

Quote from: Suitably Ironic Moniker on June 19, 2013, 05:04:02 AM

Nightmare Before Christmas wasn't directed by Burton, he wrote it. Henry Selick (Coraline) directed it.

He was also a producer, and I'm not convinced his involvement wasn't along the lines of Spielberg's involvement in Poltergeist.  His DNA is dripping from it.


Quote from: Razgon on June 19, 2013, 05:46:36 AM


One of my favorite movies of all times.

I don't get all the new-CATCF hate, but then again, I never saw the original until recently. I guess its one of those "You ruined my childhood" things that I never understand. If you don't like it, just stay clear? It shouldn't ruin your childhood experiences,and you are most certainly (probably?) free to have your children watch the edition you want.

I'm a huge fan of Johnny Depp, and I think he did it splendidly. For all its fun and games, there is a huge undercurrent of danger in the movie. I also haven't read the original book though, so I'm unsure whether that was there as well? I'm actually unsure whether there is any truth to the whole Michael Jackson look-alike thing that Depp and Burton has been accused of, but it certainly adds another dimension to the movie.

I guess what I'm trying to add to the conversation, is that live and let live is a good rule to live by.

Well, it's not just the, hey, don't mess with my childhood thing.  When an update pulls it off, that goes away.  But Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory is, as was mentioned here, a classic that stands fine on its own, even today.  Remaking it is a clear cash grab (or possibly also a way to retain rights, though the original had seen a recent rerelease), and it's perfectly sensible to be offended by that aspect of it.
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« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2013, 01:25:31 PM »

Yes, I do believe remakes are necessitated by cash primarily.  All of them.  Once you realize you can't stop that from happening, you can start to appreciate the work on its own merits.  Which is how I believe I approached CatCF.  Was it better than the original?  Not to me.  But I still enjoyed it for what it was.

...and Nightmare Before Christmas is a modern classic people.  It should be shown every holiday season.   icon_wink
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« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2013, 05:26:00 PM »

I didn't like CatCF on its own merits. Even though I'm a huge fan of the first film, I was actually looking forward to the remake. Then Johnny Depp ruined it. (I love Johnny Depp, but his portrayal of Wonka was horrific). I also hated that they felt they had to add backstory to how Willy Wonka came to be, etc. - it just ruined all the mystery surrounding the character. Then of course, the stupid Oompah Loompah thing, which was also horrible.
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« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2013, 06:36:12 PM »

Quote from: YellowKing on June 19, 2013, 05:26:00 PM

I didn't like CatCF on its own merits.

That's reasonable enough.  I was just saying that discounting it because it's a remake made for the cash was unfair considering they all are.  But if you didn't like it simply because you thought it was a bad film, that's fair.
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« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2013, 07:48:21 PM »

Not necessarily.  Solaris could be considered a remake of Solyaris, which is a Russian film that few here saw.  So it wasn't really a cash grab so much as an attempt to take on a subject that just hadn't been done here, and was, in my opinion, better than the novel.  You could also take the 1959 Ben Hur which was a remake of the silent film, but at least that remake was able to give the subject the technological advances of color and sound that came with the time, so a remake was justified.  Yes, I know I'm reaching for non cash-grab remakes, but there are examples of when a remake is justified.  This just wasn't one of them.
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« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2013, 07:54:04 PM »

The vast and overwhelming majority of remakes are, in my opinion, based more on the cash grab than anything else.
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« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2013, 08:08:07 PM »

Agreed, which is why I hate Hollywood and their willingness to pump out remakes and movies like Starsky and Hutch, Battleship, Oceans 11-13, a three-part Hobbit featuring Legolas, The Great Gatsby in 3D and Grown Ups 2.  Is a little originality too much to ask for?  Of course I ask for this and am rewarded with Lars Von Trier.  No thank you.  
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« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2013, 02:13:26 AM »

They're reissuing The Wizard of Oz in 3D to coincide with its 75th anniversary. 'Nuf said.
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« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2013, 03:11:12 AM »

I don't know if I'd throw The Great Gatsby in the same category as Starsky & Hutch. Regardless of what one thinks of Baz Luhrman, or Leo, they aren't exactly cinematic mercenaries. Both seem to try to choose interesting films. Frankly, the movie didn't appeal that much to me, but at least they approached it from a different angle, rather than from some expected traditional remake.

People get all up in arms about remakes and studios' cynical grabs for cash, but it's been part of movies for a long time now. Hell, The Maltese Falcon, directed by John Huston and starring Humphrey Bogart was a remake of a film from 11 years prior that was based on a novel. Different generations can have different takes on the same characters and stories. Superhero stories can be compared to Greek myths in some ways, and as such can reflect what the world is like at that time.

Certainly, there are a lot of BS cash grabs, but on the other hand, it's not like Before Midnight would make $100mil if they had Superman's promotional budget. Most people go to movies purely for entertainment.
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« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2013, 01:27:48 PM »

Yes, Great Gatsby isn't in the same class as there hasn't been a definitive version of it filmed.  I just threw it in there because I find it funny to say "Great Gatsby 3D."  Now that money and excess is really in your face. 
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« Reply #67 on: June 20, 2013, 01:32:56 PM »

Quote from: Ironrod on June 20, 2013, 02:13:26 AM

They're reissuing The Wizard of Oz in 3D to coincide with its 75th anniversary. 'Nuf said.

Horrible movie - I'd pay good money for an updated version!

Edit: That felt like trolling, which...well, wasn't the point at least. I've tried to watch it, and its simply too old by now. Style, tempo and direction of movies have changed so much that what used to be classics are so out of tune, that they aren't watchable anymore. Godfather 1 is one such movie. Try watching it with someone who hasn't seen it before before yelling at me, please - Its the slowest movie ever (now!).
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« Reply #68 on: June 20, 2013, 01:56:02 PM »

I think Godfather might be somewhat inaccessible to a younger crowd than it was twenty years ago.  Today's movies are pretty fast paced and that's the trend now.  Godfather was from a different era, but that doesn't mean it hasn't aged well.  So I might have a bit of trouble with the Godfather and a 16-year-old, but I seriously doubt I'd have any trouble getting a 30-year-old to sit back lose himself in the awesomeness of the Godfather for the first time. 
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« Reply #69 on: June 20, 2013, 02:25:19 PM »

Yeah, I'm not buying that, Raz.  I think that's just you.

Kids are still watching Wizard of Oz all the time and loving it.  I watched it just recently and had no issues with pacing at all.

My kid recently watched Gone with the Wind and was wrapped up in it for the entire film.  Same with Casablanca, even (though some of the stuff did go over her head there).

She is just as happy seeing 70s kids films as modern ones.  One of her top movies for the past year and a half or so has been Escape to Witch Mountain.  She's watched it three or four times and has seen the sequel and even read the book.  She has recently gone from naming characters in games Hermione to TiaHermione (Hermione will not be toppled).  We haven't gotten to the update Race to Witch Mountain (which is faster right from the title), but I can guarantee you she'll enjoy it, then forget about it and want to watch the original again.

The same has already happened with WWatCF and CatCF.  She's seen the original a bunch of times.  We watched the new one once and none of us have any desire to go back.

Fortunately for you, I've already spent too much time to get into your ridiculous Godfather comment.
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« Reply #70 on: June 20, 2013, 02:34:26 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 20, 2013, 02:25:19 PM

Yeah, I'm not buying that, Raz.  I think that's just you.

Kids are still watching Wizard of Oz all the time and loving it.  I watched it just recently and had no issues with pacing at all.

My kid recently watched Gone with the Wind and was wrapped up in it for the entire film.  Same with Casablanca, even (though some of the stuff did go over her head there).

She is just as happy seeing 70s kids films as modern ones.  One of her top movies for the past year and a half or so has been Escape to Witch Mountain.  She's watched it three or four times and has seen the sequel and even read the book.  She has recently gone from naming characters in games Hermione to TiaHermione (Hermione will not be toppled).  We haven't gotten to the update Race to Witch Mountain (which is faster right from the title), but I can guarantee you she'll enjoy it, then forget about it and want to watch the original again.

The same has already happened with WWatCF and CatCF.  She's seen the original a bunch of times.  We watched the new one once and none of us have any desire to go back.

Fortunately for you, I've already spent too much time to get into your ridiculous Godfather comment.

I understand and respect your disagreement, and while it tangled off towards the unpleasant at the end, I will just acknowledge  that our experiences and views on the matter differ wildly, as does those few with which I've tried both to watch Godfather with, and Wizard of Oz. Perhaps a cultural difference as well could explain some of it.
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« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2013, 02:59:08 PM »

I would think there's enough bloodshed in The Godfather to make most Vikings happy though?   icon_confused
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« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2013, 05:29:26 PM »

I can't believe Raz dissed the Godfather....  he's dead to me!  dead!
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« Reply #73 on: June 20, 2013, 05:49:16 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on June 20, 2013, 05:29:26 PM

I can't believe Raz dissed the Godfather....  he's dead to me!  dead!

He'll pull you back in.

In the meantime, stay off of the water, Raz.
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« Reply #74 on: June 20, 2013, 08:31:14 PM »

Quote from: Razgon on June 20, 2013, 01:32:56 PM

Godfather 1 is one such movie. Try watching it with someone who hasn't seen it before before yelling at me, please - Its the slowest movie ever (now!).

Obviously you've forgotten about Once Upon a Time in the West.  A fly gets more screen time than the bulk of the actors in the film.  Almost no one from the lengthy opening scene is seen again in the film.  Today the first fifteen minutes of the film would be reduced to less than 30 seconds of quick cuts.  I can't say it's the slowest movie ever since I've yet to make it through Cleopatra or the soviet version of War and Peace.
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« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2013, 08:45:39 PM »

I think i may watch The Godfather tonight,brilliant film

not sure why i always thought as well that Tim Burton directed A Nightmare Before Christmas....I certainly always considered it one of his films

EDIT:
Okay,it may be because its titled 'Tim Burton's A Nightmare Before Christmas'..that is what probably threw me


Quote from: Hrothgar on June 20, 2013, 08:31:14 PM


Obviously you've forgotten about Once Upon a Time in the West.  A fly gets more screen time than the bulk of the actors in the film.  Almost no one from the lengthy opening scene is seen again in the film.  Today the first fifteen minutes of the film would be reduced to less than 30 seconds of quick cuts. 


I really wanted to like that film,after the Man with No Name trilogy,i bought the DVD of 'Once Upon a Time In The West',but just did not like it at all...Once Upon a Time In America on the other hand is fantastic
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« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2013, 08:46:05 PM »

Quote from: Bullwinkle on June 20, 2013, 05:49:16 PM

Quote from: CeeKay on June 20, 2013, 05:29:26 PM

I can't believe Raz dissed the Godfather....  he's dead to me!  dead!

He'll pull you back in.

In the meantime, stay off of the water, Raz.

it's just a three hour cruise....
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Ironrod
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« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2013, 10:42:16 PM »

I very much enjoy the storytelling style of the 1930s and 40s. In fact, I generally prefer it to the thrill-a-minute, rapid-cut pacing of contemporary films. Stagecoach is a great example: First introduce the characters, then introduce the conflict, then gather the characters together...and only then does the action unfold. By the time the plot gets moving you know who everybody is, why they're there, and how it affects them.
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« Reply #78 on: June 21, 2013, 12:46:24 AM »

Quote from: Ironrod on June 20, 2013, 10:42:16 PM

I very much enjoy the storytelling style of the 1930s and 40s. In fact, I generally prefer it to the thrill-a-minute, rapid-cut pacing of contemporary films. Stagecoach is a great example: First introduce the characters, then introduce the conflict, then gather the characters together...and only then does the action unfold. By the time the plot gets moving you know who everybody is, why they're there, and how it affects them.

Plus Stagecoach has one of the greatest character introductions of all time.  Who's that?  Some actor, hasn't been in a lot of stuff. [Roll in for close up] Star.  John Wayne, ladies and gentlemen.
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« Reply #79 on: June 21, 2013, 02:42:25 AM »

John Wayne would have been a great Willy Wonka.

There. We're back on topic.
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