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Grievous Angel
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« Reply #120 on: October 12, 2004, 04:37:57 PM »

Just now, I saw an article on CNN that Fox may get slammed with a $1 million fine for a stunt on a reality show a year or so ago that involved whipped cream (use your imagination). That's not inherently political in nature, but it could involve sniping about the FCC and turn into a heated discussion. As the forums stand right now, could I post a thread about that story without fear of it getting locked?
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« Reply #121 on: October 12, 2004, 04:45:15 PM »

Quote from: "pr0ner"
Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Expect a post on the R&P decision by COB today.


I think things are perfect the way they are.  Adding PC game forums was a logical extension of what was going on, because you were already doing PC-PR posts in the Console Games forum.  However, all along there was no R&P forum at this site, and there never seemed to be a need for one with the people who were here before GG closed.  I've only seen one person say "I'm leaving" if there's no R&P, and the majority of the sentiment I've seen also says "no" to R&P.  Why change a good thing, especially when it means more work for the people modding the board?

Mike


I will volunteer to mod the R & P, put me in coach, I will do it. Again, let me say as others have said, adding R & P, in no way impacts those that dont like it, or dont want to participate in it. If you dont want it, dont like it, and wont participate in an R & P forum, dont let it bother you, you will not be impacted by it one way or the other, unless you choose to come into it. From what I have seen, nobody is proposing mandatory participation in R & P. Also, many of you against it, have no idea just how polite the discourse had become. We hadnt had any of the infighting and hatefullness of a year ago, and this was in the heat of an election.

But those of us that do want a political subforum, should have that opportunity. I dont want a PC gaming forum, dont have a use for it, but that doesnt mean one shouldnt be here, for those that want to talk about it.
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Gromit
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« Reply #122 on: October 12, 2004, 04:46:46 PM »

Quote
As the forums stand right now, could I post a thread about that story without fear of it getting locked?


I would doubt it, and frankly I would rather not see that stuff on a gaming forum.  I come to these places to get away from that crap for awhile.

Yes, I know...I don't have to click on the link to an R&P forum, but I do believe these sites are fundamentally better off without them.[/quote]
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Hrothgar
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« Reply #123 on: October 12, 2004, 04:47:15 PM »

Quote from: "D'Arcy"
Quote
I dont think GG is coming back...

Or is it?


That bothers me. How would you negotiate with Rich if he doesn't want to talk to people?

It seems you're just asking to split up the community.  I realize that we've already splintered to some degree, but each attempt to resurrect will just make it worse.  Thanks to the staff here, there's been a remarkably orderly transition.  If the community fails here, then perhaps other plans will be needed.

I liked the mods at GGF, but then the turnover was nearly 100% from when I joined.  I don't think GGF was ever the staff, it was the community.  It seems most of the community is here now.  Why rock what has turned out to be the rescue ship?

What about R&P?  Well, if I were Ron, this is how I'd handle it.  I'd meet with my current mods, hammer out a strict set of moderating guidelines for a R&P forum.  Draft some of the people who really want the R&P forum to be that sections mods.  Hold their feet to the fire on the guidelines.  They're not fired if the guidelines aren't upheld; the R&P forum goes away.  Then all the non R&P mods have to do is spot checks.  Of course, you could go one step further and make R&P a hidden forum where you have to sign up to even see it, but that might be too far.

Ron could get in a lot of trouble if he started taking my advice. :lol:
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jblank
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« Reply #124 on: October 12, 2004, 04:49:46 PM »

Quote from: "Gromit"
I would doubt it, and frankly I would rather not see that stuff on a gaming forum.  I come to these places to get away from that crap for awhile.

Yes, I know...I don't have to click on the link to an R&P forum, but I do believe these sites are fundamentally better off without them.


So censoring peoples abilities to discuss politics, in one forum, away from the on topic or off topic discussions, hurts the forum? How? How does my talking about the cons of US Iraq policy, with my friends, impact the greater scope of the forum, in any way? The answer is it doesnt. Just like at GG, those that choose to participate in R & P will participate, those that dont want to, wont.
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th'FOOL
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« Reply #125 on: October 12, 2004, 04:55:00 PM »

Quote from: "jblank"

So censoring peoples abilities to discuss politics, in one forum, away from the on topic or off topic discussions, hurts the forum?


I just want to clear something up - nobody is censoring anybody here.  We have valid reasons for being wary of an R&P forum, the chief one being the moderation nightmare of such an entity, and it has nothing to do with censoring our forum members.  We have more respect for you than that.
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« Reply #126 on: October 12, 2004, 05:00:57 PM »

Quote from: "th'FOOL"
Quote from: "jblank"

So censoring peoples abilities to discuss politics, in one forum, away from the on topic or off topic discussions, hurts the forum?


I just want to clear something up - nobody is censoring anybody here.  We have valid reasons for being wary of an R&P forum, the chief one being the moderation nightmare of such an entity, and it has nothing to do with censoring our forum members.  We have more respect for you than that.


Well, I will volunteer to moderate it during the day. I am forunate to have a job that plants me in my office, in front of my PC, from 8-5 daily, monday through Friday. Again though, I think alot of this prejudice against it, is from how the GG R & P was, when it was included in EBG, not how it has been since the split.
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Guy Incognito
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« Reply #127 on: October 12, 2004, 05:01:33 PM »

Quote from: "jblank"
Quote from: "Mr. Fed"
I, for one, don't think that CG should add a R&P forum, or bend its no-politics-and-religion rule, if that goes against the spirit of the site and the vision of the people who do the real work around here.  I may not agree that allowing R&P discussion coarsens the dialogue in other forums, but clearly moderating such discussions is a completely different affair.  This is clearly a well-run forum with its own tone, set in part by its leaders and in part by its long-time inhabitants.  If the mods/leaders and long-time members change the place reluctantly just to keep some people, it's going to cause long-term resentment and strife.  Have the forum you want to have, or what's the point?


Couldnt disagree more. As I said, those that dont like to discuss politics, dont have to go in there, but I believe that alot of you against it, hadnt been in the GG R & P forum in a long time, and dont know how respectful it had became. I sure would miss my friends, miss the intelligent debate, but I just dont see staying here without a political subforum, and from talking with others privately, I am not alone in that line of thought.

Respectful?  Sure, some threads were but there was a lot that wasn't too.  As far as "dont have to go in there" people could just as easily click a link to another site that focused on political discussion.

I'd probably fall into the "No R&P" category but seeing how the mods handle things here I'm intrigued as to how it might turn out.  I'm just not sure the ends justify the extra time and effort required to police such a forum.
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Captain Caveman
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« Reply #128 on: October 12, 2004, 05:01:40 PM »

My occasional trips to the GG forum became much more frequent when I realized that this community was more substanitive than any other I had encountered on the net. Soon, GG was the first place I turned to share my thoughts, exchange ideas, and discuss current events. Like any group of friends, we talked about all sorts of things: games, girls, movies, and yes, politics.

I understand that CG is different than GG and is allowed to dictate how the forums are created and conducted. All I can do is make it known that I found the R&P forum on GG to be, for the most part, civil, mature and informative, and I'd love to continue that relationship here.

If, God forbid, something like 9/11 ever happened again, I would hope that I could turn to this community I value and trust to come to terms with the event. It would seem kinda strange to me to have a gathering place for a group of friends like this and not be able to talk about some of the most salient issues of the day.

But then again, not my decision.  smile
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jblank
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« Reply #129 on: October 12, 2004, 05:05:31 PM »

Quote from: "Guy Incognito"
Quote from: "jblank"
Quote from: "Mr. Fed"
I, for one, don't think that CG should add a R&P forum, or bend its no-politics-and-religion rule, if that goes against the spirit of the site and the vision of the people who do the real work around here.  I may not agree that allowing R&P discussion coarsens the dialogue in other forums, but clearly moderating such discussions is a completely different affair.  This is clearly a well-run forum with its own tone, set in part by its leaders and in part by its long-time inhabitants.  If the mods/leaders and long-time members change the place reluctantly just to keep some people, it's going to cause long-term resentment and strife.  Have the forum you want to have, or what's the point?


Couldnt disagree more. As I said, those that dont like to discuss politics, dont have to go in there, but I believe that alot of you against it, hadnt been in the GG R & P forum in a long time, and dont know how respectful it had became. I sure would miss my friends, miss the intelligent debate, but I just dont see staying here without a political subforum, and from talking with others privately, I am not alone in that line of thought.

Respectful?  Sure, some threads were but there was a lot that wasn't too.  As far as "dont have to go in there" people could just as easily click a link to another site that focused on political discussion.

I'd probably fall into the "No R&P" category but seeing how the mods handle things here I'm intrigued as to how it might turn out.  I'm just not sure the ends justify the extra time and effort required to police such a forum.


I have to disagree. As someone that was in the R & P daily, and accumulated over 4500 posts, most in political threads, I think I can say that the vast majority of the topics were discussed with civility. If we get a R & P here, those that dont be civil, dont follow the rules, can get the boot. I have no problem with that, nor do I believe anyone else does.
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Gromit
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« Reply #130 on: October 12, 2004, 05:06:13 PM »

Wow.  Three whole minutes for the censorship card to be thrown out on the table.  Impressive.  :roll:

You want to discuss R&P?  Go to an R&P site.  I never liked the one at GG, and thought it was a terrible idea.

This site isn't GG.  Stop trying to make it GG.
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« Reply #131 on: October 12, 2004, 05:09:41 PM »

Quote from: "jblank"
So censoring peoples abilities to discuss politics, in one forum, away from the on topic or off topic discussions, hurts the forum? How? How does my talking about the cons of US Iraq policy, with my friends, impact the greater scope of the forum, in any way? The answer is it doesnt. Just like at GG, those that choose to participate in R & P will participate, those that dont want to, wont.


Did the libertarians teach you nothing, boy?  It's only censorship if it's performed by a government.  I realize you're speaking informally, but it makes my eyes burn to see this from you.

To pick up the R & P football and run with it, consolegold is a private house.  The owners do assuredly have the right to kick out anyone who talks back to them, talks about things they don't approve, or indeed anyone whose looks they don't like, for any reason or none.

The political forum was a primary reason I wasted so much time on gonegold over the past six months, though I poked my head into the other rooms too.  I am with you in that I will migrate elsewhere if I can't discuss politics here, not that where I hang out matters in the slightest.
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jblank
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« Reply #132 on: October 12, 2004, 05:11:04 PM »

Quote from: "Gromit"
Wow.  Three whole minutes for the censorship card to be thrown out on the table.  Impressive.  :roll:

You want to discuss R&P?  Go to an R&P site.  I never liked the one at GG, and thought it was a terrible idea.

This site isn't GG.  Stop trying to make it GG.


Wait a minute. What would you call it if someone eliminates or locks any chance of debating political issues? To me, that is censoring what is allowed to be discussed here.

Here is the definition of censor:

A person authorized to examine books, films, or other material and to remove or suppress what is considered morally, politically, or otherwise objectionable.

I was using that word as a method of showing that certain types of topics are verboten here. Sorry if you dont like its use, but the truth is that they are practicing a certain type of censorship. Its their right, its their site, but you cant argue the use of the word my friend, rolleyes or not.
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« Reply #133 on: October 12, 2004, 05:13:08 PM »

Sometimes it's like Gone Gold never went away.
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« Reply #134 on: October 12, 2004, 05:13:39 PM »

Quote from: "Tareeq"
Quote from: "jblank"
So censoring peoples abilities to discuss politics, in one forum, away from the on topic or off topic discussions, hurts the forum? How? How does my talking about the cons of US Iraq policy, with my friends, impact the greater scope of the forum, in any way? The answer is it doesnt. Just like at GG, those that choose to participate in R & P will participate, those that dont want to, wont.


Did the libertarians teach you nothing, boy?  It's only censorship if it's performed by a government.  I realize you're speaking informally, but it makes my eyes burn to see this from you.

To pick up the R & P football and run with it, consolegold is a private house.  The owners do assuredly have the right to kick out anyone who talks back to them, talks about things they don't approve, or indeed anyone whose looks they don't like, for any reason or none.

The political forum was a primary reason I wasted so much time on gonegold over the past six months, though I poked my head into the other rooms too.  I am with you in that I will migrate elsewhere if I can't discuss politics here, not that where I hang out matters in the slightest.


Sorry you feel that way Patrick, but its my opinion. I simply feel that strongly about this issue.
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Gromit
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« Reply #135 on: October 12, 2004, 05:14:54 PM »

You're right.  The mods can censor ANYTHING they like here.  

That's the beauty of it.  You have no right to express any opinion here that doesn't fit within the guidelines set forth by the managers of this site.

Call it what you want, but I call it a good thing.

[edited for spelling *g*]
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« Reply #136 on: October 12, 2004, 05:15:06 PM »

Quote from: "jblank"


Here is the definition of censor:

A person authorized to examine books, films, or other material ...


emphasis mine
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« Reply #137 on: October 12, 2004, 05:15:51 PM »

Keep it cool until I get two seconds to make an announcement ok?
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« Reply #138 on: October 12, 2004, 05:16:14 PM »

Quote
I just want to clear something up - nobody is censoring anybody here.


But you are. I know you don't mean it in a brutish and nasty way. Isn't that the kicker?  biggrin

Grievous Angle's example is just perfect and a fine test case.  Not a word of politics in it. Some news. Very real political implications for those that want to use that filter. Excellent discussion fodder.

"Just now, I saw an article on CNN that Fox may get slammed with a $1 million fine for a stunt on a reality show a year or so ago that involved whipped cream"

Unless your moderator went looking for material to ban, how can you justify banning that topic?

Again, I would much rather the community as a whole be allowed to explore that kind of discussion that have it segregated away in a seperate forum, but I will gladly follow any boardwide guidelines.
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Guy Incognito
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« Reply #139 on: October 12, 2004, 05:16:58 PM »

I think AgtFox said it best: "the people that want R&P are a vocal minority"
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jblank
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« Reply #140 on: October 12, 2004, 05:18:26 PM »

Quote from: "Gromit"
You're right.  The mods can censor ANYTHING they like here.  

That's the beauty of it.  You have no right to express any opinion here that doens't fit within the guidelines set forth by the managers of this site.

Call it what you want, but I call it a good thing.


And thats your opinion. Fortunately for you, if they do start an R & P, since you have no interest in it, it wont impact you. Thats the beauty of it my friend, you dont have to frequent it. Isnt choice a great thing.
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« Reply #141 on: October 12, 2004, 05:19:03 PM »

I said it once and I'll say it again...

Quote
I see no reason for the CG staff to add or moderate forums they don't want to be part of their site. It would be like me asking someone nice enough to let my family move in with them after my house burned down and then me expecting them to remodel their house to suit my needs. I'm not that selfish....
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« Reply #142 on: October 12, 2004, 05:19:50 PM »

Quote from: "Knightshade Dragon"
Keep it cool until I get two seconds to make an announcement ok?


I'm cool as a Hindu cow. Just expressing my opinion and carrying the banner for those of us that do care about continuing the R & P type talk.
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« Reply #143 on: October 12, 2004, 05:19:52 PM »

I would like to see R&P discussion, but it's not my house.
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« Reply #144 on: October 12, 2004, 05:21:16 PM »

Yes, choice is a great thing.

Even for the owners of this site.  slywink
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« Reply #145 on: October 12, 2004, 05:23:36 PM »

Quote from: "Guy Incognito"
I think AgtFox said it best: "the people that want R&P are a vocal minority"


How much of a minority though?  5%? 10%?  25%?

R&P and GGOOTP kept me active around GG.  Not that anyone would lose any sleep if I didn't contribute here.
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« Reply #146 on: October 12, 2004, 05:24:52 PM »

Thanks for adding the new forums.

olaf
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« Reply #147 on: October 12, 2004, 05:25:06 PM »

Quote from: "Guy Incognito"
I think AgtFox said it best: "the people that want R&P are a vocal minority"


So? Do you have any idea the popularity and devotion the R & P people had at GG? I think there are far more of us than are speaking up, especially if my Gmail is any indication. Just because there arent 100 posts in here with me on this issue, that doesnt mean our request should be gaveled down and ignored.
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« Reply #148 on: October 12, 2004, 05:25:57 PM »

Quote from: "jblank"
Quote from: "Guy Incognito"
I think AgtFox said it best: "the people that want R&P are a vocal minority"


So? Do you have any idea the popularity and devotion the R & P people had at GG? I think there are far more of us than are speaking up, especially if my Gmail is any indication. Just because there arent 100 posts in here with me on this issue, that doesnt mean our request should be gaveled down and ignored.


psst.  You're not helping our cause.
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« Reply #149 on: October 12, 2004, 05:27:36 PM »

Quote from: "noxiousdog"
Quote from: "jblank"
Quote from: "Guy Incognito"
I think AgtFox said it best: "the people that want R&P are a vocal minority"


So? Do you have any idea the popularity and devotion the R & P people had at GG? I think there are far more of us than are speaking up, especially if my Gmail is any indication. Just because there arent 100 posts in here with me on this issue, that doesnt mean our request should be gaveled down and ignored.


psst.  You're not helping our cause.


Ok, well here, you take the flag then. Excuse me for speaking from the heart.
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« Reply #150 on: October 12, 2004, 05:28:14 PM »

Quote from: "noxiousdog"
R&P and GGOOTP kept me active around GG.  Not that anyone would lose any sleep if I didn't contribute here.


*sniff*  No staying power for GGNFL with NoxiousDog.  crybaby

To stay on topic, I'll repeat that I'd like to see an R&P, think it was less 'difficult' than some are leading on, and believe it would be successful given the more tight-fisted form of moderation practiced here.  But I also feel strongly that it needs to be something that the CG staff would at least partially enjoy, not just tolerate.  

In any event, I'll sit back now and wait for the ruling this evening.
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« Reply #151 on: October 12, 2004, 05:29:05 PM »

Console Gold was here before us GG refugees migrated here.  While I want a P&R forum, this is their baby and they can do with it as they wish.

I loved GG because I could discuss virtually any subject I wished with a group of intelligent, articulate people, some of whom I came to know as friends.  

Console Gold is not GG.  It's a great place, and the mods have been very welcoming - but this is THEIR community that we are chosing to join.  If they wish to ban P&R, that's their decision.  I will likely migrate elsewhere in that case, but I respect their right to police their forums as they wish.
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« Reply #152 on: October 12, 2004, 05:31:53 PM »

I first went to the GG forums for advice as a Mac user seeking to add a PC to my computer line up. I stayed initially because my two best friends posted there, and I was in EBG a lot. I stayed in the long term because of R&P.

The GG R&P forum was unique. GG was not a partisan site, so the R&P discussions were very politically balanced, if occasionally charged. There was little in the way of ganging up on anyone, as happens in overly conservative or overly liberal boards, and many of the discussions there were among the best political discussions I've seen on the Web. And I say this as a political scientist-in-training who spends 18 hours a day living, breathing and eating religion and politics.

The reason the R&P there was so good was because of the great community, most of which is here now. I never saw animosity bleed over into other threads, and rarely saw a discussion get out of hand (very strange for boards with political discussions).

In short, I think the R&P forum was one of the best things about GG, and I would miss it if it were not here, and probably wouldn't stay (but I'm not making that an ultimatum or antying, there's a good chance I would stay... I do like console games).

I would like to second jblank's offer of moderating/policing the R&P forums. I am on most week evenings and weekdays, and would be happy to give of my time to help recreate, or potentially recreate, the best R&P forum I've ever seen.

Please note this may be one of seven times in the history of the world that jblank and I substantively agree on something. smile
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« Reply #153 on: October 12, 2004, 05:38:26 PM »

Quote from: "Fireball1244"

Please note this may be one of seven times in the history of the world that jblank and I substantively agree on something. smile

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« Reply #154 on: October 12, 2004, 05:39:49 PM »

Thanks for opening the Road to Gold and Hardware Hell forums.  There goes two of my specific suggestions, dang you guys are quick. smile

I'd love to have access to the GG forums as a searchable archive ("The Golden Archives" -- get it, like Golden Arches?  Um, ok, moving on...) if that becomes feasible.  There is a great Knowledge Base there and I frequently searched for back info in Games by Title, Hardware, and EBG to help guide my purchases or get the scoop on films, etc.

On R&P, I'd like to see it in its own forum, at least on a trial basis.  I think it could work well with the moderation philosophy here, but I understand the concerns about moderation resources or other side effects.  There were times when there was a lot of ultrapartisan spam and a fair helping of :roll: but there was also plenty of good discussion, which would be a loss not to have.  However, judging from the fine ship they are running here, I trust the CG staff to do what's best for what they want this place to be.
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« Reply #155 on: October 12, 2004, 05:39:57 PM »

Thanks Kirk, that was well said.
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noxiousdog
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« Reply #156 on: October 12, 2004, 05:41:57 PM »

Quote from: "Zaxxon"
Quote from: "noxiousdog"
R&P and GGOOTP kept me active around GG.  Not that anyone would lose any sleep if I didn't contribute here.


*sniff*  No staying power for GGNFL with NoxiousDog.  crybaby


 :\  How many different ways can I tell you I'm going to crush you and take your money?  slywink  I have nothing further to add to a GGNFL discussion.

 :twisted:
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« Reply #157 on: October 12, 2004, 05:50:41 PM »

I've very much liked what I see here, Knightshade, and having recently become a console owner (Xbox), I'm happy to come to a site that has active info about both PC and Console games.

I'm sticking around.
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« Reply #158 on: October 12, 2004, 05:53:30 PM »

R&P would need more moderation, and thus a headache for KD and the rest of the staff here.

People coming over here from their mass exodus and expecting/semi-demanding an R&P Forum is pretty funny.

Maybe I should go around to other sites that specialize in certain areas and start expecting/semi-demanding they add forums to please my certain tastes?

Use Google, there are other places that specialize in R&P.

If added, I would LOVE to offer some moderation assistance. Guys like Dolphan wouldn't even have a minute to read their own threads and posts. before they get shown the door.

Whatever is decided though, I can live with, because I DO have the upmost confidence that KD and the staff here will have 0 tolerance for BS.
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« Reply #159 on: October 12, 2004, 06:02:09 PM »

Quote from: "tripwire"
R&P would need more moderation, and thus a headache for KD and the rest of the staff here.

People coming over here from their mass exodus and expecting/semi-demanding an R&P Forum is pretty funny.

Maybe I should go around to other sites that specialize in certain areas and start expecting/semi-demanding they add forums to please my certain tastes?

Use Google, there are other places that specialize in R&P.

If added, I would LOVE to offer some moderation assistance. Guys like Dolphan wouldn't even have a minute to read their own threads and posts. before they get shown the door.

Whatever is decided though, I can live with, because I DO have the upmost confidence that KD and the staff here will have 0 tolerance for BS.


Tripwire, nobody is demanding anything. What we have been asking for, is something akin to what we had at GG. There are so many members here, that were regulars in R & P, that we want to continue discussing that here. Our forum got uprooted and chopped up, and since we all formed up here, we were just hoping to continue to have something like we had over there.
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