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Author Topic: Does your 1080p tv REALLY display 1080p? Answer: Nope!  (Read 1522 times)
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gellar
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« on: November 16, 2007, 07:29:07 PM »

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It's a fact of life: when you buy a 1080p set, you never see true 1080p resolution when things are in motion. Gary Merson (of Home Theater Mag and HDGuru.com) looked at 19 TVs listed as 1080p, and found that while their "static" resolution ranged from true 1080 down to a miserable 400, the "motion" resolution of the best sets was 880, while the worst only delivered 360 lines. "You're never going to have full resolution with moving pictures," Merson told us.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/1080p-tvs-never-deliver-1080p-motion-but-some-do-better-than-others-323558.php

Still looks pretty good to me.

gellar

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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2007, 07:33:58 PM »

I'll just stick with computer monitors.
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rickfc
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2007, 08:58:55 PM »

Quote from: gellar on November 16, 2007, 07:29:07 PM

Quote
It's a fact of life: when you buy a 1080p set, you never see true 1080p resolution when things are in motion. Gary Merson (of Home Theater Mag and HDGuru.com) looked at 19 TVs listed as 1080p, and found that while their "static" resolution ranged from true 1080 down to a miserable 400, the "motion" resolution of the best sets was 880, while the worst only delivered 360 lines. "You're never going to have full resolution with moving pictures," Merson told us.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/1080p-tvs-never-deliver-1080p-motion-but-some-do-better-than-others-323558.php

Still looks pretty good to me.

gellar


I say we go back to SDTV!!!!  biggrin

Seriously, it's something cool to know, so thanks for the link, gellar.
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wonderpug
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hmm...


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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2007, 09:21:44 PM »

For comparison, any chance someone knows what standard def 480i and HD 720p "really" display at when things are in motion?
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Calvin
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2007, 09:54:25 PM »

Cool article gellar. Kind of alarming.
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rickfc
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2007, 10:01:58 PM »

Quote from: Calvin on November 16, 2007, 09:54:25 PM

Cool article gellar. Kind of alarming.

Yeah..I'm gonna go throw my 50" 1080p plasma out the window now...  Tongue
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Eightball
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2007, 10:19:12 PM »

Woohoo, the Sharp LCDs scored the best...that's got to count for something, right?

Right?
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2007, 11:19:14 PM »

So Vizio's are crap after all are they?  That was an interesting article.  I suppose I should be holding off on an HDTV purchase for a couple of years until they get the technology down?
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Bob
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2007, 11:23:07 PM »

I have NO idea what any of that article means.
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Calvin
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2007, 11:38:33 PM »

Quote from: Eightball on November 16, 2007, 10:19:12 PM

Woohoo, the Sharp LCDs scored the best...that's got to count for something, right?

Right?

If you have a Sharp, sure  icon_wink
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« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2007, 12:12:41 AM »

Quote from: gellar on November 16, 2007, 07:29:07 PM

Still looks pretty good to me.

gellar

exactly...my Sony KDS-50A2000 failed their '3:2' and 1080p tests back in 2006, but the picture still looks damn good to me and anyone else that's ever commented on it.  it's mildly interesting from a technical standpoint, but i think it's pretty insignificant in reality.  i guess the question to be asked now is how long it will be until we have HDTVs that actually 'pass' all of their tests...

Quote from: wonderpug on November 16, 2007, 09:21:44 PM

For comparison, any chance someone knows what standard def 480i and HD 720p "really" display at when things are in motion?

that would definitely be interesting information to know for the sake of comparison, but i can't imagine anyone taking the time to investigate old technology.
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2007, 12:29:10 AM »

Who gives a flying fuck what these bullshit tests say anyhow? I realized how much BS all the tech babble was when my friend's $3000+ Samsung plasma was barely producing better images than my $1400 Vizio LCD. When picking out a TV just take your shit to the store, hook it up and run CoD4, and make your decision based which TV the game looked best on.
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Sean Lama
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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2007, 12:32:49 AM »

This all sounds really goofy to me.  It's like saying my computer is only at 1280x1024 when I'm looking at a static image, because it drops to 800x600 when there is any motion.

Can that even be right?
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Eightball
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2007, 02:21:58 AM »

Quote from: Calvin on November 16, 2007, 11:38:33 PM

Quote from: Eightball on November 16, 2007, 10:19:12 PM

Woohoo, the Sharp LCDs scored the best...that's got to count for something, right?

Right?

If you have a Sharp, sure  icon_wink

You should have inferred that I do from my post, counselor.
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« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2007, 02:25:33 AM »

Quote from: Eightball on November 17, 2007, 02:21:58 AM

Quote from: Calvin on November 16, 2007, 11:38:33 PM

Quote from: Eightball on November 16, 2007, 10:19:12 PM

Woohoo, the Sharp LCDs scored the best...that's got to count for something, right?

Right?

If you have a Sharp, sure  icon_wink

You should have inferred that I do from my post, counselor.

he's not too Sharp.
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« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2007, 02:50:57 AM »

Quote from: unbreakable on November 17, 2007, 12:32:49 AM

This all sounds really goofy to me.  It's like saying my computer is only at 1280x1024 when I'm looking at a static image, because it drops to 800x600 when there is any motion.

Can that even be right?

That...doesn't make any bloody sense. Your logic seems sound though based on the article.

Any techies here care to explain the how and why of this article?
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wonderpug
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« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2007, 04:06:14 AM »

Here's the motion test explanation:

Quote
Static and Motion Resolution
A new test for this year takes a step further beyond the bandwidth test and judges how well a display is able to handle moving resolution. Because much of what we all watch has motion in it, this test is a valuable tool in judging what we'll really see when watching program material like sports and action movies or with gaming. A consumer electronics industry association created the FPD Benchmark Software for the Professional Blu-ray disc to "accurately evaluate the performance parameters" of displays. The test pattern I selected for our tests is called a monoscope pattern, which consists of a series of four black lines drawn so that they gradually become closer together to form a wedge pattern. You can see this series of wedges at the bottom, top, and sides of a center circle. To test horizontal motion resolution, you look at the bottom wedges. The first pattern is stationary, and the number listed is determined by how close the lines can be displayed and still be discerned as four separate lines. The numbers adjacent to the lines indicate the disc's resolution at those coordinates. The highest number—seen at the point where the four lines begin to merge or blur—is recorded as the static number.

The same pattern is also displayed moving from left to right. The software notes the point at which the pattern blurs and you can no longer distinguish the four lines. This test is somewhat subjective. For instance, I asked some of the store salespeople at the location where I conducted these tests to provide their observations. The numbers varied slightly from observer to observer, but it was always within 25 points of the number I selected. For the sake of consistency, I picked all of the numbers that are recorded in the chart. All the HDTVs I tested for stationary and motion performance were 1080p models.
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Hrothgar
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« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2007, 04:23:29 AM »

Quote from: Ridah on November 17, 2007, 12:29:10 AM

When picking out a TV just take your shit to the store, hook it up and run CoD4, and make your decision based which TV the game looked best on.
That only works if the person who set up the display has a clue about calibration.  I've seen great sets that look like crap in the store because they were poorly set up, had bad lighting and using a bad source.
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« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2007, 12:45:04 AM »

Quote from: Hrothgar on November 17, 2007, 04:23:29 AM

Quote from: Ridah on November 17, 2007, 12:29:10 AM

When picking out a TV just take your shit to the store, hook it up and run CoD4, and make your decision based which TV the game looked best on.
That only works if the person who set up the display has a clue about calibration.  I've seen great sets that look like crap in the store because they were poorly set up, had bad lighting and using a bad source.

True, unless you set the TVs that you test on to their default settings while you test them. The employees could always set the custom setting back when you are done.
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« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2007, 12:49:36 AM »

Quote from: CeeKay on November 17, 2007, 02:25:33 AM

Quote from: Eightball on November 17, 2007, 02:21:58 AM

Quote from: Calvin on November 16, 2007, 11:38:33 PM

Quote from: Eightball on November 16, 2007, 10:19:12 PM

Woohoo, the Sharp LCDs scored the best...that's got to count for something, right?

Right?

If you have a Sharp, sure  icon_wink

You should have inferred that I do from my post, counselor.

he's not too Sharp.

Apparently both of you clowns missed the sarcasm.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2007, 01:02:59 AM »

Quote from: Calvin on November 18, 2007, 12:49:36 AM

Quote from: CeeKay on November 17, 2007, 02:25:33 AM

Quote from: Eightball on November 17, 2007, 02:21:58 AM

Quote from: Calvin on November 16, 2007, 11:38:33 PM

Quote from: Eightball on November 16, 2007, 10:19:12 PM

Woohoo, the Sharp LCDs scored the best...that's got to count for something, right?

Right?

If you have a Sharp, sure  icon_wink

You should have inferred that I do from my post, counselor.

he's not too Sharp.

Apparently both of you clowns missed the sarcasm.

well, if it was in 1080p and in motion then it probably wasn't very clear.
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« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2007, 02:51:51 AM »

If it looks better (in motion) to the end user when it's in motion than the sets of lower resolution.. then who cares?

I'd like to see some of those motion tests done on 720p sets. I'd bet the results are similar in that you don't get full resolution when the picture's in motion.

I don't get what the point of this is.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2007, 02:53:58 AM by Thin_J » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2007, 06:02:07 AM »

It just shows there is something for future sets to improve, I guess.
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PaulBot
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« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2007, 01:08:42 AM »

So what does this mean for my 5" B&W portable TV when I'm watching something in motion?
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« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2007, 04:46:51 AM »

Quote from: PaulBot on November 19, 2007, 01:08:42 AM

So what does this mean for my 5" B&W portable TV when I'm watching something in motion?

It means what your seeing is infact NOT moving, just your imagination creating an image moving in the way your brain thinks it should be moving.
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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2007, 05:28:08 AM »

Quote from: wonderpug on November 17, 2007, 04:06:14 AM

Here's the motion test explanation:

Quote
Static and Motion Resolution
A new test for this year takes a step further beyond the bandwidth test and judges how well a display is able to handle moving resolution. Because much of what we all watch has motion in it, this test is a valuable tool in judging what we'll really see when watching program material like sports and action movies or with gaming. A consumer electronics industry association created the FPD Benchmark Software for the Professional Blu-ray disc to "accurately evaluate the performance parameters" of displays. The test pattern I selected for our tests is called a monoscope pattern, which consists of a series of four black lines drawn so that they gradually become closer together to form a wedge pattern. You can see this series of wedges at the bottom, top, and sides of a center circle. To test horizontal motion resolution, you look at the bottom wedges. The first pattern is stationary, and the number listed is determined by how close the lines can be displayed and still be discerned as four separate lines. The numbers adjacent to the lines indicate the disc's resolution at those coordinates. The highest number—seen at the point where the four lines begin to merge or blur—is recorded as the static number.

The same pattern is also displayed moving from left to right. The software notes the point at which the pattern blurs and you can no longer distinguish the four lines. This test is somewhat subjective. For instance, I asked some of the store salespeople at the location where I conducted these tests to provide their observations. The numbers varied slightly from observer to observer, but it was always within 25 points of the number I selected. For the sake of consistency, I picked all of the numbers that are recorded in the chart. All the HDTVs I tested for stationary and motion performance were 1080p models.

So what they're measuring is latency not resolution.  Pretty much every current HD technology; plasma, LCD, DLP, LCoS, is fixed pixel meaning that the picture is made up of a grid of pixels that's always 1920x1080 for 1080p or 1280x720 for 720p.  The number of pixels doesn't change at any time, it physically can't.  The latency of the display on the other hand is going to affect what the resolution "appears" to be.  The latency holds enough residual image in the pixels as the object moves past them to give the screen the appearance of reduced resolution.  It is not a literally a different resolution even though the article makes it sound as if it is. 
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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2007, 06:53:16 AM »

Quote from: PaulBot on November 19, 2007, 01:08:42 AM

So what does this mean for my 5" B&W portable TV when I'm watching something in motion?

It means you have to take it with you into the shower to see true 1080p.
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« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2007, 02:09:30 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on November 19, 2007, 06:53:16 AM

Quote from: PaulBot on November 19, 2007, 01:08:42 AM

So what does this mean for my 5" B&W portable TV when I'm watching something in motion?

It means you have to take it with you into the shower to see true 1080p.

That's what I'll do then! I want my TRUE 1080p!!!
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