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Author Topic: Coming out of a strip club at 3AM is the best time to get shot  (Read 1925 times)
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PR_GMR
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« on: April 25, 2008, 03:22:51 PM »

Apparently.

The controversial Sean Bell trial just rendered its verdict in NYC. And all three cops were acquitted... of pumping 50 rounds of bullets into Sean Bell. Bell was unarmed and one of the cops even reloaded his gun during the fracas. The poor widow of the man ran away in hysterics after the 'Not Guilty' verdict was read.

Here in Baltimore, just two nights ago, an out-of-uniform cop was gunned down by one of his own (!!) after an altercation which took place (you guess it!) at 2Am in the morning after the local Haven strip club here in Pulaski Hwy and Haven st declared 'last call'.

Boys and girls.. Well, er, boys only. Be very afraid of coming out of a strip club at closing time. That's when most shit hits the fan.
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The Grue
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2008, 03:25:17 PM »

Titties make men crazy.
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2008, 03:32:23 PM »

Quote
Oliver fired 31 shots in the incident, Isnora fired 11, and Cooper fired four times.

31 freaking shots?  what, did they think the guy was in full body armor or something?
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PR_GMR
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2008, 03:34:03 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on April 25, 2008, 03:25:17 PM

Titties make men crazy.

Best. response. ever.  icon_lol
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PR_GMR
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2008, 03:35:27 PM »

Quote from: CeeKay on April 25, 2008, 03:32:23 PM

Quote
Oliver fired 31 shots in the incident, Isnora fired 11, and Cooper fired four times.

31 freaking shots?  what, did they think the guy was in full body armor or something?

Exactly. Think about the time it takes to unload that many shots (even with an automatic weapon). He even reloaded!
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 03:48:27 PM »

Quote from: The Grue on April 25, 2008, 03:25:17 PM

Titties make men crazy.

QFT!
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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 04:13:49 PM »

Makes me furious. First the Diallo murderers got away, now this. And Abner Louima, Patrick Dorismond, etc. That last one especially was rotten, as under cover cops asked a guy training to be a security guard for drugs and he got mad and tried to push them away, at which point they shot him in the face. Then, Giuliani released his criminal records to the public to show that it was okay to murder the guy because he'd done some bad stuff in the past.

Fucking NYC. And Cincinnati. And Chicago. And Denver. And LA.
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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 04:53:19 PM »

Quote from: PR_GMR on April 25, 2008, 03:35:27 PM

Exactly. Think about the time it takes to unload that many shots (even with an automatic weapon). He even reloaded!

So I'm curious. Do you think they were just jonesing to kill someone? From what I can gather, they all testified that things went crazy. The guy who reloaded thought they were under fire. What's *your* explanation for the whole mess? You think it inconceivable that they reacted to a perceived threat and panicked? Hate to say it, but they are humans. If you thought your life was in danger I reckon you'd shoot 31 times time reload too until you felt safe. Was it a screwup? Absolutely. Should they turn in their badges and find another line of work? Absolutely. But you can't say how someone will react in a situation like until they are in a situation like that. This is a tragedy, but I don't know about all the outrage like they were a group of dirty cops who murdered someone for the fun of it.
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Remus West
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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 04:59:32 PM »

While I agree with Crux's statement to a point I do think they deserve more than just finding a new line of work.  If you or I were to lose control of our car and kill someone with it we would face charges of manslaughter or negligent homicide with a conviction likely.  They should have faced the same.  They made a mistake that cost an innocent man his life.  At the very least they deserve to be held to the same level of accountability as the rest of the populus.  Being trained police officers I would say they should be held to a higher standard where their guns are concerned.
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« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 05:02:26 PM »

Yeah. Panic can strike anyone, but as a police officer, it is their job to maintain their cool in dangerous and chaotic situations.
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hepcat
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« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 05:20:49 PM »

JeffV ALWAYS shoots something when he's at a strip club...but it ain't a firearm.

p.s.  opened up cnn.com to read about the trial and, of course, there was that opportunistic sleazeball Al Sharpton right in the thick of things.    icon_mad
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 05:47:07 PM by hepcat » Logged

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PR_GMR
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« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2008, 06:15:22 PM »

Quote from: Crux on April 25, 2008, 04:53:19 PM

Quote from: PR_GMR on April 25, 2008, 03:35:27 PM

Exactly. Think about the time it takes to unload that many shots (even with an automatic weapon). He even reloaded!

So I'm curious. Do you think they were just jonesing to kill someone? From what I can gather, they all testified that things went crazy. The guy who reloaded thought they were under fire. What's *your* explanation for the whole mess? You think it inconceivable that they reacted to a perceived threat and panicked? Hate to say it, but they are humans. If you thought your life was in danger I reckon you'd shoot 31 times time reload too until you felt safe. Was it a screwup? Absolutely. Should they turn in their badges and find another line of work? Absolutely. But you can't say how someone will react in a situation like until they are in a situation like that. This is a tragedy, but I don't know about all the outrage like they were a group of dirty cops who murdered someone for the fun of it.

My response is in line with Remus'--They should be charged with negligent homicide and find a new line of work. From what I've read of the case (and forgive me if I lack 100% of the details), the poor man was trying to get away in his car when they just unloaded on him. The cops excuse was that one of their own was in the way of the car at the time. Still, 50 shots? The situation wasn't Vietnam or Iraq. Excessive force was used.
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Rumpy
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« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2008, 06:23:13 PM »

Sheesh. I have a friend who told me a story of someone who just walked in one night with a shotgun. Didn't shoot at anybody, but makes you wonder. Where are the bouncers? And this at the only club in the city.
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CSL
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« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2008, 10:58:42 PM »

What's with the Cooper fellow only firing four shots in comparison to the 11 and 31 other ones?
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Crux
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« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2008, 11:14:44 PM »

Quote from: Purge on April 25, 2008, 05:02:26 PM

Yeah. Panic can strike anyone, but as a police officer, it is their job to maintain their cool in dangerous and chaotic situations.

Not arguing that for a second. My point is, not many people are actually capable of maintaining their cool in dangerous and chaotic situations. Sadly it is often difficult to tell who is and isn't capable of doing so except by placing them in dangerous and chaotic situations. Training can mitigate this to a large degree, but there is never a 100% guarantee.

Quote
From what I've read of the case (and forgive me if I lack 100% of the details), the poor man was trying to get away in his car when they just unloaded on him. The cops excuse was that one of their own was in the way of the car at the time. Still, 50 shots? The situation wasn't Vietnam or Iraq. Excessive force was used.

Well, they testified that they heard one of the men tell the other one to go get his gun. The problem here is the divide between perception and reality.

From what I've read, it appears the police officers misheard one of the guys talking about his gun. This put them on high alert. They then over-reacted (obviously), and in all of the firing thought *they* were under fire, hence the excessive amount of bullets fired themselves.

It's a shitty, shitty situation. I honestly don't know a good solution. An innocent man lost his life. I don't know what putting any of the officers in question in jail for 15 years accomplishes however. Nothing I've read to date puts them as people generally dangerous to society. They were police officers who thought they were doing their job. Turns out they suck at it.
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Remus West
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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2008, 11:56:50 PM »

Quote from: Crux on April 25, 2008, 11:14:44 PM

It's a shitty, shitty situation. I honestly don't know a good solution. An innocent man lost his life. I don't know what putting any of the officers in question in jail for 15 years accomplishes however. Nothing I've read to date puts them as people generally dangerous to society. They were police officers who thought they were doing their job. Turns out they suck at it.
And that sucking at it makes them dangerous to society.  Fatally so for Sean Bell.  I agree that 15 years would be to much.  I just think "you suck at being cops find a different job" is far to little.  Not sure what I would think appropriate.  It is indeed a horrid situation.
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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2008, 11:57:58 PM »

Quote from: CSL on April 25, 2008, 10:58:42 PM

What's with the Cooper fellow only firing four shots in comparison to the 11 and 31 other ones?
Obviously just a rookie. icon_lol
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Isgrimnur
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« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2008, 12:13:21 AM »

I miss Rich.  I'm sure his take on this situation would be enlightening.
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« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2008, 12:18:54 AM »

I'm not going to argue with the idea that the police overreacted nor am I going to argue that some sort of lesser penalty was the deserved.  However, having seen stupid incidents with police escalate into near violence, I do have to say that when a cop tells you to act a certain way, not doing so will often result in the police reacting with deadly force.  It's an unfortunate truth that we've reached the point where police credibility is so low, often with good reason, that people don't react to police instructions.  Many of these cases seem to involve situations like that.

Also, it's hard to argue that this was a racially motivated situation when two of the five cops that fired were black and one of those was the first to fire.




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« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2008, 04:15:50 AM »

My take on this is always the same.

If you are the good guys, you dont get to shoot first.



These Cops should be in jail, the rest of us dont get the "but but I was scared" defense.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 04:18:27 AM by TC Weidner » Logged
ATB
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« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2008, 05:23:11 AM »

Apparently, they thought he was trying to run them over.

Car as a weapon + 'gun' in the car = legitimate shooting.

Police are allowed to kill the driver of a car who is in the act of using said car as a weapon that endangers human life.

As for the number of shots: Car as a weapon + 'gun' in the car + four (?) men in a car + they just tried to run you over + they could all have guns + the officers identified themselves as police = pull the trigger until you and your fellow cops are safe.  Bottom line.

Now this is sheerly the police's side as there's question as to whether they did identify themselves as cops, but IF what they say is true, it's a completely clean shoot regardless of the number of rounds.
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CeeKay
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« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2008, 05:23:46 AM »

whatever happened to 1 shot 1 kill?  maybe they really need to play some more GTA to get it down.
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« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2008, 05:57:26 AM »

Quote from: TC Weidner on April 26, 2008, 04:15:50 AM

My take on this is always the same.

If you are the good guys, you dont get to shoot first.
That's among the most absurd things I've ever read. First, as ATB said, whenever someone tries to run over a cop that's considered a weapon and grounds to shoot. Second, do you seriously believe a cop should just stand there as a bad guy takes a gun and points it at him and wait for him to shoot? Or if a bad guy has a bunch of hostages at gunpoint that a sniper shouldn't take him out?

I don't think anyone here, including myself, has had access to enough evidence in the case to offer a valid opinion as to whether or not the judge did the right thing.
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« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2008, 11:55:23 AM »

Quote from: TC Weidner on April 26, 2008, 04:15:50 AM

These Cops should be in jail, the rest of us dont get the "but but I was scared" defense.

Actually, we do get that defense too.
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ScubaV
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« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2008, 01:42:08 PM »

More evidence for why you should give cops the same fear and respect you would an armed criminal, and for the same reason: they might gun you down for no reason or any reason at all.
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« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2008, 06:20:57 PM »

Quote from: ScubaV on April 26, 2008, 01:42:08 PM

More evidence for why you should give cops the same fear and respect you would an armed criminal, and for the same reason: they might gun you down for no reason or any reason at all.

Oh indeed.  If this guy had just stopped and obliged them instead of trying to run them down with his car they probably would have shot him anyway.

In fact, I was mowing my lawn yesterday and a police car drove by. She saw me mowing, stopped her car, got out and shot me.
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« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2008, 07:00:55 PM »

Quote from: ATB on April 26, 2008, 06:20:57 PM

Quote from: ScubaV on April 26, 2008, 01:42:08 PM

More evidence for why you should give cops the same fear and respect you would an armed criminal, and for the same reason: they might gun you down for no reason or any reason at all.

Oh indeed.  If this guy had just stopped and obliged them instead of trying to run them down with his car they probably would have shot him anyway.

In fact, I was mowing my lawn yesterday and a police car drove by. She saw me mowing, stopped her car, got out and shot me.


Now you're just teasing us with fantasies.
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« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2008, 07:02:03 PM »

Quote from: Harkonis on April 26, 2008, 07:00:55 PM

Quote from: ATB on April 26, 2008, 06:20:57 PM

Quote from: ScubaV on April 26, 2008, 01:42:08 PM

More evidence for why you should give cops the same fear and respect you would an armed criminal, and for the same reason: they might gun you down for no reason or any reason at all.

Oh indeed.  If this guy had just stopped and obliged them instead of trying to run them down with his car they probably would have shot him anyway.

In fact, I was mowing my lawn yesterday and a police car drove by. She saw me mowing, stopped her car, got out and shot me.


Now you're just teasing us with fantasies.

You're just saying that cause I mow my lawn in a speedo.  unibrow
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« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2008, 10:08:45 PM »

Iím a little nervous to wade into this conversation, but Iíd like to comment on criticisms over the number of shots fired.  For those who donít know, Iím a police officer.  That no doubt gives me somewhat of a pro-police bias, but Iím not here to support the shooting.  I know very little about the incident, and Iím hesitant to rely on any media reports (either pro or anti police) about the incident.

That being said, people shouldnít be concerned over the number of shots fired, but whether it was justified to shoot the victim in the first place.  My training includes a use of force chart, which allows firearms to be used in situations of serious bodily harm or death.  The purpose of the firearm is to kill the suspect and stop the threat.  That means the moment I take my first shot, Iím trying to kill the suspect and stop him.  I will not stop shooting until the threat is stopped.

Popular media have given people the two very false impressions, the first being that we can take perfectly aimed shots in a firefight.  The reality is that in any shooting situation, when our bodies kick into high gear and the adrenaline is pumping, weíre lucky to just hit the target, let alone get off a perfectly aimed shot.  Itís nice to say police should always remain calm, but biological reality is that in fight or flight situations when you fear for your life, your own body betrays you.  Evolution designed our body back when self defence involved clubbing someone in the head with a large rock.  When your body kicks into fight or flight mode, you lose peripheral vision, fine motor skills and even some of your ability to think and reason.  Thatís why police in general are trained to shoot the centre mass of a target (the chest) versus somewhere like the head which could be more lethal.

The second false impression is that a single bullet will kill someone.  Human bodies are amazingly resilient, and even if your one shot is a fatal hit, it can take people several minutes to actually lose consciousness or die.  Look at the infamous 1980ís FBI Miami shootout.  Two suspects, only one of whom was really shooting, were able to overcome multiple lethal gunshot wounds and return fire killing two FBI agents and seriously wounding another five.  Both suspects would have died from some of the first rounds to hit them, but it takes time for your body to bleed out or organs to totally shut down.

So where am I going with all of this?  All Iím trying to say is that if the police truly felt the suspect was trying to run them down, I donít think the number of shots fired is at all unreasonable.  They were trying to kill him, period.  Until youíre sure that car is stopped and the driver no longer a threat, you should keep shooting.  The only question that should be focused on is whether they were justified to shoot and the circumstances leading up to the shooting.
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« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2008, 03:35:01 PM »

Quote from: ATB on April 26, 2008, 07:02:03 PM

Quote from: Harkonis on April 26, 2008, 07:00:55 PM

Quote from: ATB on April 26, 2008, 06:20:57 PM

Quote from: ScubaV on April 26, 2008, 01:42:08 PM

More evidence for why you should give cops the same fear and respect you would an armed criminal, and for the same reason: they might gun you down for no reason or any reason at all.

Oh indeed.  If this guy had just stopped and obliged them instead of trying to run them down with his car they probably would have shot him anyway.

In fact, I was mowing my lawn yesterday and a police car drove by. She saw me mowing, stopped her car, got out and shot me.


Now you're just teasing us with fantasies.

You're just saying that cause I mow my lawn in a speedo.  unibrow

no, i think it's more that no one believes you'd willingly perform manual labor of any sort...   icon_razz

and windows95, that was an incredibly sincere and well thought out response.  you have absolutely no reason to feel nervous for responding.  i believe i speak for most of us when I say that no matter what happened, there are still many, many good cops out there helping people on a daily basis.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2008, 03:37:10 PM by hepcat » Logged

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PR_GMR
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« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2008, 03:46:34 PM »

Quote from: hepcat on April 27, 2008, 03:35:01 PM

Quote from: ATB on April 26, 2008, 07:02:03 PM

Quote from: Harkonis on April 26, 2008, 07:00:55 PM

Quote from: ATB on April 26, 2008, 06:20:57 PM

Quote from: ScubaV on April 26, 2008, 01:42:08 PM

More evidence for why you should give cops the same fear and respect you would an armed criminal, and for the same reason: they might gun you down for no reason or any reason at all.

Oh indeed.  If this guy had just stopped and obliged them instead of trying to run them down with his car they probably would have shot him anyway.

In fact, I was mowing my lawn yesterday and a police car drove by. She saw me mowing, stopped her car, got out and shot me.


Now you're just teasing us with fantasies.

You're just saying that cause I mow my lawn in a speedo.  unibrow

no, i think it's more that no one believes you'd willingly perform manual labor of any sort...   icon_razz

and windows95, that was an incredibly sincere and well thought out response.  you have absolutely no reason to feel nervous for responding.  i believe i speak for most of us when I say that no matter what happened, there are still many, many good cops out there helping people on a daily basis.

Agreed. I didn't know you were a policeman, Windows, and your post does give me much to think about. It's good to get the perspective of a policeman on this type of situation. I will go on a record that I've no problem with police in general, just the (very) few bad apples.
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