CNN - Obama to announce that Osama Bin Laden has been killed

[hepcat]

I apologize, I have been really busy at work. The comment made was that one responsible for civilian deaths should be held accountable.

How many Iraqis died in both Gulf wars? How many were civilians? Responsibility isn't just due to direct input, it is also from lack of measures or preparedness. It's also for being concerned with profit margins over human life (45K US dead in 2009, attributed to no insurance for medical care!)

That is 5x the number of people who died in 9/11.

I recall reading reports indicating the barrier protecting New Orleans was only rated for a Class 4 hurricane, and they *knew* this and chose not to fix it even after Hurricane Andrew (IIRC). Responsibility didn't just lie on GWB (but on all levels of government), but that doesn't un-fuck the situation.

if one holds true the statement made above, there would certainly be a lot more people put up against a wall and shot for their incompetence, ignorance, and greed.

You gonna be the one to pull the trigger?

I can't think of one justice system on the face of the planet that has only one type of sentencing.

[Bullwinkle]

I'll echo those who are a little disappointed to see people using bin Laden's death as a reason to party in the streets. I can't help but think of the images from the Middle East after 911 when I see the images from Sunday night. However, they are under totally different circumstances. No rational person in the world should be cheering for the death of over 3,000 innocent civilians, and it's understandable that people will be happy when the mastermind behind those attacks is finally brought to justice. I just wish our collective reaction would have been a silent fist pump or something.

Then again, the way we got him is incredibly badass. We crashed a friggin helicopter into his front yard and shot him in the eye. It's hard to hear about that and resist the urge to chant "USA! USA!" over and over again.

This sums up my internal conflict very well.  Nicely said.

Mostly I'm happy, though.  I'm just trying to be a little discreet about it.

[Razgon]

Its a wierd thing, isn't it? This whole debacle. What struck me most was while reading the article Huw linked.

Justice," Barack Obama called his death. In the old days, of course, "justice" meant due process, a court, a hearing, a defence, a trial. Like the sons of Saddam, Bin Laden was gunned down.

Thats the hub, isn't it? While its nice that the man responsible for these atrocities is dead, there's the little nagging voice asking if it was justice, or revenge.

Then again, thats the question with courts in general - when is it justice, and when is revenge?

[Laner]

I just wish our collective reaction would have been a silent fist pump or something.

For the vast, vast majority of people, that's exactly what their reaction was.  No one in my neighborhood, or my church, or my job were running around shouting "USA! USA!" after hearing the news.  

I'm glad we got the guy, and I'm a little annoyed (in general, not directed at anyone here) at all of the hand-wringing and passive-aggressive jabs aimed at those who feel the same.

[Flatlander]

Its a wierd thing, isn't it? This whole debacle. What struck me most was while reading the article Huw linked.

Justice," Barack Obama called his death. In the old days, of course, "justice" meant due process, a court, a hearing, a defence, a trial. Like the sons of Saddam, Bin Laden was gunned down.

Thats the hub, isn't it? While its nice that the man responsible for these atrocities is dead, there's the little nagging voice asking if it was justice, or revenge.

Then again, thats the question with courts in general - when is it justice, and when is revenge?

 

I have to admit that Bin Laden's death has put a smile on my face and a song in my heart that still hasn't quite faded.    Call it justice or call it revenge,  I don't really care.   He earned this death.      It's also rather fun to watch the ill-disguised bitterness of professional America haters like Robert Fisk  reacting to Bin Laden finally getting his just deserts.

[cheeba]

From the article...

In the old days, of course, "justice" meant due process, a court, a hearing, a defence, a trial.

What utter bullshit. In what some consider "the old days", justice meant an accusation, a rope and a tree. In what others consider "the old days", justice meant a pistol duel at dawn for an insult. And of course in some cultures justice is throwing stones at a woman until she dies for having sex with a man, while in other cultures that is the definition of injustice. Justice isn't some absolute and throwing around a standard like this is simplistic and intentionally naive.

And relativism sucks, Purge.

[hepcat]

It's also rather fun to watch the ill-disguised bitterness of professional America haters like Robert Fisk  reacting to Bin Laden finally getting his just deserts.

I don't see that, I guess.  I think Fisk writes some fascinating stuff about the world outside your door that you may not get to see...and from the point of view of someone who isn't necessarily going to tell you what you want to hear.  He's opinionated but I don't find him grossly prejudicial against any one nationality.

[leo8877]

Did anyone see that Steelers RB Rashard Mendenhall went all out on Twitter and is defending bin laden?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/05/03/rashard.mendenhall.osama.bin.laden.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a10&eref=sihp

[Razgon]

From the article...

In the old days, of course, "justice" meant due process, a court, a hearing, a defence, a trial.

What utter bullshit. In what some consider "the old days", justice meant an accusation, a rope and a tree. In what others consider "the old days", justice meant a pistol duel at dawn for an insult. And of course in some cultures justice is throwing stones at a woman until she dies for having sex with a man, while in other cultures that is the definition of injustice. Justice isn't some absolute and throwing around a standard like this is simplistic and intentionally naive.

And relativism sucks, Purge.

I think he meant old days, as before today, Cheeba.

And is the stoning standards the standards you want USA to hold to? The courts of denmark at least, are here to give justice, and to avoid revenge. I know many western countries hold to the same ideals - Doesn't the US?

[Flatlander]

It's also rather fun to watch the ill-disguised bitterness of professional America haters like Robert Fisk  reacting to Bin Laden finally getting his just deserts.

I don't see that, I guess.  I think Fisk writes some fascinating stuff about the world outside your door that you may not get to see...and from the point of view of someone who isn't necessarily going to tell you what you want to hear.  He's opinionated but I don't find him grossly prejudicial against any one nationality.

Yeah,  his 9-11 truther stuff is especially fascinating.    Funny, too.

[cheeba]

I think he meant old days, as before today, Cheeba.

And is the stoning standards the standards you want USA to hold to? The courts of denmark at least, are here to give justice, and to avoid revenge. I know many western countries hold to the same ideals - Doesn't the US?

Again, simplistic and naive, not to mention misleading with the stoning standards part .

Justice is a gray area. If we had captured him or bombed him to oblivion, people would call it an injustice for breaching Pakistani sovereignty. There is no other case like this one, so there's really no point in looking at hypotheticals and ideals. If you are the mastermind behind the murder of more than 3,000 people on American soil (including embassies and USS Cole), then the USA will find you, no matter how long it takes, and an American will shoot you in the face, no matter where you are in the world. The reality is that is justice because Americans have determined it to be so and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Of course, people aren't going to like the sound of that, but it's the truth... justice is what we (the people, not just Americans) make of it. Ideals are all great, but they don't do a thing to make the gray area any more black and white.

[hepcat]

It's also rather fun to watch the ill-disguised bitterness of professional America haters like Robert Fisk  reacting to Bin Laden finally getting his just deserts.

I don't see that, I guess.  I think Fisk writes some fascinating stuff about the world outside your door that you may not get to see...and from the point of view of someone who isn't necessarily going to tell you what you want to hear.  He's opinionated but I don't find him grossly prejudicial against any one nationality.

Yeah,  his 9-11 truther stuff is especially fascinating.    Funny, too.

He has questions about what went down that day, as did the families of those who died during 9/11.  Wanting the truth about what happened that day doesn't automatically mean that there's a conspiracy theory involving our government.  He even stresses that he doesn't believe Bush and his administration are involved.

[Fireball1244]

I'll echo those who are a little disappointed to see people using bin Laden's death as a reason to party in the streets. I can't help but think of the images from the Middle East after 911 when I see the images from Sunday night. However, they are under totally different circumstances. No rational person in the world should be cheering for the death of over 3,000 innocent civilians, and it's understandable that people will be happy when the mastermind behind those attacks is finally brought to justice. I just wish our collective reaction would have been a silent fist pump or something.

Then again, the way we got him is incredibly badass. We crashed a friggin helicopter into his front yard and shot him in the eye. It's hard to hear about that and resist the urge to chant "USA! USA!" over and over again.

This sums up my internal conflict very well.  Nicely said.

Mostly I'm happy, though.  I'm just trying to be a little discreet about it.

Agreed. I understand the conflict, but I was also one of the people outside the White House chanting USA! USA!

[Soulchilde]

Honestly, I was quite pumped when I heard the news, but I attend to be simplistic in my views.  He didn't deserve a trial.  The man and his organization declared war on you and me.   If anything the US honored him as a combatant and just didn't have some Wet work team snuff him out quietly.  He went down in a blaze of glory

Fuck him

[Flatlander]

It's also rather fun to watch the ill-disguised bitterness of professional America haters like Robert Fisk  reacting to Bin Laden finally getting his just deserts.

I don't see that, I guess.  I think Fisk writes some fascinating stuff about the world outside your door that you may not get to see...and from the point of view of someone who isn't necessarily going to tell you what you want to hear.  He's opinionated but I don't find him grossly prejudicial against any one nationality.

Yeah,  his 9-11 truther stuff is especially fascinating.    Funny, too.

He has questions about what went down that day, as did the families of those who died during 9/11.  Wanting the truth about what happened that day doesn't automatically mean that there's a conspiracy theory involving our government.  He even stresses that he doesn't believe Bush and his administration are involved.

No, he doesn't come right out and claim the Bush Administration  faked 9-11,  but he parrots the same tired 9-11 Truther conspiracy theories trying to cast doubt as to who conducted the attacks, what actually caused the buildings to fall, or that the Pentagon was even struck by a plane at all.      His main complaint about his fellow Truthers is that they are making him uncomfortable with their ranting and raving.   He claims to want to know the "truth" of 9-11?   Bin Laden himself took credit for the attacks.

He [Zacarias Moussaoui] has no connection whatsoever with the events of September 11th, and I am certain of what I say, because I was responsible for entrusting the 19 brothers – Allah have mercy upon them – with those raids, and I did not assign brother Zacarias to be with them on that mission.

Of course Fisk seemed to have dropped the subject entirely after this one column, so it's likely that he realized he'd strayed a bit too far into kook territory than was good for his career.

[metallicorphan]

some new info is in

Apparently Bin Laden was not armed

he was not using his wife as a human shield

and she was shot in the leg when she 'attacked' the soldiers,and she was not killed



make of this info what you will,the details don't change any of my views anyway

[hepcat]

Of course Fisk seemed to have dropped the subject entirely after this one column, so it's likely that he realized he'd strayed a bit too far into kook territory than was good for his career.

I think you're reading into his piece what you want and not what was intended.  Of course, the same could be said of my interpretation.  But I don't see parroting so much as a journalist asking why these questions were not answered to some folk's satisfaction at the time the article was written.  He makes the effort to distance himself from those who see conspiracies, but keeps the fundamental inquiry into why people are asking these questions.  He probably dropped it because they were eventually answered to his satisfaction.  But that's what journalists do:  they ask questions.  Is that wrong?  

Note: as we're now hearing conflicting stories (according to MO) about the death of bin Laden, is it now anti-American to want the truth on that matter?  I remember when Jessica Lynch was captured and then freed.  There was the story the army told us...then there was the truth as discovered by journalists eventually.  Same goes for Pat Tillman.  Not every attempt to question the official story is made by folks who hate America. 

[CeeKay]

So, how long before Osama makes his South Park appearance?  I remember they had Saddam on the show pretty quickly after his capture.

[ATB]

The expectation that americans can be held to a higher standard is a nice form of bigotry, no?

[Scuzz]

So, how long before Osama makes his South Park appearance?  I remember they had Saddam on the show pretty quickly after his capture.

He was already killed on South Park during the "Jersey" episode. They brought in al-Quida to get rid of the jersey immigrants and then when that battle was won they took out Osama.

[Huw the Poo]

Flatlander, I'm really not seeing what you're seeing.  I've been reading the Independent, and therefore Robert Fisk, for years and I've never seen him so much as pigeonhole a country, let alone outright hate one.  Your reaction in this thread is a prime example of why I don't feel comfortable discussing things like 9/11 on this forum.  I'm sorry to say it but too many Americans are still not ready to have a rational debate on that and similar subjects.  I remember Metallicorphan here getting a proper drubbing on either this board or OO for even daring to suggest that the US government's explanation of 9/11 may not be 100% accurate.

Also, as Hepcat said, it is the job of a journalist to seek truth in any matter.  It's what they do, and we should be thankful that there are still some left who don't just repeat government press releases and do all their investigations via Wikipedia.

[Scuzz]

Regarding the people celebrating....

Granted the 50,000 at the Phillies game chanting USA....but the news footage I saw of Times Square (10pm my time so 1am in NYC) showed maybe 50-100 people. The crowd in front of the White House looked like maybe 500 by that time. Locally maybe a dozen people went out to the local "free speech corner" after the announcement.

I don't think most people did more than just high five their friends and families.

[CeeKay]

All I did was crack open a nice cold bottle of Sam Adam's Summer Ale while watching the speech on my Samsung LCD TV while I was wearing my Champions Sneakers, Levi Straus Cargo shorts and a comfortable Jerzees tshirt.


Sent via TapaTalk from my Apple iPhone 4 on the AT&T network.

[hepcat]

The expectation that americans can be held to a higher standard is a nice form of bigotry, no?

No, not really.  We have that expectation cited to us daily by religion and government.  Most nations do.

[Harkonis]

The expectation that americans can be held to a higher standard is a nice form of bigotry, no?

No, not really.  We have that expectation cited to us daily by religion and government.  Most nations do.

sadly a large percentage of people I know (mostly Americans) are bigots.

[Teggy]

Did anyone see that Steelers RB Rashard Mendenhall went all out on Twitter and is defending bin laden?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/05/03/rashard.mendenhall.osama.bin.laden.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a10&eref=sihp

And Luke Scott breathes a sigh of relief...

[msteelers]

Mostly I'm happy, though.  I'm just trying to be a little discreet about it.

I'm very happy with the way it all went down, and I don't think any American should feel guilty that we got the guy. In a perfect scenario, we capture him and put him on trial... but this is a close second.

[hepcat]

Mostly I'm happy, though.  I'm just trying to be a little discreet about it.

I'm very happy with the way it all went down, and I don't think any American should feel guilty that we got the guy. In a perfect scenario, we capture him and put him on trial... but this is a close second.

I can't help but wonder how much intel we could have received from this guy had we captured him alive, though.  

sadly a large percentage of people I know (mostly Americans) are bigots.

to be fair though, the overwhelming majority of people you know are likely american.  bigotry is far worse in some countries, far better in others.  but it's not just an american thing.

[msteelers]

Did anyone see that Steelers RB Rashard Mendenhall went all out on Twitter and is defending bin laden?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/05/03/rashard.mendenhall.osama.bin.laden.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a10&eref=sihp

He didn't go "all out" to defend bin Laden. He didn't really defend him at all. The main point of his posts is that we shouldn't be celebrating the death of a man, which isn't that crazy or stupid of an idea. However, Mendenhall is a [censured] idiot and needs to drop his twitter account. He's the worst kind of stupid, the kind that thinks he's educated. Remember he also chimed in to defend Adrian Peterson's remarks that the NFL is "modern day slavery". 

[msteelers]

Mostly I'm happy, though.  I'm just trying to be a little discreet about it.

I'm very happy with the way it all went down, and I don't think any American should feel guilty that we got the guy. In a perfect scenario, we capture him and put him on trial... but this is a close second.

I can't help but wonder how much intel we could have received from this guy had we captured him alive, though. 

Yes, but the early reports is that they recovered a significant amount of intel from the documents and hard drives they swiped from the place.

[PeteRock]

Did anyone see that Steelers RB Rashard Mendenhall went all out on Twitter and is defending bin laden?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/nfl/05/03/rashard.mendenhall.osama.bin.laden.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a10&eref=sihp

He didn't go "all out" to defend bin Laden. He didn't really defend him at all. The main point of his posts is that we shouldn't be celebrating the death of a man, which isn't that crazy or stupid of an idea. However, Mendenhall is a [censured] idiot and needs to drop his twitter account. He's the worst kind of stupid, the kind that thinks he's educated. Remember he also chimed in to defend Adrian Peterson's remarks that the NFL is "modern day slavery". 

I think the issue many have isn't with his critique of celebrating death, but what he said next:  “What kind of person celebrates death? It’s amazing how people can HATE a man they have never even heard speak. We’ve only heard one side...”

 

Regardless of the point he tried to make, his subsequent comments are incredibly ignorant. 

[msteelers]

Regardless of the point he tried to make, his subsequent comments are incredibly ignorant. 

Agreed.

[Zekester]

to be fair though, the overwhelming majority of people you know are likely american.  bigotry is far worse in some countries, far better in others.  but it's not just an american thing.

capitalize that shit, you commie bastard 

[Purge]

I apologize, I have been really busy at work. The comment made was that one responsible for civilian deaths should be held accountable.

How many Iraqis died in both Gulf wars? How many were civilians? Responsibility isn't just due to direct input, it is also from lack of measures or preparedness. It's also for being concerned with profit margins over human life (45K US dead in 2009, attributed to no insurance for medical care!)

That is 5x the number of people who died in 9/11.

I recall reading reports indicating the barrier protecting New Orleans was only rated for a Class 4 hurricane, and they *knew* this and chose not to fix it even after Hurricane Andrew (IIRC). Responsibility didn't just lie on GWB (but on all levels of government), but that doesn't un-fuck the situation.

if one holds true the statement made above, there would certainly be a lot more people put up against a wall and shot for their incompetence, ignorance, and greed.

You gonna be the one to pull the trigger?

I can't think of one justice system on the face of the planet that has only one type of sentencing.

From the article...

In the old days, of course, "justice" meant due process, a court, a hearing, a defence, a trial.

What utter bullshit. In what some consider "the old days", justice meant an accusation, a rope and a tree. In what others consider "the old days", justice meant a pistol duel at dawn for an insult. And of course in some cultures justice is throwing stones at a woman until she dies for having sex with a man, while in other cultures that is the definition of injustice. Justice isn't some absolute and throwing around a standard like this is simplistic and intentionally naive.

And relativism sucks, Purge.

I think the importance of justice is the context it is being brought up in. When one "liberates" Iraq with an ideal - when a country wages war in Vietnam to prevent the spread of a differing ideal, and hold above all a "presumed innocent until reasonably proven guilty" then you go an black-ops a civilian who is accused of a mass murder, there isn't military honor in that. There were no battle lines drawn, and we certainly didn't see any further al-Qaeda attacks continuing on the North American populace (unless I missed it, sorry).

Practice what you preach, right? Saddam was hung after a trial. Due diligence was done.

There *WAS* shady dealings with Osama - his death guarantees the safety of those in the US that ultimately helped further his cause. I don't think he could have negotiated a stay of execution, but there is a key element here - his death means more than just the end of a villain - it was also an act of silencing him.

There is good in that, certainly. Whether his information is good or not, and whether it would have created a potential for further attacks to "liberate" him or his call for further jihad. It also ties up loose ends.

[cheeba]

There *WAS* shady dealings with Osama - his death guarantees the safety of those in the US that ultimately helped further his cause. I don't think he could have negotiated a stay of execution, but there is a key element here - his death means more than just the end of a villain - it was also an act of silencing him.

[hepcat]

conspiracy theory, rant against past american military actions, etc.

Honestly purge, i'm surprised at you.  you seem hell bent on trying to depict the US as some evil empire.  insinuating our government was in cahoots with bin Laden and killed him in an attempt to stop him from telling the world?  summarizing the vietnam war as a simple attempt to "stop the spread of an ideal"?  you come across as someone with an axe to grind at this point.  every country on earth can be viewed as corrupt and evil if you pick and choose only the nuggets of history that support your desired outcome.  i could view canada's past treatment of its aboriginal population and draw the conclusion that Canada is nothing but a bigoted nation that tramples over the rights of minorities using that same method. 

[Harkonis]

conspiracy theory, rant against past american military actions, etc.

Canada is nothing but a bigoted nation that tramples over the rights of minorities using that same method. 

they aren't?   

[Caine]

conspiracy theory, rant against past american military actions, etc.

Canada is nothing but a bigoted nation that tramples over the rights of minorities using that same method. 

ah, what difference does that make?


a minority in canada is what, 5 people?

[morlac]

I think the importance of justice is the context it is being brought up in. When one "liberates" Iraq with an ideal - when a country wages war in Vietnam to prevent the spread of a differing ideal, and hold above all a "presumed innocent until reasonably proven guilty" then you go an black-ops a civilian who is accused of a mass murder, there isn't military honor in that. There were no battle lines drawn, and we certainly didn't see any further al-Qaeda attacks continuing on the North American populace (unless I missed it, sorry).

 

Where to begin?  What black-ops operation are you referring to?  This was a planned military strike executed by Navy Seals.  Nothing black-ops about it.  What civilian are you referring to?  Bin Laden was not a civilian.  He was a military comabtant.  Him and his organization delcared war on America and it's allies and followed through by attacking civilians abroad and on our soil.  Accused of Mass murder?  Don't tell me your one of those nut jobs who think the US brought down the towers?  No battle lines drawn?  I think it is safe to say that the glove was thrown down when over 3,000 innocent people lost their lives.  Of course according to you it's no big deal because we have millions more in America.  Did not see any further attacks?  Really?  Are you that ignorant?


Here's a list of just the two years following 911:
http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/033104.pdf

Granted there have been no SUCCESFUL attempts on US soil since then but numerous plots have been thwarted.

[hepcat]

My suspicion is that Purge has been replaced with a clone, or perhaps an evil twin. At the very least he's being controlled by some form of mind ray.  In any case, I hope he's able to escape and access a computer to let us know he's okay!